There’s More for Your Marriage With Sean & Lanette Reed | Dave and Ashley Willis

Hello and welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And you guys, we have some dear friends in the studio, Sean and Lynette Reed. We love them. You guys love them. They have so much going on. Dave's gonna tell you more about them just in case this is the first time you're hearing from them. But you cannot wait to hear this conversation. And be sure to listen until the very end.

Yes, yes. Because I'm telling you, the WISD that you're gonna hear from them on this episode, no matter what season of marriage you're in, I think is potentially life changing. But particularly if you are nearing the empty nest or new to the empty nest, this could be a life changing conversation. So we're so honored to welcome our friends, Sean and Lynette Reed. They're a huge part of the exomarriage family. Lynette leads our Mediator Institute, which is the front line of helping you guys get the help that you need. And if you want more information about mediation, xomarriage.com help, you can go there. You want to become a mediator, you can go to xomediator.com and it's a wonderful program. Sean and Lynette both are authors. They host the podcast Marriage in Transition. They're beloved Exo Marriage conference speakers. I could just go on and on because, you know, they've got a really impressive resume, accomplished a lot to look as young as they. They look. But we love you guys and it's going to be a great conversation, so let's dive in. Friends, you are in for a treat today. Our dear friends Sean and Lynette Reed are with us. They are so much fun. They bring so much life and joy and wisdom to this ministry here at Exo Marriage. And plus, we just love hanging out with them. And so we were honored that they're joining us here to talk about the Empty nest season. We've been in a great series, the Seasons of Marriage, and they are the resident experts because they are fresh, new, new, new empty nesters.

Yep, yep.

And I know what you're thinking. They look so young and refreshed and all that stuff.

She looks so young.

Well, fresh. And they. And they are. But part of it is they've aged like 10 years in reverse because they're empty nesters now. They don't have. They don't have anybody, anybody in the house. Like, yeah, you know, so while I am aging rapidly because we still have A seven year old and I, and we love them.

God bless you.

But there's a lot going on now. We are so excited to talk to you guys because first off, we love talking to you. But number two, we get a lot of messages from folks who are entering.

Into this season or in the season.

In the season.

And not loving it.

And not loving it. Right. And it should be like the empty nest. Season should be just a joyful time in your marriage. Now, every season has unique challenges, unique blessings, but a lot of couples, they're just really struggling in the empty nest because their whole life was about the kids and now they don't know who they are as husband and wife without them. And so we want to give hope to those who might be struggling, but also we want to help celebrate those who are entering into this season, all the good and freedom that comes with it. So celebrate all that hard work. So welcome first off.

Well, thank you. You know, we're here to help people run around the house naked.

Yes, that's right.

Naked season is what?

Oh, I can't wait.

Naked and healthy and naked. Naked Marriage podcast. We're going to talk about getting naked.

I can't wait. I'm telling you, I'm going to start naked even before we're empty nesters.

That's right.

That'll shame the kids to leave.

Just feed it along, speed along.

That's actually a really great idea.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, then they'll need trauma therapy.

Yeah.

I was about to say you might have to, you know, support them financially for therapy, but.

Yeah, that's cool.

Well, I'll ease them into it. I'll just do like a, like a man thong, partial naked for a while. Like, so.

I don't know. That may actually be worse, bro.

You may need therapy.

I was gonna say, I don't know. Naked and alone.

I will say naked alone. No, okay, I'll say this. You can edit this out, too. Again, nothing to do with the topic. So I, I, I got dressed up for this one costume.

You look at me like you have.

No idea what I'm gonna say.

You're terrified.

Dave, you wore a thong.

I've never worn a thong.

Please don't ever say this again.

No, I've never. Oh, my gosh.

But hey, but if you wear a thong, guys, no problem. That's, that's right. That's your thing.

If that's you now, I will say you got you some of them European.

Sweetos on the thong thing. You feel free to edit any of this out. I Was once a church. You were there. There was a baptism, you guys.

Oh, my God.

Touching moment. I got baptized in a white robe. White baptism robe. We said, get dressed underneath it. He starts getting out. The pastor's getting right behind him. The whole church can look. The only thing the dude has on underneath his white baptism road.

White thong.

Thong is a thong.

You could see cheeks.

That boy said, listen, wash me clean.

Wash me clean.

Wash me thoroughly.

Yeah.

That there may be no sin left.

He was nothing like you guys.

It was one of those things, though, where you just didn't know if it was okay to laugh or if you were sad for him or embarrassed.

I would have been embarrassed for him.

I was embarrassed. I really. Yeah. I mean, nobody, like, laughed out loud, thank God.

Yeah, that's right.

He left it behind.

He. He's a new creation. He's a new. He's a new creation. Oh, man.

Oh, we'll never forget that.

Okay, I gave the disclaimer that, you know, I'm not even going to tell the story I was going to tell until we just won't do it because.

What story? That was not the story.

That wasn't the story. What is the story?

That it gets worse.

What?

A costume. I heard costume.

Oh, yeah.

A Halloween costume is what you said. And then I was like, well, okay, you gotta tell us now.

So Ashley and I got invited to this, this, this costume party one time for some friends who were celebrating their anniversary. And they said you had. And that you were assigned what you had to pick. It was very specific. And so we chose 80s rockers. Okay. And so in putting together From Amazon, the 80s rockers get. The stuff that I was ordering was like, fishnet, like your best shirts because. Oh, for the shirt. Well, what that did is it put me on some kind of marketing algorithm where apparently the Amazon, the very, like, flamboyant gay community order some of these same things. And so for the longest time, I started getting targeted marketing for stuff like man thongs and like, all, like, it was everywhere.

There's a wide variation Facebook. I didn't know.

I started getting invited to, to like, like gay cruises, like, popping up on my Facebook. And I. I just ordered. Oh, you ordered this?

And a crush.

You might also like these things. And it was some stuff I didn't know, like, existed. I'm like, I didn't want any of this.

Oh, my God. How long did it take for the algorithm?

Eventually, you know, it. It took a while to clear out because I guess the queue, when you order something fishnet, it Is a dude. It. It takes it a while for them get your straight car back. Yeah.

I will make sure that in the future, in our investing season, that we won't.

Yeah.

Won't be searching for them.

But we look. But the costumes were great.

I will say. All right.

They are great. They do. Amazon has.

You can edit all.

I'm not even sure why we had.

This, but it has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

If you order a fishnet, mesh or fish. No, no.

But it's nester.

Sure.

Bring it back. You can walk around with.

You'll keep it in dust.

That is true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's not my thing. I just want to be clear. That's not my thing.

That's not my.

I was just trying to be festive.

You like to have a good costume. So there you go.

All right.

And it was good. Okay. All right.

Nothing to do with empty nesting. Unless one. Let's. Here, let's do a segue. Naked time can also be costume time.

That's right.

You're not going to weird your kids out.

That's right.

You go get your cowboy in your.

Fishnet top or whatever. Why do I say fishnet? Is that the same thing as mesh? Kind of.

I think. Yeah.

Mesh.

I think it was mesh that I was looking for.

Yes.

But then other stuff started popping up and it was just.

There's a lot out there. That's all we have to say about that.

But we want to bring. We want to bring this back. Those who are still with us, first off, thank you. We want to thank you for still being here. And they're the faithful. You are the faithful. And. And your reward for sticking around is you're about to get some wisdom.

That's right.

From the reads. Some. Some deep, deep wisdom. So, guys, what are you learning in this season? What are you learning as empty nesters? How about this? What do you wish you could go back and have told yourself?

Yes.

As those first ones started to launch, what would you have done? The same. What would you have done differently?

Okay. So my answer to that would be, I wish we would have paused each time that our children went out. So we actually made time to grieve as we dropped because ours went to college. So basically it was a whole drop them off process kind of crown away home. It kind of. The tears lessened as they. As you got to the third one.

Sure.

We have three children and so you grieve differently for all of them, but you kind of got a grip on it after a while. But I wish we would have paused to reevaluate. I think like five to ten years down the road. I think Lynette and I, we were already kind of in this rhythm of having weekly talks, which helped us a lot. And what we realized with most of the couples that are empty nesting, they don't even have like a weekly time, 45 minutes just to talk about what the vision is for the week, let alone five years down the road, 10 years down the road. The reason why I say this is because, like, our parents are aging, you know, and so as they're aging, we started counting the years. Like if my dad lived, if her mom lived, my mom lived to be 90. That's 15 years from now, right. Will they make that? If they get that much time, how often are we visiting them? Right. And if we're only going once a year, that means I'm going to see them in person 15 more times. Is that enough for me? Is that enough for you? Like, so we had to not just think about the kids. We had to think about the rest of family. The reason that this is so significant for us is because we started realizing even our money needed to be seen differently. We're at a point in our lives where we're comfortable, we're safe financially, it's great. But what does money mean at this stage in our lives when you think five to 10 years out, we're not sitting around waiting for retirement to then all of a sudden start living. But every dime that we has should facilit a dream that we desire, right? So how do you make the money matter in this season and maximize this moment with our kids and our parents? And so for us, there was this re evaluating, like, okay, what can we do? How often can we see the family? How do we move the money around to see those key members of the family? How do we move the money around to where I'm enjoying with my wife and kids precious memories that we are creating while they're trying to begin family. So for us, we thought about the calendar year a little bit differently. It became a memory making machine. And our money is the fuel that's actually achieving that in and so that stopping to. I love yearly vision plans because we need it. But at some point, if you don't do this, you're going to forget about a whole lot of things that you should be doing now because you can and delaying some things that you need to put off later because your knees are going to be able to handle it, you know, later on. You know what I'm saying that's.

Yes. Yeah, I totally get that.

And time goes by so fast. And so, I mean, when you've got kids, everything about your world is them. Right. And so when you plan, you're planning with them in mind. You're planning with, oh, where we're going to go next year as a family. You know, grocery is about, you know, the now. And so, you know, while we were in it, we never really gave much thought past their, you know, four years of college. Right. And so when that time came, it really became, well, what do we want to do now that the kids are gone? And, you know, either they're in college or they're out of college. It really became. We don't have to plan our lives around them.

Right.

And so it was, like, totally changed.

Totally different. Totally different. So now we started thinking about things that we wanted to do individually, things that we wanted to do together. And so it really. For me, it was very hard to think that way. Right. Because I am a. I'm a family person. I want the. I want the kids with me. I want them at dinner. And so it was really. It took me a couple of weeks to kind of get an idea as to what are the types of things that I want to do right now.

Yeah. So there was a level of, like, self discovery.

Yeah.

For me, it was dreaming forward. For Lynette, it was literally, what, who am I now? And what is it that I'm passionate about?

Being a mama.

I know, right?

I've heard that's a big. Especially for moms. And I'm sure there's a little bit of a dad identity crisis as well, but you hear more of it from the mothers. Why do you think that is?

Well, I think we're nurturers, and just because they graduate doesn't mean we stop being a nurturer. Right, Right. And so we have a habit of having to nurture something. That's why most of us get dogs, like, when the kids go away. That's why we end up, you know, getting plants or something that we can kind of put our attention to, because we just. I mean, we've been nurturers either for 18, 24 years or whatever. And so we need to still do that. You don't have to stop. So I think we just have this desire to see something in its infancy and grow or even just give our attention to, because, I mean, we've just. We have a habit of doing it. And so we don't necessarily have to stop. We just have to shift what we're nurturing.

Yeah.

And the biggest shift for us was we made a decision to say, okay, we're now we're your parents by DNA, but at this point you're going to run your own life. We raised you, we did everything we could within 18ish years. And so now you're going to make your own life choices and we're going to become advisors, right?

Yes.

So life coaches, we'll give you, we'll give you life coaching advice, we'll give you wisdom here, there. If you ask me, I'll give you answers. But I'm not ashamed of you.

Right.

Your decisions are not a reflection on my failure.

Right.

You're an adult.

You're an adult. So this frees us of this enmeshment of living vicariously through our kids.

Man, that's good. That is, that is gold.

But let me tell you, Sean, your like, I agree with you guys 100%. But don't you find in the work that we do with marriages, that is not the road people take at all?

Oh, no.

And why do you think that is? I know I keep asking that. Why? Because I do feel like it hasn't always been that way. But you see more and more where kids don't want to grow up. This whole, even the term adulting is a negative. Where when I was, and I know we're all close in age, when I was getting ready to graduate high school and go to college, and then from college into marriage and doing a job, I couldn't wait.

I couldn't wait. I was getting, getting my driver's license. It was a badge of honor. Yeah. Then. I know, I know some, some of my family members, they're like 20 and still don't have IDs.

Yeah.

You know, don't have a driver.

Get her driver's license. So she was like 19, 20 years old.

Yeah.

And that was because she had to.

Right. Because we didn't need her.

Yes.

Yeah.

We're not taking you into the Cats Don't Marry.

Like they're scared of it.

It's very typical these days.

Our kids, you know, we, they weren't excited about the stuff that we were all excited about.

I think, I think there was this level of we, you know, 70s, 80s babies were kind of, I mean, our parents were working, they were on the grind. So we were kind of on our own to a degree. And in some ways that was great for us because it developed a level of independence and get out there, be strong, tough. And I think our kids benefited from A cushiony lifestyle, you know, and so it gives them that delay. They don't want to. You know, it's kind of like there's not enough needles in the nest to get them out. But at some point, you can't, as the parent, I mean, make that sucker more cushiony, you know, you. The goal should be to see them get out of the house. And that then becomes the crowning achievement. Okay, we've done what we were supposed to do. Now I'm going to trust God with the rest of their journey. I think a part of the problem with parenting is we think that there is part of our identity is wrapped up in the success of our children. And so we. We hold their actions so close to our hearts, and. And if we don't. Personally, most people that I know, I'm Even in my own life, I have a struggle with shame. I have a struggle with guilt that I'm constantly battling. That is the crux of the spiritual warfare that I live within my life is how to deal with shame in a healthy way to where you. You're. You're free. And so, like, it gets even deeper when you have this strong love for this human being, you know, or human beings you brought into the world, and you're looking at every one of their decisions, and you're wanting it to look like a win. And if they continue to go down what seems to be a dangerous path, there's this part that you have to let go that is a part of the empty nesting process, is release them. And if you don't, you're crippling them.

Right?

They don't. They don't become who they are until they're strong enough to stand on their own. And they're going to make some mistakes, and you have to. Eventually they'll come back around. And. And so God said, hey, you train them up in a way they should go. You plant those seeds when they get old, they won't depart from it. It didn't mean, though, that they're going to live this perfect little life. And if we look back at our stories, I mean, we made some mistakes, but we're here, and we're okay. So that. That's. That's a part of it. And then once that can happen, once you begin to, like, it's almost like if your hand, it is. It represents, like the next season. If your hand is this clenched fist, and part of what's in that hand is your kid's hand, and you're gripping that thing and you don't let it go. What will happen is you're supposed to cleave more tightly to your spouse's open hand and you two are supposed to grab God's hand and say, okay, where are we supposed to transition to next? What's our next? Because there's more to life than the last 18, 20 years that you've had and you now have to discover what that is.

That's good.

Yeah, it's so true. And I think too, you know, a lot of couples when they're launching their kids, they don't want them to launch like, like what we were talking about, like to be on their own so quickly and they try to slow that down because then they have to actually face maybe some marriage issues that have been going unknown or they've been ignoring for a while because that busyness let them kind of just keep on putting it on the back burner and all of a sudden it's like front and center.

I can't recall the percentage, but I did recall reading an article where there was an extremely high number of couples who get divorced when their children go off to college.

Yeah, we're seeing that.

But then the ramifications of that on the child side are so devastating because now, especially if a child is away to college now they don't. Their self identity is just in question and they're struggling being away from home because they need to be in the, you know, they want to be at home with their parents and they're separated and so they're left to kind of think these thoughts by themselves. And so I, I definitely agree with Sean and I love the analogy of the holding having a hand so tight with your child to where you forget or you don't focus on your spouse. And then when you're left looking at them, you're just kind of like, well, I don't have any interest. I don't know who you are anymore.

Yeah.

And so I will say empty nesting gives you the ability to go through this self discovery of who they are now. And that's the beautiful thing about just an individual is they're not going to be the same. So there is a constant chase of figuring out who they are, what they like now. But it can be hard if you're not looking forward to the chase or if you don't like who you are. That's right, yes.

And don't you see that a lot with the, with that identity crisis? Sometimes I feel like that's when we can sometimes do unhealthy things and search for who we are.

In unhealthy places, I was gonna tap into right there. That's where marriage boredom kicks in. And a lot of times the driving force behind adultery for people, it's not justifying it, but a lot of the driving force behind it is this idea of a new adventure, a spark of some sort. You know, you get an emotional attachment to somebody because they're making you feel adventurous or something like that, and they end up falling into something that destroys their life or their marriage. And so to that, you can find that same adventure, that same spark within your spouse. And in fact, it's easier and it's less, you know, costly. At the end of the day, it's.

Not as risky, you know what I mean?

To really just find their hearts. And so we were talking about something the other day, my wife and I, we were talking about God and knowing God, right? And what was so unique about this thought was, you know, how, like, you can read the Bible for years, and then all of a sudden you go back to the same passage and you read that thing again, but you see it totally differently. I mean, it's just like. And you're just like, God, you're so good. And then the next year, you're like, God, you're so good. You're good. Or still, you know, and it's just because you just continue to fall in love with him. And you can continue to search for God until you see him face to face, and you still won't know all there is to know about him. What's cool about your spouse is that they're made in the image and likeness of God. And there are depths to their heart and personality that they haven't discovered. Neither have you.

You don't even know.

You don't even know. So you don't ever have to get bored within the marriage. But what the enemy does is he persuades us that there's nothing else there and the grass is greener somewhere else.

Yes.

And he's lying. The joy of empty nesting is you get to say, hey, well done. We. We've raised them. Let's send them out. And now let's celebrate.

Yeah.

And whatever. The dreams that. That exist between you guys. And if you don't have any, it's cool. You literally can take. I'm serious. Is all. Get out. You can take, literally, a whiteboard and some markers and just say, 10 years from now, who would you like to be? Not just, like, what would you like to have. Who would you like to be? Like, do you want to dance again? Do you want, like, literal dancing? Lynette and I, we're taking dance lessons.

Salsa lessons.

Oh, I want to see some salsa.

Not yet.

You know, not yet.

One day we're working progress.

Break it out.

But. But one of the things that got us was we went on a cruise. And on this cruise, like, there were like 80 year old people who were staying up later than we were on the cruise.

No, they're. They put.

Yeah, you hear me?

They put me to shame. They're like this 80 year old came up to me at breakfast. Cause we had connected with her like a lot on the ship. And so we just kept bumping into each other. So she was like, baby, did you.

Go to the club last night?

No, ma'.

Am.

I was asleep by 10.

And she was like, yeah, the club starts at 11:30. And so we hope to see you guys tonight. I was like, what in the world, 30, you know, I mean, that's.

Yeah.

So we get there to the club, and there they are. And then this one song comes on. You know, the band's playing like soul songs. And so some Stevie Wonders going, and isn't she lovely? You know, all that. And this couple jumps up and I mean, they're just the cutest little couple. And I mean, they're out there doing their thing. Lynette and I, we were sitting down and we just were like, let's get up. Let's dance. It hit us in a way to where I did theater, performing arts. Lynette, she loves to dance. We were like, why don't we dance anymore?

This is in us. Like, we need to take this to the next level. Yeah, I love it.

But it was like we forgot, but because we were so consumed with the day to day and raising kids.

Yeah. Football practice, band practice, basketball practice, grades, you know, getting them into college, filling out the paperwork. You know what I mean? Everything, Cleaning the house, all the routine, like literally just. It just sucked all the dream out. And so it was like seeing them inspired us to dream again. And so we literally traveled so much that we were like, okay, we can't really take lessons like everybody else, but we figured out a way to do a course online. You know what I mean? It started off with YouTube videos. We like this one couple, we ended up getting a course online. So we're in our living room, made a commitment 15, 20 minutes a day, sometimes 30.

And my calves hurt.

Workout.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Okay. So we did that in so many areas of our lives. Lynette started gardening again. You know, I started getting Naked and healthy again. You know what I'm saying? And so my point with all of that is, is if you all were to look at who you would like to become over the next five to 10 years, work your way backwards, and then begin to say, okay, how do we become that and hold each other accountable for the quality of life that we would like to have for as long as God gives us?

Yeah.

And when people begin to think like that, all of a sudden, it rekindles that fire. That's how you pursue each other in the beginning, and that's what's going to keep you. And after a while, you don't miss them little rugrats being out the house as much.

No.

No, you don't.

And it's not something you dread. I mean, you're. You're enjoying it.

Yeah, absolutely.

Loving it.

We love it when they come around.

Yeah, sure.

We let you know, we have family text message and we do family FaceTime, actually.

Yeah. Talk about that a little bit more because that is something that helped us a lot.

Yeah.

In the process of our kids moving out. She especially was at a point to where she was like, I need to know details. And the kids won't text back. They don't call as fast, so you're kind of left on the outside. And so kids, if you're listen and you got parents and you're tearing her.

The phone, text them back.

Just text them back.

Just type the word, the letter K. Yes, that's it.

Honor your father and mother. Right.

That's right.

Sometimes honoring them is as simple as texting back.

Yeah.

Honor somebody. You text them back.

That's all you need, man.

Like, I'm alive.

Yeah. Yeah.

So we started a weekly FaceTime. And, you know, we're not perfect at it, so we miss a week or two, but it gives us an opportunity to still come together. It almost takes the place of the family dinner.

Yes.

Right. Of sitting down together. Let me hear what's going on in your life. We talk about, you know, things that are going on in the world, helping them to process, you know, the right way. And so it's really, really great. We get to congratulate one another on certain things that they may be doing. Or we kind of say, you know, oh, sounds like you're kind of struggling in it. How can we kind of rally even though you're in a completely different state? What can we do to help you? So that way, especially during those adulting moments where it's, like, really hard for them, they don't feel like, they're alone.

That's huge.

But they also see mom and dad living their life.

Right.

That's right. Yeah.

Which I think brings a comfort to kids. I think that it's a beautiful thing. Like, even, I mean, gosh, my parents have been empty nesters for a long time, but when I see them doing something fun together and enjoying each other or laughing as their daughter, it makes me feel secure in their, like that they're having fun and they're enjoying their life together way beyond raising kids. And I can't imagine, even in that early emptiness period that really, I feel like that gives them even. It just reaffirms the foundation that you've already built, you know, in your family. And I think that sometimes parents, they underestimate that because their kids are still. They're still, you know, I know they're involved in their own lives and in college and such, but they still are paying attention and they can tell if mom and dad are doing well or if they're not.

Absolutely. And so thinking through. Okay, if you're the parent who. I'm gonna go the flip side of it. So the response we wanted from the kids was at least just show me you're alive. Give me a text when you arrive at your destination. Let me know if you're leaving late at night. I mean, we still do that. We have one of our children lives. One of our children, they live in New York. And so they're traveling subways and catching, you know, Ubers and all the rest of these things in New York, which.

Is a big deal.

That's hard. Very scary. That's real hard. So after a while we told her, like, look, we will pay for your Uber. We don't want you on the subway. Right? And she's tough. And she's like, I can do it. And I'm just like, it's not you, it's them.

It's them. There's some crazy stuff happening on New York subways right now.

You know what I mean? It's just been so bad. And so we, we negotiated that. And what was interesting for her, this is talking about how the kids respond for her. In her mind, she was like, but that's so expensive. And so she was almost like protective of our budget.

Right.

You know, and what I told her, I said, look here, this is why I make money.

Yeah. Yeah.

I said, this is our daughter, you.

Know, and you're not married yet.

Yeah.

You're still, you're still our responsibility. Right.

You know, so this is my joy. Let Me. Let me do what I do, too. And so we're. We're. We have an Uber fund, and anything that she needs, we just take care of that. My point with that is imagine if that was her being concerned about us over Uber money. Imagine what that looks like. If it was us romantically.

Right.

Passionate about one another, still in love with each other. So our kids are watching, and they are protective, and they do need that security of. Even though they're out of the house, they don't need to move back in to make you okay.

Exactly.

That's too heavy a weight to put on their.

They're not meant to have that burden.

You know what I'm saying?

Yes.

And that sabotages their future marriage.

It does.

That sabotages their. I mean, it just. And then the dysfunction continues.

Well, and you know, and I know we can't get into the details of this because we're going to have to close out pretty soon, but codependency. I think a lot of this goes back to parents having a codependent relationship with their son or daughter, and it being in place of, like, they're getting the emotional kind of support, and they're trying to have their emotional needs met by a child, which is really something that the spouse should be filling and they should be fulfilling for their spouse, and they don't. But if you live in that dynamic for long enough, it becomes so normal. And then all of a sudden, if that child goes off, I mean, it can create a huge rift in the family. And I just see that that's. That's been normalized in our culture.

Absolutely.

Like, we see so much more of that and the details.

We've personally.

We've had experience with it when we got married. Yeah, absolutely.

Painful.

So painful. And hard to recognize at first because when you're. Like I said, when you're in it, you don't even know, like, until you're somewhat out of it.

It's the way the family operates.

Yes.

And it's almost how. And it's even worse when it's like, oh, this is how you honor your father and mother. You do what they tell you.

Literal words coming from the mouth of people like that.

You know what I mean?

Like, you're not honoring me. This is what God tells you to do.

The only verse they know.

Yeah, exactly.

But I'm telling you because they literally. And it is a little bit about. It's about control.

I mean, to be honest, it's 100% control.

And they don't know what to do without it literally, and it will. And I just want to challenge people in this dynamic, even the parents who are in the emptiness season. Let this be your wake up call to recognize if you have that codependency. And it's hard to look at ourselves and say, yep, that's me. But I'm telling you, the best gift you can give your child is to let go of that and to start loving your spouse and rekindling that relationship. Because it's you and your mind. We convince ourselves, but it's for their good. They need me. And really, it's just that you're trying to control them.

Absolutely.

And that's not love, you guys. That's just not love. And I know this is hard to hear, but there's a lot of. I mean, it may even take a counselor to work through this, but I would just encourage you to do it sooner rather than later, because then when you are in that emptiness stage, or maybe you're at the beginning of it, it's gonna have much less heartache if you can recognize it now.

And what it becomes is eventually where it spills over into is the holidays.

Oh, yes.

And it becomes the in law nightmare. Because ultimately they know they're going to walk into this toxic, codependent experience. And it should be just gifts, it should just be dinner, it should be a great memory. And instead they. Especially if the kid gets healthy, because if they get healthy, they're going to begin to say, no more. And that's where it becomes like, oh, you're disrespecting me and all the things. So again, you can't see them growing up and leaving as failure. That is a crowning achievement.

Exactly.

That is a win. You have done your job. Release them to become all that God created and ordained for them to be. And then you have to find who you are now and. And fall all. Fall in love all over again. And that's the beauty of the name of this podcast. You could be naked and you can run around the house. Just make sure, make sure, make sure, you know, figure out whatever that is. But it's a beautiful thing to own this season. I'm gonna say this other thing too, because I got. I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be. I'm gonna. Instead of just being, you know, transparent, I'm gonna be vulnerable. So there's a difference between the two, right?

Yeah.

So vulnerability. So here it is. I don't like this gray hair. I'm gonna be honest, you know, I can rock with it.

I think he looks Amazing.

I think you look great, you know.

And I appreciate all distinguished, you know? Oh, yeah, distinguished.

That's what everybody says. Yeah.

So. So. But I just don't like it. There's something in me that just hasn't. I've heard all that from everybody. So from the outside I feel it, but it just doesn't penetrate as much because on the inside I'm just like. I remember when it was nice and you know, just dark. Black, get black.

But you're as buff as like a 25 year old bodybuilder. Does that not help?

Does that not know? Not at all. Not Enough, Sean, because 99 of the time my shirt's on during the day, so all I see is the gray.

So I'm gonna do. I'm gonna get you a fishnet shirt.

Oh, my God.

Full circle.

I so appreciate that. Just be careful when you search for.

It, you know, I know we're gonna.

Pay for it being said. It's like there's this. There's this like echo of. In the back of my brain of like, dude, you're aging and. And it can. It can cause you to look in the mirror and almost despise the. One of the greatest seasons you can have.

Absolutely. Yes, dude.

So what, you got a few wrinkles and. And things are, you know, sinking a little bit. And it ain't what it used to be. Stuff ain't as perky, but you're. You've survived, you've made it.

Yeah.

And so there's this battle to now say, how do I, within my own mind's eye, not despise this season because of what once was between you and your spouse at 18, 19, you know, 25 years old. And, And I remember there were some sessions where we were talking to some couples and they literally were fighting to try to get back the same type of sex, the same type of connection that they had at 19.

You can't compare the two.

And I'm like, dude, this is different. Your knees don't work the same as they did. Hers don't work the same as they did. So y' all gotta find old people's sex now. And it could be good. It could be wonderful.

Better though, because, you know, history you have.

That's what I'm saying.

But you've lived through it.

Should have so much more meaning when you tap into it spiritually. But what we're warring against, there's this despising this season.

Oh, yeah.

That causes it to taste bitter and it should be great. So there's Something in us that has to say, you know what, God, thank you for the years you've given me. Thank you for 18, 19, 20 years with these beautiful kids. Thank you for that season. Like, thank them for it. Like, for real. Be grateful and then say, but, God, I thank you that if I'm still breathing, there's still more for our marriage in the next season. We're going to transition forward.

I was thinking maturity and experience makes everything better.

Absolutely, yes.

It just makes everything better. Yet, like fine wine, it gives a.

Depth to and enriches the experience.

Yeah, guys, this.

This is amazing. We could drop for another hour.

I feel like this has been one of the most meaningful conversations we've had on the podcast. I love it since it started, and this is meaningful for us.

Yeah, we're learning.

We're learning. I'm soaking. I'm soaking all this up, guys. If you want more, this, this is just a taste of the wisdom of the Reeds. They have an incredible podcast here on the Xomarriage Podcast Network, and also an incredible book, both with the same title, Marriage in Transition. And if you find yourself in a transition of becoming an empty nester, or really any other major transition of life or marriage, their insights are going to be so helpful. Because the truth is, we're always in some kind of transition.

That's right.

And so it's relevant to you in every stage, but especially those who are entering into that empty nest or new to it. I'm telling you, they are living it and they're doing it right. And they're making me more excited than ever about that season coming. And, yeah, can't wait.

Definitely. Check it out. And we love you guys. Thank you all so much for being here.

Thank you.

And you guys, thank you all so much for tuning in to the Naked Marriage podcast. We will see you next time.