What a Naked Marriage Really Means | The Naked Marriage Podcast | Dave & Ashley Willis

Hello and welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis and on this podcast we uncover God's design for lifelong love. And you guys, we are taking it back to the roots of this podcast in today's episode.

That's right. What is a naked marriage? And this concept revolutionized our marriage. It's getting back to God's original design, to that first couple naked and unashamed. And I think grabbing a hold of what that really means could be transformative your marriage too. Before we dive into the episode, want to share a free resource? We love getting free resources into your hands and this is a really valuable one that won't cost you a penny. We have a 31 day marriage devotional, something you and your spouse can go through together. And it's an ebook form. You can download that with the link available in the show notes right here. You can also find it a lot of other great resources@xomarriage.com let's dive into today's episode. And they were both nake, the man and his wife. And we're not ashamed. Hey friends, welcome back. We're so excited about this episode because we're going to get back to the heart of what the naked marriage actually means. And maybe you've been following the podcast for many years, maybe you're new to us. Hey, we're just glad you're here. But the heart of what the naked marriage is is foundational to everything we do and say here. And so it's important to talk about it, to give you context. And because it's more than just a catchy title or name of a show, it really goes to the heart of what marriage is. And when you go back in scripture, which we believe the Bible is the greatest marriage book and the greatest book of all time, it's got God's instructions for all parts of life. The very first married couple in scripture, a couple named Adam and Eve. You can find their story in the first few chapters of Genesis. It talks about them being naked and unashamed. And that in a nutshell captures God's vision for marriage. It's naked, which isn't a picture only of physical nakedness, even though physical nakedness is awesome and the physical intimacy, the sexual aspect of a marriage is important and a beautiful gift. But that nakedness is more than that. Nakedness is a picture of transparency and vulnerability. It's saying, I have nothing to hide from you. There's nothing up my sleeve. I'm not wearing sleeves. You see me scars and all. And you Accept me as I am, and I do the same for you. And. And we can love each other, imperfections and all, with grace, with no shame, with joy, with pleasure. And that's the way God wants us to love each other. And if you can get to that place in your marriage, man, it's a. It's a breakthrough. You'll never want to go back to anything less.

It's so true. And, you know, I think we live in a culture that tells us it's impossible to have that kind of marriage. You know, I remember a dear friend of mine. She actually had, you know, she was married and then went through a pretty painful divorce and then didn't date anybody for a while, and then got back into the dating scene and fell in love with her husband. And so they were engaged to be married. And on her wedding day, her mother took her aside and she told her. She said, you know, make sure that you have a secret bank account that he doesn't know about, just in case, because you never really know someone. And so not even your husband. You can't even know your husband. And she's like, everybody has their secrets, and you need your secret, too.

And.

And in those years following this marriage, she said they really struggled. And she thinks. I mean, she's not blaming her mother here because obviously her mother was telling her this advice out of a hurt place as well. But she said she really took her mother's advice, not only when it came to money, but she said she always was holding back something, and really likely her husband was as well. And so they finally came to this crossroads where they were almost going to call it quits. And she said she realized that not being honest about everything, money, you know, about. About what's going on in their lives, you know, sharing that holding back anything was not really doing them any good. And so they really brought it back to the beginning, and they started having the naked marriage. And it wasn't an overnight thing, but through time, they started sharing everything and being honest and open and vulnerable about everything. And this was probably almost 20 years ago, and they're going really strong. So now she tells other people about it. Like, don't. Don't have any secrets. Even when the world's telling you, hey, you can never really trust anyone. You can never really know somebody. And I would tell you this. I mean, if you really feel like you can't really know your spouse or trust them on your wedding day, obviously don't marry that person. But don't assume going into it, like, oh. Because the World tells me I can't fully trust anybody. I always need to have, like, a little hidden bank account or something hidden from them just in case I need a quick exit. You know, don't believe the lies of this world and really make sure that you're being that kind of person that engages in a naked marriage as well. And so what does that mean? That means that we share in everything that we have, what Dave likes to refer to as the secret free guarantee. And you would say, well, Ashley, what if I just want something for myself? Like, why shouldn't I just have, you know, my stuff that only I know about or my things I keep with my friends? Like, what would you say to that person, honey? Because that is the world we live in.

Yeah. I would say, if your privacy is that important to you, don't get married, is what I would say. Really? Because the strongest couples I know, they value transparency and trust with their spouse much more than personal privacy. They really, really do. And it has to be that way. It has to be this mindset of, I want to share everything with you. And we've been through seasons where we didn't do that early in our marriage.

Yeah, we learned the hard way.

Yeah. Like, we're not saying this. Like, we got it right from day one. Like, we. There was a lot I struggled with as a young husband, just to be frank. Like, I grew up in a house full of all boys, so Ashley grew up in a house with just one sister. Like, I didn't know how to communicate to a woman. Like, I just. I was around these cavemen all day, and we were all very blunt and didn't consider things like tone. And then I had to learn the subtleties that Ashley was trying to communicate. When she would say things like, hey, we need to mow the yard. Now, I would take that very literally and think she means she wants to mow the yard together with me. That doesn't make any sense, but I guess that's how marriage works. We mow the yard together. So I wouldn't mow the yard. A few days would pass. She'd go, why isn't the yard mowed? I said, I thought you wanted to do it together. And she'd say, why would we do it together? And I said, exactly. So, young husbands, a few quick tips. When your wife says, we need to do something, it usually means you need to do it. No one told me this. This would have been gold for me. She's like, hey, we need to pick this up, or, we need to do. She's telling you nicely, you need to do it. If your wife says to you, hey, when you get a minute, could you do this? It doesn't mean when you get a minute, it means now. It means stop what you're doing right now and do this thing. I didn't know these things, but those were small mistakes. The bigger mistakes were in relation to not having a naked marriage. It was keeping secrets. And the biggest secret that I kept in those early years is I was battling an on again, off again secret addiction to pornography. Part of the reason why we talk so much about pornography on this podcast is because it's rampant. We know many, many of our listeners are tied up in it right now. Maybe you've believed a lie that it's harmless, that it's just entertainment, or maybe you've believed a lie that, well, it's unforgivable. I mean, Satan will use whatever lie to keep you stuck. But I was stuck in it, and I kept it a secret. And then when it came out, it was a really messy process. But, you know, Ashley walked with me through that. We've talked a lot about it. We've had full episodes on that. And once it came out, once we really worked through that, and I understood the freedom of being able to have now a naked marriage. When before I was keeping certain things hidden, it was. It was so liberating. And, you know, and Ashley, she. She had things as well. I mean, she kept an internal battle with anxiety and depression hidden from me for a while as well. You know, when that came out, it was the same process. You know, it has less power over you. The moment you bring it out into the open, the more you share that burden with your spouse, the moment you share that burden with your spouse, it loses. It starts to lose power over you because you can now face it together.

It's so true. And, you know, I heard Dr. John Deloney, who we've had on this podcast before, if you're looking for a great podcast about all kinds of things with mental health and relational health, go listen. But I heard him say, and I love this, he said, the conversation that you're afraid to have is the one you need to have the most. And I thought, man, that is so true, especially when it comes to marriage. And I know for both of us, you were so afraid, even though you wanted to tell me about the porn addiction and you wanted to be free from it, you were so afraid of what I would think. And in the same way, I was so afraid of what you would think about me telling you of these thoughts that even scared me, I thought they would scare you even more because I was having such dark thoughts and was just my anxiety and my panic attacks were just increasing, you know, by the day. And let me tell you though, once you have that scary conversation and you don't just willy nilly have this, like, you need to prayerfully consider what you want to say. I would even encourage you to journal about it. I know when I'm working with counselees, I'm a big fan of what I call raw journaling, where you just really get it out on paper, which makes it a little less scary. And then I would even encourage somebody by themselves, Read it aloud, read it aloud, read those scary things aloud. And then if it's something like, if it's a journal about a conversation about what you want to say to your spouse, you know, read it aloud, look at it, what your raw emotion is, but then go through and edit it and think about, how can I say this in the most loving but truthful way possible? Because that's how they're gonna actually lean in and listen. Not just raw, like unleashing word vomit onto your spouse. And even if you're justified in like being angry about a sin issue, it's still not good to just unleash on them.

Right? You have to speak the truth in love.

Exactly.

I mean, so if you speak the truth to your spouse unfiltered, without love, you might be technically correct, but you're still wrong because of the heart behind it. If we're not speaking with love to one another, we, we're really missing the point. And even the truth can be wounding if it's spoken with animosity, with hate, with sarcasm, with any of those things. So don't lie to your spouse. You gotta be honest. Sometimes you have to have difficult conversations, certainly. But even in those moments, you do it with mutual respect. You say, we're on the same team. We're gonna win together or we're gonna lose together. So how do we do this together? In a way that builds each other up. And, and for those of you who have kids, modeling that kind of communication with your in front of your children, man, that is, that's powerful because dads. Let me talk to you for a second. The way you talk to your wife, you're teaching your sons how to talk to women, you're teaching your daughters what they should expect from men someday. And we need to carry that responsibility with sacredness and with weight. Because, man, that's, that's a lot. So we do it first and foremost because our spouse is, needs and deserves us to speak with respect, but also because generations are at stake with the example that we're setting. And we need to set the right example. And when we blow it, and we're all going to blow it, sometimes admit it, seek forgiveness, humble yourself, say, I'm sorry, I was wrong. Please forgive me. And that, that goes a long way.

It really does. And it's so true. I'm glad you said, listen, we're not. We're not all going to get this right 100% of the time, because we're human beings and that's okay. I mean, perfection's not the goal, but progress is. And owning up to what we did wrong is a huge part of the naked marriage. Because I think so many times we find ourselves at a crossroads of maybe having a lot of misunderstanding, a lot of fighting, and maybe even, you know, building resentment in marriage. Because we're assuming all the time we know what our spouse is thinking and we're not voicing it, and then they're doing the same to us. And so you're having these fights over things that haven't even been out in the open, so you don't even know what it is you're even fighting over half the time. And we used to find ourselves in these arguments, and we're not like big fighters, neither one of us. Like, we're really recovering people pleasers and don't really necessarily love conflict, which that in and of itself can be a problem as well. Like, just stuffing it down all the time doesn't help anybody either. And so we've had to learn that. But I remember we would sometimes get into these little arguments and we would find ourselves, you know, kind of in the heat of it being like. Well, I do agree with that, actually. I think I'm actually saying the same thing.

Yeah, we'd be saying the same thing, but still arguing somehow. And I'm like, this is just madness. This is. Yeah. So you gotta believe the best in your spouse. You have to have an attitude of gratitude for your spouse. Because I think a lot of times when couples get into these negative mindsets and shifts, it doesn't happen all at once. It's usually just subtle little things, little digs, little grudges that don't get forgiven or dealt with. And every day you need to wake up and hit reset and start the day with gratitude. Lord, thank youk for my spouse. I am so thankful for her, for him. Help me to be the husband or wife they Deserve. And instead of having an agenda of things you want your spouse to do for you, say, lord, how can I serve them today? How can I derive joy from bringing them joy? How can I have that kind of attitude? And how can I, like, help bring out the best in them? And how can I have their back? And Ashley's had my back in so many ways. Some ways are like. Well, I'll give you an example. This is a silly one, but this.

Okay. I have no idea what he's gonna say.

Well, I've probably shared this before, but it's embarrassing. And if something embarrassing happens to me, instead of hiding it, I like to tell everybody. So we're in bed one night, and I go to sleep first. Cause I'm old.

And he's really not that old.

Tired.

He's just wise.

I do look significantly older than you. It's becoming more profound. You're looking more like a trophy. W. I look like an old oil tycoon or something, except I don't have any money, so it's like the worst kind of oil tycoon. A broke one.

Wow.

But anyway, I'm very thankful you're my wife. Not just because you're beautiful, but because you're awesome. But we were laying in bed one night. I was trying to go to sleep, and Ashley rolls over to my side of the bed, and she starts rubbing me. And I'm thinking, oh, maybe it's not bedtime. You know? Like, I'm thinking, my mind is hoping that this means one thing. It's not what it meant. So she starts rubbing my chest. But it wasn't like a romantic rub. It was kind of aggressive and clinical. Yeah. She was poking and kind of squeezing me weird. And finally I'm like, what are you doing? And she said, you know, men can get breast cancer too. I was getting a man boob exam.

Yep.

In bed. Instead of.

Because I love you.

Instead of being seduced, I was being given a mammogram for men. A mammogram?

A mammogram.

Okay. And I'd never felt less masculine in my life, it turns out. I guess I didn't have a lump.

You passed the test. Well, I think I thought I felt something. I originally was just. I think. I think I was gonna create a moment.

She rubs on me a lot. And it's not like I'm hoping it's gonna be sexual. And it rarely is. It's usually.

That is not true.

Well, a lot of times you're caring for me. This is a compliment. You're caring for me. She's always examining me. She's always looking at my skin. Like, was that spot there before? Was this. This is why women live longer. One of the reasons is they'll actually notice things wrong with their body and go see a doctor. The guys will just have a bleeding, cancerous Something oozing from them. They're like, it's fine. It's fine. I'll just. You know, I'll put some duct tape on it. And so I don't really notice these things. But she's like, was this bump here? Was this mole raised there? And I'm thinking, I don't know. I don't know. But she cares, and I love that she cares so much, is what I'm saying. She's looking out for me. I try to look out for her in different ways. And you just. You need to do that for each other. You're like, I want to help you see your blind spots. Not in a way to, like, criticize you, but in a way to protect you. Like, I want to just have your back all the time.

Yes.

You're not getting male breast cancer on my watch, you know, like, I've got your back.

Hey, you get my back, too. He makes sure I don't. He makes sure I don't run out of gas, because I usually.

Cause your phone is charged.

Yeah. And my phone is charged. All devices.

If I die in an accident, someone please quickly call Ashley, because her phone will die very soon after that because she doesn't plug it in.

Like, I'm not alone. Our kids are the same way.

My kids are the same. My whole family. Their phone will be dead within 30 minutes once I die. So somebody check on them, because they never plug anything in. And I just.

You do?

I do. You do. It's my way to serve. I used to complain about it, and now it's just like, you know what? I get to serve this world.

You take pride in it.

I get to.

But, you know, I will say this, too, even almost 25 years later, because we'll celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary this year in May, which I just can't believe it. Like, I. It's just crazy.

That's a big one.

It's crazy. Like, it's nuts. We kind of. We got married really young, so I feel like we kind of grew up together in a way.

We were 12.

We were.

No, but in Kentucky, where you grew up, that's normal.

That is normal.

So it was cultural, but not for us.

No, no, no, no. But I will say Though I have some relatives where that actually happened.

That's what I mean. See, it's funny.

It does go way back. It does go way back.

It is.

But that wasn't us. But we did get married fairly young. I was still in school, and Dave, literally, he graduated one Saturday. We got married the next Saturday, and I still had, like, a year, year and a half of school left.

Yeah.

So we were so broke. We were so broke and so clueless.

Rich in love.

Clueless. I mean, totally clueless in pretty much every way. But we found our way with God's help and with really good mentors in our life. And also sometimes just learning the hard way. Like, we shared on this podcast many times, and we'll continue to do so. But one thing that Dave, really. I feel like you've done this from the beginning in your own way, in different ways. It's looked different ways, but something that you do pretty consistently is. He knows how much I love flowers. Like, I love flowers. I know some of you watching and listening to this are like, what a waste. They die. Like, why would you do that? And I. To me, I just love being outdoors. I'm very much an outdoorsy person. Stargazer lilies are my favorite flower. And for some people that just. You think funeral, like, you smell that beautiful smell and you just think somebody died. Well, I think, no, this is living. Like, this is God's creation. And so Dave knows this about me. And pretty much on a weekly basis, you guys, it's gonna make some husbands feel bad, but it's okay. You've had other husbands share their loving things. They do. And you've been like, man, I need to step it up, but I just wanna brag on you. So almost weekly, I will come home and there will be a bouquet of flowers. And it just, like, makes me feel so loved. And I love that. That little thing he does, he keeps on doing it consistently, and it makes me feel seen. And it means more to me now than even in that first year of marriage, because you've seen some stuff like, you know, all my weirdness and my bad parts, my introvertedness that sometimes can get me in a spiral. And maybe it didn't already happen today, but it did. Like, I just have moments because I love people, but I can be way overstimulated, and I just need a moment. And Dave doesn't make me feel bad about it.

Well, I've got somebody.

He's like, let me take you out here.

Yeah. And that's part of marriage. That's Part of the naked marriage is you don't try to change those things in each other. You just learn. You learn to, like, get into rhythm with them and help them be their best. Like, if your spouse has needs different than yours, which they do, by the way. Oh, yeah. Instead of trying to change them, like, well, I don't need to sleep that much, or I don't need to eat that much, or I don't need to communicate that much, or I don't need sex that much, or whatever it might be to try to change them because they're somehow wrong. Because their need or drive is different than your own. Say, well, how can I help them have what they need to be at their best and find joy in doing it? Because God didn't send you your clone and thank him that he didn't. That would drive you crazy to learn to really celebrate each other's differences and learn from each other's perspective. God gave you two unique perspectives so that together, when you really listen to one another, you can see the world in three dimensions in a way that neither of you could do alone. And that's a gift.

It is. I mean, just a few of the ways that we're different. Cause we do have a lot of similarities, but we do have differences. Like, I'm very much, like, almost on an anal retentive level, a clean freak. Okay. I am. I've really had to. With four boys. I've had to, like, adjust. You know, this is just. I've had very unrealistic expectations. But I appreciate you said yes. I don't know if you guys.

I appreciate how clean you are.

Kind of obsessive.

But when you leave, even if it's just for like a couple days, if

I go speak or something for a

day or two, I never send you the pictures of how bad the house gets very quickly. And I would. We would live in it. Like, we would.

And you'd be fine.

And we would be fine. But we know it's important to you. So, like, before you get back, we, like, we gotta straighten up. We gotta straighten up. And it's still not to your standard, but it's.

It's very sweet.

Way better. Because, guys, listen. Romance in marriage, it really comes down to. There's a word you can switch out for romance. I think the word romance intimidates people, especially men. They're like, I don't. That means I have to, like, learn French and read French poetry. And I have to. I blame the Hallmark Channel sonnets and. Yeah, the Hallmark Channel.

Hallmark is my dad, you have to

be like that sexy lumberjack that can, you know, write poetry or whatever. And it's not a real dude. Romance in marriage, really take the word romance out and replace it with thoughtfulness, because that's really what it is. It's being thoughtful. It's thinking of your spouse. Like me buying flowers while I'm at the grocery store and walk past the flowers and think of Ashley. That's just thoughtfulness, you know, it's like you're on my mind. I know you would like this, and I did this because I knew you would like it. That's romance. It's thoughtfulness. It's the same thing. It isn't rocket science. It's just thinking about your spouse and saying, I want you to be a priority. I want you to know you're always on my mind. And with every decision I make, I think about you. And I'm thankful for you, and I'm grateful for you, and I want to celebrate you, and I want to show gratitude to you. And the more of that you can do, focusing on those things instead of focusing on, oh, he left his socks on the floor again, or, oh, she's not in the mood for sex again, or, you know, it's whatever the annoyance is for you to try to focus less on the annoyance and more on the positive.

Yeah. Serve each other. I know. So even though I'm the clean freak, I feel like you, out of respect for me, will do things and be a little cleaner than maybe you would want to be. Okay. And you're not, like, you're a freak because you want to be so clean. And in the same way, like, I. You'll notice. I mean, if you're watching this, I'm not a fidgeter. I'm just not. I don't know why. I mean, I have plenty of little idiosyncrasies, just like the next person. But Dave is like. And a lot of our boys are fidgeting, and he's a picker.

Yeah, I'm like. I have to, like, pick at my hands. It's like a. It's a weird tick.

Well, no, I mean, it might. It's just I think you always have, like, something going on in your mind, and I just think you're off thinking he's just brilliant and thinking about stuff all the time.

Well, I wouldn't call it that. But it's a very nice way to frame it.

There's a thing. I've looked this up because I'm a nerd and I want to know what's actually happening with all the picking and stuff. So I've done some research. He may have adhd. And it's.

Yeah, probably.

Which can be a superpower when honed in on the right things, because you can hyperpop focus on things that you actually care about. And he does that. But I was worried, as we age and stuff, we get drier. And so I'm like, I'm worried about his hands. So instead of just being annoyed, like, there he goes picking again. I bought some goat's milk lotion and was like, we're gonna put this lotion everywhere. And so instead I'm just like, do you need some lotion? And I'll be like, yep.

She takes action, and I. And I receive it.

And so you just have to have each other and not let it be a deal. Yeah.

There's a million things that make up a naked marriage, and we're gonna keep talking about all of them. So that's a broad overview. It really comes down to honesty, tr. Transparency, care. Care and intimacy on all levels. Physical, emotional, spiritual, which is what God designed your marriage to have. Sex is part of that. That's why we talk a lot about sex on this podcast, and we want to be a safe place to talk about it, because many of you have written us and said, this is the first place that I felt welcome to bring my questions and to have an open conversation about sex from a Christian perspective. And we just believe that God made sex. He made it for marriage. And as a married person, you should, by God's design, be having the best sex on the planet. But there are a lot of factors that can complicate that, and we want to be sensitive to those factors and help you navigate all of them. But this is a safe place for those questions. But the naked marriage is more than that, a lot more than just that. And so we want to help you connect emotionally, spiritually.

Right.

Every level. And so stay tuned, and we will get to all of it. You can also revisit the past episodes. We've had some amazing conversations in the past with other guests and sometimes just with us about what this really means. So we're going to jump ahead to the question today. As you hopefully know, we end every episode with one of your questions. We love your questions. You can send us a question that might end up on air by going to our Instagram page, Avandashley Willis, or by going to nakedmarriagepodcast.com Today's question is this. My husband has been having an affair. Oh, I'm so sorry. I want to fight for the marriage. And he says he does too. But he still reaches out to this other woman sometimes. What do I do? Man, that is, that is hard.

That is so hard.

And we have someone that we know very close to us, that is, that's walking through the spirit.

Walking through the spirit. Very similar.

And so this one hits close to home. First off, our prayers with anybody who is walking through the aftermath of an affair, which can just be devastating, but it doesn't have to be a death sentence for your marriage. And we've seen some really strong and thriving couples who've worked through this and they've rebuilt the trust. But as Jimmy Evans has so wisely said, trust is built in drops and it's lost in buckets. And so you build trust one drop at a time through consistency of behavior. But an affair dumps out a whole bucket load of trust all at once. And if he's continuing to reach out to this other woman, that is, even if it's not sexual in nature, that's a huge, huge infraction. And I would say an act of infidelity in itself. Infidelity doesn't just mean sexual affair like the word infidelity literally means broken fidelity, broken trust. So anything that you do to break your spouse's trust is by definition an act of infidelity. Now that word has come to mean in our vocabulary most of the time just, just an affair, a sexual affair. But there are many ways to break your spouse's trust. The sexual affair, of course, being probably the most egregious and intimate betrayal. But him just communicating with this woman is an act of infidelity. And he needs to see it that way. He needs to recognize that by choosing that to have any communication with her, he's by default choosing her instead of the marriage. And that, that has to be a no fly zone. Like that's if that's going to continue, then he is choosing to end the marriage. It's that serious.

It is. Because you're not going to be able to heal while she's still in the picture. It has to be a complete and total cutoff. Can't have any kind of access, not texting, not online and social media, not calling each other. I mean, there can be absolutely no communication. And you know, sadly, in the work that we do, we've walked through the aftermath of affair with many couples and the ones who make it are the ones where the spouse who had the affair feels completely repentant and wants to do whatever they can to win back their spouse's heart and their spouse's trust, and they completely repent. Turn the other way and cut off all communication. The ones that don't make it, there's still that little bit, that little bit of like, you know, well, maybe, you know, maybe that could be there. It just doesn't. It does not work if there's any inch that you're giving to the enemy, really. Cause it's the enemy who is at work here when there's infidelity. And so you've got to completely turn your heart towards God number one, but turn your heart towards your spouse and cut this off. And here's the really messy part of dealing with the aftermath of an affair and is there's a grieving process for the spouse that had the affair, and that is so hard for the spouse who was wronged to walk through. You know, I see this a lot in the counseling space, and I encourage the spouse who was wronged to still, you know, bring. Bring that to Jesus. Surrender that fully. But no, it's okay if you feel upset about that. I mean, you're going to feel anger, you're going to feel disgust. I mean, all these things. It's going to cover a wide spectrum of emotions. But you can't really keep on holding this over your spouse's head. But what you can do is have boundaries. And I would make a very firm boundary that in order to move forward, you cannot have any contact with this woman. You also need to get healing in the context of community. One of the ministry groups that we've seen a lot of our counselees have success in kind of getting through the aftermath of an affair and really restoring their marriage is working with a ministry called affairrecovery.com. what I love about affairrecovery.com is it's run by people who've been there. And so these are people who know what it's like to walk through the aftermath of an affair and all the things that come with that. And what they do is they offer not only resources, but they offer groups for both the person who was involved in an affair and for the spouse who was wronged. And they also offer groups for you as a couple. And then I think several of these, they last for a while and really walk through this with you. It will take time to overcome this, but if you consistently do the next right thing, I promise you, you will get through this. But it's not going to happen alone. It's going to happen with help. I think the exo marriage intensives could be extremely helpful to you as well. In fact, we always recommend that people right out of the gate get into an intensive as soon as you can. So what is an intensive? An intensive is something that exomarriage provides where it can be a half day, a full day, or two days, and you work with professionals who are trained to walk through this with you. And basically, you get what counseling can do. Like, in a matter of, like, it's about, like, two months worth of counseling. And so you're getting a lot of. You're gaining a lot of headway in a short amount of time, and especially when it's crucial. Right. When you have that news that your spouse has been involved in an affair. I do know that with the EXO marriage intensives, one of their stipulations is you cannot be, like the spouse, cannot be actively involved in the affair. And so they really hone in on the need to have no contact with that other person. But if you want to make an appointment with them with our EXO coaches, you can go to xomarriage.com and the initial crisis call is available.

Yeah, and that's a great first step, is just making that call, talking to somebody about it. Friends, we appreciate the question. Again, you can write us anytime with your question. And we appreciate you being part of the Naked Nation, as we call it, our podcast family. So thank you for tuning in. If you haven't already, please subscribe to this podcast so you never miss an episode, and we'll look forward to seeing you next time.