Why Marriage Is Hard

You all are in for a real treat today. We have a very special couple that we're going to interview and Dave is going to tell you all about them.

That's right. John and Katherine Gordon. I mean, their resume, we could really spend the full time just like talking about the resume. Catherine, she's an author, a movie producer. Like, you know, she's done so much. You know, John's best known for being married to Catherine, for marrying up, but he's also got a job. John is a prolific author. I mean, he's written all kinds of books. They have done some stuff, so I seen some stuff. Without further ado, guys, welcome, welcome. John and Kathy, welcome, welcome.

Thank you so much for having us. I loved the intro and I love that you've been following John since the energy bus. That's awesome.

Yeah, no, I'm, yeah, big, big fan of both you guys and just the world needs your message. Right? I mean, I'm convinced John's the reason why Texas is playing in the, in the national playoff right now. I'm convinced. You know, he, he, it's one of the teams. He's, he's, he's motivated and he shared with us at an event some of the things he shared with them. And I was ready to put on a helmet and go play. I think this out of shape, middle aged guy, like, put me in coach. I'm my brother's keeper.

There you go.

There we go.

Thanks, Dave.

Great story, right? Really, really, it's great story.

Hook.

Em.

Horns.

Yes.

Well, and you guys are here today.

A question. Why is this named the Naked Podcast?

We normally record it. Naked.

This is not true.

But when we have guests, we're, we're clothed from the waist up for the camera.

Completely clothed. No, we, it all goes back to the very first married couple, Adam and Eve. You know how they were naked and unashamed. And in Genesis 2 it describes that, and we love that because they were naked physically, which is awesome, but they were also naked spiritually, emotionally, and, and they didn't have any secrets. You know, Dave likes to say that they weren't hiding anything up their sleeve because they weren't even wearing sleeves. And it was just this beautiful picture of vulnerability and honesty and transparency, not only between Adam and Eve, but between Adam and Eve and God. And we believe, you know, we know it doesn't stay like that. We know the serpent enters the story and we know about the fall. But we do believe that we can get back to the Garden and having a naked marriage by being honest with each other by, you know, seeing the good, the bad, and the ugly and just being. Being like, this is who I am and all of me and really bearing all to one another. And we believe you do that first and foremost just through honest conversations. And so we try to do that here on the Naked Marriage podcast. Dave likes to say we specialize in the awkward because sometimes it gets really awkward, but we feel like you have to work through the awkward, you know.

Yeah, we are awkward, and so we're naturally good at that. Awkward talks. And we do talk, you know, in addition to, like, the naked, emotionally, you know, spiritually, all that, we do talk about sex very specifically a lot. And a lot of folks write in and say, you know, as Christians growing up in churches and families and cultures where this wasn't really safe to talk about as openly. Like, it is a gift to be able to have a safe place, to just have real conversations. And so we just try to be very real. And.

Well, Kathryn loves to talk about sex, so this is actually.

I do. And I don't know if you guys know about this, but I'm actually writing a book right now on sex and intimacy. Oh, awesome.

Then you're coming back on.

Yes. And it's. This is right in line with all that I'm writing about. You know, it's not. I tell people, no, it's not. It's not a how to, but it's. It is, you know, the history of why. Why God wants us to have. To. To. To mate, to have sex, to be intimate. Right. There's. There's a lot that goes into that. So, yeah, this is right up my alley. And, you know, it's really why I wanted to write Relationship grit. Ultimately, if I boil it down in that, as I started to talk to couples who were struggling so many times, I would ask them, and John knows, you know, he's like, oh, no, here she goes. We'll be sitting across the table from somebody at dinner, a business associate, and somehow it'll go to their personal life and that, you know, maybe they're struggling with their spouse. And I'll just say, are you having sex? Yeah. And John will be like, you know, but he knows at this point. But, you know, and nine times out of ten, that's part of. That's something they're not doing. I'm not going to say it's not the issue because it's normally something underlying there.

Yeah.

But again, if you're not connecting.

No. If it's not happening, it's a huge warning light.

Like, it's one of the biggest warning lights.

Yeah, it really is. I think you're exactly right. And so intuitive to ask that question and to recognize the correlation that if this isn't happening, it's a sign of.

Yeah.

Of much deeper.

There's been a breakdown.

There's. Yeah, there's a real. There's been a breakdown somewhere.

Yeah. And so. So what. What are those things? What are some of those things? And I'll. And I'll ask again when I say, are you telling them this? Whatever the issue is, yes. And they'll say no. Now, these are couples sometimes that have been married 30 years, you guys. I'm not just talking about newlyweds. I mean, there, There are real, real foundational issues sometimes in marriages that they just go on for the longest time with their distractions with the kids. And somewhere or, you know, at some point, you hit. Hit that roadblock. And so, you know, I would say, have you shared this with them? And they would say, no. So basic communication is so key. And John has a quote, which is my favorite quote, which is where there's a void and communication negativity will fill it.

Oh, yeah, right. That's really good.

I mean, because think about it. When there is a void, you're not thinking, oh, they love me so much. You're never thinking the positive. Right. Why don't we do that? Why aren't we thinking the positive? It's always something negative. And so you have to be able to communicate. So that's one of the big ones.

John is a quote factory, isn't he?

John Gordon is a quote factory. I told him I want to take all his quotes and I want to do some kind of a calendar. We'll do something.

Oh, yeah.

How are you doing over there? I know, I'm. I'm taking over.

No, no, you're doing. You guys are great. You both are such a wealth of knowledge.

Yeah. And, and, and please put out the, The. The motivational calendar from both of you. I would buy it. Hey, let's rewind the clock, though. I, I know some of your story. You guys have got an amazing story, individually and collectively. No, John grew up in Italian Jewish home, you know, and then. And then kind of dabbled in Buddhism even in your 20s. And then you go from that to, like, being this, this, this Christian leader, which I love. I love the story of kind of like how you got there as a couple. You guys have had all kinds of highs and lows in, in business and, and moves and huge transitions and. And really, like, completely changing the trajectory of. Of kind of where you were going to where you are now. And I think that that just is so inspiring for folks because a lot of folks who are listening are where you used to be and want to be where you are now, and it feels impossible. And so that's one reason I love your story. But take us back to the beginning and just tell people how you met, what was the early days of your relationship, of how you connected, and what were those early years like.

So I'll start there. I was opening a bar in buckhead. I was 24 years old. It was only open for three weeks. I invested in this place, put my grandmother's money that she gave me when she passed away into it. Didn't come from money, but I said, okay, I'm going to take this and try to make this work. And next thing you know, this woman is walking down the street as I'm standing on the corner. And as she's walking down, I look at her and I realize she's very pretty. And as she gets closer, I say, hey, come on in. Come on in. I'm having a party. I wasn't really having a party. I was trying to get business in. But I also noticed how beautiful she was. And I said, you're the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. And I wasn't saying that as a line, like I really meant it. And so she talked to me briefly, and she said she had to go. I said, okay, well, I'm having a party Friday. Come back Friday. She, okay, I'll definitely come back Friday. And she never came back.

Oh, heartbreak.

But. But a week after that, I'm at the Best of Atlanta charity event. My parents are in town visiting. We're walking around, and who do I see but the same woman who is now walking across the room on the other side of the room, as I see, I'm like, there she is. I couldn't believe it was her. So I ran up to her. She was eating cheesecake at the time, had no interest in talking to me. But I said, listen, I've got to get your number. I've got to get your number. Like, I'm not going to ever not be able to get in touch with you ever again. I've got to get your number, and you know I'm going to call you. She gave me the number, but she will tell you it was really just to get rid of me. She had really. No.

They get rid of this stalker.

And the funny thing is, guys, the funny Thing is that when I went up to her, there was a guy she was talking to that she told me years later was next to her, trying to talk to her, but I had no idea someone was next to her, talking to her. Like, I had.

That's the tunnel vision, right?

You're just like, I got to make this happen.

This is my move.

I didn't even see the guy. Like, he was literally out of my pitch. I was dialed it on her. And so I remember we had this, you know, just. It was a nice, brief interaction, but really not much. And I just kept calling her. Kath, you want to take it from here about how I kept calling you?

Yeah. Well, no, he kept calling me, kept calling me. So finally one day I answer the phone and actually we ended up having a conversation. And I'm like, all right, this guy's got some depth to him. You know, we talked about spirituality and just our views on life.

And.

And so I had agreed to go out with him, but then every time I was supposed to go out with him, something would come up or I just wouldn't feel like going out. And so I would cancel. And so this happened four different times where I'd agreed to go out with him and then I would cancel. So this last time, he calls to confirm that he was coming to pick me up. I'm on the other line with my girlfriend. I click over and he's like, all right, I'm coming to get you at seven o'. Clock. And I stop him. And I'm like, I really don't feel like going out tonight. And he goes, listen here, you keep canceling, canceling on me. If you don't go out with me tonight, we're never going out. And I was kind of, like, taken back. Like, people really didn't talk to me like that. And I was like, huh? So I clicked over to my girlfriend. I'm like, you're not going to believe what this guy just said to me. And she was like, oh, my God, that's awesome. You have to go out with them.

He is persistent.

Yeah, So I did go out with him. Now, I gotta tell you, I didn't do my makeup. My hair was back in barrettes. I wore just some short. I did not put any effort into this, right? So when we get together, he's looking at me and he says, you know, like, wow, you don't really look like the girl that I met. That's the Atlanta party, you know. But anyway, so, you know, we started chatting, and again, there were no fireworks. I wasn't really into him. And you know, he walks me to my car, I say goodbye. And that weekend I went away with some girls on a, on a, like a girls trip. And I had like a list of guys I was dating. And so I was talking to my girlfriends and we're kind of going through this list of guys and John doesn't like this part, but you know, there was like, there were a couple professional wrestlers, there was Michael Bolton's manager, Lewis Levin. I mean, I, you know, had some high profile stuff going on and John wasn't even on the list. But I'm like going through and saying I want to simplify my life and mark it off. So anyway, get back from that weekend and for some reason to this day, I do not know why I pick up, picked up the phone and I called John and I told him I was back in town. And he was like, I'm coming over right now. He came running over and we literally stayed up all night long on the couch, not making out, but talking about God. Like we had such an incredible conversation about God and about life. And from that day forward, we were inseparable, even through all the fighting and all the chaos and the craziness. John, do you want to add on to that?

Yeah, we fought a lot after that. But that conversation that night really was a foundation for us going forward. Like, we weren't Christians, but we both believed in God the Father. You know, we both believe in this Father God, that. That had an interest in us, that created us, that, that was involved in our lives. And so we would pray and we would, we even had a tree that we would visit on our walks. We called it our God tree. And so we had the spiritual foundation that was really important to us. But then as we started to, to date and get serious, her issues came up, my issues came up. And we often say now when we look back, we realize that you both come into a relationship with your wounds. Each person has a wound and those wounds, if not healed, will eventually destroy the relationship. But marriage is the greatest opportunity to heal your wounds when you come into it together. And so that's what had to happen for us. But for a while there, the issues were coming up, the fights were happening, and we really lost our connection to God very quickly and our connection to each other during that time. And so we tell our whole story, as you know, in relationship grit and really share how everything unraveled. And yet we still know to this day. Like we would say it all the time even then. Like we were meant to be together. Like, we knew we didn't even like each other on our wedding day, but we knew we were supposed to get married, which is wild when you think about it. Like, we were fighting up to our wedding day, and we just knew we were supposed to get married. We just felt it. So we were being obedient to that. And yet it was such a struggle early on.

Yeah.

Well, what were some things? Like what. What happened? Like what? I know it's not just probably one. One moment, but what were some things that helped you all to find that healing that you're talking about?

Well, we did start taking walks together and talking. I mean, like I said in the beginning of the interview, just really basic communication. We had that connection. We lost the ability to just talk to each other without fighting. So we started taking walks. What else, John?

I would say for me personally, because each person has to heal in their relationship with God.

Absolutely.

And so the biggest game changer was. Was for me actually becoming a follower.

Of Jesus and, oh, a hundred percent.

And giving my life to Jesus.

Well, how did. How did that happen?

Yeah, what did that look like for you guys?

Making that pivot from being, you know, always having that base of spirituality, having some level of faith, but really connecting that into a relationship with Christ, which is a huge step. What did that look like for you two?

Yeah. So what happened was Katherine almost left me early in our marriage because I was so miserable and so negative. We had moved to Jacksonville from Atlanta. I was working for Dot com, lost my job, and now everything is crumbling, and I am fearful, I am stressed, and I'm blaming Catherine for why my life has not turned out the way I want it to, why I have not lived up to the success that I want to be in, the potential that I had with the Cornell University. I was an Ivy League graduate. I was here to do all these great things. And now I have two kids. I'm about to lose my house, I just lost my job, and now I'm about to lose my marriage because I am being a jerk to my wife. And Katherine had enough of my negativity. She said, if you don't. If you don't change, we're over. Like, she was getting ready to just leave and be done with me because I was just being so negative, so miserable, so unhappy. And of course, the blaming of her was. Was definitely the kicker. And when she threatened to leave me, that was a wake up call, because I wanted to stay married. I wanted to change. And I remember crying out, going, God, why Am I here? What am I born to do? I know I'm here for a reason. What is my purpose? And writing and speaking came to me in that moment. And then I thought, what am I going to write and speak about? I want to be more positive. So I started to research ways that could be more positive. So my journey began with trying to be more positive myself. And I studied positive psychology. And I would take these walks of gratitude because the research showed that you can't be stressed and thankful at the same time, right?

Yeah.

But on these walks, eventually I started to pray, and these walks of gratitude turned into walks of prayer and then surrender. And then a good friend of mine gave me a sermon from Erwin McManus, which was why I follow Jesus. And I listened to that sermon, and I remember telling Catherine how it impacted me. And so I really became a follower of Jesus. First, you know, her Jewish boyfriend, fiance, now husband, you know, grew up Jewish, 98% Ashkenazi Jewish. I was bar mitzvahed. Now I'm saying I think Jesus is the answer. Jesus is the way forward. And I was baptized. And she was okay with it because she saw the change in me. Like, she saw how I became a better person, how my heart started to change, how I started to be more loving, more kind. I was so selfish and so focused and so driven. I wasn't taking the time for her or the family and the kids. And so she started to see that change in me. And I think that really affected her in many ways. So I am now this follower of Jesus in our relationship. But she grew up Catholic, but she still wasn't quite there in terms of saying, like, Jesus is her savior. Like, Jesus is. Is what I need. Jesus is the Lord of my life. There was not that kind of deep, I would say, connection to Jesus from her standpoint. Right, hon?

Yeah. So, I mean, I grew up. My family was Irish Catholic, and we didn't go to Mass all the time because, you know, I had two alcoholic parents. And, you know, it was really crazy. But I had a great aunt who was, as I describe, a really beautiful, beautiful Catholic in that, you know, I just. I learned from her by watching her. It really wasn't even so much as what she said. And so I did have that as an example. But again, there was no foundation of religion or Catholicism or any of that. But so when John decided to become a Christian, I was like, I supported him, but I was just more like, okay, where's this going? But it proved to be. I mean, it wasn't like Automatic. He was a Christian and that was it. He was in the very beginning because he was so passionate and learning all this stuff and, you know, just. It just had. Everything had come and hit him at once. He could be a little bit judgy in terms of like, well, you should be thinking, you know, or you should be, you know what I mean? And so, and I had to kind of correct him on that. And he pulled back from that. And so then it was really that we learned more through just watching him and from what he would share with us as a family. And so it really did change our family dynamic. I have to say. That was the real game changer for us for sure.

Yeah, I really needed that healing that only Jesus could bring. And so from that healing, I healed and then healed people, help and heal others. So then I became more of a healer in our relationship, more of a giver instead of a taker, more of an investor instead of a consumer. And that really changed our marriage when I started to give more. But it was out of love and not out of obligation. It was out of my faith and out of my healing. So I really became a different person in the relationship. So we always tell couples, like, we want our book, Relationship Grit, to be a healing book where you, where you look at each other and grit is all about healing together, becoming stronger together. And then you go forward together in this new healed relationship that, that's always evolving and transforming. I mean, we still fight, we still disagree, we still have our issues come up from time to time. Like everyone, no one's perfect, but we're able to work and live and be married more from our healing than our wounds, which is really a great thing. So now at 52 and 55, we can look back and look at those 20 and 30 year olds. I was 24 when I met her. And you can see the changes that we've made and how that has resulted in the fruit in our life. We invested in the root all these years and we created a very healthy root. And as you know, that leads to great fruit.

Yeah. I look back now and I just think, wow, thank gosh, we stayed together. You know, I like to tell couples, you really almost have to think about your marriage is like riding a roller coaster. You're going to go down, but you're going to come back up. Like, you just have to stay on the ride. Right. And because I look back now and I think how wonderful and how beautiful of a life that we have together. And if we hadn't stayed together, if we had given up during those low points, we wouldn't be able to experience the fruits of what we have now. So, you know, again, and my whole thing with that is always like that is barring any physical or emotional abuse. That's. Sure, yeah, but that's different. But other than that, stick it out. And that's really what the GRIT acronym is all about. And I can give you the quick synopsis of that if you'd like. No.

Yes. Well, you sure? Go for it.

Oh, you want us to cut time?

No, no, go for it.

Go for it.

Okay, go for it.

So, well, I'll give you the quick version, then you can ask any questions. But the G stands for God. So it's what we just talked about, bringing God into our relationship. And then the R stands for resolve. And that's what I was just talking about in. In your relationship, when you're fighting, don't give up. Resolve to stay together. The grass isn't greener on the other side. And then the I is invest. One of the ways to resolve to stay in your relationship is to start investing into it. Right. Just like when we're working out, we have to work out to be fit. You got to work on your relationship to have a great relationship. And then the T is together. You have to do it together. And it's not always going to be equal. Sometimes one of you is going to be giving more than the other, but you both have to do it together. I also like to say the T could stand for team. To remember that you're on the same team. So don't keep score.

Yeah, that's a huge point and one you make in the book. That is. I just think it's such. So foundational that you're not fighting against each other on two different teams, but you're on the same team and fight together. Yeah.

And for the marriage. And you know, one thing, like when I saw the title of your book, it just grabbed me because we've talked about grit before, but I love how you guys, you. You give it. You kind of give it teeth so that people can really apply it to their life. And, you know, would you say too. I know in our. We've been married 22 years and we've had a lot of highs and a lot of lows too. And I feel like, you know, and I wish couples, all couples would understand that, you know, you are going to have problems. I mean, Jesus himself said, in this world, you will have trouble. But he doesn't leave it there. He says, but take heart I have overcome the world like Jesus will help us overcome. But that doesn't mean it's easy, right? It's never easy. I mean, it's often much harder than we ever anticipated. But getting through those hard times, it develops even more grit that, like, you learn something through that. And I'm sure you all could speak to that. It's like, so every time you get through that, and you. And you keep on choosing that togetherness and fighting for each other, have that resolve, you're building those things, and even building your dependence on God, it's like this. You're getting more kind of tools in your belt, you know, so to speak. And, like, you can, you know, you're going to be able to bring those out to help you in the future or to help somebody else. And I'd love for y' all to speak to that, because I do think so many times people, you know, when they hit a roadblock, they just. They think, like, I don't think we'll ever get. Be able to get through this. Like, this is just too much for us. What would you say to that couple who feels that way right now?

Go ahead, John.

I would say that when you have this wound and it heals, it becomes a scar. And your scars are actually stronger than the wound and actually stronger than the original skin. And so we're now stronger because of what we've been through. Yeah, and people should know we've been through a lot. I mean, early in our marriage, I was not faithful early on, and I was, you know, 28, 29, 30 years old, and not a Christian, not acting out of. Of. Out of a mature place in my life, acting out of my wounds, looking for validation, two little kids and a wife. And, you know, although, again, I don't like to give specifics, but, I mean, you do talk about sex on this thing. I didn't have sex, but. But I did act out in a way that was inappropriate. And I did. You know, I did. I did fail. And it would be considered adultery. Would I? Yeah.

And just so you know, doesn't matter to me, he was still cheating.

It was betrayal. And then at 40. At 40, I tell Catherine, not. Not out of obligation, not out of guilt, like God was telling me. I had to tell her because there was something in the way of our relationship and our intimacy and our connection. I felt it, I knew it, she felt it, but just in different ways. And God was telling me I had to tell her. I even told a pastor friend of mine the details. He goes, well, since you didn't have sex. You don't have to tell her. I go, no, no. But God is telling me I have to tell her, and I knew I did.

That's bad advice from the pastor. I mean, that's why this is called the naked marriage. You have to live without secrets. We say the level of your honesty will determine the level of your intimacy. And if there's a roadbloc your marriage, then for the first step, I think, is asking, like, well, what haven't we shared?

Yeah.

And. And so I admire you for sharing it and being obedient to God and getting it out there. I'm sure that wasn't a. Probably a pleasant conversation.

No, it was the. It was the hardest conversation. We're at a walk on the beach, and Catherine's friend had just told her that she was getting divorced, and she saw another friend that was getting separated and hearing all this bad news, and she's, like, felt very insecure about her relationship. And now we're taking this walk, and she's telling me these stories, and I go, I got to tell you something like that.

Always typical of John Gordon. He has the worst timing. Timing. But I'm feeling so insecure at that point. You know, nothing was bad at that point. It wasn't even like we were fighting. He was traveling all the time for work. He had, you know, become this Christian. You know, we. Things were okay, but I wasn't feeling connected.

Right.

Right. He was traveling. And then I go to lunch, like, one of the girlfriends that told me they were getting a divorce, this couple. Every time we would go play tennis with them, and we would switch sides of the court, they would kiss. Like, you know, John and I were kind of like, stand there, you know, we weren't doing the PDAs. And they seemed like they were so in love. And then all of a sudden, for her to tell me they were getting a divorce. Then another friend of mine says she's cheating on her husband. I just kind of came home really unsettled, you know, asked my husband to go on this walk on a beach, share it with him, because I want comfort. And. And he stops dead in his tracks, and turns, he goes, I have something to tell you. I was like, what? And then he tells me, but obviously, you know, a lot of good came out of that in the end. That was after I decided I was going to stay with him, because I definitely kicked him out on the couch for a while, so.

And she was going to leave. I mean, she was so upset. She felt so Betrayed. I thought it was gonna be no big deal because I had become this Christian.

Yeah. In his mind, he's thinking, that was so long ago, Right?

Yeah.

Right? Yeah. But no, for me, it was that day.

And I'm like, I'm not even that guy anymore. I'm a completely different guy. Complete transformation. I'm a totally new person. I'm now this best selling author, speaking, writing, traveling all around, talking. And my wife literally will not talk to me and is so upset with me. And I thought it was gonna be no big deal. And she felt like it happened yesterday the way I.

It was fresh because you'd worked through it. But this is brand new for her, right, Ashley?

Dave, I wish I had your counsel back then, because I would have been a lot better off. But I believe God's timing is perfect because I was meant to share it. On that walk, as hard as it was, as difficult as it was, it was a conversation that we needed to have to grow and get better. And we needed to even go through the discomfort of not knowing where our marriage was going. Because there were moments when she was gonna leave me. There were moments when she was done with me. I'm on a plane and I'm going to a speaking event. I'm sitting next to this guy, and I just start pouring in my heart out to this stranger who has no idea who I am, telling him my whole story about what's going on. You don't understand. My wife's gonna leave me. And I'm like, and now I'm doing this. And that wasn't me. I'm not that guy anymore. Blah, blah, blah. And he said, you know, my wife and I, we pray before bed every single night. It's been a game changer for our marriage. He said, it's just been something that's been great for us. I think you should consider that. And I remember praying God, like, I want to pray with Katherine for our marriage. I need to start doing that. What's that prayer? And God literally gave me that prayer. And I started saying that prayer every night. First on the couch, then I was able to move back into the bed. She let me back in the bed, but on my side. I was not allowed to cross the side. And I would pray that every night. Kathy, you want to take it from there when I would just pray every night?

Well, yeah, he kept saying this prayer, and the prayer's in the book, but I can tell you what the prayer is, and it's, God, we invite you into our marriage and family to Love us, to heal us, to unite us, to strengthen us so we can grow strong together and serve you together and raise children that glorify and honor you. And we kind of added that last part when we decided it was going to be our family prayer, not just for he and I, but he would say this prayer. I would hear it all the time. Even if he was on the road, he would call. He would sit on the phone with the kids on speaker. And I started to memorize the prayer, but I wasn't about to say it out loud. And I write about this in the book, but he just kept saying it. And he would reach for my hand if we were in bed before we were going to sleep, and he would, you know, try to grab my hand. I wouldn't let him grab my hand. He'd still say the prayer. And that was something I have to say real quick that I really admire him for, is he never gave up. He just kept saying the prayer. Just never gave. Gave up on fighting for us. And so one night, he was saying the prayer, and for some reason, I started saying it out loud with him, and I grabbed his hand.

What a moment.

And I knew that that was the moment I had decided to forgive him and I was gonna stay in the marriage. I know I cry every time I say. You know, one of the things that we also did was we.

We.

We decided to have a covenant. We came up with a covenant for our marriage. You want to talk about that, John?

Yeah. The covenant was like. I felt like God was telling us, okay, I already made a decision years before. Like, when I was in a situation, I walked away from a situation that could have been a bad thing for me to do with another woman. And I walked out of there. And as I walked out, I said, I will never put myself in a position like this ever again. I will never do this ever again. And never have. Never will. I had made that decision years before. But in our marriage, I felt like we needed to make a covenant with God that we were not just going to live according to vows, but a covenant that we would be faithful to each other and faithful to God. So I told her, like, yeah, like, that's it. It's you and me till the day we die. And. And we're together, you know, forever.

I said, so we. We call it the no cut zone. We're in the no cut zone. That's it. John, you want to tell them the. The prayer statistic because it's pretty fascinating.

Yeah. I mean, prayer is so important for those listening you know, you might be Christians, and yet you may go to church, but you may not pray a lot. I find a lot of people want to and need to pray more. You know, we just talked about the sports teams I work with. I was just with the Ravens and the Jaguars, speaking at their chapel services. And in doing both of them, I asked the guys, how many of you need to pray more? And every guy raised their hand. And in marriages, I think it's the same way. So couples who pray together. 99% of couples who pray together stay together.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're going to stay together if you pray together.

I believe it.

The number is 50% who go to church. Now, it doesn't mean that we should not go to church. Of course we need to go to church, but it shows you that it's not necessarily going to church. It's actually the act of praying together.

It's the ongoing prayer.

It's ongoing. And it's your spirit, and your wife is spirit, your spouse's spirit, and God is spirit. So it's one spirit becoming one spirit with the Lord. Corinthians 6:17, he was joined to the Lord is one spirit with him. And when you're praying together in Jesus, you become one spirit with God altogether. And I think that's where healing comes in. It's where renewal comes in. It's where strength comes in. It's where grit, you know, really comes in. So. So prayer is. Is essential for a marriage.

It is. I mean, we absolutely 100% believe that. And we see that. I mean, we see that in the couples that continuously pray together. You know, they. They have stronger marriages. And I think, you know, people watching and listening. If you are not currently praying, don't look at that as that. You're doomed. Because you can choose today to start that today. Just simple prayer. It doesn't have to be complicated. You know, get their book, you guys. You know, kind of walk people through that. I love your prayer that you guys have. It's very simple but very profound. And I think that that can make such a difference in people's lives and just starting somewhere, because I think sometimes we don't do it because we feel, you know, prayer is very intimate. It's a very intimate act. And, you know, yes, we should pray individually, but praying collectively as a married couple is. And as a family, too, it's very intimate as well. And I think sometimes people, you know, they don't do it because they're just. They feel very vulnerable. But that's the whole point Is we're getting, you know, we're coming before God. And. And I even challenge people, too. I'm like, even if you're mad at each other, even more so you should pray. Because it's really hard to stay mad at your spouse and pray for them at the same time. And I always tell people, if you don't believe me, TR it because God does something. I mean, he just softens your hearts.

And that is so true, Ashley. I can't tell you how many times, if we're going to bed and he's irritating me, we'll still say the prayer and then everything's fine. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. You know, and I really feel like, you know, with us as Christians and, you know, I really feel like God puts us together. There's a reason you two are together, Ashley and Dave. There's a reason John and I are together. And I think that, you know, the enemy is always trying to divide.

Oh, yeah.

And so you, you know, it's that prayer just sometimes, just the prayer that brings us together. You know, I'm not saying it means you gotta forgive some, you know, like, sometimes they really make you mad, but you gotta go to bed. You gotta go to bed with prayer. Yeah.

And I think going back to what we talked about, we were so disconnected going through that struggle. So I know a lot of couples are disconnected right now and listening to this and they want a greater connection. We went through this great disconnection, but then it led to this great connection now. And the number one thing we did over the years was to pray and to heal together through that praying time and then work on our marriage and invest in each other, invest in our relationship. And now I look back and I realize, wow, like, all the struggle, all the disconnection, going through the darkness, what you. What you uncover, God will cover with his grace.

Yes.

If you try to cover it up, God will eventually uncover, and it won't be good. And so we were uncovering and allow. Allowing God to come in. And now we have this great connection and our sex is better than ever. Like, so here I am, this young guy trying to look for validation outside, thinking it's going to be all exciting outside when I have my wife and my mistress with me on the road, traveling wherever I want to go. She's.

That's one person, by the way.

And it's such great connection. And from that, yeah, that's what it's all about. Comes great sex, comes this great love. And so it's like everything could ever wanted. It's like you just gotta go through the struggle and the tough times and not give up. Just stay together and stick together and work on it together. Don't just stick together and grind your teeth through it. No, stick together and then bring the joy and the love to it. And then over time, what you'll realize is, wow, the other side of it is this greater intimacy, greater connection, and yes, greater sex.

Yeah. And, you know, I want to add this, a couple things. Ashley, you had said that some people and I do get this a lot. So you're right. People will go, well, I don't really know how to pray or what to say. And take our prayer. It's in our book. It's on the website for free. Relationshipgrit.com Take it. Matter of fact, I think it's on our social media. Use it for your own or tweak it how you need to. But one thing I just want to say for, for your listeners that are what I. When I say they're still in it, meaning, like, they have younger kids and they are really, their energy and their focus is going towards their children. It's a lot harder to stay focused on the marriage. I always just say, this is. You're in it to win it. Like, if you can get through this stage, if you guys can remember that you're a team and you're doing it together, I promise you the reward is amazing. This is the hard part, right? And so, you know, you just. And you need tools. And that's why Relationship Grit, our book, I mean, your podcast, things like this, where you can help couples know, number one, they're not alone. And number two, give them tools for a better relationship and a better sex life. Really?

Yes.

Yeah.

I love it. Y' all are such a treasure.

You guys are an inspiration. We could talk to you all day. And for everybody that's listening and you're like, I want. I want all this. You know, where do I start? I would say get the book, Get Relationship Grit and follow these two online. I mean, just. Just for daily inspiration, motivation. And then they have. They have a wealth of resources even beyond the Relationship Grip book as well, and do a deep dive. And I promise it will be an encouragement to you. But John and Kathryn, tell folks where they can find you online.

Katherine.

Yeah, I'm on Instagram at Katherine Gordon. My website is Katherine FourReal.com I have, I think five or six downloadable, free, downloadable guides, tips, things you can use in your relationship from Relationship Grit. And we have a website called relationshipgritbook.com and you can get a lot of resources for free off there, too. Our prayer is on there. We have an action guide. It's a free action guide that honestly really should be, you know, a whole course, but it's amazing. It's free. So lots of resources. And John, where can they find you?

Well, I first want to say that, you know, my favorite of Kathryn's resource is 5 Ways to Fight Less. So I actually really love that resource on fighting less. And you can find me@johngordon.com j o n gordon.com or social media on Gordon 11. And we just posted something the other day, just sharing our own story with our family because we were with our kids and we were dancing and we said, you know, you probably think when you see this dancing video that, you know, our life is perfect and we have this incredible perfect family. But let me tell you about what we've been through. And we shared a little bit of our story with our kids and the struggle with kids, because sometimes the marriage is great, but. But the kids are struggling big time, and that affects the marriage. And our kids went through some really dark times in their teen years and college years, and we stayed strong together. And as we danced together, now that they're 25 and 23, we're all having fun dancing. We went to bed that night in our prayer and we're like, wow, think about how our life has turned out so much better compared to the hell we were going through back then.

Yeah.

And you almost forget. You almost forget how bad. Yeah, you do. And so we use social media as a way to always just try to communicate, connect, and always try to add value and share, you know, resources to help people. So we hope people find us there. And Ashley and Dave, we just can't thank you enough. This podcast that you do is such a great service for so many couples and marriages. And just I love the premise of it and just the essence behind it of Naked in the garden, unashamed. Right. Amazing. Because you see how the enemy's always trying to create that shame, and that's his game plan. And yet what you're doing is bringing people back together. So we're honored to be part of that process that can help people.

Thank you all.

We're honored to have you guys here. It's great to connect. Like we said, we've admired you both from a distance for so long, and just to connect in this way has been so meaningful to us. And for those who are listening, I know this has been an encouragement to you. So look up John and Kathryn. Stay connected to them. I promise you it will be a blessing to you. And do us a favor and share this episode. There is somebody in your friends group that desperately needs to hear this, where this conversation might be the game changer that they've been waiting for, been praying for, and could help unlock the place where they're stuck. And so share this on social media or text it to a few friends. I promise it'll make a difference to them. Thank you guys so much. We'll see you next time on the Naked Marriage Podcast.