Bhutan: Caught between the competing interests of India & China! W/H.E. Loknath Sharma

Hello everybody and welcome to Geopolitical Trends, where truth matters. Very excited to be with you on this, uh, August 11th. I'm even more excited because I have a very interesting guest, uh, that I, uh, was able to, uh, connect with through a good friend of mine, and he was kind enough to allocate time for us and to share with us his knowledge. So let me bring in my guest. Here we go. This is the High Excellency Lockhart. First of all, yeah, can you hear me?

Yes, yes, perfect. Thank you.

All right, first of all, let me introduce you to my community. So to those, of course, that's the first time we have in His Excellency here. Uh, uh, Laknat, uh, uh, is, is a dedicated social and community leader with experience in Bhutan and Australia. He was elected to Bhutan's third parliament and served as a Minister of Economic Affairs and also as a Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. And of course, during his tenure, that was leading to major transformative initiative. And by the way, uh, for the community, I put a full bio of, of His Excellency, uh, in, in the description. So please check it out, uh, once you get a chance to do this. So, so once again, thank you for being here, uh, Lakh. We are very, very grateful to have you. I would like to start first with asking your input or your sort of description for those who do not know where Bhutan is. A lot of outsiders do not know.

Thank you.

Firstly, I would like kuzuzampo and good morning to all the viewers. It's a real pleasure to be here today to share a little bit about Bhutan. Bhutan is a small Himalayan country that's tucked in between two powerful, uh, two powerful global powers. In fact, in the eastern Himalayas, it is bordered by China towards the north and India towards the south. And also, I would like to say that Bhutan is a country without traffic lights, and it's a, it's, it's the first carbon-negative country, maintaining it so, uh, till now. Despite being tucked between two global powers, we have always maintained our own uniqueness and sovereignty. Well, that, that's where our geographic location is. And Bhutan is just not the land of Thunder Dragon, you see. Bhutan, I would say, is a living example of how culture, nature, and governance can be in harmony. Wow. So what I can say is, if I have to explain to someone outside, I can say that Bhutan is a place where ancient traditions are not just preserved but lived every day. I mean, not locked in the museums to show, but It forms part of our daily life, and we measure progress not only in economic terms, GDP, but by happiness and well-being of our people and environment, the philosophy of Gross National Happiness. So Bhutan's location is exactly adjacent to Nepal, but we don't have a geographical border with Nepal or Bangladesh. Our country is small, around 30,000-40,000 square kilometers, And it's bordered by China towards the north and by India, uh, in the south. So we are really, uh, rugged, uh, geographically, you see, a landlocked country, I would say. Thank you.

Well, indeed, the two major, two major countries, but mainly China. Now, I, I don't see the, uh, sort of the global status of India more so than it is of, of China. But since you talked about Bhutan as being sort of a nice laid-back country where happiness and so forth, this reminds me of a concept you have in your country about the Gelephu Mindfulness City. What is that about?

So I can briefly talk about Gelephu Mindfulness City. What I can start with is in the south central part of Bhutan, right along the border with Assam in India. In India, we are building something remarkable that's called Guilefu Mindfulness City or GMC. This is a place where innovation meets mindfulness. This city will be a global city opening doors to South and East Asia and the world further. It will be more than an infrastructure project. It's about co-creating a future in harmony with nature. And it's an economic wellness and a spiritual hub that puts into practice the philosophy of Gross National Happiness, which is the principle Bhutan had adopted since then. Therefore, What I can say at this moment is, Gelephu Mindfulness City will be a living space where people from across the world can work, heal, and think in harmony with nature. It's Bhutan's way of offering the world a place to slow down and reconnect with what truly matters.

Very interesting.

Yeah, what I can say is In a world of political tensions, economic uncertainty, and climate stress, we hope that this city will be a soothing balm. So this is a very different kind of city. Economy will be— is a prime case there. This is a special administrative region, uh, is already declared as a special administrative region with its own government governance structure, with its own board with its own governor, etc. And you can consider, you can even think it as an economic zone in some places. So this is what the Gilefu Mindfulness City will be, a special administrative region. All the laws there will not be the law of Bhutan. It will be a very modern law and a different entity. And wellness spiritualism, everything will be there so that we can live with nature. It will be a natural city. This is what I can say. Yeah, thank you.

And I'm gonna share a quick, quick clip here. I'm not gonna play at all. I'm gonna put the link for, for the community in the chat box just for you to see. Let's, let's just take a look quickly here for just a few seconds.

In the land of the Thunder Dragon lies a special place where wisdom and compassion have forged a unique way of life. Rooted in the timeless principles of Vajrayana Buddhism, Bhutan seamlessly intertwines spiritual and cultural values with a profound respect for nature. A green sanctuary where national parks and forests absorb more CO2 than the country emits, Bhutan harnesses the power of its rivers, making it one of the cleanest nations in the world. Guided by Buddhist principles and the philosophy of Gross National Happiness, Bhutan has nurtured a society built on trust and well-being, a safe place governed by a stable political system dedicated to the country's long-term vision. Today, Bhutan is focused on building its future, ready to emerge as the gateway between South Asia and the world. Rooted in Bhutanese identity and open to international partners, a new city will serve as a hub for global exchange and sustainable development. With a confined footprint of just 4% of the nation, this Special Administrative Region will lay the foundation for future generations, becoming a new model for a lasting legacy. Welcome to Gelefu Mindfulness City. Descending from the Himalayas to the lush tropical plains, a cascade of urban terraces is shaped by the uninterrupted flow of water, plants, and animals. A land where bridges become cultural landmarks connecting one neighborhood to another. A human-scale environment designed to inspire and nurture global talent, fostering a culture of collaboration, experimentation, and innovation.

I'm gonna stop it right there. It's because, uh, I have to talk to my guest. And by the way, I already put the link for you guys in the chat box to see the full video. It's about 4 minutes. It's worth watching some. Let me get back to— since the way you explained this concept, which, uh, thank you for that. I would like to get your take about the sort of— there are some geopolitical shifts that's taking place not only in that region but around the world. And in your opinion, given what's going on, and if I am to think about your region, where do you see Bhutan's vision moving forward?

Ah, thank you. See, we understand that the world today is on a complex trajectory where global— I mean, geopol— well, where geopolitics often overshadows the pursuit of prosperity or human well-being. And same thing is happening in our region too. However, Bhutan's vision, despite all these geopolitical shifts, all these geopolitical alliances, Bhutan's vision is very clear. Our goal is to remain self-reliant, peaceful, and resilient, even as the geographical, geopolitical map changes. As, as the geopolitical map changes, Our compass stays fixed on sustainability, human well-being, and regional friendship. Our goals had always been people-centric. I can read you, accept, or I often recall His Majesty King Jigme's words during 114th National Day, that was 17 December 2021. Let me quote this. Creating greater economic prosperity for our people and the nation remains an important goal. If our country prospers, the people will enjoy the benefit as they become more confident and self-reliant and develop a greater sense of belongingness to the country. So do we fail, our people will suffer. Stop. That is, I mean, uh, unquote. So, so I would say that whatever it may be, we are mindful of the regional shifts and alliances, but we remain committed to balance these forces for the well-being of Bhutan and the, and the wider world. We will definitely observe this, we will definitely follow this. At the same time, we will not deviate from our core interest and goal, however interesting might be the geopolitical shifts and alliances. Thank you.

And will it be fair to say that, for example, if I am to think as an analyst, you know, I'm a geopolitical analyst, I think outside the box per se, and we have to because that's usually where you see the trends are moving certain directions and so forth. Will it be fair to say that if I am to think that Bhutan, if you wanted to prosper economically for the benefit of its people, will it make more sense for it, for example, to extend its relations with, let's say, some other countries in, in, in Southeast Asia instead of just being limited to only one country or another? Will that be fair?

Oh, thank you for this question and very relevant. We are already expanding and Gilefu Mindfulness City, as already said, is one step. As I already said, that the connectivity with South Asia and East Asia, and also it will be a hub where we will be linked to South and East Asia. Also, we have already, you know, diversifying because our trade— major of our trade is with India so far, and whatever it may be because of the geographic locations and all that thing. But Bhutan is already diversifying, and we have very recently signed free trade agreement with Thailand, one of the ASEAN country, free trade agreement with Thailand. We have signed a preferential trade agreement with Bangladesh few years back. So what I can say is We already see the complexities, we already see the challenges, and Bhutan's future, uh, we are very sure for expanding, extending, and reaching to the broader markets. Thank you.

Yeah. Now, you served as a Minister of Energy, and sort of you— and I'm, I'm aware of a treaty that India has signed with Bhutan back then. By which Bhutan sells electricity, I believe, to India. Am I right? Am I correct in this?

We do. There, there is not such treaty for sale of electricity, but we have a memorandum of understanding, and we do sell electricity to India. That's correct.

Okay.

But there is something more to it. You can, you can complete your question if you have some more. Okay.

Yeah, what I was gonna get into with this is, will it be sort of for Bhutan's economic vision for the future, would it make more sense for it, for example, to enter into some other treaty with some other country that is maybe more capable? Is there a possibility for that?

There must be a possibility. Currently, uh, the, the cooperation in energy, particularly in hydropower, is tied between Bhutan and Nepal so far because we had been constructing this hydropower in the intergovernmental model, which means that India and Bhutan partner and construct, where India funds the hydropower projects, they provide the technical guidance because we didn't have all those in the past. So few of these large projects, whatever we have done so far, are mostly done this intergovernmental framework where India funds the project, it is constructed. After the project is constructed, we enter into a typical, uh, uh, findings of what would be the most probable rate of electricity because on the cost-plus model— there is a cost-plus model— and on that agreed rate, we sell to India. So, so far we are doing only be selling our surplus electricity to India because most of these projects were done country to country, is in an intergovernmental model, mostly in front funded by India. Now as we go, the future model would be more than this because probably this model not sustained. And then already we are talking about, uh, BIMSTEC, uh, integrated, uh, grid, energy grid, so that if we have an integrated energy grid within the region. Bhutan will be part of it, and we will be permitted to sell, or we have to sell as we construct more and more hydropower projects. And if we have to explore other markets, and in the region like Bangladesh is energy deficient, definitely we will have to explore these markets, and we have to have intra-interregion grid connectivity, BIMSTEC, whatever, and we have to trade energy among each other, because some countries here can have energy surplus, like Nepal or Bhutan, and Bhutan— others could be deficient. So I, I feel that this energy trade can happen with other countries too. Thank you.

And usually it will work because you have other countries that are far advanced technically than India. I mean, let me be fair about this because I, I'm aware of, you know, I used to travel to the region. I spent time in Nepal, in Kathmandu, and I had conversations back then when I was still in the government in Washington. I had a conversation with members of the government in Nepal and so forth. So, Mike, my thinking is, will it be fair for Bhutan to consider, for example, getting into another bilateral relations, let's say, with Indonesia or Malaysia or Singapore or whomever to bring in the new technology regarding the hydropower and so forth, because those countries have the means, they have the funding, unlike India. India is limited in its funding. Will I be correct in this?

Uh, you're, you're right. That will be the diversification of the Gulf in the future. Uh, though till now, uh, it was only with, uh, India because they are the nearest country and we have a direct geographical link, grid link, because electricity, you know, it cannot go into wave or it cannot go into some other packages. It has to have the grid connectivity, uh, it has to go by where. So grid connectivity is only with India, and if India develops a grid connectivity with other countries or in the region, say first start with Benin State and then we go further with the Asian countries in future. I feel this is possible and every country is looking forward, India as well as they are looking forward. And in if that happens, sure, uh, we are there. And also in the construction of hydropower, we are already, uh, we are already extending, we have, we are allowing FDIs already. We have a company from Thailand who will be doing a medium scale or small scale hydropower. Slowly, uh, it can, it can go, uh, in the FDI case, uh, with the investors from other countries. It isn't limited that only we will be doing with India, though so far so good. Whatever we have done, whatever India has done with us, partner with us and helped us to bring this hydropower in the forefront, very grateful. That, that is the way. Now we have learned lessons, they have learned lessons. As we go by, there there will be expansions, there will be collaborations, and there will be trade, I guess, with other countries. That is possible. I don't see any reason that that will not go further. And we are also trying to use the surplus energy in our own case and do other products, create other products, because our electricity is cheap. So all these things are possible, David.

Yeah, well, it's because the way I see it, you know, to me You know, and I'm getting to learn more, you know, before I set up the interview with you and so forth, I did a little bit of research now, and I really started to learn more about Bhutan to the point I'm hoping to visit maybe next year or two. But I'm also starting to think as a geopolitical analyst, I'm seeing the shifts that's taking place on the global stage. And as a good friend of mine puts it, Bhutan could become the Switzerland of Asia. Why? It's because its nature, it's because its location, and it's also because of its relationship with other countries. And that's why I'm, I'm like thinking, could Bhutan be having that vision the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years? Why not? What do you think?

Yes, we already have just recently developed our 10x 21st century economic roadmap. That is, we will grow our economy 10 times by another 10 years, and we, we want to reach to a developed country status. And by 5 years, we want to double our GDP. So this, this vision is there, and, and we are moving towards that. And you rightly said, yes, Bhutan could be treated as Switzerland of Asia. And with GMC coming up, and once by another 10-15 years as this project gears up, I'm sure the name Switzerland will be there. I mean, then everybody will start treating probably it is a Switzerland in the Himalayas or the Switzerland in Asia. And these are some of the visions we have too, and it is possible because we grow mutually It's not that we are handicapped or we cannot grow. We can grow. Only thing is that so far now we are digital, therefore we are unlocked, digitally unlocked. We cannot be locked, but we had been geographically locked. We had been a landlocked country, landlocked country. That's why probably we couldn't move forward in the past. But I see a great future ahead mutually. As Bhutan grows, India will grow. As India grows, Bhutan will grow. And then we reach to the larger communities in the world and we will have trade with other countries. So these are very much possible, David. I see forward, look forward, and things will change by another 10, 15 years and it's possible that we will be global.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, literally, I'm not saying it to be Mr. Nice, I'm saying it because I see the possibilities of Bhutan moving forward into sort of starting to make a mark on the global stage. Like I said earlier, a lot of, a lot of, of my community members here, they don't know where Bhutan is. A lot of Westerners here in the West asking the US here, can you point on the map for me where Bhutan is? Majority will not know. And that's my point, is the idea of, uh, Bhutan could be playing a major role given the shift that is taking place on the global stage as the world moves from a unipolar into a multipolar system. So now I know, I know I read recently that Bhutan is in a process of building a major tarmac for airport to accommodate large planes. Is this meaning— is Bhutan government thinking about, uh, running the country as a tourism destination?

Uh, to be very frank, David, we are already a tourism destination. Okay. In fact, pre-COVID, uh, Bhutan used to get its second highest revenue generator— generations used to be from tourism. As all other countries during the COVID time, we had this backup and now it is gearing up. And the one which we talked about, the GMC, Gali Phu Mindfulness City, in that, in one of the sector is tourism and aviation, tourism and wellness, I would rather say. One another is logistics and aviation. These are sectors that we will focus in that. Yes, we are constructing a big international airport Already we are targeting to accommodate around 1.5 or 5 million, 5 million passengers in the beginning, and then as we go, we are thinking to double it, double it. The construction of international airport has already started. It's a big nation-building project, and, and definitely tourism is one sector. Tourism and wellness is one sector we are looking forward, uh, because of our locations, because of the country's pristine environment. As I said, carbon-negative country and a country without traffic lights and such beautiful, magnificent mountains and magnificent space people can breathe into, look into, and discover into. Uh, why not? Tourism is definitely a step and the hospitality in Bhutan that you will enjoy, you will enjoy nowhere else. It's a really different kind. Probably you might be stay— you might step 50 years backward in the— in time, but still you'll be living in a modern amenities, modern times. So this is how it is. Therefore, tourism is an important part of Bhutan.

Well, I'm gonna put Bhutan on my bucket list, so I will You have to. I am going to be going to Asia soon, but Bhutan is not on my plan this time around. But hopefully by the time the airport is completed, I will— I'll figure it out and see how I can use it.

Thank you. Thank you.

Now, let's—

You're welcome.

Well, thank you so much. I truly appreciate it. Let's move on into talking about something we don't hear much, at least for me, and I speak for myself here. I don't hear much about, which is foreign direct investments in Bhutan. Are there any countries interested in investing beside India? Because we know the history of India and Bhutan, given the long history for that. I'm talking about outsiders. Are there any countries interested now in saying to themselves, you know what, the, the global landscape is changing, and we might want to take a look at Bhutan as a place to invest.

Thank you, uh, thank you, David. And yes, yes, of course, if you talk of the past, probably our, uh, our FDI policies, uh, because of the forex, uh, reserve and all these things, uh, were not very investment friendly. And also because the geographic area We don't have much land where you can have big, big industries. So FDI probably had been limited, but still then we have so many FDIs here. Like you have basically in the wellness or in the hospitality sector, hotels like we have Six Senses, we have Uma, we have, you know, Paz, and many other foreign hotels as well. Thai-based hotel as well. And there are many Singaporeans interested to invest in carbon credits and also in other areas. We do have investors from Germany, few from US, and from Europe as well already in Bhutan. They have invested, but I would not say the scale is so much. But now we are increasing the scale. Very recently, the current government has, uh, unveil our new FDI rules and regulations where many things are made so simple and so straightforward to attract FDIs. And similarly, the Galifu Mindfulness City, uh, we will encourage all the green technologies, uh, that is, as I already say, data centers, AI-driven, agritech, forestry, tourism are some of the areas where people can invest, as well as in education and medical sectors. So, so And, and it's not limited to one country or other. Uh, we are open, uh, country-wise. We, we don't restrict country-wise. Thank you.

Very interesting you mentioned Singapore, uh, because that's a major— to me, the way I look at it, and you know the history of Singapore as being a financial hub, uh, and also for investments and so forth in Asia. But anytime you will think of Singapore investing That means they understand the opportunities and the potential, uh, sort of opportunities that exist within something. Singapore is not going to just, uh, to get in into something willy-nilly because they want to. But since you mentioned Singapore, will it make more sense for Bhutan to start reach out to, let's say, some ASEAN countries and see if they can work out something?

Yes, uh, yes, David, that's why. And again, I'll have to take you back to Galif Mind Purna City for that. We already have lots of groups, like we have group from Thailand, a big group, a construction group, a logistic group from Thailand. We have a team from Singapore, and we have from Netherlands, you know. In fact, big consultants are big— those architects are from there, but something. And similarly You know, the GMC will be following the common law of Singapore, and the financial digital assets of the financial law will be the Abu Dhabi framework. So already we have adopted this, and it will be trick to adapt to GMC. So, so already it's global. We are, we are, we will be adopting or will be accepting those laws. Already it's directed that we'll have the common— one is common law of Singapore, and then financial digital assets on financial testing is the Abu Dhabi financial rules of the framework. So, so already this is global. Yes, Bhutan as a country, they didn't do so far. That's why this GMC will be all that and global, and then slowly it will come to Bhutan in a, in a one country, two system framework. And Bhutan also has, besides GMC, we are already targeting foreign direct investments. We go to investment forums besides India, to Europe, America, to ASEAN countries, and Indonesia or Thailand or any other countries Southeast, even to Malaysia, Singapore. And we are trying to create, feature ourselves more in terms of FDI. As I said, we're making things very, very simple so that the investors are interested. We want— are making things investment friendly. So, so, David, these are all possibilities. You'll see this happening within next 5-10 years. There will be a lot of change. Thank you.

Yeah, because the way I look at it, uh, Lok, uh, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the way I look at it is that Butan, while it is a sovereign and independent state, it still can maintain its bilateral relations with India. There's nothing wrong with that. It still can maintain its relations with Nepal, nothing wrong with that. But at the same time, it has to expand its economic horizon to think about the changes on the global stage. I mean, I'm looking at it right now, for example, with what's going on in Bangladesh. I was aware of it back then when Sheikh Hasina came over to power, and we were aware of the concerns for the massive corruption. And what happened to the country? The same argument I've made back then about Sri Lanka, and look where it ends up financially. The only thing I see, for example, for Nepal— Nepal was able to jump and move on its own direction while it's still sort of its relations with the neighborhood still okay. And that is one of the reasons why I see the potentials for Bhutan in moving into that direction. But this leads me to ask you one specific question. This one has to do with the security aspects of Bhutan. Will, will the expansion of Bhutan outside the region impact its security?

No, in your opinion, it, it will not, uh, because We are already secure, we are sovereign, we are independent, and we know how to secure ourselves. So there is no security threat to Bhutan from our neighbors because we already have a very good friendship. And particularly India, the, the friendship or the relationship between India and Bhutan is beyond business and trade. You know, our relationship with India is deep and historic, from the British era to the era of Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru and Bhutan's early king to today. So, so, so we share a direct geographical border in the southern foothills, and, and, uh, we— our, our relationship is nurtured so well, it's deepened. We have an economic cooperation while keeping and nurturing the warmth of our people-to-people ties, and future will be this. So, so, so, so as we Go ahead, uh, Bhutan expanding, Bhutan beyond what we have now, uh, to the global stage, which we have to, we have to, uh, I don't see any security threat and, uh, and, uh, and I can assure that, uh, there is, that there will be no security threat.

Good, good to hear, because here's the, the way I see it. I see that, for example, India is shifting now to China. You, you are aware of the tensions that exist between the United States and India regarding the tariffs. We imposing tariffs on— so India said, hell with it, we're gonna, we're gonna pivot to China. That means they're gonna be seeking some sort of an alternative with the Chinese. And this is why— and I made, uh, actually I did a video about this, uh, Lakna, uh, uh, and in which I disclosed that if India wants to prosper, it's going to have to resolve the border issues with China. And in result, if that is resolved, it's going to impact positively all the regional countries. We're talking Bhutan, we're talking Nepal, Sri Lanka, and Bangladesh. And, and when the infrastructure, the capabilities of the Chinese in this domain As the saying goes, the sky is the limit. So I am hoping that things will work out in that direction.

Hey, thank you. I just want to mention that, uh, this, David, uh, what you talked is very correct. We are also— the region itself will benefit if India and China could come into some positive economic terms, and if they can join hands together, this will benefit the whole world. And not only this, we region. Uh, and we— everybody in Asia, probably everyone in the South Asia, SAARC country, BIMSTEC, probably is looking forward this because this will also have a global strength of the Asia, uh, towards Western, towards other, other countries. And we wish this goes ahead, though for us we do have a very good bilateral relationship with both the countries, do very close, very friendly, and time-tested ties with India. Not that kind of relationship with China, but we do trade, we do have business interactions and trading with China. So, so Bhutan is always there, and we value the friendships between the neighboring countries. Thank you.

Well, we are very— I'm very— I'm really grateful that you were able to carve out time for us to share your perspective about your country's vision for economic vision, financial stability, and the prosperity of the Bhutanese people. So I'm— well, the community is very, very grateful. Before I'll give you the last word, I want to say thank you to, uh, uh, one of, uh, Arch Crusader, an avid supporter of the channel. Thank you so much for your Super Sticker. Truly, truly appreciate it. So, uh, I want to give you the last word before I let you go, and I know this is not going to be the only time you're gonna be in the channel. You will be coming back here to update the community about the developments of Bhutan, because once again, I do see the possibilities, I do see the potentials for Bhutan, and I'm gonna make sure to travel all the way to your country to see with my own eyes, because that's how I report to my community. I'll give you the last word.

Thank you, David. Uh, firstly, what I would say is if you are ever coming to Bhutan just don't come to see Bhutan, come to feel it. Now, come to feel it. You— I can guarantee you that you may arrive as a visitor in Bhutan, but you leave with a piece of Bhutan in your heart. And I can say to the community members, audience, everybody, that our heart is larger than our geography. We will welcome you with warmth and love. I would say this, and In the closing remark, I would just say thank you for giving me this opportunity and to talk about Bhutan. I would say Bhutan has given me a deep sense of gratitude for life, and I believe anyone who visits Bhutan will feel the same. Believe, seeing is believing. You're welcome. Thank you.

Oh, my pleasure. It's truly been a pleasure. I'm sure we will have His Excellency Lakhanath Sharma back here on the channel to share with us more, uh, of his insights and also, like I said earlier, the vision of where Bhutan is moving forward. So, so on behalf of the entire community, I wanted to say thank you for carving out time for us, and we look forward to seeing you next time.

Thank you, thank you so much, David. It was wonderful. Thank you.

My pleasure. As always, by the way, remember to join me at 12:15 for my conversation about the upcoming summit of the Russian president Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump, which is going to take place in Alaska. As you know, I wrote a book about Russia, so I kind of mentioned the possibilities of certain dynamics taking place regarding these two countries. So I will be talking about the upcoming summit at 12:15. And till then, I hope you enjoyed listening to His Excellency Lakhanat Sharma, and I look forward to seeing you next time. As always, remember, geopolitics impacts your daily life in more ways than one. Till next time, guys, bye-bye.