Business Systems For Engineering Firms

The systems and processes stuff isn't sexy. Like a lot of people like the concept of going out and jagging that new big client and the whole bringing the new big client back to the office and all that sort of stuff. But if you don't have the right systems and processes to actually deliver properly, you're going to have lost profit on that project. You're going to probably make a fool of yourself.

I am super excited to be joined by Josh Stone from Ignite Coaching. He specializes in helping engineering firms scale to 10 million and beyond. He's worked with well over 100 business owners directly and he's got some pretty exceptional results. Recently I was invited to speak at his Mastermind group about Systemology and got some really amazing feedback and it made me realize that many engineers, they need help getting their systems and processes sorted. So today we thought, well, let's team up and build a best practice critical client flow for engineering firms. So the critical client flow, or CCF for short, it's a tool that we use at Systemology, pretty much just answer the question, where do we get started? What systems do we put in place first? Which systems do we need to install to remove key person dependency? So it's a little bit of a blueprint for building a scalable business. And while every engineering firm is a little bit different, there's definitely a lot to be learned from industry best practice. And I think Josh knows this engineering industry better than most. So really excited to dive in. So first things first. Just wanted to welcome you to the call.

Thanks mate, good to hear. Good, good to be here.

So, yeah, maybe just to start, before we jump into the critical client flow, I'm going to get you to put yourself in the shoes of an engineering client and I'd love, like, what if we were to describe who we're going to be building this critical client flow for? What are some key characteristics that kind of would be stand out for you?

Yeah, so like this is super easy because I'm fresh off. So for one of our. Yeah, for the mastermind that you talked about, we often interview clients once a month. Just clients are doing awesome stuff. So I've just come off a call with husband and wife couple. They run a nearly 2 million per year business, about 12 staff and they service purely the, I guess the resident, the residential land subdivision space. So clients who are property developers. So we can, we can use that.

Yeah, easy. All right, well let me, I'm going to jump into my iPad here so we can both see this and then we'll Just walk through this if you can give me the thumbs up just so I know that's coming through clear for you.

Yep, yep.

Rock and roll. All right, so if we think of that engineering firm, I suppose another couple of questions. Just thinking about the size of team that they've got. Is it a small firm, what sort of size are they at?

About 12 people. So two teams. I mean depends how much you want to go into it, but sort of two teams, two team leaders and then the business owner is above the two team leaders. So yeah, about 12 people in the business.

Yeah. Perfect. And they're still involved in quite a bit of the day to day operations or like are they leaning into probably more certain departments over other departments?

Yeah, I mean they've, I mean again if we're using this example, they've done a lot of work this year to get off the tools in terms of putting, putting systems and processes in place in terms of you know, project kickoff meetings, project delivery processes, project closeout. They've got their teams to a point where the team leaders are delivering the project quite well and then the, the director of the business kind of oversees, does the final sign off, does the final review and that freed him up a lot more to do more strategic marketing and business development and can do touch points with clients and that sort of stuff.

I reckon they're going to be perfect for us here. So if we run through like the idea here is to answer that question, well where do you start and what are some best practice systems thinking about that engineering client? What, what is the ideal client for them? Like if when I think of ideal client it's the person who pays their advertised prices, refers, friends and family is a pleasure to deal with and they probably want hundreds more of those clients if they're could get their hands on them. What, what type of client would that be?

Yeah, so they're probably the ideal client would be a medium sized property developer, someone that does maybe 2 to 400 lot per year in terms of how many lots they deliver to the ground. Yeah. So project range could be, look at good range from 2 million to, to 10 million in terms of construction value depending on the size of the project. But yeah, really not quite that tier one developer but probably a tier two kind of developer that willing to develop great relationships with their consultant team values that sort of trusted advisor kind of status, happy to pay good fees and like you said before mate, just a good, like a pleasure to work with and good quality repeat work.

Awesome. And when they find this person or first start Working typically what's the first product or service that they would be selling? Like almost like the gateway into the rest of their product line. Where do they get started?

Yeah, so that's an interesting one. So like typically when you're trying to get a new client in the land subdivision space they'll want and so you put yourself in your clients shoes, they're looking at a parcel of land that they want to subdivide. Like is that parcel of land going to return them that yield that they need on their investment. So a lot of the times developers will get a consultant team in to do like high level feasibility or due diligence, depending on how you want to run it. As that consultant, you either do that stuff. Sometimes people do that for free to kind of then go, I'll do this work for you for free to kind of help you win the site or buy the site to give you confidence that it's going to stack up. Some people charge for that. It just depends on your business model. So either it's the due diligence on the site right at the start to see whether it's going to stack up financially. And a lot of the times the engineering consultancy will look at like Stormwater, Network, Earthworks, all that sort of stuff and do like a high level sort of feasibility. So it's either that due diligence package or once they bought the site then they're straight into like concept design.

Perfect. If you were to say best practice or and I know there's depending on the individual and there's always little variations and depending but without any of those, if you were to generalize and say hey, without knowing the details I would suggest someone starts here. Do you have thoughts on what works best in engineering world or for engineering firms?

Do you mean in terms of like where the consultant would start in the first package of work they do for the client?

Yeah, as in do you suggest that they do charge and break out the due diligence package separate or is it something where you're kind of like no, you should jump straight in.

Oh mate, I'm always a believer in getting paid for what you do. I think sometimes we can, we can adopt the people pleasing personality and sometimes do stuff for free. And we've got to think about like particularly if they're a new client, we want to set the relationship, we want to set the standards for the relationship right from day one. So if you're good at what you do and you've got great results for your past clients and you've Got a good reputation and you get approached by a new developer who wants to get you to run your eye over a potential site they're looking for. I'd be, I'd be charging for that because then that sets the standard of the relationship. We don't do stuff for free. We charge, we're, we're good at what we do. We place the work on our time.

Yeah, awesome. And then I reckon that's perfect. I think a lot of firms, especially at the level that you're talking about, undercharge or they don't value themselves enough. And I think that's a great way to kind of get that into alignment as far as best practice for the way that these engineering firms would get the attention of the target audience. So thinking about the property developer, I think probably, I mean, word of mouth is probably something that quite a few of these developers, Sorry, these firms would have. What are some other traffic sources that you've seen that consistently work? And even if we pick two or three.

Yeah, so definitely word of mouth. Having a good. I guess and this might be a little bit of word of mouth, but having like a good referral partnership in place. So like, if you think about. So in, in this particular engineer's world, typically a developer is going to approach like a town planner as an example too, to know, can you help us with the due diligence on this project? So if you have a good relationship with a lot of well known, well positioned town planners, they're going to tip you into work because they're like, cool, we can do the town planning, but here's a good consultancy that we know. Yeah, so definitely word of mouth, definitely referral partners. And then the other thing is I'm a big fan of like the more leverage strategies, so something like a LinkedIn strategy as well. So I think you can have like, yeah, word of mouth referral partners. Like a LinkedIn strategy where you're doing good, quality, consistent content on your LinkedIn page, you're reaching out to and connecting with your potential future ideal clients, you're building relationships with them. We've had a lot of great success with our members in terms of just building good momentum, using LinkedIn to develop good strategic relationships for future clients.

Yeah, love it. Are there any other ones that you think stand out or. They're pretty good places to get started.

I mean, they're pretty good places. I mean a lot of. I'm trying to, I'm trying to not break the trend, but like, so like networking events and all that sort of stuff. Have their place. But yeah, I just, I think sometimes people go to networking events to then hang out with the same people that they already know and don't really get outside of their comfort zone to actually go and meet new people. But then they can almost pat themselves on the back to say, I went to this networking event, Shame I didn't meet anyone. But it's just like you've got to look at the value of your time in terms of. Is taking an entire day out of your week to go to a networking event, hang out with the same people that you already know, and not get any leads for your business, a good use of your time?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, makes sense. And I think oftentimes people don't do what works. And coming up with that strategy consistently, like the three that you've mentioned here, if you had a system, a process in place, if it was, if you're every single day you're connecting with, you know, potential prospects or people that could become clients, if you're consistently posting content on there, that's calling people to kind of take that next couple of steps or at least stick their hand up and doing it consistently, even consistently, having a way to build referral partners, connect and reconnect and touch base with those referral partners to build the relationships. I think alone for a lot of engineering firms would be sufficient, especially with the size of the projects as well. Like we're talking, you know, that ideal client, 200 to 400 lots. You're not going to need hundreds and hundreds of these types of clients before your, your engineering firm is all full. So I think that that works out to be a great strategy. What when people then start to inquire, like, how to. Typically inquiries come through, is it visiting the website and filling out a form and picking up the phone? Or maybe it's a direct message by LinkedIn, or maybe it's all of the above. When someone's ready to take that next step after you've got their attention. Yeah, what Did I miss any there?

I think that's a pretty good. So most of the time, like, if you think about word of mouth, like, a developer will likely call you and go, hey, I was chatting to a mate at a barbecue on the weekend. You've come up in conversation. We're doing a new subdivision. Can we have a chat about, like, how you might be able to help us? Same with like a referral partner, you might get a call from, say, the town planner to say, hey, one of our top clients has just come in and they're looking at a new 200 lot subdivision, I'd really like to put you forward. Do you have capacity to take that on and then like LinkedIn. LinkedIn could be a little bit different to that. Like yeah, you might get a message from them or you might be just chatting with them over LinkedIn messages and just kind of a natural progression of that chat might lead to hey, you know this seems to be like the conversation is flowing. Do you want to catch up for a coffee or do you want to do a virtual teams thing or something like that? So yeah, all of those would lead that sort of initial meeting or that.

Initial inquiry and off that initial inquiry. Is there any like again based on your best practice and what you see, I'm assuming this maybe some sort of little qualification or someone kind of, you know, does a little bit of digging just to see. Yep, you know, that's coming from a legitimate email or whatever. Great. This, this is looking good. And then there's probably a next step. What, what usually happens in those couple of steps?

Mate, this is so even, even within, if you talk about a property developer there is still, there are still bands of so that sort of tier 2 property developer there are still bands of like a through to D grade clients in that kind of bracket. And I really encourage our members to kind of like you said, do that due diligence first. Like I think a lot of, I see a lot of business owners get stuck where they accept work from a, a degrade client. They might take it on because they've got a hole in their pipeline or something like that. Their marketing is not working as well and they say yes to a client that they know is going to be painful or stuck their time and attention. And I think that qualification process is really important just to kind of go yeah, like and there's a whole bunch of criteria that you can put to that qualification process. But are they, you know, are they, are they prominent? Are they good to work with? What's their reputation? Like what's the pipeline of work like with them? Maybe I'll call a few people who I know who worked on a project for them. Are they good payers? Do they haggle over price? Like I think there's a bunch of qualification questions or like you said, a process to put in place where you just kind of vet that person or that client before you say yes to working with them.

Oh hey, I know you're tuned in right now so I'll keep this super quick but you like awesome YouTube videos, don't you? Well there's not really that many YouTube channels that create great content about how to systemize your small business. So I want to make sure that you catch every video that I publish. So if you haven't already, firstly give this video the thumbs up and then go ahead and subscribe to my channel. You can even hit the bell notification to make sure that you're the first to know when I publish anything. So go ahead, do it right now, I'll wait a sec, then I will transfer you back to the video. Yeah, and maybe some of that qualification happens before you hop on the phone with them and some of them might happen after. Once you figure out what it is that they want. Generally after that first inquiry comes in, what happens next? Is it booking in a consult, maybe it's online through a zoom or is it sort of meeting in person? What, what do you say generally is the best way to go?

Yeah, like generally you would have maybe one or two catch ups with that particular person, like you said, either in person or over teams or zoom to kind of get a bit of a feel for them. Like I think a lot of the times if you can get in the room with your future ideal client and showcase your, your expertise and your, your skills and all that sort of stuff, you can often help that process along for them making a decision about moving, moving forward with you. But yeah, typically it's a, an initial one or two meetings, a bit of a meet and greet. This is my business. Tell me a bit about yours. I'd be really encouraging in those initial meetings to look at ways where you can ask different questions. Like what? Yeah. What are your pain points? You wouldn't ask that. But like, yeah, really starting to understand like what their problems are, what sort of help do they need? I think the more that you can cement yourself early in that relationship with someone that really cares and that, you know, you want to go to that trusted adviser status, you're just doing the best job you possibly can to give that person or that client a good impression of you. And then once you start to move down the path of submitting fee proposals and that sort of stuff, you know, it just helps the process.

Yeah. And for this critical client flow, focusing in on the due diligence package. So let's say that you met with, you know, the inquiry came in, you did a little bit of kick the tires, look around the website, a little bit of qualification there, you meet with them in person, there might even be a little bit more qualification at that point in time or it will be more Obvious to you at that point, if they're the right fit. Generally what happens next after that? Is it, is there a proposal or a. Hey, this is what I'm going to suggest next. What does that look like?

Yeah, so typically it's the request for fee proposal. So it's like. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yes, typically it's a request for people. We've got this project, we've got this site, we'd like to move forward with it. You know, we've got our existing consultant team potentially, but we really like the sound of you. You've come highly recommended through the Town Planner as an example. We'd love you to submit a fee proposal. So here's the documents, here's the scope of work. Can you please come back with a fee proposal? And typically, like, it depends on how that client works. They might ask you for a fee proposal for, you know, that first stage of work to get a bit of a feel for that first package and then maybe a budget estimate for the balance. Or they might ask you for a fee proposal for the whole lot.

So the fee proposal is effectively the due diligence package.

Fee proposal will be. They'll probably include in that fee proposal a cost to do that due diligence package. So the fee proposal might be, we'll spend a week worth of our time looking over the site, running concept designs and we'll give you, we'll give you a rough cost estimate to do that project.

Perfect. So I'll leave that then as the fee proposal. Now there some people you're, you're going to need to follow up. Some people are just going to pay or get started straight away. There may be a process in there for following those up. And then is it something for that fee proposal? Would they pay upfront or do they pay usually at completion? What's generally best practice? There's.

Yeah, I mean, just answer the question in the follow up. I reckon like that we talk a lot to our members. Like the fortune is in the follow up. Like a lot of times you have to follow up more than you think. And a lot of people leave, I reckon heaps of money on the table, just not following up. So they don't have a good system to remind them to go, hey, we submitted this fee proposal two weeks ago. Something dings and goes, hey, you should follow that fee proposal up. So that's just a. Yeah, side note, which is like the follow up is so key and having a system in place to track where all your leads are up to track where you follow Up. Sorry, your fee proposals are up to. And just doing those follow ups religiously is key.

Yeah, love it. So that probably also. And because each one of these boxes ultimately ends up being a system or a process or maybe a handful of systems depending on how complex it is. And you know, underneath the qualification, there's probably a bit in up somewhere up here as well where you're like entering the details into some sort of CRM. And then that way you can kind of start to collect and have a central record where you're putting all of this information. And part of that then the follow up, that sales process. Yeah. Getting very clear on what are the touch points once you kind of follow up. Is that. Yeah. Is it the fee proposal has a button at the end that links them over to a 0 invoice checkout? Or is it something like how is the green light usually given?

Yeah. So typically on a fee proposal you'll have a back page that says if you want to proceed with engaging us, just fill out your details, sign on the dotted line and we'll get going. Typically no money is transacted at that point. So in a typical relationship and like difficult client relationships, that's a separate conversation because I usually encourage people to get payment up front if they know the person is difficult or they, they don't have a good track record of paying people on time. But usually you get a signed fee proposal back that says great Dave, we'd love to engage you to do this project. Here's a signed fee proposal. Can you come back to us on when you can get started?

Perfect. And then there's probably. That's the green light to go ahead. There's probably steps that then need to be gone through to get people. I don't know if there's a particular project management platform or something that's quite common in the engineering firm for that are tailored to running these types of projects or if people are just using, you know, the classic basecamp ClickUp Monday, those types of things.

Yeah, I mean a lot of everyone's different. I would say that probably the most common software I see in our industry is Total Synergy. So and, and so Total Synergy is not a, not necessarily a project management software, but like you get a signed fee proposal come in, you get that project and entered into tunnel Synergy, which means that your team can start putting time against their timesheet, you can start tracking, you know, how much work you've done on the project. You can start doing your weekly and monthly reporting against that project. The Total Synergy is good and there's other software out there, but I would say 50% of our members use Total Synergy, which is why I'm referring to it. And then like project management software, like actually managing the project. Yeah, you've got your Mondays, Monday.com, your trellos, your asana, those sorts of things.

Yeah. And there's probably a combination at this setup project point, there's the setting it up, which is the back end for your team. There's probably a component of getting extra details from the client, whether it's filling out forms, like more details about the project also.

Yeah. So that would all be covered in your project kickoff plan. So your project kickoff process would have all of that in terms of like, yeah, all the details on the client. What have we been signed up for, what's the value of the fees, how many phases are there? And then as an internal team, you'd be sitting down at a project kickoff meeting going, all right, this is the first phase. We're going to map out the next two months in terms of work. We're going to plug that into Total Synergy in terms of our forecasting, in terms of the work that we're actually going to do on this project. And then it would be usually then you go and meet with a client and go, all right, Mr. And Mrs. Client, you know, you've obviously engaged to do this project. We've gone away as a team. We've gone away and thought about the first phase. Here's our program, here's our deliverables. Well, here's what we're going to do. We'd like to come in and have a bit of a kickoff meeting with you, just run you through that and just make sure we're on the same page.

Perfect. And then after that kickoff, you probably go into then generating the proposal, which is kind of like doing the work in this example. So maybe I'll call that the generate proposal. And then under here, by the sounds of things, there's probably going to be a handful of other milestones and steps, whether or not you need to go out on site, who you need to chat with and running some calculations. So there's probably a range of different milestones, some of which could be then broken out into more detailed subsystems. But I think to start a high level process that explains what needs to be done works well. And once the proposal's done, is there some sort of handover meeting or there's probably some final presentation around, hey, here's what we've created and hopefully then you're opening the door into ongoing work. What normally happens for that bit?

Yeah. So if we, if we follow this particular civil consultant who does land subdivisions through, they would do like the typical, I guess, phases of work. They do that due diligence that we talked about to make sure the numbers stack up and all the, you know, the dollars work. Then they go into like concept design, which is preparing usually like a bunch of reports and schematic designs to then submit to like a local government or local authority to go, hey, this is how we think we're going to do that.

Is that part of the fee proposal, like the due diligence or that's the step after they've get. They've got the green light after due diligence or that's part of due diligence.

Yeah, that's so like in that, in that initial fee proposal above follow up, that would usually list out the stages. So they'd say, Dear Mr. And Mrs. Client, here's the things that we want to do for you. We're going to do initial due diligence and this is going to cost you 10 grand. We're getting, going to do concept design, which will cost you 15 grand. And they break their fee proposals down into the different stages to say this is the life cycle of the project.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, they do concept design and then once they get approved and okayed, then they go into what's called detailed design, where they do the very detailed models of like the earthworks and the retaining walls and the stormwater system and the water articulation and the sewerage and all that sort of stuff that gets the green light and then they move into the construction phase. So usually that kind of civil consultant will then help their developer client like pull together what's called the tender package to kind of go out to the market to like a civil contractor or three or four civil contractors and get price. They'll vet that, they'll pull together the contract and then they'll usually oversee that work happening on site. So they'll actually then jump into what's called a superintendent role where they oversee the construction happening on site. And so like typically a finished product for that is actually a finished subdivision. Like with the blocks where the builders are then ready to come in and start building the houses.

Yeah. If we broke in. So when someone signs up to a due diligence package, are they expecting like, are they buying to go all the way through or is effectively there's, there's points along here where, you know, they've signed to proceed and up to a certain point, like is it some of these steps like where's the line where either another decision might need to be made if we're continuing with this particular engineering firm or. Yeah. Just so we go where the line is. Because you're right, there's probably through to build. There's going to be a truckload of stuff as well.

Yeah. So yeah, you're right. Like if we stick with just doing that initial phase of due diligence. Yeah. So if they, if they submit a proposal, just do the due diligence. So it might be. We'll just help you do the due diligence on this. On this project. It might cost you five or ten grand to do that. And then. Yeah, there might be a hold point there where the developer goes, this is a go, no go for us in terms of it's way more expensive to do. Yeah. To build this site than we thought or actually it's on budget or it's looking pretty good. And that's kind of the whole point to then go, you know, to this consultant. This is great. Thank you for doing that due diligence. We'd like to then, yes, you're right. Give us another proposal to finish the rest of the project off.

Yeah. So it's almost like there's some sort of meeting, almost like a milestone of great, let's have proceed. Which at that point, effectively they're trying to on sell or win the entire project at that point in time.

Yeah, true.

Perfect. Look, I reckon this is fantastic. I think for engineering firms that are watching this, the main thing to think about is through this lens, what does their business look like and where are the holes? Like sometimes it might be obvious to them, oh wow, we don't have that step in place. That's why that's a problem. Or this is always something that falls over and it's dependent on this particular person.

I know.

I mean you've worked with a huge number of engineering firms and every firm is different. Are there if you were to generalize particular areas where you just go. There is quite often problems here. Like. Yeah. Whether it's from lead generation or sales or.

Or.

Yeah. Are there any commonalities that you spot for common areas within the critical client flow?

Yeah. So it's usually the. Usually most consultancies. Like, particularly if you look over the last three years or so, like the actual winning of the work hasn't been too hard, there's been a plethora of work. Usually the Referrals or just good repeat works giving them a good pipeline of work. Where I see most business owners falling down is delivery. So like you think about like the progression is a, like if you start your consultancy and you're a single business owner and then you start to bring on team, a lot of stuff still dependent on you and you become the bottleneck and that's where systems and processes is so key just to help be really help your help train your team and get them really clear on what, what it looks like to deliver a great project. Follow the, follow the checklist or the process and that that's the path to then that business owner leveraging their time more to quote unquote, get out of the weeds. They've got a good team working well on projects, they can go and focus more on the bd.

Yeah, yeah, love it. I think, I mean that therefore, any engineering firm hopefully should get some aha moments, especially when you're in that size that you were talking about, you know, anywhere up to 10, 20 staff somewhere in there. If the business owner is still heavily dependent in the delivery of that core product or service, it means you're going to have trouble scaling because if either you or a certain key team member doesn't come in, that thing isn't going to happen, which is going to slow things up. Or if someone moves on and you're not really clear on what's getting done, then that's going to create some real challenges. So we always suggest starting here and getting that documented. A big part of the work that we do at Systemology is around capturing what current best practices. Because I think for a lot of engineering firms, just making what you're currently doing repeatable sometimes gets you huge wins because a lot of people struggle with repeatability. And then as you start to get really good at this, you know, you work with someone like Josh who then can look at it and go, oh, based on industry best practice and what I know and looking at your entire critical client flow and systems, if you just install this best practice system, that best practice system, you're going to see huge growth in those areas. So it's kind of like, yeah, a little bit about, you know, kind of feel like you want to build a systems culture and you want to get everything in place. So when you work with a coach like Josh, it's easy for you to say, well, here's what we're doing, here's what's currently working. And then it's infinitely easier for a great coach to begin be able to Go, ah, I know what I need to do. But you probably see it a lot. Sometimes you work with a client and you just go in and it's just a mess. Like the first part of coaching is just trying to figure out what are you guys doing.

Yeah.

So I don't know. Yeah. If you had any final sort of insights or suggestions for engineering firms to kind of grow and scale.

I think, mate, like it is, we talk about this a lot. Like the systems and processes stuff isn't sexy. Like it like a lot of people like the concept of going out and jagging that new big client and like, you know, the whole bringing the new, the new big client back to the office and all that sort of stuff. But if you don't have the right systems and processes to actually deliver properly, you're going to have lost profit on that project. You're going to probably make a fool of yourself. You're bringing a new client into a business that isn't as well as established as you probably promised. So like we literally interviewed a couple today who have just spent the last eight months systemizing their business. So they've now just gone to four day weeks. So the whole team does four day weeks and they just talked about systems and processes has been the reason they've been able to do that because. And once a month on a Friday they all get the team together and just do systems and processes. So how can we make this business more efficient so that we can keep doing the four day a week? So that you can keep having three day week, three day weekends.

Yeah. And I know a lot of engineering firm owners, like intuitively they know this. I mean engineering is about process. So it's almost like the plumber with the leaky pipes that they know that there is a process for the way that things need to be done. And for whatever reason sometimes life gets in the way. And systems and processes always important but they don't feel urgent. And there's probably 10 other things that fighting for your attention and really it gets the attention that it needs. Yet that oftentimes is one of those critical elements for scale.

It's the single thing that's going to help them build a lifestyle. Business like you can't step away from a business that still requires you to be involved and still requires all the knowledge in your head. Like until you build systems and processes and then train your staff to run those systems and processes without you, you're just going to be trapped in the business.

Yeah, absolutely. Love it. I'm going to pop a link through to Ignite Coaching so people can kind of explore your work a little bit more. If people want to connect with you. Is there any other place that we should point them?

Website and LinkedIn channel? Probably the two main ones, yeah.

Awesome. Appreciate your share today. Thanks Josh. Thanks Dave.