Why Your Best Employees Quit (And How To Fix It)

You can't have a great customer experience if you don't have great employees to help deliver that experience, right? Experience needs to be delivered. And so while our customer experience is incredibly important, our team member experience, our employee experience is equally important, arguably maybe even more important.

Welcome back to part 2 of my interview with Joey Coleman, back by popular demand. I know last time we were chatting, we chatted about his first book, Never Lose a Customer Again. And we just touched briefly right at the end on his second book, Never Lose an Employee Again. And I thought, we need to go deeper on this. We need a whole episode on this. I think it is one of the most important processes in business. And obviously we need to keep customers equally. We need to keep team members as well. I think the reality is losing an employee, it can be one of the most expensive things in business. Because all of that IP that's trapped in their brain, they develop skills and talents and learn how you do things and help to improve the intellectual IP in the business. And then if it just walks out the door, that's pretty costly, let alone trying to find someone new and plug them in and train them up. So the good news is there is a system to fix this. This is what Joey's developed. So maybe first things first, uh, welcome back, Joey.

David, thank you so much. It's great to be back. And thanks to everybody who's joining in for round 2. I'm flattered to be back by popular demand. I appreciate the invitation. And I'm looking forward to talking about the other side of the coin, right? There's two sides to the same coin, the customer side and the employee side, and each are valuable and important and worthy of our attention and focus. And I'm excited we're going to get to have a discrete conversation focusing on the employee side.

Yeah, well, I'd love to do this one maybe a little bit different, almost approach this one like we're approaching an SOP, like a standard operating procedure, thinking about what the steps are. Last time we talked some of the key ideas and talked a little bit more high level, whereas I think this time we could get down into some tactics. Just before we go to like, well, step 1, maybe you can give us just a little bit of a paint the picture, why you see this as such an important topic, why did you even write a book about it? And then let's dive into the first 100 days of a new team member and what that SOP might look like.

Yeah. So as you and the listeners may know, when I first started out in business, my main focus was around customer experience. And I had been in the customer experience space for about 10 whole minutes before I realized that you can't have a great customer experience if you don't have great employees to help deliver that experience, right? Experience needs to be delivered. And so while our customer experience is incredibly important, our team member experience, our employee experience is equally important. Arguably maybe even more important, because we need somebody to deliver on those experiences. Now, the reason I ended up writing two books is, first of all, I have a tendency to write long books. Would have been like an 800-page book if we tried to combine it all in one. But the other reason I wrote two books is because customer experience usually falls under the responsibility of the customer service department, the customer care, customer success, maybe marketing, maybe sales. Employee experience falls under HR, as you would say in Australia, or HR, as we would say here in the States, the human resources department, the talent department. So they're two very, very different departments. And as a result, the people who are in charge of figuring out the plans, the strategies, the operations are two totally different people. So I wanted to write a second book that was focused more towards those people leaders, those founders, those CEOs, those small business owners, those HR leads who might be focused with a different question on a daily basis, which is, how do I make this the best place to work? As opposed to, how do I make this product or the service the best possible to get more customers to buy it or sign up for it or take part of it?

Yeah. And I love the way that your brain works because you are a systems thinker. When I read the book, like, It is a process.

I'm flattered. I aspire to grow up to be a systems thinker. So I am very flattered and I will be playing that clip for my team to let them know that the expert on systems thinks I'm a systems guy. I am flattered and honored by that kind compliment.

You think in terms of systems, whether you follow systems.

Oh, you're hedging your bets. Don't hedge your bets now, David. You were great with the first part. We'll cut that part out when I share that clip with my team.

I can say that because, yeah. It's from one founder to another. I get it.

I love it. I love it.

So when we think of this as a process, and the sign of a good system for me is something that is general enough that it can be applied to lots of different scenarios, but not so general that it doesn't have enough specific detail that it's not useful. You kind of need to find this middle-of-the-road ground. And when we think about, um, all of the things we could systemize when it comes to looking after new team members, um, one of the things that you focused in on is, is that first 100 days and what, what happens in that time. And every business is going to be a little bit different, but I'd love to kind of go high level and think a general enough system, but specific enough that someone goes, "This is really useful." And then really, that's the starting point. And then they think about it in terms of their business. So where do you start, or where do you think the start of this journey begins when it comes to welcoming a new team member on board?

Absolutely. Well, as to anybody who enjoyed our first conversation together will know, I like to think in systems, and I like to think in a journey. So what is the journey from when somebody first considers becoming an employee of your organization up to the point where they are your most valued member of the team, where they are a zealous advocate? Anytime you have a new position open, they're actively recruiting people to join your company, to join your firm. And I believe there are 8 phases to that journey. Now, what might be useful is for me to give a real quick overview of the 8 phases, just so listeners and viewers kind of know the general direction we're going. And then we can dive deep into each one and talk about the systems that need to be under each element of that journey.

Perfect.

The first phase is the Assess phase. Now, by the way, all of these phases start with the letter A. Not meant to confuse you. The theory is if you get them all right, it's like getting straight A's from your team. And for those of you that are familiar with the Customer Methodology, you'll recognize that they're almost exactly the same 8 phases. There's one distinction, which I'll call out when we get to it. But the reason they're almost exactly the same is the journey of a human being coming to work with an organization or an entity, whether as a customer or as an employee, building familiarity, building loyalty over time, is the same journey because it's a human. See, that's the thing that connects all these jobs together. Whether you have a product business or a service business, whether you operate online or offline or a combination of both, whether you operate domestically or internationally or a combination of both, chances are your employees are humans. Now, some of our listeners are going, "Well, wait, I've got AI agents that are employees too." That's a separate podcast for a separate conversation, or we can address that later. But the moral of the story is, in most organizations, there still is a hefty human component. So this principle and these methodologies are built on the idea that when we're interacting with humans, if we meet the human where we're at, where they're at, and hold their hand, we can transition them from one phase to the next in their journey or relationship with us. So what are the 8 phases? The first phase is the Assess phase. In the Assess phase, a prospective employee is trying to decide whether or not they want to come work for you. They're checking out your job posting or your one ad or your job listing. They're probably going on your website to see if there's any information about your culture. They might be going on LinkedIn to see who they know that also works at your organization or is connected with your organization. So they can get a little intelligence. They're applying or submitting a resume. They're going through your interview process. They're assessing whether or not they want to work for you at the same time that you are assessing whether or not you want to work— have them join your team and work for you. We then come to Phase 2. This is the only one that's different from the customer side. Phase 2 is called the Accept Phase. The Accept phase has two component pieces. We, the employer, extend an offer to the candidate who we hope will accept the offer and take the job. And if we're lucky, that candidate accepts the offer. They transition from being a candidate to being a new hire. Almost immediately after that, they go to Phase 3. Phase 3 is a phrase— is built around a concept and a phrase that many folks may not be familiar with. I'd be willing to bet the majority of listeners have heard the phrase buyer's remorse. What you might not heard of is new hires remorse. It's the exact same thing as buyer's remorse, scientifically proven that immediately after accepting a job offer, we begin to doubt the decision we just made. Oh, I should have negotiated for a better salary. You know, I got 2 weeks of vacation. I should have tried to bargain for 3. Oh, you know, I interviewed with, you know, the hiring person, but I never actually met anyone on the team that I'm going to work with. Ooh, maybe I should have met the people on the team before I accepted the offer. What am I doing? Maybe this was a terrible decision. Meanwhile, we're back at the office high-fiving. They accepted the offer. They're going to start to work for us. While at our new hire's home, they're saying, ooh, this could be the worst decision I've ever made. In the Affirm phase, you need to reaffirm the choice they made to accept the job offer and talk to them in that time period between when they accept the offer and when they show up for the first day on the job. The first day on the job brings us to Phase 4. Yes, folks, the first day on the job is 4 phases into the journey. Most employers think that's the first day. No, no, no, friends. There were lots of days before that that you probably weren't paying as much attention to as you could have. But make no mistake, the 4th phase, the Activate phase, the first day on the job is crucially important. In the Activate phase, you want to energize the relationship. You want this new employee to know that working with you is going to be unlike any job they've ever had. Before. We then come to the 5th phase, the Acclimate phase. This begins on the 2nd day on the job and lasts for weeks, maybe even months, as this new hire acclimates to your way of doing business, your operating systems, the various roles and responsibilities and requirements of the job, the relationships they're going to have to manage within the job. How are they getting used to your way of operating? They then come to phase 6, the Accomplish phase. Now, the Accomplish phase varies dramatically depending on the role and the type of person we're hiring. In the Accomplish phase, the newly hired employee accomplishes the goal that they had when they originally accepted the job offer. Now, a lot of founders, a lot of leaders think, well, the goal they had was to get a paycheck. Folks, those were the ante-up chips to sit down at the table. They had a bigger goal they were trying to accomplish. Getting new skill sets, a new title. Yes, maybe a raise in salary, but also a raise in responsibility. Better things at this company than at the company they were working for in the past. Have they accomplished their goal? And when they accomplished it, did you, the organization, the team, their boss, their co— colleagues and coworkers, did you celebrate that accomplishment with them? If they accomplish their goal, if they make it as far as Phase 6, We have the right and the privilege to move them into Phase 7, the Adopt phase. This is when an employee becomes loyal to us and only us. They get a call from a headhunter, they're not even answering the call. A new competitor opens up across town, they're not going to consider going to interview with them, and they're not going to be responsive to a job offer from them. They are bought in. And if, and only if, we get someone all the way to Phase 7, Adopt, do we have the right, the privilege, the opportunity to take them to Phase 8, the advocate phase, where they become a raving fan singing our praises far and wide. They're going on Glassdoor unprompted to write reviews. We've got an opening in the firm. They are actively recruiting the smartest people they know, the best people they've ever worked with in any job before to come work here. Why? Because they're bought into our mission. They're committed to being part of it, and they want the best, the brightest to be joining them. Those are the 8 phases. And by the way, when we promote someone and we move them to a different position, they go back to Phase 1. They start the process all over again. They assess, do I really want this promotion? Okay, yeah, I think I'll take the promotion. Oh my gosh, what was I thinking taking this promotion? I'm gonna have so much more headache. Yeah, I'm gonna make more money, but I've got so much more responsibility. And they go through the phases again. So this cycle is a circle. And at any given point, everyone on your team might be at a different phase in their journey. Your job as a leader is to be able to know where everyone's at and to be actively working to get them from the phase they're currently in to the next phase in the journey.

I love that. And I got this visual of a pipeline where you're moving people along in your team. They're going to be at certain points. And then I'm imagining at each stage in this, there's going to be little tactics and tools and steps and things that you can do to help them move into that next level. So from a tactical point of view, because I'm imagining there's going to be a range of different tactics we can do underneath each one, if, if we pick maybe the top 2 or 3 underneath each, and we can kind of go through and just pick out the the ones that you go, oh, at the Assess phase, it's critical that you get this and this and this in place. Like, if I think that would be really helpful and kind of help us to map out this SOP. So starting with Assess, like, what's, what are those first few things you gotta nail?

Let's dive into it. The first thing that most organizations miss is the job description or the ad or the promotion that says we're looking for someone to fill this role. All too often we see in the marketplace, especially today, blind job postings where they kind of list, here's the title, here's the role, we're not going to tell you what company it is, but here's everything we do. And the fascinating thing to me about blind job descriptions is I can take your description for the open position for project manager and probably use it for all of your competitors, all the other companies in your town, than anybody else in the country that's looking for a project manager. There's nothing special about it. There's nothing unique about it. The secret in the assess phase is you've got to let your brand spirit come through in that first listing. I should get to the end of that first listing and it should be very clear to me, this is the kind of place I definitely want to work at for the rest of my life, or this is the kind of place that I would never want work at. We should be that specific and that descriptive in our discussions of what it's like to work. Talk about what the best things are about the job, but also talk about the worst parts of the job. Be really clear in that initial description. The second tactic I would say is to make sure that you are asking the type of questions that accurately predict whether this person is going to fail or thrive in your organization. Not at the job, in your organization. Because if you're the kind of organization, for example, that, um, everybody after the end of the day of work all goes out to happy hour together, and kind of everybody in the organization does it, that's your vibe, that's your culture, that's your energy, you should be saying in the interview, Do you normally have plans after work, and would you be open to going to happy hours every single night after work to hang out with your colleagues? If they say, oh my gosh, that sounds amazing, well, we're on our way to a good culture fit. It's not guaranteed, but we know we're tracking towards that. If they say, oh no, mate, you don't understand, I've got 2 kids under the age of 3 at home. If I don't get home, my partner's going to wring my neck. I'm never going to be able to go out. Well, that might not be a dealbreaker for you, but that's insight that lets you know, is this person going to be a good cultural fit for us? The last thing I would say is this piece of the puzzle is all about making sure that you understand them, but also that they understand you. Let them interview or interact with multiple people in your organization. Let them get a feel for who their team is going to be. Lots of times we're being interviewed by somebody from the HR department, environment that we see on our first day of work, and then we don't see again until we quit or get fired. Make sure that they're actually interacting with their coworkers, the people who are going to hopefully become colleagues someday, so that they get a feel for what it's going to be like to be part of the team, and the team gets a feel for what this person being on the team is going to be like. I love this.

That first assess phase, for me, feels a little bit like you're setting yourself up to be a magnet for the right person, and you repel those that don't fit, which makes sense because I feel like you're doing this right up front before you ever make a further investment. Like, the deeper you go, the more costly this becomes if you get it wrong. So I know a lot of business owners, especially when they start out, you just take whatever warm body you can find to fill the role Um, but the longer you're in this, the more you start to realize, hey, there is a real difference here between A players and even B players or C players. So we need to make sure we get the right people. One of the things we put in this assess phase for us is we know systems-driven businesses are better businesses, so we make sure we magnetize ourselves for people who will fit into a systems culture. And we know if we find that upfront, that for us, I mean, we're systems driven, that just makes everything else flow more easily. But a lot of people don't think like that, and I reckon it's key.

I agree, David. And in fact, I think a lot of people go into it thinking, I need to hire a person that can do the job. Yeah. As opposed to I need to hire a person that fits the culture and then I'll teach them to do the job. Let's be candid, and I say this respectfully, no one is born knowing how to do anything. Everyone in your organization learned the job that they do, even if they had experience at a competitor or in another industry or something that they were able to bring to the table. They had to learn your process, your cadence, your way of operating. What it's really hard to teach is to teach someone how to be a decent human, or to be the kind of person you want to have lunch with, or to be kind of person that will chip in and roll up their sleeves and stay late if we're on deadline and there's a big project we're trying to do. So what I would suggest is pay more attention to who the individual is as a human than what their resume says, because you can teach them a lot of the things on the resume. Doesn't mean don't pay attention to that at all, But in my career, I have had much more success hiring amazing humans and teaching them to do the job than hiring somebody with related work experience who was maybe more of a B human and trying to get them to become an A human. It's just a lot easier to go the other direction.

Ah, hey, I know you're tuned in right now, so I'll keep this super quick, but you like awesome YouTube videos, don't you? Well, there's not really that many YouTube channels that create great content about how to systemize your small business. So I want to make sure that you catch every video that I publish. So if you haven't already, firstly, give this video the thumbs up and then go ahead and subscribe to my channel. You can even hit the bell notification to make sure that you're the first to know when I publish anything. So go ahead, do it right now. I'll, I'll wait a sec and then I'll transfer you back to the video. As we move them through the pipeline and we get the right person, they move into accept. What are the top couple of tactics we can use at accept?

So I'll do two for accept. Number one, the offer that you extend should feel like an invitation to the next chapter of their journey, as opposed to a letter from a lawyer. All too often, the letter that comes across that is the official offer feels like it was written by the legal department, especially here in the United States. I know it's a little bit different in Australia, but here in the US, it's like, you know, this is an at-will contract. You can be fired at any time. These are your rights. These are your privileges. You don't get this. You do get that. And it just feels like a prenuptial agreement for a marriage. It's like, where's the love? Where's the spark? Where's the excitement that made me actually fall for you and you fall for me, that made us decide let's begin this relationship together? Instead, it should feel like an invitation. Hey, we're excited to have you part of the team. Here's the role we see you playing. Here's how we're going to work together to achieve our collective professional goals, but also your individual professional goals, and also your individual personal goals. And by the way, we know what those are because we asked you about them in an interview, and now we're repeating back some of those key points so that you go, oh, I feel seen, I feel valued, I feel appreciated. The second thing is, when they accept the offer, it should do more than trigger an email from HR saying, thanks so much, your start date is August 9th. It should trigger celebration. It should trigger, trigger excitement, whether that's a video from the team saying, oh my gosh, you accepted the offer, it's official, David, you're joining us, this is amazing, or sending a package to their house that says, oh my gosh, we're thrilled that you accepted the offer and joined the team. While we're not going to take you out to dinner tonight, here's a gift card. Take your significant other and your family out to dinner tonight and celebrate. We're excited to have you on the team. You'll notice even the energy I'm bringing to this part of the conversation is one of excitement and energy and feeling. So often in the accept phase, it's transactional. It's boilerplate. It's legalese. Get away from that. Make the accept phase worthy of the fact that they just accepted your incredible offer.

Yeah, the affirm phase— I'm just thinking, like, if the accept phase feels like, you know, if we're sending out, let's say, a gift or something like that, that really feels like that's our side, we're doing something. The Affirm, we're wanting to make sure that we remove that new hire remorse. How is that a different phase from Accept? And what, what is the focus or the tactics for that level?

So the Accept phase is when we extend the offer and we accept the offer. The Affirm phase happens after the acceptance and lasts until they show up for the first day on the job. Now, in most organizations, David Jenyns, nothing happens during this time period. Nothing. We say, oh, you're going to start on Tuesday the 15th. And then they don't hear from us until they walk into the building on Tuesday the 15th. And they're like, oh, I'm ready to start. What we need to do in the Affirm phase is let them know they made the right choice. Now, you're right, sending a gift, sending something like that, if that's delayed by a day or two, that kit will be showing up in the affirm phase, and it'll be great. If it comes the day of, it's more the accept phase, right? And again, that could be something you decide. You could decide, was it more important for us to acknowledge this the day of, or should we wait a day or two and let it sink in a little and then hit them with the big surprise? Every business is different. Let your brand spirit come through. What I will say about the affirm phase is more often than not, any communication is better than no communication in the affirm phase. So even if you did nothing else from this podcast but decide, we're gonna make sure that we do something. We're gonna send an email, we're gonna make a phone call, we're gonna send a video, we're gonna send a care package. We're gonna do something to let them know in this gap between accepting and starting that we are excited that they're coming on board. That's going to be enough to move the dial.

I love as we come up to this point in the pipeline because this, this is one of my areas that I love, like this bit as we move into the Activate the First Day and even as we move into, uh, Acclimate afterwards. Um, where I think, uh, in terms of— I remember reading about an experiment some psychologists ran back 1975, and they had this thing where there was a bunch of actors standing in an elevator. They're all facing the wrong way, and the unsuspecting person steps into the elevator and almost without fail turns to face the wrong way just because everybody else is. Um, and that shows— I mean, people will do so much just to fit in and not stand out. They'll just just look for the cues on what everybody else is doing. And I feel like this is such a critical thing when people step into the elevator that is your business. You want to make sure everybody's facing the right way. So from day one, they just go, oh, this is how we do things here. So how do you think about that Activate first day, David?

The way I think about Activate is whenever I'm helping clients in a consulting capacity or giving speeches and we're talking about this phase, I can't help but think about country music legend Bonnie Raitt, right? And she has this great song called "Let's Give 'Em Something to Talk About," right? And what's interesting is we know for a fact that every new hire at the end of their first day on the job is going to go home to their significant other, their parents, their roommate, their children, whoever it is they live with, or if they don't live with anyone, they live on their own. While they're on the way home, they're going to call the person they love the most. And that person, the first question that person is going to ask is what? What do you—

How was your first day at work?

How was your first day? We know that's the question that's going to be asked. And yet so few organizations intentionally design the answer to that question. You should be intentionally designing how your new hire is going to answer that question at the end of the first day. Let me juxtapose two options. Option 1, that is most common, and Option 2, I'll give a quick case study of a company that's world-class on the Activate Day. Option 1, the more typical approach: "Well, I showed up at work and my boss actually wasn't there. They were out on vacation this week, my new manager I'm supposed to work with. So I sat in the lobby for about 20 minutes before finally somebody from HR came out and said, 'Oh, sorry, we forgot that today was your first day.'" Here, come into the conference room. We've got some videos for you to watch and some paperwork for you to fill out. And then they slide a bunch of paper across the paperwork, across the table about tax information and retirement accounts and policies. And then they're like, oh yeah, now that you've signed all that, we need you to watch some videos on sexual harassment in the workplace. And they were filmed in the '70s. But don't, don't worry, it's still relevant today. And you're like, the video or the harassment? I'm confused. Like, which is the relevant part? And then when you're done watching the videos, don't worry, I'll come back and get you. And then they start the video and they leave the room. And then eventually they come back and they say, hey, we've got some people from your team that are going to take you to lunch. And you go out in the lobby and you meet the people and you go to lunch, but they don't know you and they didn't even know they were going to lunch with you. They got roped into this last minute, so they don't really talk to you about it all. And afterwards they bring you back to the lobby and hand you back to the HR representative who says, well, you know, we really don't— we were going to have your email set up, but IT didn't get that done. We don't even have your computer and your desk ready. So why don't you just take the rest of the day and take this manual home and read it and we'll see you tomorrow. "Tomorrow." That's how a lot of organizations create a first-day experience, right? Often when I give that example or something like that in a presentation, people are like, "Oh my gosh, Joey, you knew my former employer? You were there on my first day?" I'm like, "No, this is so common that this is a universal experience globally." Juxtapose that against the experience at JAM, J-A-M. JAM is a company based outside of Toronto. That runs sports leagues for professionals. So basically think about, you know, doctors, lawyers, young professionals, young business people, young people in the community, uh, that want to have a kickball league or a softball league or a basketball league. Jam helps run those sports leagues, right? And because they're a company that's all about sport and play, their first day experience is rather remarkable. When you pull into the parking lot a little bit before 10:00 AM on your first day on the job, and you pull into your spot, your manager is waiting in the parking lot to greet you. You're shocked, like, they're right there. They open your door. "Oh my gosh, David, welcome! Come on in. The team's so excited to see you." They walk you over to the front door of the building. As they open the front door and gesture for you to walk in, you walk in and you hear, your walk-on music, right? The music that you would have if you were a professional athlete going up to bat or taking the court for the game. And the reason they know this is your walk-on music is because during the application process, they had you answer a series of questions, including, if you were a professional athlete, what would your walk-on music be? And then they never bring it up again unless you're hired, and then they play the music as you're walking into the building. You turn the corner as you walk into the building, and there is a human tunnel, all of your coworkers lined up high-fiving you as you walk down the line, and they're celebrating you and cheering your name, and you're high-fiving. You're like, what is actually going on here? And they are dressed in one of two items: either their hockey sweater, right, which has the company logo on the front, their name, and the number is the year they started as an employee, or their rookie hoodie, which is a sweatshirt which has their name and the number on it of the year they started. And you're walking down the line high-fiving people, and you turn the corner and you go into the conference room and the CEO is there and she's high-fiving you. And as you look on the wall on the big monitor screen, all the employees of Jamf around the country are on a Zoom call with their cameras turned on, cheering your name and looking at you. They then ask you a series of some fun questions like, what is the TV show you're binge-watching right now? What's the best book you ever read? You know, if you were to have dinner with 3 people from any time in history, who would those 3 people be and why? They ask you questions about who you are as a human. And then they present you with your rookie hoodie, which you will wear at every team meeting and every welcoming of a new employee until your 1-year anniversary, where they will present you with your hockey sweater as you graduate from your first year of employment into your second. That's what the first 20 minutes look like.

Wow, that's, uh, extraordinary. And I can only imagine what it would be like to then come home at the end of the day and have my wife say, how was your first day at work? And I would go, you wouldn't believe it, extraordinary. And that would stay with you forever.

Like, that's forever. Yeah, forever. You will remember that first day on the job when you were on the last day of whatever the last job you ever have is. Like, that is the most remarkable first day of employment, probably at any business in the world. And all it required was a little bit of intention, a little bit of effort. Let me pull back the curtain slightly. The reason they have you start at 10 AM— the company opens at 9 AM, so they know the car that's pulling into the lot at 10 AM is the new hire. They don't have to know what your car looks like, who you are. They know no one's showing up at 10 AM. Additionally, it makes sure everybody's there. So when they're in the line for the high five, the whole team is ready and waiting. It's not, "Oh, quick, David's here. Let me walk you around and introduce you to some people who are bothered that I'm stopping them from doing their work to meet you." No, it's a spectacle. It's a celebration. It's all about making that experience remarkable from day one.

Yeah, I love that. As they move into the next phase, and I don't know if we continue with Jamf and the way that they do things or what you see as best practice in the next phase.

Yeah, so let's switch to a different example, right? Not that Jamf doesn't do great things, but I don't want anyone to get caught up because sometimes people hear the Jamf example and they're like, oh, Joey, that's amazing, but we only have 2 employees. We're about to hire our third. The tunnel would be like 2 people. Like, what would we do? 'No, do you. Live your brand.' Jam, it fits with their brand spirit. It fits with— they're all into sport, they're all into play. This is their vibe. If you're a white-shoe accounting firm or a big law firm that represents, you know, banks, you're probably not going to have a high-five tunnel. Okay, but what's your equivalent? What's your thing you do? So the acclimate phase starts on day 2 and lasts for weeks or months. As the new hire gets used to your way of doing business. Let's pull up a little broader as opposed to tactical here, because this one really is going to depend on the individual business and the role of the person we're hiring. There are 4 key things that need to happen in the Acclimate phase. Every new hire needs to understand 4 things, the 4 Rs. You know, when we were in school, they talked about readin', writin', and 'rithmatic. In business, there are 4 Rs. What is my role? What are the requirements? What are the responsibilities? And what are the relationships? Let's break those down. The role. What is my role in the organization? What do I have to do? What, how does what I do contribute to the success of the rest of this team, the rest of this department, the rest of this division, the rest of this organization? What is my puzzle piece, right? What do I need to do? So that's the role. Number 2, the requirements. What are the things that you are counting on me to do? Because if I don't do them, no one else will. It is a requirement that you answer the phones if you're the reception person. It is a requirement that you fill out the TPS report. It is a requirement David, that you're the one making sure that this gets processed at this time. What are the things that we are crucially counting on that if you fail or you make a mistake, the whole system falls apart? Number 3, what are— we, we started with roles, then we had requirements, now we have responsibilities. What are your responsibilities? Now responsibilities are a little different than requirements, because often they're more theoretical. Like a responsibility is, we're, we're counting on you to have a positive attitude. We're counting on you to make sure that things are done in a timely fashion. We're counting on you to bring a work ethic or a spirit of completion or a spirit of a can-do attitude or whatever it may be. What are the unique responsibilities that you have that are gonna not only make you successful in this role as you do your requirements, but are gonna make you part of the overall accountability and responsibility of the organization. And last but not least, what are the relationships that you're going to need to maintain in order to be successful on this team? Who are your teammates? Who are your bosses? And who are your bosses' bosses? What are the people in other departments you might be interfacing with? How are you gonna make sure you know the lay of the land as you move around the organization. Now, as you can imagine, David, there's a lot that can be covered in those 4 categories. There's a lot of work there. The biggest problem tactically that most organizations make in the Acclimate phase is they try to acclimate you to everything in under 2 days. Yeah, we try to train you on every possible scenario you could ever face And then we'll break for lunch. And it's like, whoa, wait a second, like, that was an unbelievable amount of information in the acclimate phase. Most businesses today already have their regimen of what they want to train their people on. If you did nothing else from our conversation today but go to what you normally do in the first 2 days and instead do it over 2 weeks instead of 2 days, you would solve most of your acclimate acclimate problems. Because the reason why most employees fail to acclimate is they are drowning in the fire hose of information you're trying to provide them, and they're too scared or too embarrassed to say, "I'm sorry, you got to slow down. You just used 5 acronyms, and I don't know what any of them mean. I'm sorry, you're talking about I'm going to need to work with Jessica on a regular basis. Wait, who's Jessica?" What department is she in? Why am I gonna have to interact with her? You told me, you know, it's really important not to press the red button. Never press the red button. Out of curiosity, what happens if I push the red button? And why do we even have a red button if no one's supposed to push it? Yeah, we have a tendency to forget how much we know, and we don't do a good job of explaining it slowly clearly and effectively to our teams. Acclimate them, don't inundate them.

Yeah, and I think, I mean, this flows in very well to the next step in the phase. Really, you want the team member to be able to accomplish something in the shortest amount of time where they feel like, I'm actually adding value to the business. I'm not learning useless information that goes in one ear, out the other ear. I've forgotten at the end of the week. You want to go, how do I get you doing something to feel like you're contributing? And that's the best way to learn and be on the job. And yeah, so I love the way that this just logically flows.

Yeah, David, I love it. And that takes us beautifully into the Accomplish phase because the example I want to share is from a company called Hootsuite, Hootsuite. Some of the folks might be familiar with this, right? It allows you to manage all your social media feeds in one platform. If you're going to be a software engineer at Hootsuite, you show up for the job, and this actually happens in some departments, it actually happens on day one, but in every department it happens within the first week. You actually go into the Hootsuite code and you make an adjustment to the Now, if you know anything about software companies, there's a general rule: we don't let the new kids touch the code. No one gets to touch the code until we've proven that you're worthy to touch the code, because if you touch the code, it might screw up the whole thing. At Hootsuite, they say, you know, we hired you for a reason because you're talented. We're going to show you what we need you to do, and let's go in and change the code. Now, I don't know about you, David, but I've come across more than one software engineer in my life, and if you give them the power to change the code early on, that's a moment worth celebration. That's a moment they remember. That's a moment that they talk to their friends and family about. That's an accomplishment. Now, does the code change completely revolutionize the software? No, they do a little code change. They add their name, or they switch a color, or they do something. It is impactful but is not revolutionary. But then they celebrate. They celebrate that you contributed to the team, you changed the code, you did it. And this is where I think a lot of organizations miss on the Accomplish phase. They think, well, I'll celebrate your accomplishment once you've actually accomplished something, but you're gonna have to be on the job for a while before you're actually a contributor. You got to learn the ropes, you got to see what's going on. And 50 years ago, somebody was willing to work at a company for 6 months, a year, 2 years, 5 years before they had a major accomplishment. In 2026 and beyond, if I don't feel like I'm contributing and accomplishing on probably a monthly basis, I'm probably looking for employment elsewhere. That's what we're up against, but that's also the opportunity employers have to acknowledge and celebrate the accomplishments of their team members.

Yeah, I think, I mean, that first bit does give them some confidence to go, "Well, I'm in the right place and I'm adding value, and yep, I'm already contributing so early on." And I feel like as you flow into the next phase around Adopt and I think process plays a part in all of the stages here, but in Adopt in particular, it's huge because a big part of adopting is you're effectively changing someone's habits. And I see process as we're making the invisible visible. We document it and we say, well, this is our habit, this is the way that we do things here. And really adoption has to do with practicing those habits, doing it consciously until it becomes who we are. So, yeah, how— is there any additional, yeah, extra magic you would put into the adopt phase?

The thing I would say about the adopt phase, and I agree with everything you just said, but I think everything you just said about systems also applies to humans. The biggest mistake organizations make in the Adopt phase is they have adopters as team members. They're loyal, they're valued, they've been here for a long time. And what do most organizations do? They take those people for granted. Those people have become invisible. This opportunity in the Adopt phase is to make the invisible people visible. Celebrating birthdays, celebrating anniversaries, celebrating key milestones in their life. They have a baby, they get a dog, their child graduates from high school, whatever it may be. When we acknowledge the human personal aspects of our employees, we actually transcend that point of this just being a job and this becoming a second family. Family, right? We spend so much time at work. Most of us spend more time at work than we do with the people we actually call our family. But we have this belief of like, well, there's, there's work and there's personal. Like, I'm not, I'm not going to ask you how old you are. I didn't say ask how old they are. I said when's their birthday. I had an experience not too long ago with a doctor who ran a series of doctor's offices, and we got on a consultation call and he said, Joey, I made a huge mistake today. I said, what was your mistake? He said, I was walking through the halls and one of my doctors came up to me and said, hey doc, do you know what today is? And I said, no, what's today? And he said, I could tell as soon as I said that, that I had made a mistake. And I looked at her face and she said, it's my 7-year anniversary here at the practice. He said, Joey, I had no idea. I knew she'd been here for a while, but I didn't remember what day she started. I didn't remember that this was 7 years. I said, great. He said, great, Joey, this is horrible. I said, no, this is great because you're feeling now that you could have done this better. He's like, yeah, I could have done, but, but how? Well, let's start with just putting everybody's start date into your calendar so that you wish everyone a happy anniversary. Then let's come up with anniversary acknowledgments or gifts. You know, if a wedding anniversary, the first year is paper, you know, the 50th year is gold. We have lists of what the years are. It should be the same for employees. How do you celebrate the first-year anniversary, the second-year anniversary? And a lot of people that are listening might be saying, well, Joey, I've got some employees who've been here like 6 or 7 years, and I never celebrated any of their anniversaries before now. Okay, but let's not allow past non-performance to justify future nonperformance. Instead, let's say, "We're going to be better. We're going to be different going forward. We're going to celebrate anniversaries. We're going to celebrate birthdays. We're going to acknowledge personal milestones, especially when it becomes, when it comes to our most loyal team members." Yeah.

And that brings us to the final one. Like you said, it's almost like you can't get someone to the Advocate stage unless they go through the Adopt stage. Stage. And in Systemology, we have a point to say, you know when you've built a systemized culture in the business? When the team says, ah, this is how we do things here. And I feel like when you're at the Advocate stage, you've embodied the company's culture. You are a prime example of, hey, this is how we do things here. So I I absolutely love this. And each one of these phases kind of really fits in very well with the way we approach things from Systemology. So yeah, maybe bring, bring us home. What are a few key things we can do at this final stage?

So the big thing I would say that organizations fail or struggle with in the Adopt phase is, or the Advocate phase rather, is when they have advocates, they don't properly acknowledge or reward it. So what does that look like? Well, let's pretend you're hiring for a new sales position in your organization, and you send an email to your whole team, and it says, hey, we're looking to hire a new regional salesperson who's going to be operating out of this territory. If you know any great salespeople, let us know. And one of your biggest, most trusted team members says, oh my gosh, I didn't know we were hiring for that! My college roommate from uni is amazing. We should interview her. She's, she's absolutely incredible. We got to interview her. And they say, okay, send us the resume. And so we make sure that the resume gets sent, and then nothing ever happens. I'm not even sure if we interviewed the person. I don't know how the interview went. I never get told. I'm reaching out to my friend, hey, by the way, did you hear from my team. Like, I passed the resume on, haven't heard anything. Are you sure you gave it to him? Yeah, I gave it to him. I don't— and now our advocate asks themselves, why am I advocating for this organization? The biggest mistake organizations make when it comes to advocates is, number one, your team doesn't know you're looking to fill positions. The research shows that on average, more than 50% of employees do not know when there is an open position in their organization that the organization's looking to fill. Just lack of knowledge is a huge problem. Number 2, when they make a referral or they connect us to someone, we've got to keep that team member in the loop. I'm not saying we have to hire their referral, but we certainly have to treat that referral with respect, with dignity, keep them in the loop, take them through our process, "Make sure that things are done right." And if we do hire them, then let's celebrate and reward and acknowledge. And if we interview them and they're great, but we decide not to hire them, let's still celebrate the referral and say, "Hey, thanks so much. It didn't work for this one, but we're going to continue to keep an eye going forward. But don't let that stop you from making future referrals." We've got to acknowledge, we've got to celebrate, we've got to reward the advocacy behaviors if we want our advocates to continue doing it.

And assuming that you take the time to go through all of these phases and you get someone great and you get them indoctrinated in the way that you do business and they're a great fit and you're like, wow, I want more of these people, then understanding that birds of a feather flock together and that like people, no other like people. And like, they— if you've proven that they're the right person, then they are going to be the best people to be out there advocating for you and bringing more people in because they know what they are. And so I feel like that only makes sense.

A major software company in India implemented a referral program like this, and what they found is that the people that were a direct by direct referral from their existing team stayed at the company 2 to 3 times longer than the people that came in through job postings or want ads or headhunters or recruiters. Yeah, loyalty breeds loyalty. It's that simple, but it requires that kind of effort.

Yeah, I love the 8 phases that we went through. I know the book goes into it in more detail. I'm going to make sure I pop a link through to Never Lose an Employee Again, required reading for any business owner. And I'll pop a link through to joeycoleman.com, uh, just like we did last time, so people can follow your work. Um, yeah, I just, I love the way that you think, and it's so logical and fits in so perfectly well. And you've gone for like the two biggest leverage points in business. Never lose a customer, never lose an employee. Like, they are the biggest leverage points that you need to focus on, and you've got a system. So I don't know if there's any final things you want to add, but, uh, yeah, that's—

well, David, thank you. I'll just say a word of gratitude. Number one, thank you for those kind words and that compliment. That means a lot to me. I'm a big fan of Systemology. I'm a big fan of of your work. And I couldn't agree more. I felt that way when I read your book, when I've dived into your materials. I think that your work and my work are the perfect blending of— you've got to have a system and a process that acknowledges that human beings are in your system and process. And when you do those two things, it works fabulously. If you're all about the humans with no system, Oh my goodness, it's called junior high. If you're all about the system but no humans, oh my goodness, it's an AI bot. It's, it's not, it's not gonna work, right? So it needs to be the marrying of two. So I am flattered and appreciative of your kind words. And, uh, I, I will also recommend all of you make sure you dive even deeper into systems work because that's what makes all the icing on the cake and the fun celebrations and these little things possible because they operate on a strong foundation.

Thank you. Yeah, this is great. I'm looking forward to your third book that I know you were thinking about, Never Losing an AI Bot Again.

I love it, I love it. I'll leave the AI bots to write their own books about, uh, how to keep AI But yeah, I so appreciate the conversation. Thanks to everybody for listening in and for joining us. And best of luck as you go out to create those remarkable experiences for your teams in the first 100 days and beyond.