How Systems Thinking Helped This Company Scale Like Never Before

Being brave and throwing yourself forward and saying, right, here's our company version of that. Even about ccf. Break it down, let's go through it. I found that, you know, that real immediate immediacy of that feedback enabled us to move quite quickly on things.

Hello, it's Dave. I'm joined by Kieran from Valmond and Gibson and they recently went through the Catalyst program with the facilitator James Brown. So I thought, well, let's get Kiran on the call. We could talk through a little bit more about their story and how they found the experience. So maybe to kick things off, Kieran, I don't know if you'd like to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what Valmond and Gibson do and we can go from there.

Yeah, my name's Kieran. As Dave said, we've just completed the Catalyst program. My role at Valmont and Gibson is the head of people. I wear a few hats. Head of people systems and innovation Systems being a big part of that. And that's what we're here to here to talk about. Valvon and Gibson are a company that supply building facades. So sit in a very niche, very niche space where we don't do any installation, we don't do any fabrication. We literally just supply do any facades to the doing industry. Everything from houses all the way up to, you know, hospitals and high rise. So we sit in that. Sit in that space. Yeah, yeah.

How long have you guys been around for?

Well, we, we started in the middle of COVID so that was an interesting, interesting time. So about three and a half years.

Yeah, perfect. And I know the business owner, Michael, who you also obviously work really, really closely with, I think. Was he the one who discovered systemology? I don't know if you can tell us a little bit about how you guys came across our work.

Yeah, the path or the journey to systemology became quite a natural one, I suppose because the company Michael's been always heavily involved with, Michael Gerber and the ebook and e myth and it was something that I was introduced to a few years back through Michael and we'd sort of gone down the path quite heavily looking at the emyth philosophies and we're having some business coaching through emyth and it just wasn't quite doing it for us. We sort of had a few false starts is probably the best way to describe it. Michael had sort of charged me with looking at e myth and trying to basically systemize the company. But I suppose what we found is that we didn't really have the how. We had a lot of the why. Like Michael had given us a lot of the e myth had given us a lot of the why it's good to do it, but we didn't have the tools really on how that, how that gets up, you know, how it gets up in a efficient period of time. So we were sort of on the lookout and if we sort of connected some dots there and we came across a video actually of yourself talking about Systemology, I think it was a podcast. And then as soon as Michael and I sort of listened to that first podcast around Systemology it was. We were sold straight away. And then within literally a week we were, we were on the Systemology bandwagon and, and straight into the Catalyst program. Because we suppose why we joined so quickly was because we. It had such that e myth underpinning and, but it was, we could see it was going to show us how to do it and lead us through the process rather than just the theory of. Of amyth.

Yeah, yeah. And we've got a few different ways that we help people with an online program, the Catalyst Group program. And then the done for you was there like what made you think the Catalyst program was right for you?

Yeah, really good question. So we originally I jumped straight into, I think I signed up for maybe like a free version or test version of System Hub, um, just to jump in. I thought I was going to be able to do it myself and just jump in because I had all that E Myth knowledge. I had been systemizing just on Google Docs and Google Drive and had it sort of all all over the place. And I love System Hub and I was then going to just do the DIY version in there. In there. And then I think we looked at, you know, maybe getting a Systemologist Systemologist to come in and actually sort of step us through the program. But then a Catalyst. We had a, I think a 30 minute chat with one of your crew there around Catalyst Program and it just seemed to fit us perfectly. It wasn't someone coming in externally. We were keen on doing it internally using our internal IP and knowledge base that we already built up through emyth. And so yeah, Catalyst for us seemed like to sit in that perfect zone between DIY or someone coming in and it's right in the middle there. Yeah.

Oh, perfect. And did yourself and Michael attend the sessions or was it mainly you like who kind of sat in those sessions?

Yeah, I'd say pretty much we were as much as possible, we were both at every session there was a few sessions where I was over in the States. And so just some times were a little bit hard, and there were some sessions where Michael was unable to make it. But we both. I mean, that was one of the great things about the Catalyst program is everything's recorded so that, you know, even if I missed the session, I could watch it an hour later. If Michael missed a session, he could watch it, you know, an hour later, a couple of hours later. So that pretty much we all, definitely. We all. We watched every single session or were involved in every single session live. And I think being involved in the sessions live is really where it's at. Yeah. And I mean, you could ask James. I was quite involved in asking a lot of questions, I suppose, and putting my hand up to be. To be an example in a lot of those sessions and being brave. But. And I think that's why we got a lot out of it, so.

Yes. Yeah, I know. Sort of as you go through. Because there's this roadmap that you go through and James leads you through that. I'm wondering, like, if you look back now, if there are any kind of takeaways or things that you really appreciate now, having gone through the program where you're like, oh, that part of the program worked well, you know, was it the community or something James said or obviously mentioned? The hot seats was a big one there. I think being brave and sticking your hand up is actually one of the smartest things you can do when you go through that group program, because you get the biggest wins.

There's probably a few, actually, so I'll try and remember them all as I go. But I think, first of all, the patience in setting up our ccf. So I was someone who tended to. If I didn't have James's guidance, I would have probably just swept through that fairly quickly and not. Not understood why we had to spend the time to get the CCF really nutted out and very specific and spend the time to get it right. Because later on you could see that if my first ECF was like. Like was too big. You know what I mean? There was too many things and it was too large. And that becomes a large DLTC and sas. And you can see how it. I can now, looking back, understand how if I was allowed to have a CCF that was super large, we would never have got anything documented. Right. So I think one of the key takeaways was going slow to go fast, and James really explained that through the first few stages. So do you want to put my Dog's going nuts. Did you want to pause that at all? Yeah, that's okay.

Your dog's getting excited too.

So the CCF was really important. You mentioned there. Once we got involved, once we really got into the hang of it was really being involved in those hot seats. So because obviously you're involved in a group situation where everyone's trying to get the most out of it, but being brave and throwing yourself forward and saying, right, here's our company version of that, even about ccf, break it down, let's go through it. I found that real immediacy of that feedback enabled us to move quite quickly on things. The community is amazing because you learn so much from others. There were some really active members in our group, I suppose, posting a lot of, a lot of material and they probably don't realize how much I got from them. You know, you probably never, probably never reached out and said, you know, exactly what I got from them and maybe they got the same from us. So I think the more that people post in there, you read James's feedback to them and then that enables you to not make the same mistakes. So that happened a lot, particularly in the early days when you're first doing your first documentation or your first extraction, looking at how others extract in certain situations. So yeah, they're probably some of the key takeaways.

I know when you joined you really hands on. One of the big breakthroughs that you had shared through to James was the fact that you got someone to help out with the documentation. I'd love to kind of explore that a little bit more and even what your mindset was going in, where you were doing a lot of the stuff hands on and then kind of what happened there to get that shift for you.

So I think we were always asking the question of ourselves and James kept posing it, having the right people in the right seats. And I can't remember the exact way he used to put that. There's an actual Systemology sort of way of determining that, but it's basically continue looking at, have you got the right people in the right seats, including the systemologist? Are you the right person to do the work Now? From the very beginning, I was quite adamant, maybe stubborn to the point that, yeah, I thought it was me, I thought it was me, I thought it was me. And you sort of have this natural element of wanting to hold onto it as much as possible. It probably got to a point where I looked at Systemology's system of documenting systems and I thought my actual skill set really lies in management of people. And so why not empower that within myself and actually let's try bringing someone else on board to do the documentation. And at first we just looked at documentation. I'll explain the second part of literally it was just documentation. So I borrowed the system for documenting systems. I tweaked it to match what we needed and we trialed having someone external to essentially just document. I'd extract and I would document and it worked really, really well. And it was efficient. The person was actually enjoying the documentation because that's what they, that's what they love to do. So then we stretched a little bit further and it became much bigger than we initially thought. So it actually became, rather than someone doing the documenting, we then train the person up to do the extractions. And so they now look after everything from setting up the date, setting up the extraction date, calendarizing the extraction, basically sending all the preforms, doing the extraction and then doing the documentation. So they have become in a way the systemologist. And I am just the manager of the systemologist. And I must say the efficiency of what we're now getting out of that machine of documentation is amazing. And yeah, the return on our time is, investment in time is amazing.

Thinking then about the program, I mean we're very particular, we solve a very specific problem for a specific person. Like that's the whole vision of systemology. And what you guys came into the program obviously sold on the idea of the E myth and then looking for the how to. Yeah, I don't know if you can speak to like either the value from that program or if that achieved the outcome that you started the program with just to kind of get a little bit of an idea on. Are you glad you took that step and what, what does that value look like?

Yeah, so absolutely for us we've achieved more than what we set out to achieve in a, in a short period of time. We probably didn't think, we absolutely didn't think that we would have this many systems documented, fully documented up on System Hub ready to go at this point. And I'd say even in the first little bit of the program, probably didn't think we'd get there. Right. Because it was that go slow to go fast and it's been really accelerated in the last two months. So I think looking back now we absolutely got, you know, super successful. Does it look like it looks like a full CCF documented. We're now doing minimal viable systems that we're then out to move into other products in our business and start to really roll it out. Whether this is going to be a question later, but the flip side of that is we've still got a bit to go, right? So yes, it's success, but we've still got a long way to go in. Probably rolling that out to the rest of your employees and getting them all using System Hub. I suppose they've all been involved in extractions, which is probably the first step for us, is for them to understand extractions are involved in all of that. But then I suppose using System harbors the underpinning point of how to follow process and systems is important for us to get right across the business in change management and where we've always been looking, I suppose, and our success is what we've been looking for is our optimization. So, you know, Michael, as a business owner wants to get to optimization tomorrow, you know, or yesterday, which is understandable and so do I. That's the bit I will enjoy doing. You know, I don't necessarily enjoy the documentation or even the extraction, but I know I will enjoy the optimization phase. So for us, I suppose, you know, full success looks like when we start to get to that optimization phase and start to get that wheel. That wheel turning.

Yeah, yeah, perfect. Just a couple of last ones. I'd love to get an idea on how James was as a facilitator. Like, I don't know if you got any thoughts on how he was running the program.

James is fantastic. He has this ability to fit in a nice little spot between someone who is nurturing but also challenging. Right. So I come from a. I spent 20 years in education, so I understand how hard it is to run. Run sessions like this and, and I really do appreciate his, his ability to, to challenge and push back. He will, but. But in a nurturing way. So he actually, you know, he led, he leads the group really, really well. Obviously offers immediate feedback which is, you know, we know in education that's one of the most important things and so that enables you to really engage with the program. But I loved how he pushed back and you know, I might propose something or come up with something based upon his feedback and he might say, no, actually, yeah, this is my thoughts on that. And you have a great healthy discussion on the ins and outs onto the opinions on which direction to take on a certain matter. And yeah, Michael and I both found James to be a fantastic facilitator and yeah, really enjoyable guy to work with.

I think one of the things I love about James is that he practices what he preaches. Like he owns A motel business that he systemized and is running. And now he's working on his passion, which is helping other business owners to do the same, which I think is pretty special in itself.

Exactly. Just listening to someone, I mean, you've got to be able to walk a walk. Right. And listening to him and how he's managed to. You talk about that whole thing about removing the business owner from the business and how he's managed to do that in his own life and how systems have enabled him to do that and all the analogies he can use back to his motel business. All those little anecdotes were fantastic along the way and yeah, it was great.

Yeah, very cool. Now, I know last thing is that it's going to be some business owners who sold on the idea of systems. They know that they want to get this in place and they're trying to figure out what program and how they want to deploy systemology in their business. And they're kind of thinking about the Catalyst program. I know a couple of things that the Catalyst program does because it's over six months, it provides a level of accountability and support and you kind of have to show up every two weeks, which means keeps front and center for a long enough period that you, you. It doesn't just become an idea that you follow for a little bit and then you forget about. Is there anything that you could say to a business owner or someone on the leadership team that's thinking about joining Catalyst if they're in that right space where they, they know they want systems, they just not sure what the next step is.

Yeah, yeah. Obviously my opinions pretty biased because I've come through, come through it and we're very, we're very happy with our success. But, you know, just jump in because. And be brave. If you're sold on that idea of systems, you don't really have to be sold out. Idea of systems. There are people in our group that maybe weren't completely sold, but a part of the beginning part of that program enables you to see why systems are so important and you very quickly see how it's going to help. I suppose one thing I'd like to say to business owners is that it's for all types of businesses too. I don't know. Well, that's a part of the question you're asking. But I suppose our group was so broad and that was one thing I really enjoyed was that we had maybe 10 groups or 10 businesses involved and such a broad perspective from right across the world. And, and that was fantastic. As well, you know, seeing how the different businesses were correlating systems, you know, into their everyday, you know, everyday business and the success they got from it as well. Because you often go through, go through life in business business with blinkers on sometimes. And you know, one of the, one of the other businesses announced was it was a music business, you know, piano pianos and musical instruments and so a very different business from us, you know, and, but I'd say we learned a lot from them and they probably learned a lot from us, but we're two very different businesses. So. Yeah, I mean my, my advice is to, to get involved. It's a, it's a relatively short, you know, program. It's not going to chew up, you know, your entire, you know, two years of a, of a course and you sort of get to the end and you've achieved nothing. Six months is a sort of beautiful little package to tie it up in. You are, you are sort of encouraged to turn up every two weeks but if you can't make it, you can always watch the, watch the videos and recap. You feel well supported. To achieve the goals and timelines and sort of thing, you need to hit milestones you need to hit throughout the six month period. And if you do that, if you do the things, you'll come out, you sort of, you know, you sort of can't fail because if you, if you do the things James says and you're sort of handing in the work and doing the homework, after six months you'll turn around, you'll have your CCF systemized and from there you can, you can go anywhere like we have and you know, but offshore, offshore people documenting and systems for cutting systems. And we now use Asana. We never used ASANA before, we now use ASANA to manage all of that. And yeah, things have really changed in a six month period.

What a story. And I feel like it's just started.

So.

Yeah, appreciate you sharing. Straight off the back of the program and I think love to check back in with you guys in six or 12 months, 18 months. It's funny what happens when you like just drop the rock into this still lake. The ripples now will go out and have tremendous impact and sometimes you don't even notice the impact in the moment. But systems thinking just changes organizations and it's incredibly transformative on what it will have further down the line. And yeah, love to kind of check in and see how you guys are going a bit further down the line.

Love to.

Yeah, perfect. All right, thank you. And if people want to find out a little bit more about you guys is the best place just to send them over to velman and gibson.com, correct?

That's us. Yeah.

Perfect. All right. Thank you.

Thanks, Dave.