Scaling With Systems - Personal Branding Agency

Okay, there's a process. I'm going to go through a process. There is a system in place. It gives people the peace of mind that. So if we can do it in an as intangible of a business as personal branding or branding in general, I mean, it shows that it's highly doable.

Hello, it's David from Systemology and today we are shining a light on business owners and their journey to systemization and building a systems driven business. I'm meeting here with Marina today from Brand of A Leader and we'll explore a little bit more about her story. But maybe just to start, Marina, if you can tell us a little bit about what you guys do at Brand of a Leader and maybe a little bit about your team as well.

Of course. And a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having me. So Brand of A Leader is in the very fascinating field of personal branding. We work specifically with Gen X CEOs and Gen X entrepreneurs, which they've often called the forgotten generation. So that's, it's the ones that are after millennials, before the baby boomers and I think the shortest generation as well. We help leaders uncover and build their personal brands. We work with organizations, with leaders from across the globe. We have clients in Australia as well, North America, South America, Europe, Middle East, Asia, really across the globe. And our team right now have a team of 20 which is also globally distributed, which is, you know, the beauty of what we got to experience. The one thing that came out of COVID was that we all became very comfortable working remotely with clients and also with our team members as well.

I love it. My first question that pops into mind is I'm imagining the work that you do when you help leaders position themselves and build up their brand is going to vary significantly from leader to leader. Like they're going to have different goals and objectives and different ways that they want to do things, which instantly is going to have some people think, oh, how would you work on building up systems and processes on something that is potentially so varied? I don't know if my understanding of the work that you do is correct.

Very much so. And that's one of the gaps that we noticed in the, in the business is that there is a lack of systems and processes when it comes to brand discovery and building out of a brand. That's where we were able to differentiate ourselves. Our business is very young, we're under three years old, and yet we've been able to scale, scale so rapidly because we systematized as much as we could.

Have.

There's still a lot, a lot to do. And you're the pro in the business. You know, the job is never done. But at the very least, on the end of discovering what is one's brand all about, because that's step one before you start, you know, building out that brand visibility and putting someone out there. Well, what is the brand? Is the first question. We created a really robust process and system of not only capturing that information, doing discovery with clients, but then also building out the output as well. For us, it's been our key point of differentiation. And one of the biggest compliments that we received across the board is, I love that you guys are so structured. There's a process. I can see it on your website. It's so clear. And that's where a lot of clients chose us versus our competition was thanks to that.

And I saw some of the languaging on the site as well. Like, it's really clearly presented front and center. I'm curious, when you like, have you worked in previous businesses that gave you exposure into systems and processes? And is that like, did you build it into the work that you're doing from day.it kind of sounds like that's how you got your business up and running. I don't know if you can speak to a little bit of that, because sometimes business owners, they try and insert it after the fact and build the system's culture after, sort of they're growing and scaling. Then it's comes a need. But I'm always interested in people who do it right from the start. What. What was that inspiration?

It's so much harder to do it the later you do it, right. Any aspect of the business where we're doing it now, rather than having done it before, it's a struggle and it's a cultural shift and you probably know all about it. It's very hard. So the sooner the better. So, no, this knowledge did not come. This idea of building it from the beginning, which, yes, for the process, we built it in from the beginning, from day one, it come, or maybe it did, but in a different way. It did not come from having done it before and seen the value. It came from the disaster of not having done it in a different business. I had another business before, and it had no processes, no systems, and was like a deck of cards, you know, house of cards. You would just go like, boom. And then everything starts falling down and you don't know where to grab and where to catch it. Was that realization that for clarity, for something robust to Be able to also iterate and fix things. That that would be the, the game changer and the point of different and, and it has been. So it didn't come from the positive learning, it's from, you know, getting punched in the face and going I should do it differently this time.

There you go, the school of hard knocks.

Many of us.

And how did you come across Systemology? Was it like a referral or did you find it online? What, what kind of. Yeah.

How did you discover the book online on Amazon? Yes, I was looking, we were looking with my co founder and I for well, ways to learn. So we knew that we wanted to have systems and processes but we haven't had no idea of how we would go about. We knew about it theoretically and so yes, from looking through resources and finding a resource that was just, you know, very clear and very well structured which, which helped quite a bit.

Did you mentioned, I think you said they're a co founder. So you've got the two of you. Is one of you more systems minded than the other or you both kind of, you know, approach things the same way?

I'll answer the question and I have a question for you because now that I have you on the line, I have a question also because I remember reading, maybe it was in the book, maybe it was in, in your newsletter, which has been really helpful too, that you always want to designate a systems champion, right? And so then I asked myself that question. I was like, well, am I the systems champion or is my co founder system champion? Because we champion it very differently. So I'm a system, I became a systems person. I wasn't, it wasn't born one but it became over time, but macro. So I will map out what that process, you know, should be, why there should be a process. You know, I'll be the visionary for it, my business partner, he's you know, visionary integrator, dynamic for those who are familiar with eos. He's the one that will then implement and roll it out and create, you know, all of the sub systems of support. So that's my question for you David. So who's the champion? Is it both we like a co chair chair and co chair.

This is, there's a few pieces I'd love to answer here because this is a common question. I think one of the first things we talk about in Systemology is the reason I call out the systems champion and really getting someone else to drive it who's not necessarily the business owner is to try and create the space for the business Owner because they're usually just so caught up in the day to day they're not able to work on it as Michael Gerber talks about, but they're very much in it. So that's the first piece. The business owner and is often a great system architect because they're the ones that have the picture in their head of what they would like it to be. And when it comes to re engineering systems they're oftentimes the best one to be doing that. Whereas a big part of systemology first to create the space we just capture what you're currently doing and making it repeatable. That way the business owner can step out of the delivery. Then that creates the space which then allows them to be really creative and potentially re engineer bits and say oh, that's not the way that it needs to be or let's rebuild this business system or that business system. Now the other thing I remember when I did some work with Michael Gerber he said don't let the business owner off the hook. And the business owner still needs to lead. The business owner still needs to learn the way that this works so that they can lead from the front. And that's not to say that they're going to be documenting every process or that you're not going to have team members that help them out because the business owner is really busy, but creating the structure to get that thinking out of their brain and into implementation as quickly as possible. So depending on the size of the organization early out of the two of you, who would you probably say is more of the systems champion? I generally say it's the person who's got a little bit more capacity when it comes to the implementation. So I'd probably say it's going to be your co founder longer term. You might even have a team member who that's role it is who isn't necessarily in the leadership team. Because there's different parts to rolling this out. There's. There's working with you and your co founder to get it out of your brain but then there's documenting it and organizing it and getting it into a project management and making it assigned out to an individual and making sure that it's. It's managed and there's sort of different levels to this. And I kind of see the systems champion as the person who. This is a primary function for them, who they've got capacity to work on this and they constantly champion it in front of the team in team meetings and reminding people and all those sorts of things. But when you're smaller and as you're growing, sometimes it's hard for the business owner to make the case to put a dedicated person on it. You're like a small business and you're like, what you want me to pay for a systems champion to work full time on this particular role? When I've got all of these other things I need to get done, I've got to do marketing and sales and all of the others, it can be hard to allocate that resource. But as you grow and you recognize the value of the systems, it becomes easier. It's probably a very long answer to a very short.

I think it is, it is about the value of the systems, right? Because as I mentioned for us it's. It's in big part. Has been part of our differentiation. Well, that's huge, right? When you're able to differentiate yourself to clients, there's direct monetizable value there. And also, I mean the more processes you have in place, the more in systems you don't want to be heavy and feel like red tape. But when there's that clarity, what it does, what is done to us is, well, first of all, it prevents employee dissatisfaction because when we don't have a clear process is in place, they get frustrated. Right? Employers get frustrated, don't want to lose good people. So for us being able to not only attract but to retain the best of the best, you know, we work on brands and personal brands, we need to have the best people. And also it minimizes client frustration. And still we still have our gaps that we continue to work through. But as soon as there's clarity, as soon as a client breaks the process, you can just see it goes like domino because so we still have to have those secondary layers on those things. But it becomes a big game changer.

On many levels that you might have a good answer to that you've kind of already touched on it. But I always look for new ways to make the case for the business owner that this is worth allocating resources to. Time, money, energy, effort, attention. What. And you touched on a few there. Is there anything else that comes to mind? Like sometimes it's hard to quantify the ROI on rolling this out because systems are so wide reaching, it touches every aspect of the business and therefore nothing really happens in a vacuum. And it's very hard to say, well, by rolling these systems out, you are going to add 13.7% to your bottom line within the next six months. Because we can't do that. It sometimes makes it hard to build the case, as someone who's done it, is there anything that you can speak to around. Yeah, the ROI on the effort of doing this?

Yeah. I can relate to the fact that it's hard for a business owner, an entrepreneur to see the value in systems and processes. That was me in my previous business until it impacted negatively. It's hard to see the value because we don't think in processes and, and in systems we often tend to think in a very, you know, kind of adhd. A lot of entrepreneurs are self diagnosed ADD ADHD way and it works for us, right? Like there's like a million thoughts. You catch this, then you do this, you execute on that and it all works out. I learned a long time ago that it's not the same for our employees. Our employees thrive on predictability and clarity and to them it shows, especially for a smaller medium sized business because that's usually where there are, there are no processes as bigger corporations, organizations usually have. For an employee just feels chaotic, not professional, not serious. When things are what we entrepreneurs thrive on, when it's just, you know, like oh, I put out another fire, caught this, oh, this was happening to us. We thrive on that. To employees that look, this is not professional, this is not serious, there's no clarity. And they get frustrated because they just like clarity and predictability. So I think there's big impact on that too, on employee happiness. I know that with my staff when I tell them that, oh, I'm implementing. So for example, we have a new product that we roll out in addition to LinkedIn management. We also now do Instagram and YouTube management. It's a different process. So let's just go and feel it out and see how it goes with clients. Right away frustrations happen. But so who delivers this to the client, who responds, who edits the video and then do I send it? Do you send it? Who does? It starts becoming very convoluted. I thrive on that as an entrepreneur I'm like, but figure it out, let's figure it out. And I see everybody gets frustrated. I saw that the moment I said, guys, I know that this is frustrating is because this is something very new. We're working on a process right now. Everybody exhaled. So it makes everybody feel happy and feel supported. And that's, you know, a serious company and organization that we're not just, you know, a startup that's going to collapse. So I think in addition to the bottom line, which might be hard to quantify, it's the impact on employees and the peace of mind, it Gives to them as well. That can't be underestimated either.

Makes me think when maybe it was Brad Smart in his book Top Grading and he talks about the cost of a mis hire and the tremendous cost of losing the right talent as well like, and I know he's quantified that out just on that piece alone. There's huge savings. And the getting systems and processes in place shortens the time from which a new team member joins you and then they're able to productively contribute to the work that you're doing. Oftentimes new team members, if you don't have systems and processes, are going to figure it out as they go and it's a bit haphazard and things like that. Whereas if you're quite structured, it's much easier for someone to start adding value to your business straight away, which obviously.

Drops into the bottom also. I mean a players take pride and a players from Top Grading, but a players, they take pride in their work. Right. So if things fall apart because you know, the process is not clear, somebody dropped the ball and they take ownership in the work, they're part of that project. Right. It's not all standalone stuff. Then they get frustrated that they're not delivering their best work. And so it's one of the ways support them to make sure that they're able to do their best work, deliver their best work and then take pride in that as well.

Yeah. When you went through Systemology was there and you mentioned might even be from some of the videos that we share on YouTube and the emails that we send out. Are there any particular lessons or things that have stood out for you where it's either reconfirmed something that you knew or interested you introduced a new way for you to think about things? Does anything stand out to you?

I don't remember the specifics because I know we were just, you know, following it during the time. I think the importance of, you know, just documenting everything that you're doing and then building from it. You know, one of the things that I've learned is it's very hard to build the process. And then I remember again was either in a video or an email. It's very hard to build the process for something that doesn't exist yet and then implement it. It's really hard. It's not impossible, but you're really using your imagination and trying to figure out whereas if you do it but document the steps as you're doing it and then that becomes the process that you can refine, isn't Going to be a very imperfect process, but it's going to have many of the steps much easier. So I think that's one of the, that has been one of my big ones.

Definitely one of the core philosophies and a very big difference between systemology and something like Six Sigma. Systemology is more about process capture and it's. Let's just capture as it currently is now and that becomes version number one and we can iterate and grow and improve from there. Whereas something like Six Sigma and some Lean, where they're process improvement methodologies, you first have to have the process, it pre assumes that you've got the process you're looking to improve. So systemology sits just in front of that and is actually quite complementary for some of those other methodologies that come after it. But you've got to first, especially as a small business, if you don't know what your process is, you struggle with all those things you were talking about around consistency and making sure that team members know exactly what to do. And it might not be the best and it might not be world class just yet, but just you incredible wins can be gained by making something repeatable and not dependent on any particular team member.

Yeah. Which again is hard to kind of take on board as an entrepreneur, business owner because as I said, we do think differently and we thrive in a bit of chaos. Right. Like we take pride of it, we come home and like, how was your day? Crazy. You know, chaotic. But it, but our teams are not craving the chaos too. And realizing that is important.

If we go back in time. One of the last things I'm keen to ask you is if you went back in time and then you were talking to, you know, a younger version of Marina, whether it was the existing business, business you've got or even earlier, just starting out in your career, if there's some advice or. I wish I knew this about systems or processes. Is there anything that comes to mind where you're just like, ah, I just kind of wish I, I knew this earlier when it comes to process.

Yeah, I think to me it would go back to. I wish I knew that even if I don't thrive on processes and systems myself, that vast majority of other people, at the very least people that I will be hiring, they do like they need it. It's not an optional of maybe for us, you know, again when we are entrepreneurial, we thrive on that. Maybe for us, if you are solopreneur and you thrive on the chaos, then maybe it's option, it's still, it's very helpful to have that clarity and structure. But at least maybe for you. But if you're going to be hiring people and you want to have a players and you want to scale, also you have an ambition of growing. It just becomes then. It's not a if, it's when and then, but when the longer you wait, the harder it is because then you're fixing, you're not building. Then the realization, and that's the realization I made after the previous business, is to start sooner rather than later and then be fixing all of the broken pieces.

What I love about that is you are the perfect example of the visionary business owner. And I know a lot of people are going to be able to relate to exactly what you've said. And it's very clear to me as we talk that you've fallen in love with the result of what the systems deliver. It's not so much that you love documenting process and things like that, but you kind of recognize it, cringe. Yeah, this is like, just like a, a necessary part of business. And you're, you're now leading that, which is what the job of the visionary is. And that goes back to that point I mentioned that Michael Gerber said earlier, don't let the business owner off the hook. This is their responsibility to lead it. They need to get it, understand it's important and then project that to the team that, hey, this is how we do things here. And yeah, I, I love all of those examples that you gave because you kind of demonstrated that perfectly. So if people want to see more about the work that you do, I'll point them over to brand of a Leader. I will have a link to the website so they can see. How does a creative agency effectively systemize when a lot of people think that's, you know, completely intangible?

You know, how can you write, is it intangible? How is there. Right. And, and again, a huge point of differentiation for us because that's where people have, we've been able to take something that feels so intangible to people and make it feel tangible. But it still has the intangible elements. But because, okay, there's a process, I'm going to go through a process. There is a system in place. It gives people the peace of mind that. So if we can do it in as intangible of a business, as personal branding or branding in general, I mean, it shows that it's, it's highly doable.

Perfect. Thank you so much for your time, Marina. And we'll keep an eye on your work.