Systems & AI Champion Case Study

It's not a crutch for me. I don't rely on AI to do all of the work. You have to interact with it more. So you can't just say, okay, just write me the system. And then you're like, yep, that's good. And then you just put on paper. You have to work with it.

Today we're meeting with Regina and Marcus. They are the two systems champions behind naca. That's an Australian based business coaching organization that focuses on allied health and helping businesses in that industry. The founder, Kathy Love, she's been a longtime supporter of Systemology. She's shared it in with her community, talks about it quite a lot, sings it from the rooftops. But we don't really get to hear much about their story, about how they've applied it internally and the changes they've seen to the team's mindset, how it's changed the way that they think about scaling. And, and I asked Kathy if she'd like to come on the show and tell us the story and give us a little bit of a peek behind the scenes. And she said, you need a chat with Regina and Marcus because they're the ones that make it happen. They are the system's champions. So here we are, I think. Maybe. First things first. Just like to welcome you both to the call.

Thanks, Dave.

Thank you, Dave.

Maybe as a way to start, I'd love to know who started in the role first and if you actually started as a systems champion or if it evolved into that role. I'd love to hear a little bit about that story.

Okay, I can go first. So I started in Nacre as a virtual assistant and the role sort of evolved into a podcast assistant and then podcast manager and then podcast communications. And then at some point in there, there were systems invol and systems evolving and then that role sort of just took hold. And after two years of being in the company, I recruited Marcus to join as the systems champion because I think that he was also a really good fit for it. So then, now I'm going to hand it over to Markus to continue.

Yeah. So I kind of came about Nacre in a kind of a funny way because as Regina said, she was already working for Naker for almost two years and me being in the house, like in my office and I would, you know, go over to hers and I would hear her talking with the team and, and whatnot. I even went to one of the team retreats with them. So I already knew the team, but I wasn't working for them. And then one day I overheard a conversation that their systems champion was gonna go pursue a career in meteorology. And, and so Regina said, oh, my roommate would actually make a good fit for that role. And they kind of laughed it off. And she goes, no, like, seriously, like he's actually decent at that. And I said, okay, well, like have him send his resume over. And within a few hours, you know, I sent that over and then I was on a call with Leland, you know, doing an interview, and they gave me a job offer. And so the position was their process documentation officer, so their systems Champion. And, and I, I went in full swing and that's what I was doing.

Yeah. So it sounds like Systems has been in Nacre's blood for some time. I mean, they're an organization that helps other businesses get their businesses organized and grow and scale from a business coaching perspective. So that thread would have been all the way through. And, and I'll explore a little bit with Kathy what kind of really got her to lean into it. I'm wondering, because it sounds like the role. There was a previous person in the role, obviously, Regina. There's some of the systems that you were involved in as well and developing as part of the, the work that you were doing. And then this opportunity opened up as the last systems champion moved on. I'm just wondering what that role looked like or what that person was doing maybe even before Marcus got on board. Like, were they. Had everything been, well, systemized at that point? Like, and what was their role? Was it the internal systems or client systems? I don't know if you know much about before Marcus stepped in.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I have some idea. And I was also involved in it. So it, we were in that stage like adopting this systems mindset. And it was when that was also when Kathy was pushing your book that the first book that you had and she said, regina, you have to read this book. You must read this book. And I said, okay. And so she would always promote that and, and say if you, if you're not attuned to being a systems driven person, once you read this book, it will change your mindset. And so that's generally how the, how the team really approached it, especially for the ones that were in the systems champion role. And then, although I wasn't directly in that role, but for me, being systemized was really a huge, a huge part of how I like things to work because it should have, you know, step A1A etc and it, it was just something that was part of the culture for A majority of the team that really embraced it. And yeah, I love.

I think that's probably a big part of it. It's one thing to get those documents down and just have them. It's another to get the team to follow it and getting the team on board and building the systems culture and then having a real key person drive it. Marcus, when you kind of stepped into it, there would have been a good base for you to work from. Where were things up to when you stepped into this role? Like, what level of documentation was there? What maybe some challenges that were going on to give us some idea on. Yeah. Where you leaned into.

Yeah. So when I got into the position, it was actually quite structured already weekly. We were doing basically like a systems meeting every Thursday where the whole team met up for an hour and that's what we would work on. And then from my understanding was that, hey, when you go into the call, you assign. Assign, you know, the systems to each knowledgeable worker. Let them work on it, update it, or if they need to write it. Okay, that's. That's simple enough. In terms of how many we had done, like, compared to what we have now, I would say it was. It was like around a hundred systems that we had in place. But when I stepped into the role, there was a good 50 or more that was still like a work in progress. And I went into it and I just see red, like everywhere and corrections and. And whatnot. So it's was definitely a different way than I do it now, but it was a good. It was a good foundation. There was something really solid in place. We were tracking them in a spreadsheet. We were using Asana for. We had a project in there to manage the whole team to ensure that they get done. And I just took it and then ran with it and how my brain saw it and I basically just gave it a bunch of steroids. And then now it's. It's almost. It runs by itself, basically.

Yeah.

And sometimes it would have conversations, you know, in between work time, and I would go, how do we make it better? And for me, I'm always driven to find a way to make things run smoother. So I would go, why don't you do it in this way in Asana, where you can have, you know, for example, custom fields to assign different things. And it just. He just built upon it. Marcus was just able to just build upon ideas and just make it even better.

And at this time, I didn't even know what asana was like. I stepped into the role And. And Regina's like, we use Asana. I'm like, what is that? She goes, oh, it's a project management software system. I'm like, okay, teach me how to do it. I don't know how many times I've went into her office, like, how do I do this? And. But she showed me how to basically import the Excel spreadsheet tracker that we use, you know, for all the systems. And I put it in there and I went. It was like a light bulb went off. I was like, wait, so I can do this? She goes, yeah, you can do that. Actually, you can take it one step further. And it just like one step after that. Now it's this entire different workflow entirely. I think if the person came back, our old systems champion, they wouldn't know what to do because it's completely different. But for the better, though, I think it's. It's functioning a lot better.

Were there challenges as you're making some of these adjustments, on trying to further roll out systems thinking? Sounds like systems thinking was already well adopted in the team, but I know sometimes just change for some people there can be resistance to it or with people on board with the work that you were doing.

Marcus, There was like. There was definitely some resistance, especially some that's not as tech savvy either. I mean, writing systems, it's simple, especially using System Hub. But the way that I was doing it using Asana, to me, that just made more sense to keep everybody accountable, to ensure that they're. They're updating their systems and everything. And. But the way that I laid it out in all the meetings is I kept just pounding in like, hey, like, we're doing these systems for a reason, so that we can be more efficient, so that you're not making all of these errors and mistakes and having to go to the higher ups to ask them, hey, how do we do this?

Or that?

And once I could get that into their mind, it just. Everything fell into place and they're like, okay, no problem, let's get into it. And I would say, not the biggest turtle, but it would. What I did is I would take a system and it'd be something completely irrelevant to another worker and say, hey, I want you to take this and go do it. Like, well, that doesn't fall under me. Like, no, I need you to go do it because you're going to be testing it to see if it makes sense to you. Because if it makes sense to somebody who has no idea what they're doing, then that's a good system. But if you have a million questions, that means we didn't write it correctly.

Yeah. Did you see like the evolution, Regina? Because you obviously were there with the previous systems champion and then Marcus stepped in and the systems evolve, like for. Depending on where a business is up to when they listen to this, sometimes it's just about capturing what you're currently doing and trying to get a base level. And then over time, it starts to be optimized and improved and made more efficient. I don't know if there's anything you can speak to about that journey, and I don't know anything if that jumps out to you, either challenges or insights that watching this evolve for the company.

Oh, well, I would say let's, let's talk about maybe some of the challenges. I think one of it would be the very fact that they do evolve because, you know, workflow, we can have something set in place, but when different platforms that we use, when they change their interface and they change their, their, their way of doing things, then our systems too would have to change. And sometimes the change is so rapid that. And so many things is going on within the company that we, sometimes we are not able to capture that new change. But what's good about having a system in place already is the baseline is there, the foundation is there. So having having those baseline structure, you generally can get an idea of what you should be achieving at the end. And if you don't, it's a simple tweak. And I think another challenge is also if, say, one of the team, the teammates are not very systems compliant, where they would go, I'll follow this SOP and do it. Sometimes you have one or two that just goes rogue and just does whatever they want. Yeah. So I think that those are the little challenges that is bound to happen and that happen as well.

I'm wondering, Marcus, one thing we talk about is the systems champion is not always like, they don't need to be the systems police. Like, the systems champion puts a lot of the foundations in place so that supervisors can then help to execute and meet when there's resistance, when people don't follow the process, how do you manage it in ncaa when people don't follow process or, you know, how would you nudge them to get them back on track?

A really good question. I don't think I really had to police them all that much. We had a really. I think we have a really compliant team and it was kind of like some psychology in there when they might ask a question in teams Regarding like that process and go, well, what does the SOP stay?

Right.

And then they'll go back to it. So then they kind of fell into, into that, you know, they fell into suit pretty quick just by by saying that.

So did you find like, as you have worked in this role, how long have you been in it now, this position?

Oh, it's been two years.

Yeah. And looking back, is there any difference in the way that you imagined the role to be versus how it is or is it as you imagined?

So it's actually exactly what I imagined it to be on board. And they said, okay, all you're going to be doing is documenting, you know, our processes, making sure that you're updating them regularly, they're staying accurate, managing the team to ensure that, you know, they get done. And then you're going to interview a lot of the knowledgeable workers so that you can get it on paper and you're going to go back and forth and test it and make sure that it works. Got it. It's easy. But then, you know, my creativity was like, I can actually reduce my work time if I build this into asana and create a different way of just managing the entire thing. And so it's definitely not what I imagined. I didn't imagine that it would be what it is now. Yeah, back then it was literally just, just write your document. Okay. It's good. Update the Excel spreadsheet with the updated date. Okay. You need to back it up, you know, the end of the year and that was it. Now it's this well oiled machine.

Oh, hey, I know you're tuned in right now, so I'll keep this super quick, but you like awesome YouTube videos, don't you? Well, there's not really that many YouTube channels that create great content about how to systemize your small business. So I want to make sure that you catch every video that I publish. So if you haven't already, firstly give this video the thumbs up and then go ahead and subscribe to my channel. You can even hit the bell notification to make sure that you're the first to know when I publish anything. So go ahead, do it right now, I'll wait a sec and then I'll transfer you back to the video. It sounds like you're quite technical, which is great to be able to try new tools and get your head around things. I don't know if you'd describe yourself as technical. I'm wondering what type of skills and actually maybe even the step before that. I'm curious to Know, what were you doing before you stepped into this role? Did you have a process background or had you worked in an organization that had a lot of process or. Yeah, what, what happened just before you started?

So in 2011, I joined the United States Marine Corps and I was a Marine for eight years. And the military is all systems driven. Everything is sop. The first time I heard the term SOP was in the military. I'm like, what is an sop? And later on in my career I ended up working in the embassies across all around the world. And Marines are the only ones that protect U.S. embassies. And that has to be systems driven because there's so many checks that we have to do in terms of roaming the compound, checking all the doors, locks, you name it, to make sure that it's secure at night and in the morning. And there's tons of stuff that we have to do, but there's no way that you can memorize the entire thing from the get go. So you have to read documents of some sort to make sure that you're checking in the box. And that's exactly what a system is. And then it came into me writing them as I moved up in the ranks and me almost running my, my own embassy, I had to revise them and update them because I get on post and I'd open up the binder and I'd be onboarding a new Marine, like, okay, this is not actually what we're doing. And so I had to rewrite it. And so that's where my like really attention to detail came from, is ensuring that all these, you know, everything was, was correct. And then, so when that, when this role opened, I was like, you know, I'd actually be really good at that. And they're like, so you're just going to write SOPs? I'm like, yeah, but it's, it's more than that. Like it's, it's a really important role that has to be done. That's what makes everything function.

Yeah, I love that responsibility and I talk about that in the new book the Systems Champion. Oftentimes as well, if it's new in the organization, like NACA already had some process in place and it was kind of already functioning. But for a lot of organizations where they don't have process, it's such a critical role to do something that most business owners never do and never get to, but crave it and need it and want it, but they just don't know how.

The benefit with NACR is that we have the personnel to go and do the, do the job. Most business owners, they're by themselves, they might have a few clinicians with them, but. And they don't have the time to do it. They know they won't, they know they need to, they want to, they just don't have the time to do it.

Yeah, I wonder how to like, I try and make the case for the business owner that, I mean, this is a worthy investment because it is in both time and money to make happen. And you're right. In smaller teams you're short on staff and it can be hard to devote the energy here. I'm wondering your thoughts on. For an allied health business, when is the sweet spot where it's kind of like you've really got to get systems in place and now's the right time. Maybe when it's them and they're a solo clinician, a couple of checklists just for themselves to remind themselves that that's enough. But there is a point where it crosses. I don't know, Marcus, if you have any ideas or thoughts on when you're like, hey, you must do this now.

I would say the moment that you get one team member, you have to have systems in place because you're now responsible for every action that they make. It's going through the whole assessments and filling out the notes and make sure that you're processing the referrals correctly and everything like that. Now if you, if I'm the business owner and I have to, I'm, I have my own clients, my own workload and now, you know, my staff member is asking me all these questions on how to do things. That's taken me away from my clients and that's a problem. So I would say even before you have one staff member, you should be just blueprinting what you're doing. And it's simple, it's literally just writing. The, the biggest problem is that they over complicate it. They say, well, a system has to be, you know, I've seen manuals of like 90 pages and I'm like, you don't need that, you just need your trigger. How what's going to set this one system off? Whether it's a phone, a phone call, somebody walking in the door, an email, something simple like that. And what is your end result that you want? And just put your trigger, put your end result, fill in the middle really quick and then you can fine tune it as you work. And you go, oh yeah, I do this little step. When somebody reads this, they're gonna, they're gonna appreciate that I put in this little bullet point and you just keep adding to it as time goes on. And I think it's a really good habit to do, even if you're a sole trader. And then once you get staff, your onboarding process is cut in half. Everything, you're going to be more efficient and you're going to hit the ground running when you start to expand.

Even as you describe this, I can tell that you just get it and it comes very natural to you. It's kind of like, well, how is there any other way? Of course this is the way that you do it. Like, that's. It's so obvious. I'm wondering, Regina, if, because you guys are a married couple, if, if a business owner was looking for a systems champion and you get to evaluate Marcus and think about the qualities that he has that makes him a good systems champion, are there certain characteristics that you're like, oh, this is what makes him excel in the role?

I think a person that can see the bigger picture and the smaller details at the same time. Because when it comes down to it, yeah, you need to be able to see, like Marcus described, the trigger point, the endpoint. Those are the big picture parts. What do I want to achieve with the system? But at the same time, being a systems champion, it's also about knowing the details that goes into it, that helps the. The person reading the manual understand what to do next without questions. Right. Because part of our, our past career, I would say, was also CrossFit level two coaches where we were taught you have to break down things so well that it is you just can achieve the result that you want on how that person demonstrates a movement in a way that that person can understand it. And that's always been a driving factor. So being able to see something on a big picture and at the same time paying attention to small details. I know that it sounds very far fetish like a unicorn, but they exist.

I almost feel like there are certain qualities that have already bubbled up as we've gone through the interview today. I think there's a level of curiosity there I can see in wanting to understand and being open to learning new things and trying new tech and going, oh, what's that? How does that work? And wanting to kind of improve it that way. In addition to some of the things that I've said and Regina said, Marcus, is there anything else that you just go, knowing how to do this or that or a particular skill has really made the difference in why you Think you operate so well as a systems champion.

At first, you would think that somebody who's really organized is going to be a great systems champion. But I could promise you the way that you see me color coat, like my closet or my clothes in general, you go, this guy is not organized at all. But then when it comes to work, everything is organized. I have to have it set in certain places. So you can't. If you see like a staff member and you go, oh, they're so messy, like their desk, like, look at their desk. That doesn't mean that they're, they're going to be a bad systems champion. Pay attention to how they, they do certain things, how they take notes. Maybe, you know, how they do paperwork. You're gonna, you're gonna identify that really quick. Especially how they take notes. If they're kind of just scrambled all over the place and the way that they communicate as well. If they want to paint a big picture in a story, but they don't get to the point, then they're probably not the right person. That's what I think, like, personal opinion. And you can see that in writing, too. Especially when you assign them a system to write and they get stuck because they won't. They're like, they have to explain too much. It's like, no, I need, like, bullet points, like, really cut and dry, concise, precise. That's going to be a really good systems champion. Another one is somebody who can ask. Who's not afraid to ask questions, and somebody who can ask the right questions. There's a lot of times, you know, Kathy's really busy and there's something like she's holding some knowledge that I need, and I can't sit there and, you know, hey, Kathy. And I'm beating around the bush. It's like, no, direct. I'm not scared. Go straight to her. I need this, and this is why. And she goes, sure. She gives it to me. Awesome. Now I can totally understand if somebody came into the role that's, you know, maybe a new grad and they're a little timid to ask the boss, like some key information. Like that's, that's, that's going to be a struggle. You need somebody who's, you know, who's not afraid and somebody who can think downstream. There's a lot of times where, yes, it's good to write systems on the way that we're doing it. Of course, that's like step number one. You're going to document how we're currently doing it. As time Goes on. We're going to refine it to how we want to do it in the future so that we can be more efficient, scalable, one day sellable, if that's what we choose. Or. But as you're writing the system, you need to like identify. Oh, like I see a problem here or I see a pain point or a bottleneck and then you need to go. That person needs to go to the, you know, knowledgeable worker and figure out how to solve that issue. Hey, I noticed this. What if we remove this? I just cut your time, you know, from 15 minutes from doing this task down to three because I removed all these steps. Do you need this? And so somebody who can identify all of those things, that is a world class systems champion versus just, you know, following suit. Oh yeah. Okay. I'm just going to clean up this, the system and organize it and make sure that it reads well.

Yeah. And I think to add onto that too, I think a person that is really strong in execution, so they need to be able to not just think plan, but also have the ability to execute what they want to achieve with the systems that they have in place.

Yeah, yeah.

Somebody with, you know, a growth mindset who sees the bigger picture and it's like, okay, I see what you have. That's a really good foundation, but we can make it so much better if we do this and then they just get it done.

Yeah, yeah. I love that you mentioned Kathy and maybe Regina, you'll have some ideas because you've been with the organization the longest. How have you seen Kathy change in the work that she does or, or how she does it? Like, it was really telling for me when I said I would love to do an interview. And then she said, well, you need to talk to Regina and Marcus. They, they kind of run the systems here. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. I don't know if you've seen an evolution and change in either the way that she works or how she thinks about systems or. Yeah, any, any evolution.

Well, I think she really, really takes on to what you've sort of advised all director CEOs to do, to be hands off systems. You, you're not the one writing the systems. You have the people who will do the work that will do the system writing for you. And she has always embraced that and she's actually gotten even better at it. In the beginning stages, she would go, oh, we must make sure that we have this in systems or we must make sure we docum sop just little snippets and reminders for the rest of the team to ensure that we add that in. But for the most part, Kathy is right. Like right now, she's just completely hands up with systems and just trust that the team is just embracing it and doing it and things are running well.

I would say the evolution was Kathy was doing everything. Like, when I came on, she was hands on the whole business. And I'm like, kathy, like, don't you have bigger, better, greater things to be doing? And she goes, I do, Marcus, I really do. But, you know, I need to ensure that this is done correctly. It's like, all right, well, let's, let's fix that now. I emceed the whole quarterly accelerator conference that we had last Friday. She used to run that and do sessions as well and do a lot of the planning. Now she's like Regina said, she's hands off to a lot of things where she's focusing more on the clients and other businesses and stuff like that.

So, yeah, I think that's the biggest piece. Getting the business owner out of the operations, off the tools out of the day to day so that the core product or service can get delivered and then the business owner can work strategically on what the business needs most to move it forward. That's a good step.

It's great because Kathy will actually ask me, what, what is our system in place right now for this task? What are we. What do we currently have on paper? Okay, we're doing this. Okay, let's, let's add this in there. Let's tweak this. Instead of. She doesn't go rogue and just says, I'm going to do my own thing. Like, she does consult me in the systems first, which is great. Other business owners, sometimes they just, they keep doing their own thing and kind of throws things, you know, out of whack.

Yeah. How? Because it sounds like things are always evolving and sounds like you're now in some of the later stages of systemology where you really start to think about optimizing and improving process. And obviously there's been a huge change with AI rolling through over the past couple of years. How has that sort of started to change the way that you do things? Marcus has it. And are you leaning on these tools to get more, more done with less? I'd love to understand a bit about that, definitely.

So when I stepped into the role and I would read some of the systems, I couldn't make any sense of it. It would just give me like a headache and I'm like, oh, it's just easier if I just delete it and start over and just do my process. Instead of getting flustered and, you know, sitting there with a headache, I just took it into AI and said, hey, help me make sense, organize this better. This is what we're trying to achieve from it. And then spat it out and gave it to me. Awesome. Like, for the most part, I would say 95% of it was on the money. And then from there I could tweak it a little bit. So that's how I use AI, how I consult other business owners when I'm helping them develop their systems champion is I give them a template and say, look, all you have to do is put in the template inside of chatgpt, Gemini, Copilot, whatever you're using and tell it exactly what you want, following this template and it's going to give it to you. Then from there you just refine it. And a big one that I think that a lot of people aren't using is the chat that you can just use the microphone instead of sitting there and typing it. Because as you type it, you get, you get kind of stuck, you know, and you're like, I don't know what to say next. But if you're speaking about it out loud, you're thinking and then you, you just tell jet, GPT, make sense of this for me. And then it does it. It's beautiful.

Yeah, I feel like we are. There's never been a better time to systemize a business or to be a systems champion. I feel like just right in the sweet spot now with how easy it is compared to historically, how the tools just make everything faster and more accessible to even junior team members. Like, I've seen great systems champions come out of the role of some juniors as long as they got the right qualities of really wanting it, with leadership potential. But there's something to also be said for someone who has some experience like you, because then it makes it very easy to know what to ask and what good looks like. So that's one of the benefit of, of having that as opposed to kind of figuring it out as we go.

One thing I would note though, is using AI and I have to mention this just because, like, it's important is that I don't use AI as like my. It's not a crutch for me. I don't rely on AI to do all of the work. You have to interact with it more. So you can't just say, okay, just write me the system. And then you're like, Yep, that's good. And then you just put on paper, you have to work with it, otherwise you don't fully understand the task at hand. That way you can't see the downstream impacts that it might have. Or any bottlenecks. You could ask it, is there any bottlenecks in this, in the system, but sometimes it could hallucinate and just give you some random answer. Oh yeah, I see this. You cut that step out. It's like, no, that's actually an important one. So you do have to brain a little bit and not, you know, solely rely on AI.

Yeah, yeah, definitely some human in the loop there. We're not completely replaced by robots just yet. So if, yeah. Looking back on your journey, Marcus, I don't know if there's anything, if you advice that you could give yourself if you went back just before you started the role or if there's anything either you'd say to yourself or if you're thinking about someone who's thinking about taking the role of a systems champion, if there's any advice that you might have for them.

I would say not to nitpick. Like that was my biggest, you know, and you, you said it even in your book. You know, don't get too caught up on the, on the finer details. Get the majority of it down on paper and then refine it later. And I fell victim to that pretty quick, knowing that I shouldn't do it. But as I'm reading the system or writing one, it's like I'm trying, I'm on step two and I'm trying to make it perfect. It doesn't have to be perfect the first draft, it's just a draft. Get the draft done, go through it, revise it. Otherwise you get two steps in and now you don't want to do it anymore because you get stuck and you get frustrated and then now you don't have systems in place. And so that would be, you know, my biggest advice is don't, don't stress too much to be a perfectionist. It doesn't have to be perfect from the get go. And they're always gonna evolve. I always thought like at first I thought, no, my system has to be perfect. Everything has to be in the right place and punctuations and this and that wrong. Like, you know, get it on paper. It's going to change in a month. It could change in a day, you know, so don't get too stuck on it.

Yeah, yeah.

You should have listened to the conversation that Marcus had with Kathy in our team Retreat. I think it was probably last year, July, and Marcus was still like, I want perfection, but. And Kathy just challenged him so hard and was like, but why? Why does it have to be perfect? It cannot be perfect. And you just. From. From then on, I think I've seen Marcus also change the way he approaches things, that it's okay to not be perfect. And I think that sense of perfectionism might have been me rubbing off on him. I think. I think.

Yeah, I would probably agree. I mean, there's nothing wrong with being a perfectionist. And I think I still. I'm still a firm believer that systems can be perfect, like, later on. But if you're trying to get the first 15 core systems to be perfect. Yeah, you're gonna have a really rough road ahead of you.

Yeah, almost like that. You just need to get momentum, because once you get the momentum that then you can gather speed and get more people involved, and it becomes this flywheel, and we get a little win, and then that reinforces that we're doing things right. And, oh, well, it's not perfect, which means another team member can step in and make the little micro change. And now they're invested and feel involved in the process.

Think of it as always leaving a little room for improvement.

Yes. I. I remember reading a book once where they said, oh, it was right near the end. It said, no, actually near the start. I've intentionally left some grammatical errors and spelling mistakes because I know there are some people out there who like to spot those. So I've left them in the book for you.

I love it.

No.

Very good. Well, I'll obviously put a link through to NACA so people can kind of keep an eye. And especially if you're in the allied health space, there is no better organization. They're so systems driven, lead by example, and really just get this stuff at a deep level. So I'll pop that link through there, and we'll continue the conversation with Kathy as well to hear her story. But just wanted to thank you so much for both of your time and sharing some inspiration and insights into the work you do.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.