Escaping Oppression in North Korea - Sunday Fireside Chat

Life Audio.

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Hi everybody, Dennis Prager here with Fireside Chat number 204?

203.

203. Uh, boy, I was so proud of myself. I was sure that after 200, I would really know when I blew it already at 2:03. Anyway, this is my home. This is my chance to talk to you about what is on my mind. We have no notes. We have no teleprompter. It's completely spontaneous. And of course Otto is here. Snoopy is making a visit because he has fallen in love with my guest. Wow, he heard Snoopy and he came over to me. That is rare. Are we getting this on video? I'm not sure in 203. People have seen me rub Snoopy.

Snoop!

He's a little jealous of his brother. Anyway, this is a very— this is truly one of the most important. I try to make every fireside chat important, but this, this is— this is what I care about the most in life, and that is evil. So a few words before I introduce my guest. Today, and I don't have many guests on the fireside chat, as you folks know, other than Otto, I guess, but he's not a guest, he's a host. Anyway, uh, since I was a child, I've been preoccupied with evil. I have no explanation. Everybody has a nature. Uh, it's something you come to realize, especially when you become a parent. You look at the child and go, they have, they have a nature. And we do. Whether God put it there or it's just there, it's there. So my nature has been a preoccupation with evil. I hate evil. What is evil? People deliberately hurt other people unjustly. It's not really complex. Whenever people ask me for a definition, I'm thinking, "You really don't know what evil is?" And the truth is people don't know what it is. That's the irony, and I will— that's a big theme in my guest's thinking, writing, and speaking, and we'll get to that, obviously. But I do want to share with you a few insights on evil and then our dialogue. I have often said, as long as I remember speaking, I have said this: people say that evil is dark. But that's not true. Evil is actually very bright. You can look at the dark, but you can't look at the very bright. Very few people stare at evil. They deny it. There's a very famous book called The Denial of Death, where— in— Ernest Becker, who wrote the book, speaks about the human desire to really deny that they'll die. But the truth is everybody knows they'll die. What people really deny is evil, because if you acknowledge evil, you have to fight it. And people are not brave. That's the human condition, and they don't want to fight it. They want to deny that it's really that bad. So I have seen this all of my life, especially with, with outside of Nazism, the great 20th century evil of communism. 100 billion people approximately were killed by communist regimes. Not in war. I'm not talking about deaths of soldiers. I'm talking about just innocent people tortured, starved, burned, shot to death. That's, that's the record. See, that's an example though of of people in a sort of denial. You should be shocked and horrified at what I just said. 100 million people in one century? But it doesn't— Stalin, the Soviet tyrant, who by the way made, made North Korea possible, tragically. Stalin was truly evil. Anyway, Stalin who killed about 20 to 40 million people of his own nation, Soviet Union, combination of Russia and other countries that the Russian Empire owned. He said, it's a very famous statement actually, "One death is a tragedy, one million is a statistic." That, that's the state of people. People's understanding of evil. So when I said 100 million, people don't fall down and go, oh my God, it's, it's too, it's too grandiose to even imagine. And remember, for every one of the 100 million, think of the ripple effect on family and friends and community. So we're talking about a billion people of staggering suffering that, that communism caused. And yet when I grew up, anti-communism had a bad name. Yeah. Oh, he's a— he's an anti-communist zealot. What's wrong with that? I hope you were an anti-Nazi zealot. Why aren't you an anti-communist zealot? Then there's one other aspect of evil that should be noted, and then my guest, and that is human nature. I, I have talked about this all of my life. I've written about this. I know I have met a naive person if the person thinks people are basically good. And naïveté in, in an adult is inexcusable. If a 5-year-old thinks people are basically good, He's 5 years old, she's 5 years old, what do you expect? But if a 25-year-old or a 50-year-old thinks people are basically good, they're foolish. They're definitionally foolish. They may be kind and sweet and loving and love animals and all good things, but they're foolish. If you— any system built on the belief that human nature is basically good is going to produce bad. You can only make a good world if you start out with an understanding of your ingredients. And the ingredients of the human condition are not basically good. Of course there's good in people, otherwise there'd be no good in the world. But you have to battle your nature. The tragedy in America is that half of America thinks that the problems in their lives are caused by others— by America, by whites, by men, by their parents, not by themselves. I was with a group of recovering alcoholics, drug addicts, a couple of weeks ago. Terrific guys, all sober for between 5 and 10 years. And I asked one of them, in his late 20s, I said, so tell me, when did you decide to become sober? I had no idea what he would say, and his answer was magnificent. The day I realized that I was the source of my problems, not others. That's the day he became sober. The left in America teaches you to blame others for your problems. One of the reasons it is so, so destructive. Therapists are destructive if they don't teach you that, yes, your parents may have done this and, and this, your teachers may have done that and so on, but you are the biggest problem in your life. And until you know that, You can't make a good world. Okay, that's a long introduction to a remarkable woman, Yeonmi Park. By the way, she was from North Korea. A word on North Korea. North Korea is a gigantic concentration camp, and that is not an exaggeration. Everyone is in prison. Some are in worse prisons than others, but everyone is in prison. And it is the ultimate totalitarian state where you are told not just what you can say, but what you can think. But most people don't understand. They hear just like the word, the word 100 million people hear this and they don't realize how evil it is. Somebody who does, who grew up in North Korea, Yeonmi Park, is my guest. She escaped. We'll talk about her escape. It is almost impossible today to escape North Korea. It is virtually— it was never easy. And if you were caught, you were tortured to death, and there's a good chance that your family was also tortured to death. Families were punished for the sins of others and still are in North Korea. So Yeonmi, welcome to the Fireside Chat.

Thank you for having me.

So you know about the Fireside Chat, right?

I do, because I've been watching this.

That's really wonderful. I'm very touched. So meeting Otto must have been a thrill.

Exactly. I feel like I know him. I think I know you too.

Oh, thank you. Well, you know me better than Otto. Uh-uh. Anyway, I'm very touched that you do watch. Good. So a little about you. You were born in what year?

1993.

1993. And you were from a town in North Korea near the Chinese border? Yeah, it's called Heizan, northern part of North Korea, which is what made it even possible to even think about escaping.

Yeah.

Had you been in the center of North Korea, would be impossible because you can't move around, correct?

You don't even know what escape means. That's not in your, like, vocabulary. So this is what North Korea does— they get rid of the words like, you know, liberty, love, and escape. So revolution— we don't learn about revolution, so we don't even know what that is. And this is why it's so effective when you control the language because you remove the possibility.

So really there's no word for escape?

No. So I did not even know that was a possibility. When I was younger, I did not know. And then just one day when you're so starving looking at China, that's like, maybe I have to go there. But I did not know that was escaping. I only learned when I came to South Korea and America, they told me that was escape.

I want to talk to you about the vocabulary issue in a moment. But first, a little more about your story. So whose idea was it to leave North Korea?

It was my idea, my sister's idea.

Even though you had no word for escape?

Want to go there, find food. That's what—

Oh, you wanted to find food.

We want to go there and then find food.

So were you able to see China from your house?

Yeah.

Oh, that you were that close?

Yeah, just one river across.

And it looked much richer?

I could literally someday smell it, smell the ramen, like the smell. And then Chinese kids, right, in North Korea we don't have the running water or laundry machines. We go to the river, we wash our clothes and we bathe in the river. So when I go to the river and bathe and wash my clothes, the Chinese side of kids come out, they are all well fed and round-faced. They ask me like, "Hey there, are you hungry?" And I was like, "Shut up, you fat Chinese. I'm not hungry, right?" Like, I had a pride for my nation. And then I would lie, like, "We are not hungry. We have nothing to envy in this country." That's what the regime told you.

That's right. Of course. You were told, if I'm not mistaken, that it's the greatest country in the world.

Yeah. We had to sing a song called "Nothing to Envy." "Nothing to Envy." Yeah. We had nothing to envy in this world.

Can you sing a little of it? I mean it.

Yeah.

Go ahead. Like it's a hanurun purugo, like the sky's blue, that our dear love loves us. Like, I know we have not— he's saying it like there's nothing to envy in this world.

Nothing to envy.

Yeah.

Except for food, life, freedom, family, beauty, love.

Yeah.

Okay. But otherwise, nothing to envy. That's— I would change the words. Otherwise, I would put that in. Otherwise, nothing to envy.

This is the first song you learn from your mother's birth till you die and you sing this song.

It's very, very difficult for most people to imagine. I do. I've studied it my whole life. I'm not bragging. I'm just saying I know I have a sense, a deep sense of what you're saying, of what it is like to be there. So it was your idea, not your mother's idea?

No, I mean, it was really just, we thought we would be children. We could even go easily, go there, maybe some begging some food and then come back. And we just had no idea what even escaping was dangerous. We just knew there was guards preventing us to go there, right?

Yes.

So a lot of things were not like it's thought. So North Koreans do not have the ability to think critically. So when I was there, they made us to believe that Kim Jong-il was starving like us. They said, "Kim Jong-il, dear leader, is starving." And I was crying on New Year's Eve like, "Please, dear leader, get some rest and eat food." And because I was worried about him, he is going to die from exhaustion. So when I went to South Korea, they're like, "He's not starving. Look at him. He's a fat guy in the picture. He's the only fat one in North Korea." And but in North Korea you don't have the critical thinking ability, so I could not see. Even on TV seeing him every day, I still believe that he was starving while he was being so fat.

Oh, is that interesting.

Yeah.

He is the only fat man in North Korea.

Absolutely.

I never thought of that. Although he's now lost 40 pounds. Did you know that?

But still he's 200 pounds and I'm like—

So why did he lose so much weight? Do you have any idea?

I recently heard it because he's so overweight that—

oh, he just did it, he went on a diet or whatever. Okay, yeah, but that is such an interesting point. Yeah, poor Kim is starving too. Yeah, so what if he's 100 pounds overweight?

Yeah.

Oh my God. Okay, so how old were you when you had the idea of, hey, I got to get more food over the border?

It was around 13 because that's when the situation got really, really hard on us that we couldn't find really more food. And that's when I was like the last one.

So did you say this to your mother?

We did.

And how did she react?

I mean, she could not feed us.

Right, so did she say, "Good idea, let's get out of here"?

No, she was not going to leave. My sister and I were going to escape, the two of us.

So did she say to you, "Go ahead"?

She said, "Yeah, but just be careful." Be careful, my God. Be careful.

This is not like a trip to Florida, you know, where there are alligators.

But the thing is, like, in North Korea, death is so near. Like, you see that Everybody's on the streets every day. Like, dying is not a big deal there.

Like, that's right.

It's like here, whenever I see people, like, somebody died, it's such a big funeral. Like, in North Korea, dying is almost like where somebody broke their leg, that kind of news. Okay, somebody died, and it's not like—

are there funerals in North Korea?

If the family can, they do have, but a lot of deaths, we don't even know who they are.

So most of them just died of starvation.

Yeah, just on the street floating, dead bodies floating like around on the river, and we just don't know who they are. It's, um, yeah.

So at 13, how old was your sister?

16 years old.

And the two of you decide, we have, we have to go for food.

Yeah.

Not, we have to go for freedom.

I mean, you don't know the word freedom. How do you fight? I mean, that's the thing, like, we don't even know what that is. So we didn't fight.

I think that's a very, very important thing that, that what, that people know that you, you didn't even hear the word And by the way, if you don't hear a word, you don't know it. No, people don't realize that. So that in, in 100 years ago, in parts of Africa, if I would say, oh, it's where I come from, it snows. What is snow? So this, uh, notion of you never heard the word, people don't realize The human being can only think about what they can think about.

Yeah.

So it was not even in your mind, oh, we'll be free. By the way, which is somewhat of a joke because China's not free.

Yeah.

But compared to North Korea, there's no comparison, clearly.

Yeah.

So your mother did not object. I find that fascinating.

Because we were going to die. Because you—

oh, okay. Anyway, she— And did you have a father?

I did.

Did you tell him?

Yeah.

And he said the same thing? Be careful?

Yeah.

Just be careful. So your parents faced this choice. Death by starvation, death by being killed by a Korean guard. Is that fair to say?

Yeah. So he was able to escape. So North Koreans, when they escape, it's not even like Syrians or Mexicans. We don't have a map. We don't have a phone. We don't have a plan. Imagine your house just caught on fire. You live in the apartment, like 10th floor. You caught on fire, right? You have no exit. What are you going to do? The last thing you can do is jumping out of the window and see if you make it or not. That's what we do. We just jump out of the window, and if we make it, we are lucky. If we die, I mean, we're going to die, burn to death anyway. Why do you bother? So that's the last choice we do is that.

Right, exactly.

That's why we risk our life for that.

Correct. So what did you do, bribe a guard?

I did not know, I didn't have money.

Well, how did you get out?

So I was about to get out, but I got sick, and then they, my mom took me to hospital, and the doctor said I had appendicitis. They had to remove the appendix in that afternoon, and they removed it without any anesthesia, and that's why—

Without anesthesia?

Yeah.

You were opened up without anesthesia?

That's very common, like they cut the bones without anesthesia, like It's a very normal practice in Mexico.

Do they give you alcohol? I mean, what do they do to— I mean, how could a human being be cut open and not go crazy?

You do. You lose your mind. You faint. You're like conscious so vague. So you come back out of pain and you scream and then you pass out. But for me, like, I don't remember even like screaming, but my mom heard like I screamed like, you know. Dog that was getting killed by humans, that kind of sound. It's not even a human sound.

So in North Korea there's surgery but no anesthesia.

Yeah.

I'm sure there's anesthesia for Communist Party officials.

Oh, they do.

Yes.

They have everything.

They have everything, exactly right. The land of equality. So okay, so you got better?

I did. I mean, I got out 7 days later, but my sister couldn't wait because we were really running out of food. So she left while I was in the hospital. But when she left, she left a note under the pillow at house. So when I got out of hospital, I found a note that my sister left saying, "Go find this lady at this address." And then as soon as I got out, I walked there with my mother in the morning and then knocked the door and asked her, "We are looking for my sister." And initially she said, "I don't know who your sister is." She was afraid that we were going to report her or not. So I was like, "No, no, it's okay. I'm trying to go to China too. Can you help me too?" and she said yes, and she's like, you can go today. And then it's like, you want to go?

Why did this woman do it? For money?

I don't know. I didn't ask.

Do you? So you don't know even until today?

Now I know because she sold me.

She sold you?

Yeah.

Oh, to Chinese?

To— yeah, as a sex slave.

As a sex slave.

That's why she helped me.

So she was making money from the Chinese.

But the thing is Do you know she had, I think if I don't misremember, 5 children. She sold them all.

She sold her own children?

And then she later got executed. But if she didn't—

Executed by the North Korean regime?

But the thing is, if she didn't sell me, I would not be here. There's one person that I need to be grateful for is her.

Right, I want to make that clear. Better to be a sex slave in China than to die in North Korea.

Absolutely.

That I agree with you, by the way. I agree with you. Life is precious.

Exactly. Yeah, so she did me a favor. Like, I am grateful that she sold me. So she told me—

How did you know that she was executed?

Later, I still work with North Korea. I do rescue mission. I rescue North Korean defectors to freedom. So we have the guards, I mean, network there. So following year, she got executed. But thank God she sold all her children.

Did you know that you would be a sex slave in China?

Of course, I did not even know what sex was. I did not have that vocabulary.

That's a good point, right. And ironically, you didn't know what a slave was because you already were a slave. But did you know what China was?

I knew the name, but I did not know China was a big country or anything. What is the highway? I never even seen the highway. I never even seen the car like with the AC, nothing like that. So I just saw the electricity lights.

How old were you when you got out?

13 years old.

And your sister was with you?

No, sister left me 4 days before.

I know, but I thought you caught up with her.

No, I did not. I lost her for 7 years. I caught up with her in South Korea.

7 years?

Later, yeah.

So you were completely alone in China?

Initially, I was. I went to China with my mother, and then they sold us separately. So that's why I became a woman.

She was sold too?

Yes, she was sold.

Why didn't your father escape?

Because this lady, I mean, my father was a man. They cannot sell a man, right? You cannot sell a man.

Oh, there's no reason to help a man escape?

No, only women. Because of the one-child policy, there are 40 million men cannot find wives. They need women.

So you're sold as a sex slave essentially to one man?

No, there's a human trafficking ring in China.

Right. So, okay. Oh, I see. So this wasn't about finding a wife. This is finding a woman.

No, slave. Someone to—

Yes, right.

It's not—

Finding a slave. But it's not about finding a wife.

No, Chinese regime does not recognize us as refugees. So we can never be a wife there. We are fugitives. We run around. Oh, God. Yeah.

So did your father ever reconnect with the family?

I did find him later. I found him. I found my mom eventually.

But your father was still in North Korea?

And then that's why I sent the person to North Korea and brought him to China through the brokers.

You got him to China through the help of whom?

Brokers who rescue, who, who sell these women. So through them, so there is a broker ring that getting these girls out and sell them in China. So I use the exact same network.

Why wasn't your father killed by the regime? His whole family escaped.

He was getting tortured, but then they wanted to keep him as a hostage to bring us and catch us.

When your father escaped, was he in a camp?

He was home, he was home, but he was getting tortured and being beaten and constantly torturing all our family to look for us.

And you met your father?

Mm-hmm. I saw him again.

Did the torture have an effect on his mind?

Of course. He could not look at human eyes again. Because in prison, they teach them that you are not even animal. So they teach you not to look at the guard's eyes. You're such a subhuman. You don't deserve to look at guard's eyes. So he's been so practicing in the prison that he cannot look into human eyes. When he got out, he never looked at my eyes ever again. And he was singing songs like, "I'm regretting that I was not a better revolutionary." My father wasn't like that, but he changed. They killed his soul forever.

They did. They killed his soul forever.

Yeah.

So you really didn't, your father died really?

He died, yeah, when he got captured by the regime. His spirit died, but in China his body died. And even the last word was, when you told me that people in Cuba are getting educated, right? They are literate, but why is socialism better? Like my father was saying, Even if in China you are a sex slave, never try to escape to be free. Stay in China and do everything you can to stay here. Never take Dennis.

Exactly. That's what he said.

Yeah.

How long were you in China?

2 years.

From 13 to 15? Yeah. And then what?

And then Somehow this human trafficker who bought me still had some humanity in him. He was a gambler. He got broke. And then he was letting me go. But then, like, as a North Korean, where do you go in China?

Right, yes.

Like, literally, you have nowhere to go.

Right.

So we found another— through North Korean defectors, there's 4 places North Korean women end up in China. One is just like the sex slaves to North Korean and Chinese farmers. Second is brothel, the prostitution, where you gave 10 times a day. Third is where organ harvesting. China is the number one organ exporter. So they kill us and take our organs out. The last place actually is a chat room, where they put the girls inside a room and lock them down and they make them to chat and show their bodies to customers in South Korea. Among those 4 options, the best option I got was chatroom.

Of course.

Where I don't get touched by men physically. So in that chatroom, turns out those customers were South Koreans.

Right.

And turns out South Korea is not starving and colonized by Americans. So in North Korea, they teach us that South Korea—

Oh, so you learned about South Korea being a naked chatwoman.

Yeah. What an irony.

We're entering This is the definition of dystopia, the opposite of utopia. But this is kind of first-hand experience. Okay, so we're working on how you got out of China, so go on.

In the chat room, I found out that South Korea is a democracy and free. So, and then I heard there is missionaries, and I was like, what the heck is a missionary? I never heard that. I never even knew the word of religion. And there's like some religious people gonna help us if we become Christians. So I called the number and then he said, okay, we're gonna help you.

Wait, you learned this in a chat room?

Because there's more North Korean defector women in the same chat room. She heard somewhere that missionaries rescue North Korean women and she got the number and she gave the number to me. So I called the person and then he said, like, let's pray in the name of Jesus Christ. I was like, What is praying? I never heard such a word, pray. And then like, okay, do you guys want to make this journey to freedom? I was like, yes, we do. And they took us to the shelter in China where we like study Bible for a month and memorize Psalms. Like, you know, we do fasting and we really train to become Christians. And then once we prove our faith to them, That's when they told us, "Okay, if you want to escape from China, then you have to walk across the frozen Gobi Desert from China to Mongolia with a compass. We cannot take you because, I mean, that desert, chances of not making it is like 99%." So they cannot guide us. They just take us to the border in China, give us a compass, so now walk across the desert. And if you are lucky ending up in North Korea, that's in the name of God. God's grace. It's at this point, it's not up to us. It's God gotta show mercy. And pray in the desert, he's gonna guide you.

Why are these— these are South Korean Christians?

Yeah.

And why, once you cross the border into Mongolia, could they not just fly you to South Korea?

You don't have paper. We don't have passport. How do we— how to get on the airplane?

South Korea does not make it easy for a North Korean defector?

No, they don't.

This is a very important subject that people need to understand. Why not?

Because China is too powerful. China does not want North Koreans to escape from China. All they want is to send us back to North Korea. China has the biggest export trading with China, and their economy heavily relied on China, so they have to listen to Chinese. So South Korea gonna help you if you get out of China on your own.

Right, but if you get to Mongolia, why don't they help you once you're in Mongolia?

That's when they helped us.

But you said that 99% of the people die in the desert.

Because of the crossing Mongolian desert, in the Gobi Desert from China to Mongolia, nobody can come with us. In the, literally in the desert, there are like 16 wire fences. A lot of them, all electrified fences. If you touch, you die. They're so highly electrified.

And who put those fences up? China?

We don't know which gods, but it's a border.

I know. So is it, is it to prevent Chinese from leaving or prevent Mongolians from going to China?

I don't think anybody would dare to get into Gobi Desert. They— there's so many animals too.

They're gonna eat you. Oh, it's a Oh my God.

So—

How long were you in the Gobi Desert?

We were lucky, only one day there, because it was like -40 degrees in February in 2009. Who's we? We were in a team, 8 people with one toddler. So you cannot go in the desert on your own. It's very— a lot of animals. You have to be a team to defend yourself if you ever get attacked by animals.

Was it 8 women?

One man and 7 women.

And what nationality was the man?

We're all North Koreans. We're all North Korean defectors.

Was he Christian?

We all were Christian.

Oh, you were all Christians by then?

Yeah.

Did you really believe in Christianity or you did it to escape?

No, you do. Later I did not become one after a while because, but then it's like, I was so desperate, right?

No, no, I'm just asking. I don't think, I think it was the right decision.

But the thing is I don't think even I had the energy to fake it because I was so desperate. Like, if they asked me to believe in a rock, I would have believed in a rock.

Correct.

Because anything that would save me, I would have believed in.

That's right.

And so I don't think I didn't even have to fake it. I really truly believed anything that excuse me, I'm gonna believe that, I'm gonna pray for that.

Well, by the way, just comment, I would say many American university students believe in rocks.

Oh, really?

So your point is very well taken. Oh my gosh, I'm only, I'm only slightly exaggerating. Okay, so what happened after a day in Mongolia?

We got caught by Mongolian soldiers, and then, and then they said they're going to send us back to China and back to North Korea.

The Mongolians said that?

Yeah, so they put the knives, like put your head down.

But they knew if they sent you back to North Korea, you'd be killed.

Yeah.

And they didn't care?

They did not care.

Beautiful world.

Exactly.

Right. So what happened?

So when North Koreans escape, it's during the Holocaust, right? The Jewish people would like try to kill themselves before sent to gas chamber.

Right.

So like that, we have the poisons, we have the knives with us. So we were all trying to kill ourselves in front of the Mongolian soldiers. The last minute they stopped us. And then, but with the team that came after us, they went too far. So one of the lady that we knew, she swallowed the poison. But later we learned these guys had no intention to send us back. They just wanted to have fun with us.

To see. So they were sadists.

Yeah.

To have fun.

So it was fun to watch you suffer and try to kill yourself.

Yeah.

Okay. Certainly does substantiate my earlier point about human nature. So still, how did you get out?

After that, all that thing, we were trying to kill ourselves, they eventually stopped our game and then took us to Mongolian base, soldier base. And then they called the South Korean embassy. South Korean embassy came and then they got our information and make sure that we are North Koreans. They do the interrogation on us. After 2, 3 months in the detention center in Ulaanbaatar, they took us to South Korea.

So they did help you in some way, South Korea?

Yeah, in Mongolia they did, not in China. Once we made it to Mongolia, that's when they helped.

Did you make friends with any of these other 7 women?

I did, yeah. But the thing is, North Koreans, we learn not to trust women.

That's right. That's so true.

So it's hard to be real friends.

Among the many things you didn't know was the word friend.

We have comrade.

Comrade, which has nothing to do with friend.

Yeah, so we are—

Even Comrade Kim.

Yeah, exactly.

Right.

Yeah.

Like Comrade Stalin.

Yeah.

So you were flown to Seoul or somewhere else?

Incheon Airport from Mongolia. Incheon Airport.

Yeah. And you— Then what? Because you have no money, you have no relatives, you have no contacts.

But not only that, they had to take us to hospital first because in our entire life we've never been medically examined. So we could have bring disease to South Korean population. So we had to be sealed from South Korean population. First place you— they take you out of the airport is like they using the separate gate. Take us to hospital and then ask me to pee. I'm like, I never peed in the cup. Like, why do I have to pee? They check your health status and if you carry any disease. And then once I'm cleared, then they put me in the interrogation center for 2 months. That's when they really going down to you. Are you a spy? Are you actually the person that you— who you are saying? And they say, why don't you recite the The revolutionary, the oath that every North Korean must remember. Like, if you are North Korean, you all know these things, right? You remember by heart. So we recite all of them. Who are our teachers? Where we live to our school. We have to draw a map for them. After this vigorous interrogation, then that's like, okay, if you are proven not spy, you can go into reeducation. It's like kind of camp. Where they take us there and then teach us that Americans are not bastards. Americans are not colonizing South Korea, that Korean War started by Kim Il-sung, not by Americans. And tell us what democracy is. And also tell us how to take a bus. I mean, we are like coming from different planet. We don't even know what coffee is. We don't even know, you know, what anything, like what AC is, right? So we really like big adult kids, like toddlers, have no clue about the world. So they teach us, you know, what is bank, because we don't know what bank is. What is, you know, shopping mall? What is a supermarket? Literally going from every single subject and teach us there.

Okay, what happens next?

After the 3 months, they send you out to the world and then That's where you figure out your life. So we—

And that's a challenge, isn't it?

Of course it's challenging.

Because you never were free, but freedom comes with responsibility.

It does. Now you have to work and you have to make living and you're doing it for yourself.

Was that uncomfortable?

It was painful. It wasn't just uncomfortable, it was painful. I literally was— I never knew how to think, right? I mean, learned thinking was hard. So I, every time in South Korea in the beginning, I think for 5 minutes, I get so exhausted from thinking. I like have to take a break for 5 hours. And the next day I'm okay, today I'm going to think 10 more minutes. I literally had to do that. Thinking, so they were saying, "Na, what do you want to do in South Korea?" I'm like, do I have to know? Why can't you just tell me what to do? In North Korea, when you're born, your life was determined for you before your birth. Based on what my great-grandfather did. And in South Korea, suddenly they say, "What's your favorite color?" And I'm like, "Do I have to know?" Because in North Korea, nobody asks you, "What do you think?" They tell you your favorite color is like red. It's a revolutionary color. And South Korea, learning how— thinking for myself, that was very exhausting.

So did you have an apartment?

We got this government housing for the first a year or 6 months, but I went to the small, like, underground.

What work did you do?

I worked in dollar store called Daiso. It's a dollar store. I was working at the wedding, like the serving server, like a wedding, you know, waitress, and those kind. And I was studying too, so I was studying and working at the same time.

How do South Koreans treat North Koreans?

They have a lot of stereotypes of North Korean people. So they say, oh, because you're from communist country, you must not work hard and you must not understand.

Well, were they wrong? Because you're saying we weren't taught to take care of ourselves.

Yeah.

But you did work hard because you had to, you had to find food.

Exactly.

You worked for You worked as a slave, but you didn't have to think.

Right. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

What are the stereotypes?

That, I mean, that like they don't understand the culture. Like they don't know the way of that Western mind thinking that they have, especially the men, right? North Korean men don't know what, like how to treat women. They, every day women get beaten by men in North Korea, like their husbands. And when they go to South Korea, they don't even know what consent is. So a lot harder for men to adjust than women. And the accent is a bit more like aggressive. The North— we don't know the words, right? Like friends. And we don't know so many things. So South Koreans does look down on us like second citizens. That we are like not a full human for them.

Did a South Korean man want to date you, take you for coffee, or—

Yeah, South Korean men actually like North Korean women because North Korean women are traditional. The South Korean women don't want to have kids. They don't want to even get married. But North Korean women still think having children and having family is important. So actually, women have much better time in South Korea because South Korean men, they're conservative men. North Korean women, but then North Korean men are too rough for South Korean women. And so North Korean women also want the South Korean man who is very gentle and nice.

And makes a living.

Yeah, so it's, as a North Korean man in South Korea, very hard to find a partner. It's, uh, it's really hard for them.

How many North Koreans have made it to South Korea?

South Korea's a lot, over 30,000. Yeah.

Well, it's a lot and not a lot.

Yeah, it's 75 years.

Yeah, exactly, 75 years.

Yeah.

So you are now how old? What, about 17?

I am 27.

No, no, no, no, no. At this point in the story.

No, I was still 15 or 16. South Korean age, I was 17.

Yeah, 17.

So right.

So you're 17 alone. Did you make any friends?

I tried, and then as soon as they found out that I was North Korean, they literally called me in the middle of night, like, "Why? Are you a spy? Why are you friends with me?" So, the discrimination was impossible.

Really?

Yeah. So—

What about a man friend?

I mean, they were fine.

Was that possible?

They were fine, but by then I was so traumatized by men in China.

I would think so.

I would never, like, date anybody. I would not like have any, any romantic.

I'm surprised that that didn't remain a permanent part of your life. Thank God it didn't.

Exactly. It took some time. It took— I wouldn't say that it took one day, right? But I think it took— but remembering my father was a man who was my hero. Like, he was the most selfless person I've ever met. I think when you're in a safe place, you can have perspective, right? And you don't have to think for your survivor. So when I was being in America, being safe and thinking about all the good men that I met in my journey, that really helped.

Okay, so how did you get from South Korea to America?

So I had a speech that I gave in Ireland, Dublin, where it's international conference. I gave my first speech there.

Why did they invite you?

They— so this is called the One Young World Conference. They bring all the world young leaders from all around the world, and they asked North Korea to send their delegation because it's like your Youth Olympic for the youth leaders. And North Korea says we can only send 3. It's like, they're like, why? Because they have to spy on each other. So if it's 3 of us here, I spy on you, you spy on Megan, Megan spies on me. So even I'm being so nice, I'm not gonna report on you. But I know that I'm being watched by her. But then you're also watching her. So we are being spied, you are spying. They say, at least you got to send 3 to spy on each other. So they said, okay, then why don't we sponsor 2 people and you sponsor 1 person to come to this conference that we're joining? And they said no. And they said, okay, then we are going to find North Korean defectors. And that's how they found me. Because North Korea—

Were you officially a North Korean Delegate?

There I was. So I was in North Korea.

Were you? Yeah. North Korea would not accept you.

No, no. So I would not representing North Korean organization.

You weren't. But you were a North Korean young person there.

Yes. Yeah.

So you gave a speech in Ireland.

Yeah.

And?

That was—

In what language?

In English.

Where did you learn English?

I taught myself.

Well, your English is superb. You taught yourself in South Korea?

Mm-hmm.

You're an exceptional human being.

Oh, thank you.

No, no, no, it's not even a compliment, it's just a fact. So, okay, so you gave the speech in Ireland and then what?

That was viewed by like almost a billion people. That broke the internet. So that's when Penguin Random House called me. It's like, we're calling from Penguin Random House. I was like, why is it called Penguin Random House? Penguin, like the bird calling me, right? I have no idea what Penguin Random House is. And they want to write a book. So my publisher was in New York and agent was in New York. That brought me to America to write a book.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

From North Korea to America.

Yeah. I was 21 by then, so.

And then you stayed.

And then I joined Columbia University. So that's how I stayed even longer. Mm-hmm.

Which brings us to the very, very serious topic of your— what you were studying at Columbia. So you enrolled in Columbia University, and I should let you say it, but I'll just let you comment on it. Is it fair to say that to your shock, you spent the next few years hearing how bad America is?

Yeah.

Not only that, they are the source of every problem that humanity got. The only way for us to be better and get rid of our problem is getting rid of America. Not just bad, that they are teaching us that only reason, only way we can move forward from all our problems like systemic systemic oppression, racism, and, you know, those xenophobia, homophobia, all of that is because of white men and American imperialism. Only way to solve that is tearing down US Constitution, get rid of this country, tearing down this country. So that was every single class in the 4 years I learned at Columbia.

For that alone, it was really significant to, to have you on this Dennis Prager fireside chat. I return to the word shock. You know evil. You know the good America has done. And then you come to an American university to hear that America is evil.

Yeah.

So you must have thought this is another planet.

Yeah.

Planet A, North Korea. Planet B, South Korea, Planet C, America.

Yeah.

Or at least an American university. Did you ever speak up in class? And I'm not saying you should have, but did you?

I have tried many times.

And say, I don't know what you're talking about. You people don't know what you're talking about.

So for instance, like my professor said, do you know, like, when men holding a door for you, what does that mean to you? Is it good? Oh, decency, being a gentleman. Like, no, this is where you need to be woke about. You need to look at the hidden oppression by the men, that by holding a door for women, they are overpowering you. They're showing off their power. And this is a masculine— I mean, masculine—

what subject was the class?

This is some of our social studies, one of the core requirements that we take about the global—

And this was a man who said this?

It's a woman. But this is another man class I'm going to give you example. He was actually Jewish professor about Western civilization music. We all have to take that art and music, right? And then before leaving class, he says, so who has a problem calling this course Western civilization music? And everybody raised their hands like, I did not. And then he's like, do you know because of this bigots, that white men silenced so many women and the people of color, then now we have to study this unbelievable Mozart and Beethoven, this like white supremacist. And it's unbelievable Columbia is requiring this class as a mandatory core for you guys to study. I cannot believe this world. And this is a professor who's Jewish, by the way.

So, so nothing against him, but the thing is, I have a lot against him.

Yeah.

I'm Jewish and I'm embarrassed.

So I hold her hand and I ask him, like, after all, we are in the West. And in Korea, we learn Korean musicians, American musicians. We are trying to be open-minded, global-minded. What's wrong with studying Western artists that had a lot of influence in our, like, course of music in the history? He's like, no, that's because you're brainwashed. And every single time I speak up, they say I'm brainwashed. And that's like, okay, they—

by the way, for the record, Korea, South Korea, is one of the, the, the biggest cultural centers for classical music. Yeah, the Seoul Symphony Orchestra is one of the great orchestras of the world, and they're playing Beethoven.

Exactly.

And not because Koreans believe in white supremacy.

No.

They believe in the supremacy of excellence.

Absolutely. I mean, I never thought, I mean, studying Beethoven, listening to Mozart was a sign of white supremacy. I just never thought that. No, no, no.

You have to go to Columbia where I went. It's gotten worse, but it was the same nonsense. It's worse than nonsense. Same horrible, destructive ideas. And most of your fellow students agreed, right? They bought this.

All of them. All of them raised their hand, except other than me.

Other than you.

And then, like, you know, in my orientation, before the classes, it's like, so who loves to read Jane Austen? It's like, me, right? Until in North Korea, I didn't even know what love was. So for me, reading something that was written before Kim was, like, unbelievable. There was a history before Kim existed. And there's a book about love back even old days that people talking about love. And then, do you know, this is how you look for hidden oppression again. Hidden, you know, the agenda from white men. Because Jane Austen was alive during the white colonialism, during the white supremacy. Therefore, by reading her work, you are being brainwashed by white men, white people. So this is how you be woke. Look for the hidden infiltration of our enemies. And it's literally, that's what North Korea says in the classroom. Enemies are behind the trees, enemies are under the ground. They are infiltrated everywhere.

Well, you have basically said that you heard more anti-American propaganda at Columbia than in North Korea?

Almost the same. I think in North Korea everything is about America, right?

Everything horrible.

And in Colombia, exactly the same thing. Everything is like a problem with America and white men.

Do you have a theory, and you may not, it's not an easy question, do you have a theory as to why there's so much America hatred in America?

I don't. Why?

Right. Well, it's very— it's a very difficult question. How do you grow up in the freest country in the world and hate it? Mm-hmm. It— there's no purely rational answer, actually, and I've studied this question my whole life. But you and I have spoken once before, or twice before, the radio and in person, and we both independently came to realize that these are all substitute religions.

Yeah.

Which is my— that I do believe that They're sort of empty souls that need something to believe in, and anti-Americanism has become their religion. They don't, they don't believe in freedom. They don't believe in God. They don't believe in Christianity. They don't believe in Judeo-Christian values. Everything is gone. So, but you have to believe in something or you kill yourself. So America represents everything they hate: capitalism, liberty, religion, assimilation of peoples. They, they, they hate all of that. And it's still, it's still, it's still hard to understand.

Yeah.

So let's take the video question because it leads exactly to what I want you to comment on. So if you can't hear it, I'll repeat it for you.

Hi, my name is Jacob. I'm 17 years old and I'm from Greenville, South Carolina.

As a refugee from North Korea, you know what true oppression is. What frustrates you most about the American left's idea of oppression?

That's a good one.

It is. I thought you'd like it.

No. I mean, this is a funny thing. So at Columbia, with these people spending hundreds of grand to go there, right? Why they can afford to be a vegan? That how they are talking about they are vegan and fighting for animals and like eco-friendly products, and they talk about how they're oppressed. And I'm like, do you guys know that people who are actually oppressed don't even know that they are oppressed? If you know you're oppressed, you are really not oppressed. And that's what they don't get here. Like, you know, people in North Korea, they don't even know they're oppressed. And here they don't even know the definition of oppression and using this word oppression on every single thing. Like, man holding a door is oppression. I mean, like, reading Jane Austen is oppression. I mean, like, not having your own bathroom for your specific pronoun is oppression. Like, every single thing is oppression. It's like, something became a game for them.

That's exactly right. It is a game for them.

Yeah. It becomes a competition. Who can find more oppression?

That's what it is.

Who can title more oppression? It's almost like that prize that you look for. Where can we find another oppression? It's an entire class we spend that what they call critical thinking is looking for that oppression.

So you come to America and you see what's going on. Is it depressing?

Beyond depressing. I mean, after North Korea, like, I lost my faith in humanity. Like, I have so seen the worst of humanity, I lost it all. And when I came to America, I found that love, that I started believing people again. I believed that world was good again. And going to Colombia, I can know these idiots, I mean, whatever you call, useful idiots.

Idiots is fine.

These idiots. Can literally take us to country like North Korea.

That's right.

They can be make us like China. And because of them, now I'm worrying about my son. Like, I thought best thing I gave to him was giving him the free country where he doesn't have to worry about oppression. Now I'm not sure. Like, I'm fighting for my freedom of speech right now in America. How he's gonna be free here, right?

I'm really worried. Because This is the point. The issue is not Korea. The issue is the left.

Yeah.

The left ruined half of Korea. The left will ruin America. The left ruins everything it touches. There is no exception in the history of the left.

Yeah.

It's pure—

like a shark. It just eats everything that it sees.

Yeah.

It devours everything. It is a sick part of the human condition. By the way, you said you lost your faith in humanity.

Yeah.

For your interest, I never had faith in humanity. I still don't. I have faith in a handful of humans. Humanity stinks. Some humans are terrific. Part of the reason is that— there were two big reasons I believe that. Maybe, well, three actually. One is I know history. Two is I'm a Jew, and I know that the, the human condition is Auschwitz and death camps and torture and genocide. That's a big part of the human condition, and not just for Jews, but especially. And third, I know the Bible. The Bible— I knew at the age of 5 that people are not basically good. It is one of the fundamental teachings of the Bible. Secular people are much more naive than truly religious people.

Interesting.

Wow.

And naive is bad.

It is bad.

Really bad, because then you deny what the problems of humanity— So I just want to say for the record, I have zero faith in humanity. That's why when I hear about, what is it, world opinion, What did world opinion do for the Jews in the Holocaust? What did world opinion do for the North Koreans? What did world opinion do for the Armenians? What did world opinion do for the Ukrainians? What did world opinion do for the Tutsis?

It's—

what are you— these people who even talk about it, they should be embarrassed. World opinion isn't worth spit.

Yeah, no, they don't care.

They don't care. That's exactly right. They don't— did they care about you in Colombia?

No.

They thought you were cuckoo.

Yeah. Some brainwashed person.

Because the one, the only one who knew oppression, and they're telling you they're oppressed. You must have gone— I don't know how you didn't go a little crazy. I did. Yeah, you did. Well, by the way, for the record, I went a little crazy at Colombia too.

Oh yeah?

I swear to God.

Oh my God.

I remember as if it were yesterday, one day, I was walking around Columbia and I thought, I'm totally alone. I don't think like anyone else at this whole university.

Yeah, I literally thought maybe I'm a bigot. Like, literally at the end of it.

You're a bigot.

Yeah, I was like, maybe I am.

You are. You're bigoted against stupidity, which immediately rendered Columbia problematic.

It was like, I couldn't believe why they say like the skin color matters. Like, no, it doesn't matter.

That's right.

I mean, like, from North Korea going to South Korea, they say, yeah, because your birthplace, you are being discriminated. Coming to America, I was like, it doesn't matter you're from North Korea, who cares? So now what do you want to do in the world, right? Like, who are you? But now Colombia, like, what pronoun are you? It's all about how do you identify yourself.

That's right. And it's like, I'm sorry, I forgot to open up the interview with asking your pronoun.

I blew it.

I did blow it.

Exactly. Yeah.

So I'm curious, uh, I asked you about Christianity. Are, are you at all religious today?

Yeah.

Which religion?

It's hard.

Or no religion? Just God-centered?

God. I think reading Jordan Peterson last year, it brought me to God. And reading you now, it brought me to God. I was, uh, listening to PragerU video actually about Why do you need to expose children to church? You at least give them the chance. And I was talking to my ex-husband, like, thank you for taking him to church. That I do send my son to church. It's what shocked me coming to America is that chaos and immorality. Even in North Korea, like, they tell you what is good and bad. Like, if children misbehave, if we don't bow properly or something, they say this is not good. What shocked me in America was like, everything is okay because you have freedom. And then that's why like people on the street that inject yourself with drugs because you are free, you can do it. You can kill yourself by drink drug and drink it to your death. And this is the anarchy that I see here.

Correct. America is built on the belief that you don't have to listen, that the state won't control you, but you must control you.

Your consciousness. Your virtue.

And eventually, and that you are ultimately, uh, obligated to do what God wants you to do. No God, you get anarchy in a free country.

Nah, that's what we got. I saw the anarchy walking at the New York and Chicago with the needles, and I'm like, this is not freedom. Correct. This is irresponsibility. It is like you're being such a selfish person. And I was like, I don't want my son to think that's freedom. Freedom comes with responsibility. And they don't— people—

that's right. And boy, you, you understand America better than most Americans.

How ironic is that? I had to talk about freedom for someone who did not even know what the word free was until adult.

It is also, it's also amazing that You have the ability to be happy.

How can you not be?

I'm like, that's a great answer, actually. Yeah, I, I've all— I, you know, I've written a book on happiness. I talk a lot about it. That is my view. What is your choice? Yeah, why would— it's a choice, happiness.

You make the decision.

You make it.

I'm gonna be happy. That's the thing. It's not like someone make you fear. You make the choice.

That's right.

And like they say about like if you change your mood for 90 seconds, right? Think about that's like how much control we have. Instead of make the government to make me happy.

This is a woman whose father was tortured basically to death, who was a sex slave at 13, and is telling you, you have to choose to be happy. And most people watching this have not had your background and don't choose to be happy. The left in America teaches you not to be happy. Yeah, that's the amazing thing. By the way, that's a big part of the answer to about the left. They're not happy. The unhappy hate the happy.

Yeah, they—

and, and the unhealthy hate the healthy.

Yeah.

And the anti-religious hate the religious. So it's— that's a big, a big part of it.

That is true. Like, they almost asked me, like, as something, like, if I have a problem, like, why are you not bitter? Why don't you hate men? Like, why don't you hate people? Why are you smiling? I'm like, What? It's almost in the West, there's expectation. If you go through something horrible, you gotta be complaining and bitter. That was some kind of like certain condition that you have to be.

You're so right. But it's worse than that. Even if you don't go through terrible things, you're supposed to be bitter.

Yeah.

You're supposed to be anti-male because they hold the door open.

Yeah.

Or because they said at work 'Look, you're cute.' Yeah. 'Oh my God. Oh my God.' Exactly. Well, you're proof. You're living proof of my whole theory of my life. I've always said I have contempt for humanity and I love humans. You're one of the humans of whom that is true. But you know, you say thank you, which is very sweet, and I understand why you're saying thank you, but the truth The truth is you have worked on this and you get credit for it, but you also have that nature. You have been given a gift either by God or by, by luck, and I don't know which, even though I believe in God. I, I don't know. But you were given a nature that could choose to be happy if you made that choice, given what you have gone through. You can easily be on antidepressant drugs, and everyone would understand that. Your antidepressant is your nature and your wisdom.

Thank you.

That's a fact.

What helps me is watching PragerU videos. I mean, it's not— I'm trying to be nice— that truth really liberates people. When I found the truth, it really— truth was simple. It wasn't confusing. It was all about me. It was up to me to make the decision.

That's right.

And instead of like thinking, blaming people, that what you do, that educating people, telling people the truth, it really, really matters. And I've been watching your video, like 20 of them in the same day. So thank you for everything you do to help all of us.

Well, if you're thanking me for what we do, I take it as a big deal. This was among the great hours of my life.

Oh, thank you.

And I've had a lot of great hours. We— I have a feeling we will be together again.

Yeah, let's do this on the college campuses. That's right. They'll be able to go crazy. What would they call me? I'm not even white.

What will they call you? Grateful. Oh, the best thing there is. I'm Dennis Prager. This is Youngmi Park. Thank you for watching.

Tomorrow on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager.

Uh, thank you for taking my call.

Thank you.

I have a 15-year-old son who has just started high school as a freshman, and Up until this point, when he's wanted to download rap music, which is his genre of choice, we have required that he tell us the name of the song and I do a quick Google of the lyrics. He's wanting me to not be so strict on these lyrics, and I don't know, do I lighten up in the name of letting him develop some independence and choices, or do I stick to what we're doing in the name of our family values and that sort of thing.

I must say that the older I get, the less I have felt that the great problem in American life has been parents who were too strict.

Join us tomorrow to hear more on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Visit DennisPrager.com for thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures, courses, and classic radio programs. And to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles. We want to take just a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the podcast. Go to lifeaudio.com to find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network, including shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.