Timeless Wisdom: Male/Female Hour - Jealousy

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I'm old-fashioned. I like two sexes. Yeah, and another thing, all of a sudden I don't like being married to what is known as a new woman.

I want a wife, not a competitor.

Competitor, competitor.

Talk about it a bit, this crying in the morning thing, this depression, you know, let's get that fixed.

That's what men think, isn't it?

What?

Unless you've got the answer, unless you can say, oh, I know this bloke in the Essex Road who could fix that, then there's no point bothering. How do you write women so well? I think of a man and I take away reason and accountability.

I love him, I love him, and I don't care what you think.

I love him for the man he wants to be, and I love him for the man that He almost is. What do people have rows about today?

Money, sex, sex, money. He wants, she doesn't want.

She wants, he doesn't want. Women have always been a big problem to me, Dr.

Fussbend.

Are you listening, doctor?

Yes, yes, yes.

Go on, go on.

Dr. Fussbend, my hero. Hi everybody, it's the male-female hour on the Dennis Prager Show. And I love this hour, and I know many of you do. I have 3 dedicated hours on the show, pretty much what I call come hell or high water hours. We talk about this subject. Male-Female Hour is the second hour on Wednesdays. The Ultimate Issues Hour is the third hour on Tuesday. And the Happiness Hour is the second hour on, on, on On Friday. All right, the male-female hour today is on a subject that will hit some of you unfortunately right between the eyes, and I would like to hear from you because perhaps you and I together can help people understand a, a rather complex element in the male-female relationship, and that is the big J. What's the big J? Jealousy. Now, you might expect me to say that it is not a good thing, you gotta learn to control it, you'll have a much happier life. Well, you're right about the second two, but not about the first one. Yes, you do have to learn to control it, and you will have a much happier life, but it's not a bad thing entirely. The problem with jealousy is degree, not existence. Get it? That's the key here. Listen, if there is none whatsoever, if it can never be provoked between two people, then I think, I think that there is some degree of love, or at least romantic love, missing. If it truly, if it truly means nothing. I, I, I, one is, uh, one's wife is, uh, you know, spending time with, uh, with different men and speaking about them, but, but it provokes nothing because, you know, well, I just trust my wife. Well, the issue was not trusting your wife or trusting your husband. That's a separate issue. The issue is, do you feel any jealousy? And the truth is that you ought to. The question is how much and how easily is it triggered. That's, that's the issue. I mean, there are men and there are women, and I think that this, this seems to run— and this is purely anecdotal— in my experience talking to people, it seems to run 50-50. Sometimes it is the man who is over-controlling, and who is jealous of the slightest degree of interaction between his wife and another man. And sometimes it is the woman who is overreacting and who is deeply upset by any interaction between her husband and another woman. I have not found this to be sex-based, as in gender-based. 1-800-PRAGER-776. You can start calling now because here is one of those times This is one of those times whence your examples and questions will be helpful to other people. My bottom line is that it is— there is an inevitability and a health to a certain degree of jealousy, that you will feel that feeling. You really love somebody, uh, I'm— that doesn't mean you act on it. It doesn't mean you control. I'm talking about the feeling of jealousy. Now, what you have to do though is to control it, and here there are two people involved at least in helping you control. If they're simply— if they overwhelm you or they are constant, triggered by, as I say, any interaction of your spouse with a member of the opposite sex. First, you have to help yourself. B, your spouse has to help you, and that is done by regular reassurance in a verbal and whatever other way it takes of their love for you, their exclusive love for you. I mean, a healthy person doesn't care if his or her spouse interacts with members of the opposite sex. You care if you feel that they are attracted. And I don't mean in the, in the usual way men are attracted to 72 women a day, uh, but, but in, in any, any deeper sense than that. And, uh, and that it threatens— that's the, that's the fear. I mean, what is jealousy but ultimately a fear that somebody is coming between my loved one and me, right? I mean, that's essentially what jealousy is about. If you don't have that fear, then it's meaningless. And so you have to ask yourself rationally, is there really that possibility? Is there really that potential? You know, your husband falls in love with an actress on the screen. I think that the jealousy is not called for unless he's a deep deeply unhealthy and start stalking her. It's, it's, it's a, it's a fantasy joke. You know, your wife goes, oh God, is he gorgeous? Uh, you know, big deal. I mean, it's actually good if your spouse can say to you he's gorgeous or she's gorgeous. That's actually a healthy thing. Means you're not, you're not hiding your reactions. And my deepest belief is that the more you share with your spouse, the better it is. But that, that's quite different than, than obviously, you know, somebody at work, uh, who becomes very involved, quote unquote, professionally, uh, in life of your, of your husband, let's say. Uh, now unless you know that it's— and you can know, it is possible, you know, it's a non-issue. He, you know, she, she's no threat to, to his love for you. That's the issue of jealousy, as I said earlier, is the threat that a person can pose to the exclusivity of your relationship. But having said all that, if it's absolutely absent, that's not good either. It gives an edge, a tension that is good for a relationship. It also helps, by the way, in doing something else, and that is never taking your spouse for granted. If you never ever feel any jealousy, it would seem to me that you take for granted that your spouse will always be with you and always love you, and I don't think that that's healthy. That's a subject that I've covered and will return to another time because it's not nearly often enough spoken about, the taking for granted of a spouse. That, that people engage in. That's, uh, it's as if you have tenure like a college professor, can't be fired. I think that every spouse should think that they could be fired, in fact. Alrighty, let's go to, uh, let's go to some of your calls here. 1-800-PRAGER-776. And let's go to Cleveland, Ohio, and Scott. Hello, Scott. Dennis Prager.

Hey, Dennis. Boy, it's a real pleasure talking to you. I listened to you for a long time. First time calling in. Great. I've been with my wife in one form or another for 25 years. We started dating when we were 17, and she was— tended to be quite jealous at that age, almost problematic. And, uh, over time, uh, it's, it's drifted away. And I just sort of assumed it was, uh, something like a more childhood, uh, attitude that she grew out of. Um, interested in what other people say today on the subject, but, uh, there was no real effort on my part to make it go away other than enduring it. And it, and just over time it went away.

How long did you know each other prior to marriage?

Uh, I, uh, I was, uh, in 6th grade with her. Uh, we, we really— I mean, I knew her name and that was it.

Well, well, let me ask you this. What— at what age did you, did you, uh, marry?

23.

Okay, so there were 6 years from 17 to 23. And I'll, I'll— what I think is marriage made her more secure than, than being boyfriend and girlfriend.

I suspected that as well, that like you said, that, uh, right.

All right, so let me, let me say something. This is very important. That's another benefit of marriage. I'll explain when we come back. This is the Male-Female Hour on the Dennis Prager Show.

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Hi everybody, Dennis Prager here. The Male-Female Hour. Each week, this hour of the show on Wednesdays. And talking to you today on the Male-Female Hour about jealousy. It is a good thing, but it is a bad thing when uncalled for, or when it becomes terribly controlling, obsessive, etc. In other words, if it doesn't exist, it's not good, and if it exists too much, it's not good. Like much of life, this is not, this is not exactly different from much of life, that a moderate amount of something is probably good and an excessive amount is bad. But some people might think that it's good if it doesn't exist at all, and I differ with that view. If you really love somebody and you are married to that person in particular, then a certain exclusivity is, is definitional to the marital state. That's why the last call from Cleveland was so interesting. He was with his— the woman that became his wife from 17 to 23, then married. She was very jealous. Then with marriage, she became much less jealous, as indeed she ought to be. In marriage, you, you have made a formal commitment, a formal and legal commitment to exclusivity. Therefore, jealousy should be reduced. Now it comes up though in so many different ways. A man looks at another woman, and again, there's moderation. Men look at women. That is the way we are made. It is as instinctive as smelling a nice flower or biting into a yummy food. I mean, it is so basic that Frankly, you have to be a male to realize it. Now, I'm not saying women don't see attractive men, but come on, let's be honest, both women and men look more at women. All right, that's just the way it is. And the jealousy issue— oh, he looked at another woman, or, or, uh, or he was looking at the women in, uh, Victoria's Secret catalog, and, uh, oh man, I am jealous. There's nothing— that's, that's usually an unhealthy reaction. Now, of course, the reaction may be on a far deeper issue than that, and that is that you feel very insecure about your looks vis-à-vis the models of Victoria's Secret. If this is any consolation, every woman is insecure vis-à-vis the models in Victoria's Secret catalogs or Playboy or what have you. That's another subject for another time. I can help women out a great deal on that issue. As I have said over and over and over, overwhelmingly women prefer— men prefer, at least healthy men, I can't speak for unhealthy men, but for healthy men prefer a live woman that is less than perfect to a perfect fantasy. Alright, this should be— this is extremely important for women to know this. Now at the same time, I think that a woman who takes care of her body and, and, uh, in who was married is saying in a very profound way to her husband that I love you. All right, these are very difficult issues to confront. Uh, that's exactly why somebody needs to confront them, because they are usually evaded. But, uh, don't be jealous of the fact in and of itself that he has looked at these, these fantasy pictures or these women or the catalog or what have you. All right, let's go to, uh, more on the jealousy issue. And let's see here, got a lot of good calls. Uh, you know, I will stay in Cleveland and take, uh, take, uh, Steve. Hello, Steve. Dennis Prager.

Dennis?

Hello, Steve.

Yes, yes, yes. Can you hear me okay?

I sure can.

Okay, I just had a headset on. Yeah, um, long time listener, first time caller, and good. This issue comes up quite often. People accuse people being jealous when it's really envy, and I think there needs to be a clarification about that.

Well, envy and jealousy are different. Envy is when you want what somebody else has, correct? Although, I mean, that's— and even then, technically, that's coveting. But envy is, you have, I envy you your car. But there's no, I don't know if that's exactly jealousy.

Right. But I hear people like they use it interchangeably. And where they do use it.

Yeah. That's why I'm, that's why I'm sticking just to the J word.

Right. And so it's a part of a relationship such as even the first commandment. But I, the Lord, am a jealous God. Because we belong to him, and therefore, when in a marriage relationship, we belong to each other. The husband belongs—

by the way, I thank you for— I thank you for raising that, Steve. That, that is in fact a good example of how a biblical idea has changed my life. Uh, that's— it's a, it's a really good example. Uh, if God is jealous— and I understand that these, these are anthropomorphic terms used because we are anthros, we are humans, and therefore human-like terms will be used. Nevertheless, how bad could it be if God himself is jealous? God wants an exclusive relationship, and, uh, and to which he is entitled. And so I, I think that, hey, if it's good for God, by golly, it's good for us. So that was, uh, that actually was a, a way in which I formulated my view that jealousy in and of itself is not a bad thing. but is in fact, but can be and is a good thing. But of course, there could be a hell of a lot too much. Let's go to Arcadia, California, and Susan. Hi Susan, Dennis Prager.

Hi Dennis, love you, love your show.

Thank you for both.

I have 3 points I thought I could make. One is I've been married to a personal trainer for 10 years, and pretty much most of his clientele are women, and you know, they're wearing workout Oh, you're breaking up there.

Are you on a— are you traveling?

I just pulled over, actually. I'm sorry.

Good, good. Okay, he— so he's a personal trainer. Most of his clients are women and they're dressed, and then it became garbled.

Okay, and I said there would have been plenty of opportunity for jealousy had my husband, um, not have the character that he has. And he is very, very conscientious of our intimacy in our relationship. And I hear from his clients all the time that how he glowingly speaks of his family and his wife. So that has been very helpful. But I do agree with you.

I'm sorry, go on, go on, go on.

I do agree with you that jealousy is not only titillating in a relationship, but I think it's motivating And I can speak for myself that I had gotten a little off track and taken care of myself. And the jealousy that I had motivated me to this year get in shape and lose 20 pounds. So that was a good thing. And my last point I wanted to make is, um, you did a show some months ago about men and how they, how they're wired and that they look at women. And you said go home and tell your husband thank you for his fidelity. And I did do that, and I think it was fabulous because my husband just brightened up, and like, the change in his face was amazing. And he said, wow, thank you so much for acknowledging that and seeing that. So I have to thank you, Dennis, for that.

You made my day. Uh, I'm really— I'm so— I can't tell you how happy I am. I'll explain why when we come back. 1-800-PRAGER-776, the male-female hour.

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I'd like you to play— this is Dennis Prager. Hi everybody. I'd like Sean to play. Do you have it ready from that spot? Good. I want you to hear the end of the last call from this woman in, uh, in Arcadia, California. I think she's in her 40s. Go ahead.

My last thing I wanted to make is, um, you did a show some months ago about men and how they, how they're wired and that they look at women, and you said go home and tell your husband thank you for his fidelity. And I did do that, and I think it was fabulous because my husband just brightened up, and like, the change in his face was amazing. And he said, wow, thank you so much for acknowledging that and seeing that. So I have to thank you, Dennis Prager, for that.

By the way, uh, one thing that comes to my mind immediately is that— what was, what was the lady's name? Was it Anita? What was her name? I want you to try to find that, Sean, so I'll be able to refer to her properly. I bet that she never went to graduate school. I mean that utterly sincerely, and I'll tell you why, at least in the liberal arts. And the reason is because of the distorted reality that is given over to women in particular, but to both sexes in the vast majority of cases, in the vast majority of universities. And that the longer you're exposed to these, this distorted view of life, the more pernicious its effects. This is what you would have been taught. A woman with a graduate degree would probably sneer at this notion that a woman would say to her husband, thank you, honey, for being faithful. I know the battle that you have. On an almost daily basis because of your— that's Susan, okay. Thank you again, Susan. They would sneer at this because first, you know, anything to thank a man for anything distinctive is immediately something that you don't do. But secondly, why should I thank him? He should be thanking me just as much. I have the same battles for fidelity that he does. This is the, the drivel, the utter and total. It's not even partially true. It's partially true for some women, of course. It's even fully true for some women. Unhappily married women who stay faithful and who are sought by men do have this battle. But men have this battle even when they are in love, even when things are good. And so look, look, look at how that contributed to, to her marriage. The other thing she said which was so powerful, which shows what a healthy woman she is, is that her jealousy of her husband the trainer, uh, was, uh, motivated her to get in shape. I mean, the guy works with women, you know, in leotards all day. It's a good idea. It was a very good idea. But there's a third point there that I'm talking about. The subject of today's Male-Female Hour is jealousy. And here was a great example of where, A, he did not foster it. She made that clear. And men, and men should not foster it, nor should women, obviously. But, but B, where she took that emotion, and instead of pickling it and getting angry over it, it motivated her. That's a great credit. That— there the credit goes to Susan. That was a very significant call. I don't usually review calls like that. All right, let me take some more here. Glendora, California. Bernard. Hello, Bernard. Dennis Prager.

Hello, how are you, Dennis?

Scale of 1 to 10 is 7.8.

Well then, I hope you work your way up toward 8 or 9.

And I don't seek that. 7.8 is darn good. Go ahead.

All right, well, good. Well, listen, my comment is that I think the extent that we have premarital sex in our society undermines the element of trust between a husband and wife, and in that process it contributes to jealousy.

You know, I, I have heard this my whole life. I have never for a second related to it. So stay on with me and tell me why. I, I never got it. I never got it. And I may be atypical. I fully— I'm just being open with you folks. So Bernard will explain why when we come back. 1-800-PRAGER-776. Hi everybody, Dennis Prager here. The subject is jealousy, and it is a good thing in moderation. It is a bad thing when irrational and obsessive. And destructive, et cetera. You have to know when, again, the mind, believe it or not, even here the mind has to ultimately be in control. But the absence, the complete absence of jealousy is not good either. And I'm going to return to Bernard in a moment, but I just want to remind you, based on the marriage improving advice I gave that the woman Susan earlier had spoken about. We have a compilation of 30, 30 of my best male-female hours on CD, I assume also downloadable. And you can call 800-225-8584, 800-225-8584. It's about, uh, I think it could be extraordinary help and fun and interest to, uh, to anybody, married or not. 800-225-8584, or go to DennisPrager.com. Now Bernard raises an issue here that I have heard my whole life, and, uh, I have not personally related to, and that— but it doesn't mean I may be the freak here. I'm, I'm just being open. I'm not being argumentative or even taking issue with— Bernard says that in, in this age where premarital relations are so common, that has, that has increased the amount of jealousy between husbands and wives because so many husbands and wives had sexual partners prior to the person that they married. Correct.

Yes, yes, yes.

Okay.

Even among themselves, it undermines trust if they've only had each other as partners even prior to marriage.

Because if you did it with me, then you probably did it with somebody else.

Well, no, no, it just shows that you don't have the character and self-discipline. Now, what I would argue is that if humanity is designed in the image of God Each of God's character traits and his nature is most accurately understood within the context and limits of all the others. And so if fidelity, um, is both pre- and post-marriage, uh, it is undermined the totality of character.

What does fidelity pre-marriage mean? How could— what— fidelity outside of marriage?

Faithfulness pre-marriage is like abstaining from sexual activity.

Well, that's not fidelity, that's chastity.

Chastity, but it's being faithful within a character trait.

No, no, no, you're mixing the word. That's why we have to be precise here. That's just not accurate. Fidelity is to somebody. Can't be faithful to a trait. I mean, you can, but it makes no sense. If somebody watches his money, is he faithful? Oh, he's a very faithful man. What is he faithful to? His bank account. I mean, come on. This is when religion doesn't look sophisticated. I believe deeply that we're created in God's image. I also have a different understanding of the concept. Like God, we know good and evil. That, that's how I understand. The animals are not created in God's image. They don't know good and evil. We have moral choice. Animals don't. Anyway, that's how I understand it. But putting that away, faithful is to somebody. Or you could be faithful to God, if you will. But we're talking with humans. Fidelity means faithful to a person. Okay, I think Bernard's first issue was a legit one. A lot of people feel jealousy vis-à-vis the lover or lovers that somebody had prior to marriage. My view is that if they really love you and you know that, I don't see any reason, and I do believe that reason and the mind must play the dominant role here. I'm debating on this, you know. How transparent here and what to say. I— look, my view is, and we will talk about this another— I've said this many times and I've told my kids this. I believe that people should be— should have some sexual relations prior to marriage, but not intercourse. I believe that the line should stop at intercourse. That's the ideal. All right, that's, that's, that's what I— that's what I, uh, I believe. Uh, because when there is no sexual contact, you have no idea what, uh, your chemistry is, and it may be a disaster once you're married. And I am more interested in preventing divorce than I am in preventing any sexual contact prior to marriage. That, that's— but intercourse, I, I, I hold has a, uh, a sacred status, if you will. And so that— there are many ways of knowing whether you can sexually relate without that specific act. That's my position. Having said that, I've never been of the school of you have to be a virgin. I don't— never— you know, the preoccupation with virginity strikes me as literally primitive. Others will have different views, but to be jealous of the, of the, the people who were intimate with my wife or my husband before we ever met and he chose me? I, I, I would think the opposite. I would think that you would say, look, he's had all these other women, or she's had all these other men, and she chose me. She's not married to those men, right? She married me. He's not married to those women. He married me. Now, if the guy walks around or in the middle of the night he's mumbling, you know, Erica, Erica, and your name is Jennifer, okay, that's an issue. But unless it's prompted by something as obvious as that, it's a non-issue. You know, this is to me one of those examples of gratuitous misery. There's enough to be miserable about in real life without concocting ghosts to be jealous of. All right, I'll take more of your calls when we come back. Again, the number for the 30 male-female hours is 800-225-8584. Back in a moment on Dennis Prager.

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You say goodbye and I say hello.

I say hello to Dennis Prager here. By the way, the number I gave out is just for the CDs and that are available, not, not to get on the show. 800-225-8584 is for What I mentioned earlier and any other CDs. All right, just, just you should know not to speak to me, uh, not to speak on the air. Okay. All right, let me go to more calls. Jealousy is the subject. This is, uh, clearly a very, very significant, uh, issue. And let's go to Mark in Glendora, California. Hi, Mark. Dennis Prager.

How you doing, Dennis?

Good.

Uh, my question is What's your explanation for when a woman or a man are jealous of their partner's best friend who is the same sex, and they're not threatened by sexual orientation or whether they're going to have sex with each other or they're in love with each other?

Is that because— are you the friend or are you the husband?

Um, it's not— I don't have a case. I'm not in a relationship.

Oh, oh, but you've seen this happen? Is that why you're asking?

Yeah, I've seen, uh, in some of my previous relationships where some—

Okay, all right. So here, very simply, there's not a lot of time, so let me just very quickly say this. There are times when there can be, uh, there can be some legitimacy to such jealousy if vastly great, uh, greater amounts of time are spent with the friend. Uh, if, if you're home and you're in bed with your wife and you call up your friend for a half hour in bed and you do that regularly, I could see where the wife would have a reason for jealousy. Most of the time that I have encountered this, it has not been triggered, but rather is perhaps an irrational part of a desire to own the husband or the wife. I think it's a magnificent thing if my wife has girlfriends. I love them. I love that she likes them, but yes, I could imagine that if truly I felt that time for me were in great amounts taken away, yes, I would have a jealous reaction, not of them but of the time. And I could see that in a woman. But what you do is you embrace the friend and then bring them into your joint life. Jane in Henderson, Texas, you have a few seconds. You say your husband goes one step further than just looking at women. What is that step?

Um, if he sees someone he thinks is attractive, he, instead of walking around them, he'll bump into them where they have to turn and look at him.

Oh yeah, that's all right. Yeah, I need to talk to him, Jane. I really do that. I agree. I just wanted to know what example you could give. I would love you to call in, uh, on, uh, on Friday. When people can call in on anything. I'd love to talk to you about this. This has been the Male-Female Hour. I certainly hope it's helped. This is the Dennis Prager Show. Don't go away.

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