Breaking the Cycle of Relationship Addiction with Sherry Gaba

This is not a podcast about being broken, although you may have been. This is a podcast about strength for women who find themselves in difficult relationships, including that sometimes difficult one with yourself. We'll look at your relationship through a lens of psychology, faith, and a little dash of my own kind of feminism. We're not fixing them. We're fixing you. And that changes everything. Welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. Save yourself, heal your relationships. Listen in. Sherry, I am so thrilled to have you today to be on my podcast and share your wisdom and knowledge with my audience.

Oh, thank you, Zoe. I'm excited to be here and I'm excited about what you're doing in the world.

Thank you. I have to say, I think you might only be the second therapist I could be wrong. My, my listeners will probably correct me, but I don't often have just therapists on the show. So I'm excited because we kind of speak the same language.

Well, there's so many people doing this kind of work today. You've got coaches, right? My experts. I mean, you know, but you're also a therapist. So I think you're right. We do speak the same language. And, you know, one thing I will say, whenever I hear that there's different types of experts out there, I always say to people in your audience as well, you know, be discerning. Like, whoever you're going to work with, be really discerning. Know where they come from, what's their background, um, and so forth.

Amen. Amen to that. So before we get started, I'm going to read off a little bit of your bio so that listeners know who we are talking to. Sherri Gaba is author of the bestselling book Love Smacked. You've seen her featured on VH1 Celebrity Rehab, CNN Inside Edition, Access Live, E! News, and in Cosmopolitan. Women's World, the Los Angeles Times, Thrive Global, the New York Post, Marriage.com, and Psychology Today. She's a licensed psychotherapist, as I already said. She's a life coach and founder of Wake Up Recovery. Sherrie marries her vast knowledge of the addiction recovery process with her expertise in relationship coaching and counseling. She is author of Love Smacked: How to Stop the Cycle of Relationship Addiction and Codependency to Find Everlasting Love. And so, Sherri, I wanted to have you on here today because, as you know, the topic of my podcast is women in difficult relationships, including that sometimes difficult one with yourself. So it's not always with other people, although, you know, there's the ripple effect. But before we get started today, can you please share with my audience a win and a fail?

A win is you never give up. You just never give up. And a fail Oh my. Well, I've had relationship failures that have turned into wins. How's that?

Hmm. Okay. So tell me, tell me about that. You never give up. How is that a win for you?

Well, you know, my book is, is really a lot about multiple marriages, love addiction, being in one relationship after the next. And, you know, as a therapist, you know that there are reasons that relationships don't work out. There's reasons that we pick similar partners, different faces, different names. Right. And there's reasons that we get addicted to love. And a lot of it comes back to trauma, which we can talk about a little bit later. But my book really focuses on that about— and I had been married, or I've been married multiple times. And until I figured out what the trauma was that was part of this whole cycle of love addiction, I was really like, what's wrong with me? And I did look at all these things as failures, but they really weren't failures. They were just trauma responses to early abandonment issues that I suffered with and that most love addicts do suffer with.

Right. Well, thank you for sharing how that applies to your life. Okay, so let's dive in. What is the difference between a toxic relationship and a codependent relationship, or is there?

Well, there are differences. Um, maybe I'll start with what love addiction is. Okay. So it's, it's a process addiction, and so is codependency. And what that means is it's a lifestyle addiction, or a, or a, we'd call it a soft addiction. So you're not addicted to a substance, you're addicted to a behavior. But what's interesting about it is it has the same mood-altering, um, activity going on in your brain. And I guess the same could be for a toxic relationship, although that's— let's, let's get to that in a second. Um, so—

So you said process, you said it's a process.

Or a lifestyle addiction.

Okay, so it kind of means the same thing. Okay.

Um, so basically, you're addicted to being in love, you're addicted to the romance, you don't want to be alone, being alone is the worst thing possible. You probably have an anxious attachment style, because, you know, you just fear, you know, what's going to happen if this guy leaves me, you're very obsessed with the person. If you— if there's a breakup, you have some of those same withdrawal feelings that a drug addict would have, just like a drug user might crave his drugs. And then you, you know, you overadapt to what they want, because, you know, you don't want You don't— you'll just do whatever to keep this illusion going. It's really an illusion of who you want someone to be rather than who they really are.

And you're actually becoming an illusion of who you think they want rather than who you are, right?

Yeah, I guess you try to be someone that you hope they will want to be with,

right? And then you create an illusion about who they are.

Yeah, that's a good point. I've never looked at it quite that way, but you're right, because you aren't really your authentic self, because you don't even know really who your authentic self is. based on all of this early trauma. So you're almost like in the ethers of, I'll just go with this one and that one, and this guy smells good, and this one looks good. And, you know, it's, it's— there's not a lot of using of your brain to get into these relationships. It's all about attraction and meeting that need of connection. And, and not— and everyone needs connection, but this is sort of a pathological connection.

Mm-hmm.

And so you overadapt to what they want. You have such a fear of, of letting them go, even if you know it's not right, because Knowing that it's not— the truth of knowing that it isn't good for you, um, is far, is far scarier. It's much far— it's far scarier to actually leave them. So you'd rather just live in denial and just pretend that everything is okay when it really isn't. And you have a fear of the unknown. And, you know, now we're getting a little more into codependency, but you're trying to change them. You need them to feel whole. You look to others for affirmation and worth. That's very codependent trait.

Mm-hmm.

Fear abandonment at all costs. Um, you have the withdrawal symptoms and you basically give up who you are and lose parts of yourselves to be with that person. So when you break down codependency and love addiction, you can be a love addict and you most likely have codependency. You can be a codependency and not necessarily be a love addict. You wanna control other things such as people, places, and things. And it may be at a job, it might be at your church, or it might be at your temple. It might be at your, in your neighborhood. You know, you're just, you're trying to fix, control, and manipulate. Mm-hmm. Doesn't mean it's a person necessarily for a codependent.

That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. So you mentioned, you mentioned a number of things. You mentioned anxious attachment. You mentioned the drive to please. Can you explain for a woman who might be going, oh, that's me, I do that in relationships. Can you explain a little bit about maybe how she got to this point of needing in a pathological way?

Well, we can talk about trauma. That's a big part of it. A lot of us grow up in, you know, unhealthy, dysfunctional families of origin. So we might have been abused, we might have been neglected, we might have had parents that weren't available to us. I often talk about my story, which is about being in an incubator and not getting early bonding. I'm, I'm probably much older than you, Zoe, but in my day, um, if you were preemie, they didn't do all the special things they do today. So I didn't meet my mother for almost 3 months.

Oh my goodness.

Right. So, and when I discovered, oh my God, that's why I have all of these abandonment issues, because I didn't get what I needed those first few months. So I was always, always searching, searching for attention, searching for validation, searching for love. And like they say, in all the wrong places. You know, if you, if you don't receive what you need as a child, your emotional growth is stunted. And so, like I said, if you're neglected or abused or parents that were emotionally unavailable, or, or you had to become little adults, like little parents, Identified children. This will set you up to have really difficult relationships, adult relationships, which was my issue. Yeah, you don't even know who you are. You have a very you have a false sense of reality of who you are because you don't even know who you are because nobody really mirrored that for you. You know, you're this little you didn't get that bonding. I mean, I have two grandchildren, and you know, I look at my little grandson, and he's only nine months, and I feed him, and he looks at me, and I look at him, and there's just this. Beautiful, uh, symbiosis connection. If you don't get that, you're gonna have trouble in adult relationships for sure.

I'm so glad that you mentioned other forms of neglect because a lot of, you know, women might be thinking, well, I didn't have any abuse. Nobody hit me. Nobody, you know, verbally abused me or emotionally abused me. But then, you know, you mentioned you being in the incubator. That's not No, that's not intentional. That's just some life event that happened that kept you from being able to get your needs met.

Exactly. I mean, unfortunately, my mother had been— she grew up with very unavailable parents. They were gamblers. So my mother had her own issues of being present, being in the moment. She did the very best she could. Luckily, I had a wonderful dad. But, you know, because of having sort of an unavailable mom in some ways, And then to have that early rupture as an infant, it really did set me up. But you're right, all kinds of childhood trauma. It can be covert, overt. It could be passive-aggressive. It could be innocuous. It could be invisible. Listen, if your feelings aren't heard and you feel invisible and you can't possibly form a sense of self, your true self can't emerge when you don't feel safe. So we're always trying to move towards relationships that make us feel safe and secure. So let's say your parents were alcoholics or they abandoned you or they were emotionally or physically unavailable. You're not going to be able to trust others. And so you're constantly going to live in this state of fight or flight. And also, you know, remember, we want— we always get in relationships, not always, but what we're comfortable with. So like, oh, I was abused. I'll find someone that abuses me. I was with someone that neglected me, or I was with somebody that was an alcoholic. I mean, my parents were alcoholics or abusive. Then you— that's what's comfortable. It's like the default. So I always say, you know, if you—

But it's also, it's also not conscious. And so, you know, I often say to my clients, we confuse familiarity with attraction because it's not like you go, oh, I had an alcoholic father, I'm gonna go find one. Nope. It's— it would be nice if it were that simple, but it's so much more subtle than that.

It's very unconscious.

Yes. Yes. And so you—

Never to beat yourself up over that because It's comforting. It's comfortable too. It's like you feel like you're home, but you're really not. Right. Exactly. Nobody can, you know, give you what you didn't get as a child. And that, and that's generally what you're trying to do. You're trying to find someone who unconsciously, you know, replicates that parent that wasn't there for you. And then you're gonna try to make that person be who you want them to be. And that's not really built on adult mature relationships. I mean, that's, that's something that is, um, that's a wound. You're trying to heal a wound.

Mm-hmm.

And a relationship cannot heal that wound. Um, but again, you can— if you meet someone and you find someone who makes you feel safe and secure, that's certainly a great step towards healing the wound, but they can't fix you or, or make you whole.

We have to fix ourselves, ladies, right?

And that's, that's what love addicts don't want to hear, and that's what I didn't want to hear. I just wanted to be in one relationship after the next. I was just too afraid to be by myself, to be on my own.

You're right, it's really hard to hear it. It's necessary. And I, I talk— I've talked before about a therapist that I was working with, and, and I don't remember exactly what the words were now, but essentially he was like, okay, that's your problem that you have to fix. And I remember being angry, but I also remember taking that and going, oh, okay, this is mine. Yes.

I mean, people don't want to feel the pain. I mean, that's why we have addictions. People want to self-medicate the pain. For me, it was the pain of aloneness, the pain of emptiness, the pain of not belonging, the pain, the pain. I just didn't want to feel it. And so anybody that's listening, you know, I guarantee you, if you aren't willing to go through the pain and walk through it, you're never going to get to the other side. You're just going to keep settling for less.

Right. But you can do it even though it's scary. You can do

it.

So for a woman who, like I said, is going like, oh, okay, this is me, or I think this is me, or I noticed this, what are the signs that maybe now fast forward She's currently in a toxic relationship.

Okay, so basically, you know you're in a toxic relationship if you're ruminating and obsessing all the time. You're constantly—

About them?

Them, yeah.

Or the relationship? Okay.

That's a real toxic sign. Um, and then, you know, another sign is changing your life habits and needs and wants to be with them, kind of turning yourself into a pretzel just to be with them. Um, and you want to spend every minute with them, and you kind of let go of all your other relationships and hobbies. Also, toxic relationship, you're usually walking on eggshells. There's usually a lot of fights. You don't really get along very well. You kind of question yourself, should I say this or should I ask for that? What will happen if I tell them this or that? And so constantly second-guessing yourself. You feel guilty for everything. Now, toxic people like narcissists, for example, always have to be right. And so they're always going to make you wrong. And so you're going to feel guilty. And the reason you're going to feel guilty Again, it goes back to if you don't know yourself and you don't know your truth, then they can probably do anything to manipulate you. So there's often these feelings of, I must be wrong and they're right, and they may— and they try to make you feel that way. A lot of fighting. There could be physical abuse, abuse, a lot of manipulating, a lot of controlling behaviors. Mm-hmm. Telling you, you know, where to go, what to dress, you know, how to dress, who your friends can be. A lot of yelling, insulting, criticizing, uh, dishonesty, betrayal, cheating, and then a lack of self-care. You stop taking care of yourself. You stop, you know, taking care of your appearance or your physical health. So these are all just little subtle signs of, of being in a toxic situation.

Remember, of course, we always bring ourselves to these relationships. So we are part of this dynamic. Do you feel that in some situations, The relationship can be improved if a woman changes some of her behavior or thoughts or lens?

I think, um, you have to really take a look at, is this really what I want to— is this really what I want? You can choose to stay.

Sure.

What am I trying to say? I don't necessarily, um, agree. Recommend. Recommend. Thank you. I don't necessarily recommend that. Um, there are therapists out there that do work with narcissists and there can be some movement. It's very slow and You know, if you're just dating someone or it's a new relationship, you might want to really consider, do I really want to do this work with this person? Maybe I need to find somebody that's healthier. And then I have to figure out what is the toxic relationship I have with myself that I've— that I'm in this relationship. But it's a very personal decision. But I think if it is a full-blown narcissist, you know, that person's going to really need, uh, help for sure.

Okay. So you've been using this word narcissist. Um, can you explain to somebody what that is? Because it's thrown around so much. So is gaslighting. I hear it in the teenagers like, oh, you're gaslighting me, and they have no clue what it actually means. People will say, oh, he was a narcissist. We just throw that around. So for someone who's wondering, is my partner a narcissist? Was my dad a narcissist?

You're right. For a full-blown diagnosis, um, you know, you have to be someone that's— that definitely lacks empathy. You really can't see the other point of view. Um, there's so much to it. There's covert narcissism, overt narcissism. Um, yeah, and I don't want to throw the word around. There's some people that just have traits, you know, but if they really lack that empathy and they really can't see another person's point of view, they may be a full-blown narcissist. Narcissistic traits can be anything from love bombing you in the beginning of a relationship where they give you all this attention and adoration, and they're, they're basically, you know, um, bombarding you with lavish gifts, and they're, they're Complimenting you all the time and they tell you, I love everything about you. I've never met anyone like you. You're so perfect. You're the person I want to be with the rest of my life. This might be a sign that this person is a narcissist's highest traits because they're love bombing you. They're trying to— they're basically trying to suck you in. I mean, a healthy beginning dating stage can have those butterflies. It could be a lot of excitement, but there usually isn't this intensity of what a narcissist will do.

Right.

They want your— this is another thing. You really know you're with a true narcissist if you try to set a boundary and they just will not have it. That is the, you know, that is something you really want to be aware of. And they want your undivided attention. They start isolating you. You know, these are not good signs.

What does the empathy part look like? So for someone who doesn't really understand that, when we say they don't, they can't empathize with you.

They don't know anybody's point of view but their own. Their brain is wired—

It's hard for them to—

Not hard, it's impossible for them to see another point of view. They literally have— they don't have the capacity, but they can act like they see.

Exactly.

They can pretend because they put on a really good false mask.

Yes, and I think that's the difficulty because when we say they have no capability at all, someone, especially a codependent, could go, oh, but wait, I remember when I was crying that day and he came to me and he asked me how I was feeling, and I, I'm glad that you made that point that they are able to act like it because they can follow social norms and they can know, oh, I'm supposed to ask this question.

Yeah.

When this person is doing this, because I've seen them.

They're manipulators.

Correct.

They know how to play the game. You know, they do. They really do. Um, they also want commitment really fast. So that's something you wanna really watch out for. But the, like I said before, they get very upset when you try to place a boundary and that's the one you really wanna watch out for.

Is the boundary. Okay, so for a woman who's— a woman who's struggling and she recognizes, I'm in a relationship that's toxic, I'm probably a love addict, um, and maybe codependent too, what now?

Well, first of all, I just want to say anybody that's on this podcast now is obviously, um, getting educated and becoming aware of, of what's, you know, could this be me? And I think it's fantastic that you're educating yourself and You know, maybe you're on YouTube, or maybe you're on, you know, like you could be on Instagram. You're learning, you're becoming aware. So, so yay for that. Just start looking at every relationship that enters your life as an opportunity to heal and grow and become more self-aware, not to beat yourself up. You know, your focus really has to shift from the outside in, and every relationship is manifested into our lives to mirror the relationship we have with ourselves. So like I said earlier, if you're attracting toxic relationships or continue nurturing your addiction to them, it's because really first and foremost, you have a toxic relationship with yourself. So, amen. Go, what's going on here? What are, what is that about? And, um, again, no shame, no blame, just an understanding and an awareness, you know, accept and welcome the process. It's a constant work in progress of uncovering and resolving toxic childhood experiences and conditioning. If you, if you realize you have a really, you do have a history of trauma, you want to find a therapist like myself, perhaps Zoe as well, that understands trauma and works and does trauma therapy. I do somatic work, I do tapping, I do polyvagal theory. There's all kinds of types of trauma therapy, but make sure you're working with someone that really can help you with that early trauma. And start building that connection with your healthy self, the highest version of yourself. the emotional self, your spiritual self. Um, you know, these are all a great way to begin healing. Pick up my book. Um, you can join a support group. Uh, my support group I think is gonna be in the show notes. It's called Wake Up Recovery and it's a group coaching program that's a— I'm actually giving your, um, listeners, it's a dollar to join. It's a trial.

Oh, thank you.

Yep. And then it goes to $27 a month and they get live group coaching once a month. And there's a whole program in there about narcissistic abuse and love addiction. codependency. And then there's all kinds of expert interviews. It's really a treasure trove of great resources. But again, if you really need individual help, always reach out to a therapist. And then I'm also offering, um, a free ebook and a quiz to see if you are in a toxic relationship or you are obsessed with— you're in an obsessive love relationship.

So we'll put that link in the show notes.

Yeah, definitely take the quiz.

So you talk about, um, you know, I have clients who are in the process of breaking up and they're looking forward— they're in that fear place too of I'm gonna lose him and so it seems like there's nobody, right? It's that whole thing where they fear that nothing's going to come after him. Can you tell me a little bit about the withdrawal that you talk about from a toxic relationship? What is that?

Withdrawal is almost like a heroin addict needing its fix. So you're going to start to feel very empty, very alone. You're going to have— might have some physical signs, heart palpitations. You know, you're kind of jonesing for another relationship. And so this is the time to go, okay, I'm going to really start connecting inward. I know I want to connect outward. I know I want to fill this void with something outside of myself. But you know what? I'm going to spend some time and really understand what is really going on here. Why How can I, how can I self-soothe myself?

Maybe

this is a good time to understand, um, you know, how to really connect with me. You know, the bottom line is if we don't connect with ourselves, we can't connect with someone else. I remember, you know, all the different relationships that I was in. I would blame them. Oh, they were, you know, they were this or they were that. Truth was, I picked them, and I picked them because I didn't have a relationship with me.

So I would be on— yeah,

you know. Yeah. So, um, this is such a beautiful time during this withdrawal phase is just to go inward and then deep.

Great. So yes, this is the time to focus on your relationship with yourself and doing some of those steps that we talk about— journaling, being able to sit with yourself, take yourself on a date.

Oh, and then there's a lot of different things that I work with on a physical level with my clients where I teach them different, um, techniques to help self-soothe, because there are ways to self-soothe. You know, when someone says, well, just focus on you, it's like, well, that makes me anxious. So of course it makes you anxious. So there's different, um, different, all different types of tools that are out there to help you learn how to self-soothe.

Can you share a physical tool with us?

You know, this one could be, you know, you take your finger and you put it between your breast, on your breastbone, between your breasts, and you just kind of slightly press. And that'll really help with anxiety.

Hmm.

And then another one is you have like a little fatty tissue between your thumb and your finger. Grab that little fatty tissue and you press on it, and it can just give you some relief from that anxiety.

Hmm.

Uh, tapping is— that's a really great, uh, you can go on YouTube and find all kinds of tapping. There's an app called The Tapping Solution. I do tapping with my clients, but what tapping does is it moves energy. So if you're having an obsession over somebody, it's such a great, great tool. It's like almost like a tranquilizer of— without taking a tranquilizer, it's going to definitely calm you down. It's going to move the energy that's stuck in your body.

Yes, self-soothing is really important, especially when you have a love addiction, because you generally are seeking outward to get somebody else to give you that type of physical soothing. And so

You're literally detoxing, you know, right? Someone who goes to rehab and is getting off drugs, you are literally detoxing the same, the same thing as a drug addict. Just so you know. And also, if you've been in a toxic relationship, there are peptides that you create in your brain and you're looking for that drama. You're looking for that drama. You're looking for that trauma response, right?

Yeah.

You're like addicted to that trauma response. So this is all really normal, but there are ways to get through that. withdrawal phase.

And I love that you said that about focusing on yourself and how that makes people feel. Although my experience is that if focusing on yourself, if spending quiet time with yourself creates a feeling of fear, terror, or just disgust, or just, I don't want to do that, it's probably because you need to do it more.

Oh, that's it. That's what we get back to. You have to walk through the pain. It's painful. It is painful with ourselves. Why? Because we never were with ourselves. Nobody, nobody was with us in that bonding kind of way. So we never learned to just be with us.

I

mean, it's, it's, um, very fascinating.

And so in addition to self-soothing, in addition to spending time with ourselves, quiet time, taking ourselves out, we also have to explore. We need to start asking ourselves difficult questions, wanting to know more about ourselves instead of always seeking for other people to know us better. We need to work on, on knowing ourselves better.

And have, you know, have stuff in your ears all the time. That's why I love my membership, because not that it's a therapy program, it is group coaching, but in between therapy you have all these great resources. You have a private group of people that have been through what you've been through, and so you relate to each other, or you listen to the different audio lessons or video lessons. You're always putting this information in your brain that's changing the neural pathways.

I

mean, when I left the alcoholic, I, I just absorbed everything I could to break away from that relationship because it was so painful. And it helped. It helped. I joined meetings, I joined programs, I thought— I sought therapy. Um, I did it all just, you know, to get past that pain.

Thank you so much for sharing, Sherri. What would be a last thing you would like to leave a woman in who's listening, who's sitting here now and, and is feeling maybe scared, frustrated, angry at herself even?

It's about no shame and no blame and no guilt and having an understanding. How did you get here? And how can I change my patterns in relationships, either the one I'm in or future relationships? And what can I do different? You know that old saying, um, keep doing the same thing over and over again, we're going to get the same results. So What can I do differently? How can I seek, you know, help? How can I understand myself more deeply? And having faith that it's going to get better if you're willing to, you know, to dive deeper and dive deeper.

Beautiful. Yes, there is hope. There's always hope. Yeah. Thank you so much, Sherry. Thank you for listening to Stronger in the Difficult Places. If you recognize yourself in And any of the things we've been talking about today, reach out to Sherry, reach out to me. And don't forget to subscribe to my email list so that you can get some encouragement from me. Episodes generally go out on Tuesdays. Have a super week.