Do You Have Post Betrayal Syndrome? Learn to Trust Again with Dr. Debi Silber

Hi, Dr. Zoe here. Welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. My guest today is Debbie Silber. We're talking about post-betrayal syndrome. She did a wonderful TED Talk about it, and I wanted to have her on today for the episode. She is CEO and founder of the Post-Betrayal Transformation Institute. She's a holistic psychologist, a health mindset and personal development expert, and And author of the number one bestselling book, The Unshakeable Woman: 4 Steps to Rebuilding Your Body, Mind, and Life After a Crisis and Trust Again. You know, this concept of post-betrayal syndrome is very interesting, and I really want to get to the bottom of it and understand what the symptoms of it are and how we can move through it. So welcome and listen in. And once again, I share my wins and my fails on the podcast version of these episodes. So if you want to hear that, you can go head on over to anywhere you can hear podcasts, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, all the places. Otherwise, listen in. Dr. Debbie, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much. Looking forward to our conversation.

I'm excited about it. I saw your TED Talk about post-betrayal syndrome, and I just thought, okay, I gotta have her on, gotta have her on. Um, before we get into all of it, can you please share with my Listeners, uh, a win and a fail.

Sure. I mean, a win is doing something really good with something really painful. And, um, and which is, you know, what those— the study and the 3 discoveries. And I'm happy to go into that so much more. Uh, and then the fail, the fail is, um, it's just staying stuck. It doesn't feel good. And I was in that stuck place, which so many people after betrayal are. Um, and it actually landed me in the hospital. So That got me unstuck quickly.

Wow. That was a big rock bottom. Is that something that happened recently or you're talking about historically?

The, yeah, the, the, the betrayal experience. I mean, I'm happy to share it. So, uh, it's actually my 30th year in business and as life would change, so would business. So it was health and then mindset and then personal development. And then I had a really painful betrayal from my family. Thought I did everything I needed to do to heal from that. And then it happened again a few years later. This time it was my husband. So that was the deal breaker. Got him out of the house, and anybody who's been through that, you know, you're you're shocked, you're blindsided, you're devastated. Life as you've known it is no longer, and I was the same. And I I looked at the two experiences thinking, okay, well, what's similar to these two? Of course me, but what else? And boundaries were always getting crossed. I never took my needs seriously, and I'm really one of those believers that if nothing changes, nothing changes. So here I was, four kids, six dogs, a thriving business, and I was like, that's it, going back for a PhD. And it was in. transpersonal psychology, the psychology of transformation and human potential. I was changing so much. I didn't quite understand what was happening. He was too, on his own, wasn't ready to look at that. And then it was time to do a study. So I studied betrayal, what holds us back, what helps us heal, and what happens to us physically, mentally, and emotionally when the people closest to us lie, cheat, and deceive. And that study led to 3 groundbreaking discoveries, which changed my health, my family, my work, my life.

Wow, what a beautiful nutshell there. So you— we already started diving in. So you— thank you for sharing that. Um, so you had a betrayal, infidelity in your relationship, and you separated. And then at what point did you come back together?

You know, it's interesting because I learned and I see within, you know, all of our members within the PBT Institute, When there's the complete and utter death and destruction of the old, it allows for the rebirth of the new.

Right.

And that was our deal breaker. So that was it. And I'm like, well, I wasn't counting on being a single mom to all these kids and dogs and running this business. And, but here I go. That was, that was it. So my entire intention was just to heal. And, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll show you something. Will, will everybody see this if I'm doing this now with my hands?

People on YouTube, but most of my listeners are actually on, um, A podcast player. So, so

I'll explain it. Yes. So my hands are like facing each other, hitting each other. And that's what happens when we're in betrayal. We're in so much pain. We're so devastated. And then we're, we just wanna get that pain over with. So we typically just get back together, do whatever we can to get over it or find someone new very quickly.

Mm-hmm.

And that's the reason, one of the reasons why we experience repeat betrayals so often. So When you are willing, this is the greatest opportunity to grow, to heal physically, mentally, emotionally. When you do now, I keep what I'm keeping one hand here and the other one is rising. When you do, what happens is you're healing. But if you're so committed to that other person, I'm shaking my hand here, the one at the bottom. You will actually keep sabotaging yourself so that you don't outgrow that person. So the idea is. You just do the work to get you here. My one hand is up, one hand is down. Now the other person, you may just completely outgrow them. Or that person may say on their own, I better step up my game. This was the biggest wake-up call of my life.

Mm-hmm.

Let me do the work. Then you can meet back up again up here with a completely different relationship. Mm-hmm. But that's what I did with my husband. So, you know, rebuilding is always a choice, whether you rebuild yourself and move on. That's what I did with my family. It wasn't an option to rebuild with them. Mm-hmm. Or, Or if the situation lends itself, if you're willing, if you want to, you rebuild something completely brand spanking new with the person who hurt you. And that's what I did with my husband. So not long ago, as 2 completely transformed people, we married each other again. New rings, new vows, new dress, and our 4 kids as our bridal party.

That's beautiful.

Betrayal will show you who someone truly is. It also has the potential to wake them up. to who they potentially— who they temporarily became.

That makes a lot of sense. So we're going to get to that later on the rebuilding and the things that you can do. But I want to just start with someone who's out there and, you know, maybe has had a betrayal. Maybe they're not even sure if it really counts as a betrayal. Was it big enough? Can you give us a definition of what is maybe a betrayal, which we kind of all know, but how do you know if you're experiencing post-betrayal syndrome?

Sure. So I define betrayal as the breaking of a spoken or unspoken rule, and every relationship has them.

Mm-hmm.

And the way it works is the more you depend and you trust that person, the deeper the betrayal. So imagine a child who's completely dependent on their parent and the parent does something awful. That's gonna have a different impact than let's say your best friend sharing your secret. Mm-hmm. Still betrayals, different level of cleanup. It's still that without our awareness or consent. Someone chose to break those spoken or unspoken rules. And that's why it hurts, you know, and, and this is the person, these are the people we trusted the most. These are the people, or this was the person who gave us a sense of safety and security. So when that's the very person to shatter that sense of safety and security, it's traumatizing.

Yes. And what an excellent point that the deeper the relationship, the deeper the connection, maybe even the deeper the dependence. The, the more traumatic the betrayal is. I think that's an excellent point because so many people will feel like, well, you know, that happened to them and they were fine, or this other person did it to me and it was fine. Why am I having this huge reaction?

Yeah.

You know, I recently heard on the Marriage Helper podcast, uh, another psychologist, I don't remember his name, but he works specifically with couples a lot with infidelity. And he said that 100% Of the relationship issues that he sees, and really the ones that he feels exist essentially are all about betrayal. There's like little b betrayal, like you said you'd take the trash out and you didn't, right? And of course, there's the big B betrayals. But it's interesting because when he said that, I had to really noodle on that. I was thinking, wow, 100% of relationship issues are about betrayal. And I couldn't, I couldn't disagree.

Well, because the, each relationship has that set of spoken or unspoken rules.

Mm-hmm.

And, and that's what sort of governs the relationship and prevents chaos.

Right.

You know, so it's when someone decides just to break those rules, it's completely, um, it shatters our sense of safety, security, trust, and so much more.

Hmm. And you said unspoken and spoken. I wanna get back to that later. Mm-hmm. But can you, can you give my listener an understanding of what post-betrayal syndrome is? So we all get betrayed to a certain extent. Yeah. Starting from infancy, you know, to adulthood, what is post-betrayal syndrome?

Yeah, that was the second discovery. Uh, and all 3 of them were so exciting. So just, I just wanna make sure I get to the first one and the— sure, sure. The third. So the first one was, you know, betrayal. If, if you've experienced other types of traumas, you'll notice that betrayal feels different. And that's because it is originally, I was studying betrayal and post-traumatic growth. You know, an easy way of, of saying like, what's post-traumatic growth? I kind of look at it like, well, the upside of trauma, how that trauma, death of a loved one, disease, natural disaster, whatever, leaves you with a new awareness, insight, perspective that you didn't have. But I had been through death of a loved one. I've been through disease. And I was like, betrayal feels different. I didn't wanna assume it was the same for everyone. So I asked all my study participants, if you've been through other traumas, does betrayal feel different for you? Unanimously. Yes. So much. It's so different. And here's why. Because it feels so intentional, we take it so personally, so that the entire self is shattered. Rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust—they all—they all are shattered. So it didn't quite qualify as post-traumatic growth. It's like, yeah, you need to rebuild your life, but you also need to rebuild yourself. So I coined a new term: post-betrayal transformation, and that's the complete and total rebuild of your life and yourself after an experience. Experience with betrayal. So that was the first discovery in a very long-winded way. Now I'm going to get to the second one. So the second discovery was that there's actually a collection of symptoms—physical, mental, and emotional—so common to betrayal it's known as post-betrayal syndrome. And we've had probably 80,000 people take our post-betrayal syndrome quiz on our site to see to what extent they're struggling. Men, women, just about every country is represented. A couple of things with that quiz. The first thing is we've all been taught time heals all wounds. I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's not true. Uh, there's a question on the quiz that says, is there anything else you'd like to share? And people write things like, my betrayal happened 35 years ago. I'm unwilling to trust. My betrayal happened 15 years ago. Feels like it happened yesterday. So we know betrayal needs a very specific protocol to move through. You cannot count on time. You cannot count on a new relationship to heal it.

So many people count on a new relationship and that's advice people will give is just get into a new relationship. You can start healing with that, right?

No, no, you can't. No, you can't. It'll follow you around like a shadow. And I could even show you how to spot an unhealed betrayal. But every so often I pull the stats from the quiz just to see where people are. Would that be helpful if I shared some?

Absolutely. Yes.

Right. 'Cause it would be really weird and awkward if you said no. Okay. All right. So, 78% constantly revisit their experience. This is out of 70,000, 80,000 people. 81% feel a loss of personal power. 80% are hypervigilant. 94% deal with painful triggers. Uh, the most common physical symptoms: 71% have low energy, 68% have sleep issues, 63% have extreme fatigue. Your adrenals have tanked.

Mm-hmm.

47% have weight changes. In the beginning, maybe you can't hold food down. Right. Later on, you're using food for comfort. Mm-hmm. 45% have a digestive issue. That could be anything. Crohn's, IBS, diverticulitis, constipation, diarrhea, doesn't matter. The most common mental symptoms. 78% are overwhelmed. 70% are walking around in a state of disbelief. 68% are unable to focus. 64% are in shock. 62% can't concentrate. So now imagine you can't concentrate, you have a gut issue, You're exhausted. You still have to work.

Right.

You still have to raise your kids. That's not even emotionally. Emotionally, 88% experience extreme sadness. 83% are very angry and real common to bounce back and forth between those two. 82% feel hurt. 80% have anxiety. 79% are stressed. Just a few more. Here's why I wrote the book Trust Again. 84% have an inability To trust. That one just got me. 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being hurt again. 82% find it hard to move forward. 90% want to move forward, but they don't know how.

Thank you, because the last thing I was going to ask you is, what does that look like relationally? And you just told me. It's a complete breakdown of your ability to have healthy relationships with yourself and with other people.

Okay, exactly. You just nailed that. Now, here's the thing that, as if those statistics weren't staggering enough, first of all, you didn't hear me say one thing, 20%, 30%. These numbers are high,

right?

Here's what's even more upsetting. Those numbers aren't necessarily from something that happened recently. They could be from something that happened decades ago. So imagine 40, 50 plus whatever years ago, your parent did something awful. That girlfriend or boyfriend in high school hurt you, whatever it was, they may not even know, care, or even remember. And here we are walking around decades later with anxiety and hypervigilance and gut issues because of something like that. That's the crime right there.

It is. And also because people who experience early betrayals are also more likely to experience Later betrayals, and so then you just have this compound effect that is so devastating, and it becomes a confirmation to yourself. Right? See, I knew the world wasn't safe. I knew I shouldn't have trusted, and it just kind of hardens and builds that up.

Wow! So right, and that's it. It's we move into these relationships not because they're good; they feel so familiar. We're like, okay,

I know how to do

this

on a subconscious level. Yes, and you're not seeing it. You're thinking it's something different on the outside. Okay, so I'm imagining. I'm imagining the woman out there who's listening and going, oh my gosh, this is me.

Mm-hmm.

What do I do? I see this in my life. Now what?

Yeah. You move through the 5 stages from betrayal to breakthrough. And that was the 3rd discovery. And that by far for me was the most exciting. And what we learned was while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime, if we're going to fully heal, and by fully heal, I mean those symptoms I just shared of post-betrayal syndrome to that whole healed, rebuilt place of post-betrayal transformation. We're gonna go through 5 now proven predictable stages. What's even more exciting about that is we know what happens physically, mentally, and emotionally at every one of those stages. And we know what it takes to move from one stage to the next. Healing is entirely predictable. I'm happy to go through the 5 stages if you wanna know.

Yes. Yes. I'm not gonna say no to that.

Right. So they're totally mapped out in Trust Again. It's what we teach within the PBT Institute. Our coaches are all certified in the 5 stages, but here's a sort of a distilled version. So stage 1 is before it happens. And it's like a setup stage. And if you can imagine 4 legs of a table, the 4 legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual, what I saw with everyone, me too, was a real heavy lean on the physical and the mental thinking and doing, and kind of neglecting the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being.

Yes.

So think about it. You know, if a table only has 2 legs, easy for that table to topple over. Well, that's us. Stage 2, shock, trauma, D-Day, discovery day, the scariest of all of the stages. And this is the breakdown of the body, the mind, and the worldview.

Mm-hmm.

So right here, this is when you get the news right here. You've ignited the stress response. You are headed for every single stress-related symptom, illness, condition, disease.

Mm-hmm.

Your mind is in a complete and total state of chaos and overwhelm. You cannot wrap your mind around the information you just learned. This makes no sense. And your worldview has just been shattered. Your worldview is your mental model, the rules that govern us, that prevent chaos. Don't go there. Trust this person. This is how life works. And in one earth-shattering moment or series of moments, everything you've known to be real and true is no longer. The bottom has bottomed out on you and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet.

Mm-hmm.

So this is terrifying, but think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, What would you do? You grab hold of anything you could to stay safe and stay alive. And that's Stage 3. Survival instincts emerge. It's the most practical out of all of the stages. If you can't help me, get out of my way. How do I survive this experience? Where do I go? Who can I trust? How do I feed my kids? Here's the trap though. Stage 3, by far, hands down, is the one that most people get stuck in.

Right.

And here's why. Once you've figured out how to survive your experience, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma of where you just came from, we're like, whew, okay. And we think it's good. And because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we don't know there's a stage 4 or stage 5. Transformation doesn't even begin until stage 4. But because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we start planting roots here. We're not supposed to, but we don't know that. And 4 things happen. The first thing is we start getting all those small self-benefits.

Mm-hmm.

You get right, you get your story. I'm sure half your patients, right? You get someone to blame. You get, you know, you get sympathy from everyone you tell your story to. Like you get a lot of stuff from that. So,

um, what I find is that they settle into old defense mechanisms, right? Mm-hmm. From maybe early betrayals. And it does feel comfortable and it feels better. But like you said, it's still not healthy.

Not at all. And because they don't, you know, they don't know what they're doing. So then they, they plant some deeper roots for themselves. The longer they're there now, the worse it gets, because then the mind starts kicking in like, well, maybe you're not all that great. Maybe you deserve it. Maybe this, maybe that. So they plant deeper roots again. They're not supposed to be here, but they don't know now because these are the thoughts you're thinking. Well, like energy attracts like energy. This is the energy you're putting out.

So

all of a sudden you're attracting situations and circumstances and relationships towards you to confirm, yep, this is as good as it's gonna get. This is it. So, you know, so you plant deeper roots, it gets worse, but I'll get you outta

here

because it feels so bad, but you don't know there's anywhere else to go right here. You resign yourself. You're like, this stinks, but I have to get through my day.

Yeah.

You know, I have to figure this out somehow. So right here, we start using food. Drugs, alcohol, work, TV, keeping busy, whatever it is. Now think about what happens. We do this for— because we're just trying to get through our day at this point. We do this for a day, a week, a month. Now it's a habit. A year, 10 years, 20 years. I can see someone 20 years out and say, that emotional eating you're doing, or that drinking, that numbing in front of the TV, do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? And they would look at me like I'm crazy. And they would say, it happened 20 years ago. All they did was put themselves at stage 3 and stay there. Does that make sense?

Absolutely. Completely.

Yeah. And, and, um, and that's why From Hardened to Healed, my most recent book, is just for stage 3. I'm like, you bothered to go through your trauma, you owe it to yourself to move through the stages and get to the place of transformation. Anyway, if you are willing— willingness is a real big word here— willing to let go Of the small self-benefits and everything you get from them.

Mm-hmm.

Move to stage 4. Stage 4 is finding and adjusting to a new normal. So here's where you acknowledge, I can't undo my experience, but I control what I do with it right there in that decision. You're starting to turn down the stress response. You're not healing just yet, but at least you've stopped the massive damage you've been creating in stage 2 and stage Stage 3. Stage 4 feels like if you've ever moved, if you've ever moved to a new house, office, condo, apartment, whatever, all your stuff's not there. It's not quite cozy yet, but it's gonna be okay. That's the feeling.

Mm-hmm.

And, and, but it's interesting because think about it. If you were to move, you don't take everything with you.

Right.

You don't take the things that don't represent this version of you. You wanna be in your new space. And what I found was if your friends weren't there for you, Right in this space right there. Here's where you don't take them with you. And people say to me all the time, what the heck? I've had these friends 10, 20, 30 years. Is it me? Yes, it is. You're undergoing a transformation. And if they don't rise, they don't come. Very common. So if you find you're outgrowing friendships right here, that's what's happening. Very common in this stage.

That you're moving from 3 to 4.

Yes. You're undergoing transformation.

People have to know. Though, that it's time to move? I hope that this, this episode is a wake-up call that it's time to move. But aside from having heard this episode, how do people know that they're even in that space? Because it just feels familiar, like I'm doing life, I'm okay-ish.

It's not— what used to work doesn't work anymore. What used to feel good doesn't feel good anymore. What used to make sense doesn't make sense anymore. You know, when you mentioned my second TEDx, the first one was Stop Sabotaging Yourself, and it's on this very topic. And that's what happens. We get to this place where it's like, you know, think about it. Think about like a child who has a favorite, you know, red t-shirt, and then they grow. It's not that the t-shirt is bad. It doesn't fit anymore. You know, we're ready for something different. But here's the thing, and I'm just going to caution everybody: the people around you are not going to like it. They liked knowing where you stood. They liked. You know, getting away with what they were getting away with. You're the one redefining the rules right now. And, and in doing so, some people just may not be a fit or maybe a fit at a very different level. And that's what— and I want to make sure I get to stage 5, but you, you know, you want to look at it like betrayal shatters everything. So it's almost like, you know, if, if you picture a Lego structure, you know, those of you who have little kids or had little kids, Legos, right? And, and there you go. So here's like this Lego structure. Doesn't— it's not— it may not be beautiful. It's just built. Right.

Right.

And then imagine it's just destroyed. Well, the beauty of rebuilding after betrayal, and I know people are like, beauty, this woman's crazy, but it's really true. The beauty is you don't have to use every piece and you certainly don't have to put it back together the same way.

I love that.

You get to rebuild whatever you want. And some of those friends, may not be part of that new Lego structure anymore,

right?

We're at a very different level. So really common to see.

You know, I love earlier when you were explaining what I call is like the equilibrium in relationships, right? And you were using your hands. And when you get up here and someone else is down here, you talked about them kind of needing to come up here. But what you just also described is the reality that sometimes they're trying to pull you back down.

Oh, yeah.

Right? Yeah. And that is a very normal response when you have upleveled, when you have grown and changed, is it's like, wait, that's not, that's not who you are. That's not the agreement that we had. I want you back down here. And so there will often be a pushback. And your job is to remain steady, right, to remain strong, even though there's an overreaction to bring you down. And eventually, it will work itself out whether they come up here or whether you realize You need to exit the system.

Exactly. And that's where— that's also why the right support is crucial.

Yes.

So important because here's where, you know, you're sort of growing your sea legs and this is tough stuff. And if, you know, like when we're not in that place where we're feeling really strong, it is so much easier to go back to the known, back to the familiar, even if it stinks. So here's where you need a tremendous amount of support. You know, and I always use that example, the traditional symbol of transformation, the butterfly, right? Well, think about it. That caterpillar goes into this cocoon on its own. It's a very personal process and it needs to be because you're redefining who you are. Now also think about, look at the symbolism of it too. The caterpillar doesn't just stick on a pair of wings, you know, and become a butterfly. The caterpillar Hangs itself from a branch in order to die to the life it's known, right?

Absolutely. It just becomes a jumbled mess. Yes.

And that is willing to go through all of that messy and uncomfortable in order to become the butterfly. We cannot get through stage 4 and stage 5 if we are unwilling to get uncomfortable. It is uncomfortable, but that's where that growth and, and transformation is. Did you want me to get to stage 5?

Please. Yes. I'm so glad you said that though, because that is the important aspect. You know, I work with lots of couples. I work with lots of women. I was just working with a guy yesterday who's in the midst of this divorce that he knows needs to happen, but he's grieving. And that is what he— he's only now after 30 years of marriage gotten to a point where he's willing to go through that hard part to get to what he knows is gonna— going to be healthy. But yeah, you have to be willing to do it and it's scary. You don't have to feel like you're capable of doing it. You just have to be willing to take that first step.

Exactly. And grieving is a huge part of the transformation as well. You know, if we're not grieving, it's because we haven't recognized that something is, is gone.

Excellent point. Yes.

So that's, that's one of those things we also see as someone's moving towards stage 4. The grieving, you know, doesn't happen early on because they're clear. Like, if you're stuck in stage 3, stage 3, you are clinging for dear life at the known, your story, what's, you know, the old everything. So there's really no— the grieving really hits when we truly acknowledge, I can't undo this, but I control what I do with it. And grieving has a beautiful place right there.

Hmm.

Really, really important. And anyway, when we're in stage 4, we're making it cozy, you know, mentally we're making it home. We move into the 5th most beautiful stage, and this is healing. Rebirth and a new worldview. The body starts to heal. Self-love, self-care, eating well, exercise. We didn't have the bandwidth for that earlier. We were surviving. Now we do. The mind is healing. We're making new rules. We're making new boundaries based on everything we see so clearly now. And we have a new worldview based on our entire experience and the 4 legs of that table. In the beginning, it was all about the physical and the mental. Mm-hmm. By this point, we're solidly grounded because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too. Those are the 5 stages.

So to get from 4 to 5, you really need to go deep into the emotional and spiritual life of yourself, essentially.

Yeah. Oh, definitely. You really, um, it's, it really is. Betrayal lends itself to creating an entirely new identity. You take all the parts you love, You leave behind everything that no longer serves and you create a version of you that never would've had the opportunity to show up had that not happened.

Wow. I love that, that betrayal creates a whole new identity for yourself, a healthier, more beautiful one. If you are intentional and you don't harden, right?

That's it. It's so easy to just get hardened and stay in stage 3. And so many people do, they'll either have repeat betrayals or they put the big wall up and they're like, Nope. Been there, done that. I'm not letting anybody get close to my heart again. That's why I swear off relationships. It's easier that way.

You know, sometimes there's this pride in that as if I'm better than that and I'm doing this and you're just, you're just keeping yourself from all the good.

You really are. It's like, let's say you love cooking and you get burned on the stove and you're like, that's it. I'm never cooking again. That's not fair to you.

Right.

You know?

Yeah. Good analogy.

Yeah. So, so we need to relearn how to do things carefully, how to rebuild that trust. Rebuild our BS meter, our sense of self, all the things that were destroyed. And and that's what stage five looks like. I mean, it's it's this strength and this level of health and confidence. And I'll tell you, I see it all the time. It's so interesting because once we work through all the trauma, get rid of all that, then I'll see new levels of health. Businesses are birthed, new relationships with that person or someone new. Those are stage 5 things. Like the PBT Institute, that was a stage 5 thing. You know, it's— you can't see what's waiting for you until you clear up all that trauma.

Beautiful. Wow, thank you for sharing with my audience. I, you know, I love the, the term post-betrayal syndrome because it's so specific and it can help someone to really understand, oh, I can see how this is related to this, and I can see that now I have work to do and why. Before we end for today, can— I'm just thinking of the woman who's listening to this podcast and saying, that's me. Okay, I hear these 5 steps. I'm terrified, but I realize there's something I want to do. Can you help her with just one first step?

Oh, well, first of all, I get how painful it is. I've been there, and there was no roadmap. And there is no. So I didn't do anything anyone else couldn't do. So it's not reserved for some. I mean, this is just move through the stages. Like you said before, willingness—that's really all all it takes. Just be willing, and there's a version of you that is so healed and so healthy and so strong and so confident waiting. In stage 5, waiting for your willingness. So whatever it is that you need to, to do, just to say stage 3 just isn't a fit anymore. I deserve so much better than that.

I love that. Thank you. So how can people find you? How can people reach out, get some help?

Uh, there's everything is at the PBT, as in post-betrayal transformation, thepbtinstitute.com.

Excellent. I will add that to the show notes.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Dr. Debbie, for sharing all of your wisdom. It was great to have you today.

Thank you.

Bye.