Finding The Courage You Need with Sandy Stream

Hey there, welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. I'm your host, Dr. Zoe. Today we're going to talk to author Sandy Stream, and we're going to be talking about the courage, just courage to kind of live a truth and dare kind of life. Listen in. Sandy, I'm so glad to have you on today. Thank you for making the time to, to come talk to us.

I'm very happy to be here with you, Zoe.

Thank you. So we're going to talk about courage today, and courage, man, first of all, I love the word because I try my best to be brave and courageous in so many of the things that I do in, in the world, and I try to encourage my clients to do the same. So when I heard that you wrote this book about courage, I was very excited, and so I wanted to dive in. So can you tell me a little bit, just tell my audience a little bit about your story and how you came to really begin to do work on courage?

I think this book anyways came about, you know, I've lived a life that, like many others, had a ton of difficulties, and everyone has different difficulties and different things. But the last 3 were particularly difficult, like for so many people. And I just ended up sitting a lot with myself and with a lot of meditation apps and talks and anything I could get my hands on, and really just try to find my own sanity and my own peace inside.

Mm-hmm.

And so, um, these sanity notes, uh, came together and became a, a book. And it's, um, I guess it's the pieces of my puzzle of how I managed to live my life now feeling pretty much well all the time. Like, no matter what's going on, I'm able to navigate myself, basically. And, um, courage was a big part of it, obviously, because when we're making any change, there's often a lot of fear of what is it going to be like, which is different than now. We don't know what's going to happen. And So there is a bit of a leap that occurs, you know, when you're doing change or when you're doing something new for yourself, usually that you might have not done. So courage is really, for me, an important step of going from, you know, all the lower— I don't want to say lower as if we're comparing emotions, but in terms of the difficult, whether we're going from shame or Guilt and anger and nothing wrong with anger, by the way. But if we're going from there to changing our life, you know, courage is often that necessary component. So.

Wonderful.

Yeah.

So that was kind of your difficult 3 years was the impetus for you learning to encourage yourself and then therefore the book came.

Yeah. Therefore the book came and from there came my next step, which is the Courage Circles. So now I facilitate circles in Montreal. Um, where, you know, you might think courage is, okay, we have to go like jump from a train or do some drastic thing. But, you know, often courage is just to appear. Uh-huh. You know, uh, last time somebody came and said that, you know, they have social anxiety and they came to just try to be there and see how they can help them. Now, for me, that's huge courage, you know, just to be able to come there and, and sit around. And we just, um, we discussed things honestly. So I think that's a very rare thing in our world where people are honest with what they feel, what they're going through, and where there's, uh, little tolerance or no tolerance. I would say maybe I don't really say it, but I guess people feel it, um, by the way that I describe the listening that we need to do in the room.

Mm-hmm.

Um, that we don't tolerate putting each other down. Basically, we're just listening to each other and seeing what people think, what people feel.

Right.

And so it's a space where it's just fabulous. I mean, it's just amazing. People open up very quickly. People encourage each other. It's just— I wish it expands into our world. Courage Circles.

Very interesting.

Yeah.

Very interesting.

Fantastic.

Yeah. When I think about courage, I think about so many things that women— because the majority of my audience is women— that women need to find the courage to do. Right? There's sometimes the courage to speak up. There's the courage to be quiet. There's, there's the courage to end a relationship, or there's the courage to speak the really scary truth. Yeah. And you talk about, and we'll talk about too, is the courage to actually see ourselves and the courage to be honest with ourselves, the courage to work on our own relationships. So, and our relationship with ourselves. So I love that word courage, and I can think of, of so many applications of that to women men's lives. And the courage circles sound amazing. I don't think we can all have courage circles, but I wonder how we can facilitate more courage in our life because I think the majority of the things that we want to do in our life, all the potential that we have inside of us, we tend to be the sabotagers of it, right? It's not always the things that happen in our life or those roadblocks. It's ourself and it's our mindset. And if we can find the courage to somehow break through and get through mindset, then we're able to have all the good I think that we have potentially, you know, to have in this world. So can you talk a little bit about how we get from a place of fear to courage?

Yeah, I mean, for me, the first thing that happened is to really realize that we need to stop demonizing our emotions. I mean, that's a big part of it. We're really starting to feel ourselves. So we've been— this concept has been demonized for about 5,000 years. I hope we're getting close to the end of that soon.

What concept? The concept of—

Yeah, demonizing our emotions. I mean, this is what we feel, so why would that be? You know, by definition, if you think something you feel is wrong, then there must be something wrong with you. Then, you know, something— my body's wrong, I'm wrong, you know, I'm all messed up, which is completely the opposite of the truth, in my opinion. But so stopping to demonize our emotions and doing the contrary, meaning to listen to what we feel and to trust that, is very, very hard to do because—

Exactly.

Nobody, you know, really encourages that. They basically tell you, stop feeling this, you shouldn't feel that, you should do this, you shouldn't do that, don't trust this. And so just to even go there and say, no, you know, I feel sad, and that there's nothing wrong with that. I'm allowed to feel sad. It makes sense I feel sad. Maybe I lost a person, maybe I'm lonely, maybe whatever. So to say, no, there's nothing wrong with my feeling, it's actually, uh, I better listen to it and see what I need. Or if I'm angry, maybe, you know, I need to put a boundary. Somebody, uh, you know, I'm feeling disrespected or something. So, so to actually trust our emotions instead of push them aside is already a pretty dramatic move, I think, uh, for many people.

Yeah. And I think when we look at, okay, so how do we trust our emotions? I think one of the things is what we tell ourselves. So I hear you, I hear you saying emotions are not bad. I would go a step further and say all emotions are good. And that's what I say to all of my clients. So when you start to feel something and your self-talk, your taught way of looking at things says, this is bad, let me stop, let me not feel this way, then what you want to say to yourself and remind yourself all of the time, all emotions are good. And so if all emotions are good, emotions are there for a purpose, right? And so then it's the question of, what is my emotion trying to tell me?

Yes.

And if you can sit with, okay, my anger tells me something's wrong, ask yourself what's wrong, right? My sadness tells me I've lost something. So you want to ask yourself, what have I lost? You really want to start to explore. You know, your fear tells you I'm in danger. What do I feel is threatening me? And so if you can then start to reframe the idea of your emotions and be curious about them, then those— that's kind of the first step to not demonizing them.

Yeah, absolutely. And I agree with you on that fully. But I mean, it's very hard for people, right? Because they've spent their whole life being put down basically in a subtle way or in a direct way. I think it's actually prevalent, you know, just in our regular life by tone of voice especially. It's not necessarily you're an idiot, but the tone of voice is often like, I'm better than you, or you're so stupid, or you didn't achieve, or whatever. You know, it's the tone of voice that we're just surrounded with. And so people walk around constantly feeling something is wrong with them. And so for sure, the first instinct when anything occurs is like, oh, what did I do wrong? Or what's wrong with me? Or what? You know? Right. And so to turn this upside down completely Would be to try to start to, whether you do it through meditation or movement or whatever you do, to try to feel yourself internally. And, you know, maybe just trust a little bit that there's goodness there. You know, there's goodness inside. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with you, even if you made mistakes, even if you didn't get degrees, even if you didn't have kids, did have kids, have a dog, don't have a dog. You know, no matter what you've done or achieved or not achieved. You know, there's just goodness inside. And so if you start from starting to feel again, not only now your emotions, but starting to feel your own heart space and feel your own heart and knowing, you know, understanding yourself and caring about yourself, um, that for me is the place to start, um, really everything from this knowing, this deep knowing that we are all, uh, deeply just fine inside. You know, there's nothing really to fix in there. It's all fine.

Yeah.

It's a very hard thing to, to experience when everyone around you is saying the opposite. But in our circle, that's exactly what goes on. That is precisely the energy that's in the room. We really drop our titles. I'm the first to drop it. I actually have a law degree from a very prestigious university, and I start the circles by introducing myself with my law degree. Everyone introduces themselves with all their prestige or non-prestige or dogs and cats.

Right.

And then we drop it. And then I ask everyone, can we just drop all that for a moment for this 1 hour we're together and just talk to each other from a place that's more center, more human?

And

it happens very quickly. People just feel great knowing that they're not defined by all these things. And it's the truth. And it's a wonderful way to be with each other.

It is. But I'm thinking about the woman at home who doesn't have a courage circle and is trying to figure out, how can I find courage to do the thing in my life that I really need to do or know I want to do. And so can we— and in community, often we do when we attempt to be vulnerable and we get positive feedback from that. There is a lot that we can get from that, but not everybody has community. And so I'm just trying to think of those steps, right? So you talked about not demonizing emotions. Yeah. Another thing you talk about is painful truths, is like being able to talk to yourself about your pain Painful truths. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah. Well, for me, at least, um, you know, when you're looking, trying to find the truth instead of trying to find what, you know, what's going to feel okay, that's very relieving. You know, if we look for the truth, okay, it's actually true. My parents didn't really love me unconditionally, or my partner is not so interested, or whatever. We see the truth instead of constantly hiding away from the pain. Then we can process this pain, and our body will eventually, you know, release it, whether it's through tears or, you know, whatever way that your body will do it with someone or by yourself. And then we could release all that energy and, and not be, you know, stuck in the pain. So it's very hard for people to actually go towards pain instead of away from pain.

Yes.

But the truth is actually What is very relieving, and then we can make decisions from the truth instead of making decisions based on delusion or lies or something that's not even in reality. So the truth is what we feel. Our feelings are true. You know, they're actually in reality. The pain is true. Other things are not true. They're kind of inventions in our head.

Right, right. Yeah, the feelings, the feelings are valid. The stories we have behind the feelings are often not, not valid or true. But I love what you said when you said— what were you saying about painful truths?

Yeah, the truth is true. So if we realize, okay, the truth is I feel really lonely. Right? Right. If you really feel that loneliness, then okay, so that I'm in the truth now. Now I can see, okay, what should I do? Oh, okay, maybe I need to join something. Maybe I need to get out there. But we're operating from the truth instead of from Avoiding the truth, and then you're not really basing your decisions on reality. You're just getting away from reality all the time.

Right.

And another thing that I find is super, you know, was very powerful for me is to start always saying, you know, trying to see, can I get things from myself instead of always trying to get things from outside myself? Because that is a way to live always kind of in a bit of a desperation of what other people do. So as an example, the simple thing of approval, right? So people walk around a lot looking for, this one likes me, that one doesn't like me, this one approves of me, this one doesn't. It comes from childhood, obviously, for most of us. Right. And, you know, are we able to approve ourselves or validate ourselves or love ourselves and not give that decision-making and that power to another human being and say, you know, not that I don't like you, Zoe, but I'm not going to say, Zoe, can you decide If I'm a good person or not? Or can you decide if I'm likable, Zoe, and you tell me if you think I'm likable? Or can you tell me if I deserve good things? Like, that would be, you know, that's not a very— doesn't make sense to do that, right? For me to give that to you.

Right.

Right? Even if you might make a fine decision or not, I don't know. But I'm absolutely not going to give that to another human being. And I'm going to look for that in myself so that I can walk around in the world knowing myself deeply and, um, and feel like, uh, you know, whatever I do is not from that seeking, you know, from that trying to get from somebody else, you know, some kind of validation or whatever. It doesn't mean we don't share and have love with, with other people, but it's not, if I don't get it from them, then I am, you know, cannot function in the world. So it's, it's a very difficult step to mature into, you know. But it helps when someone guides us and just tells us, well, maybe have a look. Maybe you could, you know, look for that. And how does it feel when you do that for yourself? You know, and I think that's probably a lot of the work you seem to be doing, Zoe.

Absolutely.

Look at your profile. Yeah.

Yeah. So when we talk about courage, what you're saying is that if we're able to accept our feelings and really Maybe just— I don't know if the word is love, but something more than acceptance. I can't think of a word right now. But if we're able to accept our feelings and integrate them into who we are instead of pushing them away, if we're able to challenge ourselves about our stories and what we believe are truths, right? If we're able to look at ourselves and say the painful things like, oh, maybe my behavior distanced myself from my relationship, right? Or I am an alcoholic, or I struggle with, you know, being on time, or I struggle with respecting other people, or I struggle, you know, if we're real about the realities of who we are, if we're able to look at those painful truths, then we're able to then have courage. It creates courage in ourselves.

Yeah. But one little tweak I would say to that, if it's okay, or clarification, at least from my point of view.

Yeah.

Is, you know, people will often have a hard time, you know, looking at those things that you mentioned if they feel that's who they are. You know, it's not really who they are. To me, at least, it's my experience. Like, who we are, I try to see it as just, you know, see yourself as some goodness energy inside. You're just the goodness. That's all you are. And then we're doing all kinds of things in our life— mistakes, behaviors, messed up, not— but doing those does not touch this inner person. It's, it's not you. It's not touching the integral part of you. You're just making mistakes, or you're not seeing something. And so this helps the separation between who you are and the behavior really helps. Because otherwise, if we are just ranking, which I don't agree with this whole point system that exists in our world, somehow like we're ranked by what we do and don't do. Right. You're an alcoholic, you lose some points. You're this, you gain points. You slept well, you know, whatever. you do, you're getting and losing points all the time, then it's very hard to see those things because then I'm going to lose some points, right? But if I see myself internally like, okay, I'm, I'm a good human being inside, there's nothing wrong with me inside. But you know what? It's true. I haven't been putting boundaries in this relationship. And maybe I am playing a part in what's going on, but I'm not doing it in a very self-blamey, attacky way of myself and telling myself I'm a horrible person. Right. No, I'm a very fine, good person who just didn't learn how to put boundaries, or didn't, you know, have friends when I was young because of this, or whatever happened, whatever experiences occurred. So the separation of our, our inner goodness and whatever behaviors we need to notice— and believe me, I'm the first to have noticed millions I was doing myself, like, oh man, I shouldn't do that, that's not really good for me or for someone else or whatever else— but finding this inner, um, Goodness for me is really, you know, opens up the possibility to seeing anything. So you can tell me now, though, you know what, Sandy, I really didn't appreciate you did this and that, or that hurt me. I'm like, oh, really? Like, I'm open to hearing anything.

Yeah.

You cannot touch me inside. It will not attack me personally because inside I feel like, okay, maybe I made a mistake. I can look at that like no problem. You know, I'm capable of mistakes, obviously.

Absolutely. Yeah, that's, that's courage. I believe that that's courage. And as you're talking about that, what comes to mind to me is shame. And so I'm writing a book on shame right now. So certainly shame, you know, I've got this confirmation bias. I'm seeing shame everywhere. But shame is where we take our behaviors or we take things that are done to us or we take guilt, right? Which says, you know, maybe I did something wrong or that was done wrong to me. And shame becomes I am wrong. Right.

Right. Yes.

And so I think it's about— and part of healing from shame is being able to separate that, is being able to separate my behavior, even my patterns, from who I am. And when you can do that, then like you said, you can walk in courage because you're not taking ownership of that as, as, as yourself. You're just recognizing, okay, I can look at that now a little more objectively, and I can see maybe That's not a behavior that I want to continue to do. And I can also understand, because my belief is that all behavior makes sense in its context, I can understand why I did that, or I can understand how that happened to me, or I can—

Oh yeah.

How I came to be in that situation, right? But that's not who I am. And I think that when we can say, yes, that, but that's not who I am, I think we can stand a little stronger, stand a little taller, and have courage.

Oh, yeah, it's a major turn. Beautiful. I totally agree with you. I mean, I have one little story I put in the book about a girl that she was wearing a prom dress and she was sitting. It was outdoors. I was going to pick up my daughter and her mom was, for whatever reason, screaming at her and literally calling her, you're such an idiot, you're this, like, really? And the girl was sitting there with her head down very low and she was just insulting her nonstop. And I actually made a choice. I went next to her when the mom walked away a bit, and I'm like, you're not an idiot. I just whispered it.

Oh, beautiful. Yeah.

I just couldn't stand witnessing that. It was very hard for me to watch that going on. But if you imagine that kind of story and imagining yourselves like most people, so if you had people in your life, and I think every single person had people in their life who were saying you are an idiot in one form or another, it could be a put-down by a teacher, a colleague, a parent. a tone of voice, like we're constantly— and so what do you think happens when this girl is older, right? She has these— they're just thoughts, they're not necessarily true. There is this thought that's been, you know, taken inside, you know, because she heard it so many times. You're an idiot, you're an idiot, you're an idiot. So now she probably walks around with that thought. Okay, maybe I'm an idiot. I must be an idiot. Maybe I'm an idiot, you know. Yeah. So these are thoughts That are not necessarily true.

Correct. Right.

The truth is in the heart. And the truth is that every single person in their heart is pure goodness. There's nothing wrong with them. There's nothing to fix. They're just going through things and need to look at what they're going through, help themselves deal with it or whatever, get some help. But that is my, you know, my deep belief, at least in myself and others now. I didn't have this before, you know. And I'm

wrestling with that one as you're talking about it, that every single person has pure— in their heart is pure goodness. I think that applies to most.

Yes. I'm struggling to think of some rare exceptions.

Applies to all. Yeah. And then the question I think is—

I haven't met any. So I've certainly met many people that have shown narcissism. narcissistic traits. I've dealt with major, you know, anger management issues with others. I've dealt with emotional dis— I mean, I have dealt with a lot of people, you know, demeanings and dismissiveness and all kinds of things. And to me so far, but I can't speak for you, my feeling so far is that those people are quite injured.

Absolutely.

Have not, you know, they have not taken the time or been able or been able to access, you know, the time or awareness to look what's going on with themselves or why these are happening. And so that's where I stand so far. I have not met such a person yet, but perhaps there are some exceptions. But I think for the most part, people who are conducting themselves with behaviors that are really unacceptable— so just because I think we're pure goodness inside, that does not mean that I consider behavior acceptable. Actually, I'm extremely strict with my boundaries.

Yeah.

Um, you know, and so just, uh, but so what we can do with that is put very strict boundaries. But I'm not convinced, at least, that those people have not experienced whatever they've experienced that led them to those behaviors, and they haven't had the opportunity to, you know, see what's going on or why they do that or what's going on. But it's not for me to necessarily, uh, You know, deal with that. I think every person is responsible for themselves. So it's my responsibility to take care of myself, you know.

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely not our place to judge. It's definitely not our place to always fix either, that's for sure. And, you know, the reality is that some people choose not to, and, and that's why I talk about the, the concept of all behavior makes sense in its context. I think with any situation, whether you're talking about the mass murderer or, or, you know, serial killers or torturers or pedophiles or people who do really heinous things in this world, we can all go back and look at their story from infancy to present and understand why they did it.

Mm-hmm.

Doesn't make it okay. I struggle with the concept of, of everyone having internal goodness, but that's, you know, my thing. And so Yeah, for sure. All behavior makes sense in its context. We can always understand why people do really heinous things. But let's talk about boundaries before we close. You were, you were mentioning, okay, maybe about, you know, it just is an indication that you need some stronger boundaries. Let's talk about how does bound— how do boundaries and courage go together?

Yeah, I mean, boundaries are really the most important thing that I think everyone can learn to do, especially You know, in many families, this was not taught or accepted at all or encouraged. So saying no to anything was not okay as a child. And, and you probably grew up having very big difficulty saying no. Um, you know, you might feel like a bad person if you say no. That's a big one, which is not true. So for me, boundaries, uh, it took me a long time to really get them well. It's basically, again, we start with feeling our own emotions. That's why it starts there. But then we start to feel everything. We're not just feeling emotions. We're kind of feeling life. We're feeling ourselves. We're feeling the world. We're feeling what we should do. You know, it goes beyond that eventually. But boundaries often come up when you feel angry. You know, if you feel angry, it means you, you know, probably need to set a boundary somewhere. Meaning not that you want to control the other person. Not like, I'm setting a boundary. You can't talk to me that way, so you stop. And then they do it. You're like, no, I told you it's a boundary. You stop. No, but that's controlling the other party, right? So that's not a boundary. Boundary means this is not something that's okay with me, so I will do what I need to do.

Yes.

You know, um, in this situation. And that took me forever to really realize that boundary is just what is not okay with me. Um,

the rule that you have for yourself. Yes,

at that moment, you know. And it might change. Maybe next year I could, you know, maybe at this point in my life, for whatever reason, you know, something is very hard for me. So I'm— I won't tolerate this and that, or I can't handle noise, or who knows? There's no rules about boundaries. It could be anything. But it's okay, right, to have them and to respect them. Because when you're respecting them, you're following yourself, basically what your body and your mind and your heart needs at that moment. And you're following that and listening to that instead of ignoring it. Which will get you into trouble physically and emotionally and in every single way.

And

so boundaries end up just defining us, right? Their definition— this is like who I am. They end up forming our, our individuality. They're not, uh, controlling, um, systems. Boundary, they're just, you know, is okay for you in that situation.

And so for a woman who knows she needs to have boundaries but is really wanting to figure out how do I get the courage to erect my boundaries, to hold them tight? What would you say is a first step?

I mean, I'd need to understand which ones are hard to put, you know, what guilt is behind doing that. Often there's a lot of guilt, and I think guilt and shame both are very powerful emotions that are, you know, they're put on us. Those are not really emotions. They're not like sad and angry. Those are ours. But guilt and shame, they kind of come from outside. I see them as not being ours. So guilt has often, you know, been put on in deep ways to many people, like, oh, you should be nice to the grandparent. Yeah, you should do this, you should whatever. So it's very hard to kind of put aside all the rules that you've been put and just say no. But the main thing to me is that to, to realize that you're responsible for your well-being. So absolutely, yeah. If you don't do it well, It's on you, and you're going to deal with the consequences of not taking care of yourself. So if you put boundaries, then you will, you will feel better eventually. Maybe not immediately. I could tell you one of the boundaries that I put once, I caused a whole scene at a family gathering by putting a boundary. Everybody was upset at me. Everyone thought, oh my God, she caused such a scene. Not that I was screaming out, but it was— You know, ruin the vibe of everybody, you know, everything being supposedly at peace. So, you know, not keeping the peace, basically. But then I realized, you know, the day after, even though at the time it didn't look like I'm keeping the peace and I was crying, everyone's upset and all that.

What was the boundary that you put?

No, I just told someone to, you know, not speak that way, whatever. But it caused, like, friction and disharmony and outer Non-peace, right? So outside there was no peace. I disturbed the peace, basically, right? But then what I realized the next morning, it was like, huh, but inside I feel at peace, actually.

Beautiful. Yeah.

Inside I'm at peace about this because I did what I feel I should do. So this distinguishing between keeping the peace outside and keeping the peace inside, for me, is very critical. And I feel my job is to keep the peace inside. And when you're keeping the peace inside, then you become a peaceful actor in our world. And so that's what I try to look for, to do things that I feel at peace about, whatever it is. I feel at peace with what I'm doing. So I'm sorry everybody doesn't agree, but that's what makes me feel— that takes a lot of courage because you're going to have to stand alone a little bit sometimes. It's hard.

That in and of itself takes courage. And I think it's so crucial. And for the woman who's like, I don't have the courage to even start that process, I want you to think about the end goal. And we have to walk through fear to get to the good stuff, right? And so if when we're feeling really scared and we don't feel like we have any courage, if we can think about and try to project ourselves to the benefit of doing the scary thing, sometimes it can help us garnish enough fear to start to walk through. Right. But I think you have to recognize that Fear is not going to be gone, and fear is a big part of courage, right? You have to walk through that.

Yeah, but, you know, we, we may have not realized— like I said, we're always looking outside for so many things. We may not realize we actually have a ton of powerful energy just inside. We don't even need to go get it. Like, it's there. And so if you just allow that to rise inside of you, sometimes included in your anger, Which again, especially for women, has been a very difficult emotion for them to feel. They've been told they shouldn't feel upset, they shouldn't feel angry. But anger is actually a very healthy emotion to get us towards— It's great. Enforcing, uh, yeah, to enforcing whatever boundaries, uh, we need to do and accessing this inner power that not only women but all human beings have internally. Maybe it's been a little suppressed, But it's there. Yeah, it's there. It's there. Go look. You'll see. You got it inside. So, you know, when we start again to feel ourselves, feel our emotions, feel our heart, feel our whatever, and then we can start to also feel this powerful energy that we all have internally. Yeah.

Beautiful. So, Sandy, thank you for coming on and sharing your wisdom. Do you have one last word of encouragement for a woman who might notice Ah, I struggle with courage. There are a lot of things I want to do and say and the way that I want to show up in the world, but I struggle with that courage.

Um, I would say the one thing that I never hear anyone say and that I didn't really get to hear, so I'll say that at least to— for somebody's ears to hear, which would be to trust yourself. Trust yourself. Trust yourself even if nobody has ever trusted you before.

I love that. That's beautiful. How can people get a hold of you, Sandy?

Um, so the only way to reach me is on my website. I don't really do social media, and it took me a lot of courage to do podcasts, I have to tell you.

Good for you.

Yeah. So I'm— I have my website. It's called thecouragecircle.com. If you want to email me, or if you're in Montreal, you want to join our courage circles, uh, it would be a pleasure to have people join. Or if you're interested interested in my book or anything else, it's all on the website.

Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on, Sandy.

And thank you, Zoe. Sounds like you do great work, so I wish you lots of luck.

Thank you.