Get Off the Dating Roller Coaster and Attract Real Love with Dr. Morgan Anderson

Dr. Morgan, I'm thrilled to have you on today. I just finished your book, so we're gonna be talking a lot about that. But the whole topic of the, the conversation today is about dating and the rollercoaster of dating. Thanks for coming on today.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so looking forward to our conversation.

I am too. So I have to say that I loved how you started your book out with the story of Ricardo. Because I think we all have had Ricardo in our life at one point or another. Um, so I think it's, it's super relatable. Can you tell my listeners just a little bit about your journey, your dating journey, and how you got to, to writing this book?

Absolutely. Yeah, I'm happy to share. Um, before we get going, I wanted to tell you my dad is one of your biggest fans.

Oh my goodness.

He reads your self-care book every day and actually does the thing. So you've helped my dad so much.

I'm so— which is awesome. I love it when men love my book. I love, I love hearing from guys who are like, I love your book. I'm like, oh, that's great. Because it's not just for women. Guys have to care for themselves too, right?

He loves it. So, yeah. Anyways, thank you for

sharing.

Yeah. So my dating journey, I feel like so many people who end up in the clinical psych field, I had my own share of childhood trauma, losing my mom at a really young age and And then my dad is now in his 4th marriage, a wonderful marriage, but I kind of saw him go through really tough— yeah.

How old were you when you lost your mom?

I was 6 years old. Yeah. So just that fear of abandonment for me developed really early, and I just found myself really drawn to Helping people, helping others. I think sometimes we find ourselves in this field as a way to try to understand ourselves and maybe unconsciously avoid our own healing, which I learned later.

Unfortunately, that's the unhealthy— could be an unhealthy consequence of this. The healthy one is that we are actually healing ourselves. Right. Process.

Yes. Yeah. So that's kind of how my life started. And then I was always trying to get— I say, like, get people to love me. Like, I can remember even in middle school, my early people that I dated, it was like such a fear that I'd be abandoned. And I had anxious attachment very young. And then I'm in my second year of graduate school, getting my doctorate. And I found myself dating a narcissist. And of course, like anyone who finds themselves there, I didn't know that going into it. But I spent a year and a half in that relationship.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm telling you, Zoe, that was my rock bottom. At the very end of that, I had no self-worth. I was just completely isolated from friends and family. And I just remember thinking that I cannot continue to do what I've done in relationships. This clearly is not working. I have to figure this out. Um, and that's when I went to therapy for the first time myself.

And you were in grad school at that time?

And I'm in grad school.

That's when I had my first therapy experience, was grad school.

Right. And then, um, I threw myself into researching attachment theory because it was one of the only things that made things make sense and kind of helped me understand why I did what I did.

Right.

So threw myself into that. Um, and then my relationship started to get a little bit better, and now I get to help people heal and learn how to become securely attached. And I'm in an incredible relationship going on 2 years, and Things are so much better than I ever thought they could have been in my dating life, and I'm just so passionate about helping other people get to that place.

Yes, thank you for sharing your story. And that's what we're going to talk about today, is getting off of that crazy dating roller coaster. So you mentioned a couple of things— well, you mentioned it twice— attachment. Can you share what is attachment theory? I mean, we know, but you know, not everybody understands Attachment theory and how it relates to how you're relating to people now, not just your parents when you were younger, but now.

Yeah, I love this question. Um, I always will tell my clients that it is the missing piece of the dating puzzle. It really helps you understand why you do what you do in relationships and also why you are attracted to the kinds of people that you're attracted to.

Yes.

So I always say it's a framework for understanding relationship dynamics. And you and I know that with understanding comes compassion.

Right.

With compassion comes change. So I really see it as this way to understand why you do what you do. Um, and then I don't know, do you want me to go into the styles? Do we want to go into—

Yeah, maybe just explain the 4 styles just so people understand what it is and might be able to kind of put themselves in a little box. I hate to say box, but a place.

Yeah. And I do want to share that I do have a quiz if people are like, oh, I want to know what percent I am. I have a quiz in my Instagram bio if you want to know. Um, but yes, there are—

Dr. Morgan Coaching, right?

Thank you. Thank you. Yes, Dr. Morgan Coaching. There's a link there in my bio. Um, but 4 main attachment styles. We have Anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, disorganized, and secure. For anxious attachment, just in a nutshell, it is where you are prioritizing the relationship and maintaining the relationship above yourself and your own needs.

Right.

And usually you have a fear of abandonment, and you really struggle with communicating boundaries and your feelings and your needs. And you might find yourself getting into codependent dynamics.

That sounds about right. Yes.

Yes. Yes. And I do want to clarify, this can be on a spectrum here. So you might be 75% anxious, 25% avoidant, or 50% secure, 50% anxious. So you may identify with more than one style. The second style is avoidant attachment. And this is where intimacy is tough in terms of you oftentimes feel like you could be losing your freedom or you might be losing yourself. And there's usually a deep fear that people will disappoint you or that you will disappoint others. So you feel much more comfortable being that island and being hyper-independent and really relying on yourself.

And so you end up sabotaging, right? Healthy love because it's scary and then you want it, but then you find yourself feeling more comfortable in isolation. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think we're seeing, and this is just a little side note, but I have noticed, maybe you have too, I think more women than in the past are experiencing avoidant attachment. And I think that's just as things in our society have changed, but this idea of like, I'm the independent woman, I can take care of myself, I don't need anybody. Right.

Yes.

It's becoming even more common for women to experience that.

Right. I was just going to say, I really believe it's about that whole independent woman concept. And it's a protective— it's the shell that we put around ourselves. I don't need it. Because if we tell ourselves I don't need it, then we don't have to deal with the pain of not getting what we want. Right.

Exactly. Exactly. Um, and I know there's so much more we could say about avoidant attachment. One thing I like to always point out is this person can be so frustrating to date because if you feel like you're getting close, like let's say you went on a date with them and it was so amazing, you're like, oh, we so connected and it was like just incredible. There was fireworks, all the things. Guess what? That's gonna really trigger them to wanna pull away.

Exactly.

So this is that person you had that great date and then you don't hear from them for 2 weeks. You're like, what happened?

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

And you were more anxiously attached, right?

So I think I went through different times in my life. I would say like when I was really struggling, I was, um, disorganized. I was experiencing disorganized attachment, which we'll talk about. But yes, probably more anxious than avoidant. But I would pretend to be avoidant, which is something I talk about with people too, where you're pretending on the outside, but on the inside, you're actually anxiously attached.

Yes. Well, we're taught to do that too. I mean, the other thing is the socialization aspect. Pretend like you're not interested. Wait this long before you text back. And that actually, unfortunately, I think just helps to grow the anxiousness, although you're appearing to be avoidant. Yeah.

It's so true. It's so true. That's the advice our girlfriends give us, right? Like, don't text him back. But yeah. So the next style, then, disorganized attachment, um, or fearful avoidant is also referred to as that, right? Where you are pendulum swinging between anxious and avoidant strategies. And as, as you know, we see this a lot with childhood trauma,

right?

Um, and you have that Simultaneous deep, deep fear of abandonment paired with closeness is scary.

Absolutely. It's terrifying.

Right. So you take 2 steps forward, 2 steps back. Um, and this is obviously a very painful attachment style to experience. Um, and I'm trying to think what else would be important to know. Yeah, just that this person really struggles to regulate their emotions, and they, they'll have like a lot of inner chaos going on. Yeah. And then we have secure.

Yes.

Secure.

Do you see many of those?

You know what always blows my mind is that it is actually about 50% of the population.

Right.

And of course, after doing a lot of work and my own healing, I can see those securely attached people, but I know When I first heard that, I was like, what? Where are they? They don't exist, right? I was not meeting these securely attached people, but it's 50% of the population.

I'm so, so glad that you just said that because I have so many women in my practice who are, you know, dating and frustrated and wondering, should I just settle? Am I asking for too much? Right. And the reality is, yes, those guys are out there. What we put out does come back to us. So that's real too, right? We do kind of draw energetically people to us who aren't as healthy when we aren't as healthy. But the healthy, secure attached people are out there. We just have to wait. Yes. Be patient. Don't settle.

Yes, exactly. And this is that attachment style where you get to say, my needs and emotions matter and my partner's needs and emotions matter. I value myself. I value connection, right? I'm able to set boundaries. I'm able to communicate assertively,

right?

Um, relationships feel good and easy. I can navigate conflict. Conflict comes up, it doesn't feel like the end of a relationship,

right?

Um, the word that comes to mind is peaceful and connected, right? And this is where we all want to be when relationships feel good,

right? Lack of that desperation. My gardener is here, so he's walking around and my dogs are barking. So for anybody watching on YouTube, you're seeing that. Yeah, it's the lack of desperation in the relationship, which does just have a sense of ease.

Yeah. And you know what's so funny is I think about before I really did my healing work, I hated being alone. I did not want to spend time with myself. And then now moving towards this securely attached place, I really value my alone time.

Right.

And when my boyfriend is off fishing for the day, I am like, goodbye, enjoy yourself, have so much fun, get out of here. And I just love the relationship with myself.

Love

it so much. And I so value my connection with him, and I know that I can have Both. Whereas in the past, it was always that, like, ooh, am I going to lose this person if I don't try to always be what they needed every single moment?

Right. And that is the security, is that our loved ones can go and they can come back. And when they're gone, we're not in a space of losing ourselves. We're not in a space of feeling anxious. We can actually now enjoy being present with ourselves because we're not Worried about that relationship. Yeah, it's beautiful. So can you tell our listeners a little bit about how you got to that part? Can you talk to us about working from a place of, of a disorganized attachment to now a secure attachment? What's the process? I know they're going to read your book, hopefully, but can you explain what they can do?

I love this question, and it's not overnight, right? If anybody's looking for that quick fix. Um, so, and, and I wrote the book Love Magnet because I wanted to give people a guide. And, you know, it's very experiential, and it's designed that way on purpose because I wanted to give you things that'll actually move you towards secure attachment. Um, the first step is awareness, which we're already talking about,

right?

Trying— Learning to identify your own attachment style. I also really believe in looking at our past relationships, and I created something called the Relationship Inventory, where we take a 30,000-foot view of all your past significant relationships, and then we can see the patterns.

I love that.

And what this does is it gives so much compassion. And then once again, with compassion, we can release. So you can let the past go.

And then being able to see the patterns, then we can also see it before it's coming, right? When it comes up to us, we can be aware, oh yeah, I know that's what I do, that's who I pick. That's part of the awareness, is being able to see the pattern so that you can stop the next time.

Exactly, exactly. With that awareness, you become empowered. You get to become intentional instead of reactionary, which is what I always want people to learn how to do is shift to being intentional in their dating and in their love lives. The next thing, and I talk about this in the book a lot, but it's really working with belief systems. I love belief work. I came to that probably after my clinical training. I don't feel like it's talked about enough in traditional training. I

don't know if you experienced that. No.

Yeah.

I mean, you get a little bit of it in like CBT and otherwise, no, I don't think so.

Yeah, I am like, my biggest thing is deep, deep belief work where we get to help you really rewire your brain and really intentionally choose your identity, um, and create a brand new relationship blueprint because we all have unconsciously created this blueprint of what a relationship is and how we're supposed to be.

Right.

So I, I walk you through all that in the book, and if you really do that and apply it, it will absolutely change your life. And I'm evidence of that. That was one of the things that really, really changed my life was doing deep belief work, um, and re— rewiring my brain. Yeah.

So let me ask you this, because with, with clients that I work with who are struggling with dating, often they are picking the same person, right? They're attracted to the same person, and we have the issue of not being attracted to people who may be a little more healthy. Maybe it fits on their list of red flags, on their list of want— or I should say, all— none of the red flags are there. It fits all on their list of wants and desires, but there's no attraction. What is your advice for— I know, I know what my advice is, but I want to hear what yours is for a woman who's in that space. How should she date?

This is so good. So the 2 words that come to mind for me are repetition compulsion, and I talk about this in the book, and it's this process that you're really taking your unfinished business from childhood and you're reenacting it in your adult romantic relationships.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so What I would really want you to do is actually not date for a little bit and take a break and really work through some of that unfinished business.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and then intentionally decide what it is that you want instead of repeating those old dynamics. Um, I talk about this in the book, but this is obviously unconscious. It's not like you're saying, oh, I want to work out my childhood stuff in my dating life. Yeah, it's totally unconscious, but you need to get to a place where you are intentionally choosing your partners based off of what serves you as an adult instead of using it as a way to heal your childhood trauma, right? So,

oh yeah, that is said— that's said so beautifully. I love what you just said, that you need to intentionally choose what serves you as an adult instead of using your childhood traumas. to allow you to essentially attract yourself to people who aren't good for you, right? Yeah. I love that. And that goes along with a lot of the advice that I give when I'm working with women in the dating coaching, you know, sphere, is that we can't necessarily rely on that initial attraction, right? And we cannot use that as a rubric because that rubric doesn't work for you necessarily. And even when you've done the work, I still have women who show up and like, yeah, he's great. Like, all those things match. I know that that would be good for me, but I just don't feel the attraction. And my advice is to continue to date for a couple of dates to allow yourself to develop a friendship with this person, because that initial attraction sometimes is just not a good indicator for some women, right, of health in a relationship. Yeah.

Oh, this could be a whole other episode. We could go so deep on this. But you are absolutely right. I say the same thing. It's like if you're learning how to date from a securely attached place and that's new for you, you are learning to rewire your brain that secure attachment is sexy when your brain is wired to think that, ooh, a push-pull anxious avoidant dynamic is what love is and that that's what's hot.

The roller coaster is exciting, right? It brings up all of those butterflies in your stomach and it feels exhilarating. But is it healthy? Yeah, right. I love that securely attached, attached relationship is sexy.

Yes. And it's, as you know, secure attachment develops and builds and deepens over time.

Absolutely. Yes.

And when we think about everything in life that's worthwhile, that we really enjoy, that just really gives to us, it's a slow build. And, and remembering that we have to have that same approach in a relationship.

Right.

And things that really start with a bang end with a bang. It's a bad metaphor here, but you know what I mean? Like, it's— if it's fireworks up front, you're looking at usually a dumpster fire ending. So we want to start slow, gradual. And I always tell people, learn to be the love scientist. Gather the data on how you feel and how you feel in this person's presence and just allow yourself to gather that data over time.

That's beautiful. I love that. So what is a relationship template?

Yeah, so this is your working model for what a relationship is, all the unconscious beliefs and norms and ways of being that your brain created for you. I, I think of it as like your brain has a file cabinet for all the different things, and there's a drawer that's marked, this is what a relationship is,

and

you have all these things that have been filed in there.

Right.

And some of those things serve you and some of them don't, right? And your template, unless you intentionally recreate it, will continue to be what it always was and what was modeled to you by your past experiences.

Right. Right. I'm glad that I want to talk a little bit more about the template. But as you were talking about that, what came up for me was, um, a client who was talking about love and not understanding The difference between love. I just need to— I'm trying to figure out the best way to say this without giving away any confidentiality. The idea, basically, he had a very warped sense of what love was. And so when we started talking about it and it's like, well, that's not love and that's not love, then we actually had to go back to, okay, wait, what is love? What's the difference between healthy love and maybe someone who loves you, but can't love you in a healthy way. Right. And when you talk about that template, I think about his template. His template was that love is jealous, love is angry, right? Love is demeaning. But if you tell me you love me, then you do. So we all have different templates based on how we were foundationally raised, right? Things, you know, whoever was foundationally pouring into us at that time or neglecting Yes. Um, and so if we take that template, which we do, into future relationships, then we're expecting to some extent that it should show— love should show up that way, even if it's not conscious, even if we know we don't want to be treated badly. But then we recognize there's a comfort level with what's familiar, right? So how do we start to change that template?

I'm so glad that you bring this up and This is so life-changing for people that can really apply it. Um, you start with realizing what your current template is,

right?

And, and you start with realizing where it came from.

Like getting those definitions. What is love? What is healthy love? Yeah, right. Okay.

Yeah. I have clients do beliefs about themselves and then beliefs about relationships. So part of the template is your beliefs about relationships.

Right.

And asking yourself that question of, well, who did I have to be in order to be loved? Like, what did I learn about how I was supposed to show up and ways of being? Um, and then it's that beautiful question, does this serve me? Like, what pieces of it actually serve you and what do you need to let go of?

Right.

And then it's— I love this part where it's the intentional design Of what you want your relationship to be like.

So do you have women actually write this down? Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And some of it's in the book. And then I also have a program, and that's where we go really deep dive in the program and like designing your ideal relationship.

And

to me, it's so empowering. My relationship with my partner looks nothing like any of the relationships I saw growing up. And Nothing like even my friends' relationships. And I know that's because I intentionally designed it and I have standards and I have routines that we do together that were born out of a desire to have what felt really good to me. And the reality is, is what feels good to me is different than you, than anyone else. So we get to tune in and learn what that is.

Right. And then we need to learn how to communicate that.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. So for the woman out there who is definitely on a roller coaster, who's frustrated, who's, you know, doing the dating apps and getting a bunch of junk, um, and, and wants to get off that roller coaster but also wants to make sure that she is Um, not settling, right? What is, what is one last word of advice that you would give her other than read your book, which, yeah, you should definitely

do? Yes, the book is helpful. Um, one thing I would say is, well, oh gosh, there's so many things. I just thought of like 7 things, but I think this is the most important, is really learning how to tune Inwards while you're dating and constantly come back to that question of, how do I feel in their presence? Do I feel the way that I want to feel in a relationship? And just using that question as your North Star and knowing that the better that you get at tuning inwards and trusting yourself and really, you know, being able to validate whatever is coming up for you. Mm-hmm. It just makes everything easy. So get really good at tuning in and asking that question, do I feel the way I want to feel in a relationship with this person? And then you get to be brave and give feedback if the answer is no. And then if you just realize this is not how I want to feel and this isn't able to be changed, you get to move on and you get to know I did what was right for me. Right.

Beautiful, beautiful. Thank you. So I ha— I feel like I wanna ask some dating questions of you.

Go for it.

Yeah, I, I had a couple that just came to mind. So first of all, what do you, what do you think of the dating apps? Should we or should we not?

So there's nothing wrong with the dating apps, but there is a lot wrong with how people use them.

Mm-hmm.

That's my opinion, that dating apps are simply opportunity creation tools. They are not relationship building tools.

Ah, okay.

People get themselves into trouble when they start building the connection on the app and they already have all these expectations and they're having these deep conversations. I really prefer for you to make the connection, you have zero expectations, and then have that phone date or the FaceTime date or the coffee date and decide if you want to invest emotionally by having gathered that data instead of just investing emotionally, going back and forth for weeks or even a month, and you don't even know if that person is worth your emotional investment.

Okay. Makes sense. So you wanna get in the app, use the app for the purpose to meet. And get off the app quickly and meet the person in real life.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah. And if you're not comfortable meeting up for coffee, by all means have a phone call. But it's that way to get the data that actually matters without wasting your emotional investment. Um, and I, I also will add, I have so much to say about this, that using the dating apps properly is kind of like developing a new gym routine. You want to just do it consistently and in small amounts, and you want to do it intentionally. So it's not like, oh, I'm watching Netflix, let me just like scroll and match. It's like, no, I'm gonna take 20 minutes of my day, maybe 5 days a week, and I'm gonna intentionally use the dating apps.

Okay, that makes a lot of sense, being intentional. Any specific ones that should be avoided if you're looking for long-term relationships? Or does it matter?

I, it's so funny. Like I can only go off of, I guess, like in terms of recent, cuz it's been a while for me, but I know people still say that Tinder is not the best, that that's like the hookup app.

Mm-hmm.

I, I will say I am pro website based off my clients' experiences. Like some of my clients who've been on Match or who have been on eHarmony,

mm-hmm,

they've had really good experiences and that matches up with me because it's more effort. Like, that's a smaller pool who's going to fill out a website.

Yeah.

So I think that those are worth, you know, worthwhile.

Website-based. Okay.

Yeah. Bumble, Hinge, you know, people love— Yeah.

Wait, wait, is Bumble— are Bumble and Hinge app or website?

They're apps.

They're apps. Okay. Okay. Yeah, that's what I thought. I mean, I knew they were apps. I wasn't sure if they were also websites as well. It's been a long time for me. I was dating way before there was any such thing as Yeah. Any of this.

I remember when Tinder came out. I actually remember like the day Tinder came out and I was dating and we were all like, oh, this isn't going to last. And look at it now. We have so many apps.

Right? Right. Okay. One last question. And I just saw this on Instagram with another dating coach and it blew up. So I know that there's a lot of controversy over this. Um, should women expect to pay 50/50 on the first date, especially off of like a dating app?

So this is a really, really interesting question, isn't it? And personally, I think there's so much here in terms of just your own standards and your values and what you are looking for. I don't really think there's a right or wrong answer, so I'm, I'm not being controversial.

That's the controversy.

Right.

Yeah.

Um, so a lot of it's gonna depend on your own standards and preferences. Honestly, and this is just myself, I, I was someone who used to really expect the guy to pay, and it would mean a lot to me if, if they didn't, and I would make it mean things, and there'd be a whole narrative. So for me, it was actually healthier to move towards a 50/50 split on the first date. And, and what I liked about that is it goes along with the slow build. It goes along with, hey, we're just 2 people getting to know each other. There's zero expectations. Now, if we're talking second date, third date, I think there's some investment there, and I would like to know that you're willing to invest in the connection.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but that's That's, that's me. I'm sure everyone's different.

No, that makes a lot of sense. I just wanted to hear your opinion.

What's your opinion? I need to know your opinion.

Um, you know, I think that whoever asks should be the one to pay. And so, you know, if I know the dating apps are a little different because they're a little more mutual, but I would say whoever initially asks should be the one to pay.

Yes. And here's what I love. How about just encouraging the discussion and coming to a mutual agreement?

Right?

How beautiful if you can have a discussion about it and come to an agreement and it feels good. Like, that's a great indication of secure attachment just to be able to talk about it, right?

I love that one. That one is beautiful. Yes. Upfront. Yes.

Beautiful.

So There's hope. There's hope for a woman to get off that dating roller coaster. There's hope for a woman to move from anxious attachment to secure or avoidant or disorganized to secure attachment, right?

There's so much hope. And it's just what, what I think is so beautiful is when we can take our energy back for ourselves and we can reconnect to our purpose and we're not spending all this energy in our romantic life and feeling exhausted. Like, how beautiful to reclaim your energy, and then you get to show up as your best self and go out into the world and connect to your purpose and give to your friends and your family, and just to have that energy back and really use it for yourself and the world in a meaningful way while maintaining secure attachment. So you get to have both.

I love that. Thank you so much, Dr. Morgan, for coming on. For writing your book. I have to put it up, Love Magnet. Um, really great. I just finished it. I suggest it for anyone, um, on, you know, the dating journey, or if you know someone who's on the dating journey, it could make a great gift. How can people get a hold of you?

So the best way is on Instagram. You can find me there. It's @drmorgancoaching. I also have a podcast called Let's Get Vulnerable. And then I am on YouTube, TikTok, Twitter, all the things. But the best place is Instagram. And then the book is on Amazon, so you can just Google Love Magnet. It is not the lesbian love story because there's a lesbian love story under Love Magnet.

Good to know.

So it's not that one. It's the one with me on the COVID Right. But yeah, it's on Amazon. So thank you so much for having me. I loved our conversation. Thank you.

You're welcome. Thank you for coming on. Have a great day.