How Do You Know When it's Safe to be Vulnerable?

This is not a podcast about being broken, although you may have been. This is a podcast about strength for women who find themselves in difficult relationships, including that sometimes difficult one with yourself. We'll look at your relationship through a lens of psychology, faith, and a little dash of my own kind of feminism. We're not fixing them, we're fixing you, and that changes everything. Welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. Save yourself, heal your relationships. Listen in. Hey there, welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. I'm your host, Dr. Zoe, and I'm so glad that you're here today. Today we're going to talk about vulnerability. How do you know when it's safe to be vulnerable in a relationship with my guest Jason Van Ruler? But first, I have some great news for you guys. If you've been hoping that I would provide a transcript of the podcast. They are now available for all of my newest podcast episodes, and I believe it even goes back, in the Apple Podcast app. So Apple is now automatically generating transcripts for creators. Thanks, Apple, for making my podcast more accessible. If you see any transcript that doesn't seem right, let me know and I can share that feedback with Apple Podcasts. But enjoy! Now you can read and listen to the podcast. So my win and my fail before we get to this episode. My win is that this episode we recorded, oh my goodness, probably over last summer, and I lost the audio for it. And so when I was ready to do the edits and put it out, I could not find it anywhere. I reached out to Jason, and we've been trying to figure out another time to do a re-record of the interview. And guess what? I'm cleaning out my desktop, and guess what popped up? This episode, so I'm putting it out now. We talk about dates and his book coming out and things like that. So you're gonna have to kind of ignore that because his book is out and it's doing well and you can get it. So don't be confused. His book is already out and very easy to get on all the platforms. And his book is called Get Over Your Past. So my win is that I found the episode and Jason and I don't have to waste anybody's time re-recording it. I love Jason. He's just so great to talk to. He's a phenomenal therapist, and I think you guys are going. I love the interview. So that's my win. I found it. Yay! And I haven't even told Jason yet, so I need to let him know. And the fail— oh my goodness. Okay, so I have a back injury of sorts that I've got to figure out what's going on. It's been going on for a number of weeks. Usually— okay, so I work out a lot. I work out hard. I will be 50 next year, and I don't work out like an almost 50-year-old. And people have told me, you need to start working out like you're 50 instead of working out like you're 20. And I tell them, Some really nasty things in my head that I won't repeat, and so there may be some truth to that. But here's what I think: as long as there are people in their 60s, 70s, 80s, and I see them because we have access to people all over the world on the internet doing some really phenomenal things with their body, I'm going to keep doing really hard things with my body. And so I still train as if I were much younger than I am, and what that means is that I tend to get injuries. So I'm not going to stop training like this, but I do recognize I have to do some. Different things to care for myself because this back injury, it's continuing. So I will be getting in with my chiropractor and probably my doctor to figure out what I need to do to fix this thing because what I do refuse to do is to stop working out at a high intense level. And I'm sure you guys are going to send me some emails about that one. So that's my fail. But on to the most important thing is this interview. So today Jason and I talked about vulnerability and we had a kind of a meandering conversation until we got there. But stick So stick through because he's got some really great nuggets. And if you're like most people, we struggle to figure out how do we take care of ourselves? How do we be vulnerable and open in a relationship and yet also care for ourselves at the same time, right? So listen in with Jason Van Ruler. Oh, let me tell you about him. Jason Van Ruler is a licensed psychotherapist and author, speaker, and coach. He's determined to help you grow your relationship, become a stronger leader, and own your past. to drive a better future. He has a great book out, which I already talked about, called Get Past Your Past: How Facing Your Broken Places Leads to True Connection. Listen in. Jason, I have been looking forward to this interview. A couple of reasons. I rarely have men on my podcast, so the majority of my audience is women. And I've had— I think I can count on 5 fingers how many men I've had. You might be 3, 4 over the past 5 years. So I'm always excited to have a man on. Welcome.

Yeah. Well, I'm honored to be on just for a lot of reasons too, but, but I'm— that's a great, great place to be as I'm one of the 5. This is a big deal. Today's a big day.

It's a big day. Yes. I only bring men on when I know you have something really, really beneficial for my audience. And you do. I've read your book. I'm excited about it. I'm looking forward to it coming out in a couple of months. I think I talked about it in the intro, but it's called Get Past Your Past. How Facing Your Broken Places Leads to True Connection. I like that, um, the subtitle, because it kind of goes with my podcast, Stronger in Difficult Places. So I love it.

Yeah, I think, um, I think the book was just really needed right now. I feel like, uh, it's a book for a lot of people going through kind of the same thing. Um, and so my hope was just to kind of speak to like, what do you do in that spot? Kind of like your podcast, like, well, what do I do if I feel that way?

Right, right. So today I want to talk about a couple of things. You talked a little bit about vulnerability and like how to know when it's safe to be vulnerable. And I think that's so very important, especially when we have past issues. And I've been doing a deep dive into shame this year as my book about shame is coming out next year. And so I feel like those really tie together because when we have a difficult past, we often have shame. And when we have shame, we often have a very difficult time Knowing how to talk about it and knowing who to talk to. So first, can you give us just a little bit for people who haven't obviously read your book? It's not quite out yet. Tell us about your journey to writing on this topic.

Yeah, well, it's one that's taken a very long time. I think for me, I came from a broken home as a kid and just experienced a lot of stuff. That you shouldn't experience as a kid. And so there was abuse and addiction and trauma. And I came out of that and I just said, I'm never going to do that. That will never be my life. Right? So now you're fixed. So I'm swearing all of that off. Yeah, I'm going to be a different person. I made a declaration. Now it's official. And, you know, so that was just a wonderful thing to want. But the problem is I really didn't know how to do it differently. And so before too long, I found myself in a lot of the same behaviors and patterns that I had witnessed. and actually had sworn off. And, and so for me, um, I just kind of came to this moment where I was really at the bottom, um, and I just realized like I could spend the rest of my life running if I wanted to, or I could face it. Uh, the challenge was I had no idea what that meant.

Yeah.

Right? Like I, I knew I was exhausted. I knew I didn't wanna run, but I also had no clue how to face it. And so that journey of kind of learning actually helped me out a lot, but it also brought me to where I'm at today as a therapist. I tell people being a therapist for me has in some ways been a selfish pursuit because I just keep wanting to know how to do it well.

Yes, I love that. And we both have similar stories in that way. You share yours in your book. I share mine in my book. And also, just for those listening, I wanted you to know that I know Jason from Instagram, that we have been following each other. And I think I've been on one of your lives. And I've watched kind of your progression, and you have a really phenomenal page, Instagram page. For— so for those who are on Instagram, and if you're interested in just really good, sound relational help, wisdom, skills, you do a fantastic job of these bite-sized videos every single day just about relationships. And I love it. I know that it's really helping so many people.

Yeah, well, thank you. And I always think it's funny because I talk about social media and I say, you know, it's really hard to find authentic connection. And then here we are. It's like, yeah, well, we connected on social media. So it does happen. It does happen. Just not always.

It does. That's true. So can you tell us a little bit about some of the steps that you have in your book about getting over that past? I know you talked about rediscovering your control, overcoming your circumstances, and embracing the connection. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Yeah. So, so where it really starts is, is really owning what has happened and being honest about that. I think we all tell ourselves different stories about things, and sometimes those stories are really true and sometimes they're not. And so I think the starting point is really to get honest with ourselves about kind of what's happened that's led us here and where we're at now. And that's really a hard thing to do sometimes, but it is a thing that, that we can do on our own. So the good news is If you're listening today and you said, well, where do I start? What do I do? The first thing is to kind of take an assessment of where am I actually at? And if I were to have imagined where I'd be at this moment in my life, is this where I would have wanted to be?

Such a good point.

And if not, why not, right? If I'm missing that, what is it that's missing? And what do I suspect is my role in that? So that's kind of where we start is in that space of just Being really honest with ourselves about what's working and what isn't.

Do you think people have to hit a rock bottom of sorts in order to get to a place where they're ready to look at that? Or do you think people can do that when their life is like, it's okay, it could be a little better?

Yeah, well, I don't know if it makes for as good of a book if you don't wait till rock bottom. But I think, man, I would have loved to have done it sooner. I think that's the challenge. And we do this with kids where we say, hey, I want to save you some steps and tell you. And kids, we're all kids. We all said, yep, whatever you say. I'm not listening to anything. And then you do it and you're like, oh, I kind of wish I'd listened. So, I don't know if we always have to get to the rock bottom, but I think we do have to get to a place of willingness. And I think that that's different for everybody. Some people are really good at saying it's gone far enough. And then some other people who are maybe wired more like me say, well, It's gone, it's gone far enough, but it could probably go farther. So, so let's just embrace this a little more. So, so I think there's a spectrum there, but goodness, if we could, if we could do this before we got to that place, um, we save ourselves a lot of heartache and pain.

Yeah. You know, somebody wise said that wisdom is gained in one of two ways, either learning from somebody else's mistakes or making your own. Right.

Yeah.

It's always better to learn from other people's mistakes, but I think it takes a little bit of wisdom already to be able to do that. A lot of people sometimes may be in a situation where, okay, it's not horrible. They're not rock bottom, but they're not really happy. Right. There are things that they are allowing in their life. There's their past that they haven't been willing or able to get over that's sabotaging some things in their life. And yet they, they're scared because they don't know what to do about it. Or the fear is the work, right? And I mean, I think for me, one of the things that I always like to encourage people to think about is, if the work weren't so hard, if it was possible, what kind of person or what kind of life would you want to live right now? And I think that can help people to recognize that, okay, this isn't really the way that I want to live, or I am allowing my past to sabotage my current— my present. If you can Imagine that. And then the question is, okay, so, so what's the work to do to get there?

Yeah, I love that. And, and, you know, what's interesting is people often know, right? It's not usually that they need to think too much. They're usually pretty quickly able to say, well, this is what I need to do. And, and I think too, what I'd say is, um, and you probably see this too, I work with a lot of people who feel like they need to apologize for not being bad enough, right? So we kind of get to that place.

Yes.

Where, uh, maybe it's not how we want it to be. Maybe we don't feel like we think we ought to, or our relationship isn't where we want it. Um, but it's not bad enough, right? It's not bad enough to really do anything about. And so we kind of do this thing where we don't actually tend to it, uh, because it hasn't gotten bad enough. And I just say like, and the best time to do the work is when it's going pretty well, but could be better.

Yeah.

That's actually because then we're not being reactive. We're not doing the survival mode thing. Like we can actually build something. But I think a lot of us miss that because we feel like we have to qualify the need for help.

Right. And part of that also, I think, is honoring that you matter. You don't have to wait until you need to go to the hospital to get treatment. You matter enough that you can care for yourself every single day. And I think especially for women, sometimes that's hard because we kind of put ourselves on the back burner and we're taking care of so many other people and we don't always acknowledge that It doesn't have to be an emergency to take care of us.

Right. And we can actually prevent some of those emergencies by doing that. But I do echo what you're saying, and I don't get it as a guy, but I do get for women, it is difficult to sit in that spot, right? It's difficult because I know even when I work with female clients and I just say, hey, what if you did this? It's like, well, I'm 5th, 6th, 7th on the list, Jason. This isn't— I'm not just sitting around thinking, what do I need to do today for me?

Yeah.

That's not what's happening. It's a ways down. And yet if we don't do it, what is the cost?

So for someone who's like, okay, I buy in, I see, I'm, you know, I'm, I may be allowing my past to sabotage me, or maybe there, there are ways that I've not gotten over my past. How do we start doing that?

Yeah. So I think we have to look at what our takeaway from that was. So what, what did that teach me about myself and others? So if I went through this experience, Um, what was the message that I took from that? Is that message a positive one, negative one, one that empowers me? Um, and if it's not, is it time to change that? Right? Because oftentimes these things we've experienced, we didn't have choice in the matter. It just happened to us. And so what we do if we're not careful is we internalize that and make that about us instead of about the circumstance.

Right.

And so what I'm trying to help people to do is to say, like, you get to change that story anytime you want. And we can change that to a story that honors us and empowers us, or we can change into one that holds us back.

And first, you have to know what that story is, because I think a lot of times we carry these stories kind of subconsciously, and we're not even aware that we're telling ourselves the story and reinforcing it every single day. And so you have to know, what is that thing that I tell myself when I feel really frustrated? What is that thing? What is that story I tell myself when I'm angry at my spouse or when I feel hurt? Those are the things that really drive your behavior, and they drive your sense of well-being as well. And so I think it's important first figure out what the story is, and then you got to figure out, okay, how can I change it? Can I test it even, right? For— let's reality test this thing.

Yeah. And whose voice is that in? So if I continue to hear the same story, is that my voice talking? Is that somebody else's voice? And is there a chance that things have changed? Because the thing is, those stories should change over time.

They should.

And so if I'm still telling myself the story from when I was 8 years old, how does it serve me today?

I think that is so powerful. And I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that in the way that you did, that those stories should change. Because those stories we told ourselves when we were little, they were protective in some ways, right? And so they were good and they were protective. And we think that because they worked then, That they should keep working. But just like you outgrew those clothes, you're not wearing the same clothes when you were 8 years old, even though they work.

I actually am. I haven't grown at all. This is— these are my 8-year-old clothes. Yes.

Wow. You must have been a huge 8-year-old.

I was pretty big. I was pretty big.

For most of us, we're not still wearing those 8-year-old clothes. And so we can't still expect that those stories are going to work for us, but we can honor that they did at one time. And now we have to look at what are the new stories that we need to create? What are the new realities about our situation? Yeah.

Yeah. Because we think about, I mean, as parents, if we're going to talk to our kids about something challenging, we tell them an age-appropriate story. And, and that, that changes over time. And over time, they get a deeper understanding and new perspective. And so I think we need to do the same thing is, um, we need to realize that the story that we might be repeating was an age-appropriate story. It was age-appropriate feelings and understandings of things. But now that we are older and have some perspective, we might see it very differently.

That makes so much sense. And so if we're able to develop a new story and we're able to honor some of the things that happened to us in the past, the next thing you talk about is connection. And so as I think about connection, I think about talking, I think about sharing, right, with people. And so can we talk about The whole concept of shame. I mean, shame is my, is my deal. But in the shame that you have about your past, being able to share and be vulnerable, because vulnerability, I don't believe, is the antidote to shame. I don't even believe that other people's compassion is the antidote to most shame, like Brené Brown talks about. It's a good step, though, and it's an important step. And so how can we know when it's healthy to be vulnerable? What are those characteristics of a person that's safe to go to and talk to about maybe our past or our shame?

Yeah, I just tell anyone who will listen and see what happens. That's what I do is I just, I just find anyone. No, I mean, but the challenge is, I think— You are brave. I'm very brave, if you want to call it that. Um, I think the challenge though is like sometimes if we're not used to sharing, yeah, it's kind of this all-or-nothing proposition. Right. And so, and so what we do is we, we let it build until we just have to say something, and then we just sort of pick the first person we see.

And so

the challenge— yeah, so the challenge with that is like sometimes we pick correctly, and sometimes we pick the, the person who's not willing or able or available, and we get rejected. And we use that to tell ourselves, see, that's why I don't do this.

Exactly. Yeah. And sometimes I think we even repeat, repeat patterns by Maybe not purposely, subconsciously finding someone who's going to reject us and then doing the blurt and getting the—

No, that could never happen. And we never do it romantically. We never find that same person and have the same— but, but we do. I mean, joking aside, and, and it is, it can be very painful. And so if we want to change what, what we learn to do is incrementally let people in, um, and, and let them earn their seat at the table. Uh, because that is a small table and not everyone gets a seat there. And that's okay. That's because we're beautiful and special. And so it shouldn't be for everybody. And, and so one of the best ways we can kind of honor and value ourselves is by saying we need to qualify our vulnerability. Um, that's just not going to be all the time everywhere.

That makes a lot of sense. And, you know, as you were talking, Jason, I was just thinking about your book. I was thinking about my book. And often, and even on our Instagram, you know, as we share things, I think people can sometimes get a wrong impression that when they read about things that are very vulnerable for us to talk about, and they would imagine would be very vulnerable for them to talk about, they think that we are telling everything. Yeah. And I imagine, I don't know what's in your head and your life, but I imagine that although you're very vulnerable in your book, You were still also safe for yourself, and you didn't tell everything. You told enough that was accurate to be able to help the person that's reading. And I think that's important too. As I'm writing my book, I'm very vulnerable, but there are still things that I don't share because it's not necessary and maybe not safe.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think for me, the purpose of the book was to be vulnerable for others. Right? And so I kind of approach it as I will be vulnerable as long as it's in the spirit of being helpful other people.

Yes.

Um, but there are people in my life where I'm vulnerable just because I need it, right? I'm like, hey, I'm gonna tell you what I ate for breakfast yesterday, and I'm gonna walk you through all this stuff, uh, because I really need that. So to your point, we have to be a little careful because, um, we might not have the whole story, and, uh, and we shouldn't. And that's actually like just really good boundaries and health. Um, but when people do some of this sharing stuff, um, that it's going to be a different story for different people. And some people are going to get a lot longer version and some a shorter one.

Right. So it's kind of like the thing that Brené Brown talks about. People have to earn the right to your story. Yeah.

Yeah. Because otherwise we can get really hurt. Right. Because as much as it stinks, not everyone is as invested in us as we are. And so when we give someone who's not qualified everything, they're not going to honor it the way they ought to. And that's not necessarily because they want to hurt us, but because they're not as invested. And so we can get into this habit of kind of determining we need to say something, telling the wrong person, and then having it go really badly and then recoiling and not doing it again. And so that's what I want to prevent.

Yes. When you were talking about, like, I don't know exactly the words that you used, but kind of giving a little bit. When I talk to women, especially when we're talking about whether it's a female-female relationship, like a friendship, and trying to learn how to be a good friend, or whether it's a romantic relationship, one of the ways that we slowly develop true intimacy is by you share a little and then you wait, right?

Mm-hmm.

And whether it's waiting 10 minutes or waiting days, it's this give and take in a relationship. And if the other person shares a little, okay, then you guys are kind of on that same path or same place. And then you share more and they share more. And if the relationship Um, is, what's the word? It's like prime for vulnerability. Then both of you guys will slowly get to that point, but you can kind of test it by you share a little. If they don't share a little, then that kind of tells you where you guys are and you're not gonna go past that point. Right. It's when one person is sharing everything and the other person is kind of not, that relationships can be imbalanced and you run the risk of being hurt.

Yeah. And it's not even necessarily if they wanna hurt you, they just might not be there. Um, so, you know, you can't see, but actually I have a whiteboard the other side of the camera, and I do this all the time with clients, but I draw a bullseye. Uh, and so, uh, in the center of the bullseye are the people who get everything.

Yes.

They get all of it.

Inner circle.

Yeah. Yeah. And then we work out. Right. And so we test vulnerability going from out to in, not in to out.

Mm.

But that's hard, right?

What do you mean by that? Going out to in versus in to out?

Yeah. So we, we start small and safe and we work to the bullseye.

Right.

Um, and we recognize that if we're writing names in the bullseye, there are only a few that fit.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And that's for good reason. Um, and so we just kind of say like, yeah, you might be like a, a ring number 1 person. You might be ring 2, you might be ring 3, but we incrementally work up to that, which is what I love about what you're saying is I agree with that. Um, and so if they reciprocate, like, that's amazing. If they don't, well, then we know.

Right. Yeah. So on this whole vein of vulnerability, is there anything else that you can think of that you would share with the audience regarding safety or just how to do it well?

Yeah, I think to value yourself, even if you don't feel that you have value. So, so the thing is, is that I think where we get in trouble is, is we discount our worth. And then we feel like we can just throw that out there to anyone because it's It doesn't really matter. There's not a lot of worth to that. And, and so what I would tell you is like, as you work through this, um, sometimes we, we do need to act as though we have value, even if our feelings haven't caught up yet, because we do. Um, and so the more that we act as though we have value, others see that and accept that.

Right.

Um, and so a lot of times what's gonna happen is people are gonna look to us to kind of dictate how we see ourselves. Um, and then they're gonna meet us there. And so as we look at vulnerability, um, we need to lead with feeling like we have something to share and some worth. Um, and that can be a thing that takes a lot of work to get to, but we just want to start off with, with the belief that even if I'm not there now, I'm going to get to this realization that I value. And so I need to act accordingly.

I love that. I was working with a couple just this morning and he was feeling like in my marriage, My feelings don't matter at all. And as I continued to work with them this morning, it actually is true. They don't matter to his wife. And for reasons that I'm not going to discuss, um, we were able to vet that story he was telling himself. And unfortunately, the story was true. Yeah. And so then we had to have a whole discussion of, okay, so You said, like, what if you don't feel like, you know, whatever's going on with you matters? And my thing is, but sometimes people give you that, that information that it doesn't matter to, to them. And so when that is the case, because that happens to all of us, I think, from time to time, is that we put ourselves out there and our people or someone tells us that what you feel doesn't matter. And then that's the time when you've got to really work on yourself and recognize that Your feelings matter. Like, you matter. You have worth, and your feelings matter regardless of whether your spouse thinks so or will validate that for you or has the capacity in that moment or in this time in your relationship to do that. And figuring out how you can do that, maybe reaching out to safer people that will validate that. But I love that you said that, that you have to recognize your worth because sometimes even the people in your life are telling you that. It doesn't matter.

Yeah. And that's the worst, especially if we grew up in an environment like that, because it's so hard not to feel that way.

Yes.

Um, and yet more often than not, it's, it's about them, not you.

Mm-hmm.

Right. And, and so, um, that, that is just a thing where not everyone is gonna see everyone else the same. They're not gonna value everyone the same, um, or value your story. And so a lot of times it's just you're, you're in the wrong room. And we need to find a new room. Uh, but your value isn't up for discussion. That, that's the thing I would say is just like, that's a non-negotiable.

I love that. Your value isn't up for discussion. I, I love that saying. Beautiful. So Get Past Your Past. Tell us when it comes out, how people can find it, and is there anything else you wanna share with people about your book?

Yeah. Yep. So it comes out October 10th, and you can buy it at any major bookseller. You can find more information about it on my website, jasonvr.com. I think the other thing that I would just add is, you know, I think when we talk to kids, you know, we always tell them, you know, you can always get past stuff. You can be anything you want to be. You have potential. You can do all this stuff. But at some point in our life, it seems like that stops being true.

Yeah.

Right? Like that, that's true for kids, but you're too broken, you're too much, you're too little. Like there's this thing that happens somewhere along the line where, where that no longer applies. And, and so I would just tell people, like, I wrote the book because I think it still does apply. I think at any point you still can, um, but I don't know that it's always been clear how to do it. And so that's why I wrote a book based on clinical experience and psychology but in a really accessible package that just says like, here's actually what you do. Like, if you wanted to do this, like, I think you can, and here's what you could do. Um, and so someone's listening and they're like, I just feel like I keep repeating the same stuff, or I'm stuck, um, or I'm hurting. Like, this might be the on-ramp you need to get to that new place.

That's fantastic. Thank you, Jason, for sharing your story and your book. Thank you for being vulnerable and for talking about how to be vulnerably— vulnerable safely and working on getting over your past, because we all have one. I mean, we do, and nobody has a crystal clear one. There's— everybody has something. And so I think that this book is for so many people who are struggling with figuring out how to get over it. So can you give, uh, my listeners one last word of encouragement on, um, yeah, just, just getting over their past?

Yeah. Yeah. I think you're worth it. And I think you might not know it and you might try to tell me all the reasons you disagree. And I just say respectfully, you still are. And if someone hasn't told you that, I'm sorry, but it's still true. You're worth the investment. And so, do that. And so, dream about what life would look like if you did, if you invested in yourself.

I love that. Thank you so much, Jason.

Yeah. Thanks. This is wonderful. Always good to talk.

Thank you for listening to Stronger in the Difficult Places. Please hit that follow or subscribe button so you don't miss an episode and share and review to help others find me too. If you haven't already, go to drzoeshaw.com to sign up for my newsletters to get freebies, quizzes, and encouragement that will help you strengthen your relationships. Connect with me throughout the week on Instagram. I love hearing from you all. Until next time, have a strong week.