How Our Early Experiences Determine The Quality of Our Relationships

This is not a podcast about being broken, although you may have been. This is a podcast about strength for women who find themselves in difficult relationships, including that sometimes difficult one with yourself. We'll look at your relationship through a lens of psychology, faith, and a little dash of my own kind of feminism. We're not fixing them. We're fixing you. And that changes everything. Welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. Save yourself, heal your relationships. Listen in. Hey, my friend. Welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. I'm your host, Dr. Zoe. And today we have a guest. Her name is Charisse Cook. She's an attachment-based psychotherapist with over 18 years of professional experience. She works in private practice in London and is also an online educator through social media, Where she shares effective tools and strategies that we can all adopt to develop healthy relationships, stable ones, and authentic bonds with people around us. She has an amazing platform on Instagram of over 114K followers. And today we're gonna talk about understanding how early childhood experiences affect your relationships and your attachment and what to do when you're disappointed in relationships. Charisse is also author of The Attachment Solution, and I'm excited to talk to her. But as always, first up, my win and my fail. So I think we're 2 weeks into this podcast since I've taken such a long break. So my win is that I am back in the groove and so excited to be showing up for you guys every week. My win is also I just came off of a wonderful retreat with Hope Writers. I am a coach for Hope Writers and I absolutely love this organization. If you are a writer and you want to write a book or you're in the midst of writing your first book, you should connect with me because Hope Writers is a phenomenal community But I just came off of a writing retreat that I co-led, and it was just such a wonderful experience. We were in Charleston, South Carolina, and it was beautiful there. And just having the experience of pouring into and connecting with other writers, it's so life-giving. So that is my win, that number one, I have a life where I get to do that. And number two, I love just seeing other writers win and succeed in their writing process. And also my win is I'm navigating this new season of my life really well now. And even just adjusting to, you know, finding childcare for my 11-year-old, which is way different than childcare for younger kids. But I've learned how to adjust my schedule, my working schedule, such that I can just do all the things and juggle all the balls. And the same is going with my traveling schedule. So that's a real win for me. And for any of you other single moms out there, Single mamas out there, you know what I'm talking about—balancing it all. My fail. Oh my goodness, guys! I left my makeup bag, and I don't think guys can understand. Well, I know guys can't understand this. Traveled to South Carolina. I was told that I would be filming the next day, so traveled to South Carolina, took a red-eye, got to the airport, got to the hotel. I was planning to take a nap for an hour or two before I had to get up and do some filming, and found. out that I left my makeup bag at the airport. And that's a whole thing for a woman, especially knowing you have to go on camera. And a friend of mine said, well, do you really need your makeup? This was a guy, by the way, of course. You should already know that from that question. And my answer was, yes! So I had to decide, do I want to pay a $40 Uber to go back to the airport, another $40 to go the other way, or do I want to just try to find more makeup? But as a brown-skinned woman, You know, just finding more makeup randomly is not that easy, but I was able to find an Ulta within walking distance of my hotel. And I went in there and within, it took a while because I had to look and, you know, trying to replace everything is a lot. It was way more expensive than my Uber drive, but I had all new makeup. I found the perfect shades, you guys, I did it. I found a perfect shade. It worked out. But my fail is I wasn't paying attention, left all of my makeup in an airport in South Carolina. It's funny because even when I came back home, I found myself thinking about my makeup going, I wonder where she is. She's sitting still in a South Carolina airport because I didn't end up getting it when I went back to leave out. So my fail, it happens. I have to pay better attention. Okay, on to more important things than me losing my makeup. I'm so excited for this interview with Charisse Cook. Attachment Is such an important topic when it comes to relationship because it really does set the foundation for how we interact with our people. So listen in, Charisse Cook on attachment. Welcome to the podcast, Charisse. I'm so excited that you are able to join all the way from London.

That's right. I'm actually just outside London in Richmond.

Oh my goodness. What time is it there?

Um, it is 8 minutes past 5 in the evening.

Okay. Because it is 8 minutes past 9 in the morning here.

Oh my word. Good morning.

Yes. Good evening. So good to have you on. So you have become a wonderful space on the internet talking about attachment, and you have a new book coming out that we're going to talk about. But I would like to just dive into some of that for my listeners because Many of them are in difficult relationships and are disappointed, feeling that sense of disappointment in their relationship. Their relationship is not what they wished it would be. And I'm wondering if shedding some light on some attachment theory would be helpful.

Definitely, I think so. I mean, relationships are very complicated because as humans we are so complicated, and it's so easy, I think, to get lost about what to do, where to go, what's right, what's wrong, am I being unreasonable? And so understanding our own attachment styles and also those of the people we love, and then how we interact with each other coming from our attachment styles, can be really helpful to find a way out into something that's healthier and happier. So yeah, attachment is a great place to start for those of us who are confused in love.

Yes, I think so too. So tell me a little bit about the styles, and then maybe we'll land a little bit about that on that anxious avoidant style, which I found in my practice, especially with independent women, seems to be one of the, the kind of combos that I'm seeing a lot. We'll talk a little bit more about that.

Oh, I love that because I'm seeing that too. You know, the ladies are being really strong now. Yeah.

Yeah,

well, as I'm sure you know, there are 4 attachment styles. The first one is secure attachment, which is what I guess we're all aspiring to be,

right?

And a lot of us can be secure a lot of the time, which is just where we feel worthy of love, we accept love, we feel that we can go to our partners, we have no problem asking for help, and we have no problems giving help. You know, there's a natural to and fro in relationships that we are really comfortable with. And We can communicate and we don't get too overwrought or overemotional. You know, we're secure. It's, it's, it's a great place to be.

It feels comfortable. And then there are— and there's— Yes,

that's— I think that's such a great point, actually. Yeah, we feel really comfortable and our bodies are relaxed and stress-free in our relationships. Obviously, we have problems, stuff goes wrong. But ultimately, Relationships are not a source of stress in and of themselves if we are secure. Whereas if we are insecurely attached, relationships can be extremely stressful. And we can respond to that stress by either being quite anxious in our relationships, and we become anxiously attached. And so we become preoccupied with the relationship, and we're worried that we're not getting the love we want. And we feel disappointed a lot. We can also overfunction and be codependent in our relationships. There's a lot of work. Relationships mean work. When we're anxiously attached, we've kind of got to work to be loved. And that's part of our sad story. So there's an anxious attachment. And then there's also avoidance attachment, whereby we respond to stress by distancing behaviors, we kind of take a step back in relationships, don't really want to be going too much into talking about emotions. Intimacy, very challenging for us, we like to avoid intimacy, we avoid the responsibilities of relationships. Mm-hmm. But interestingly, and I talk about this a lot in the book, because it's very not spoken about enough, which is there are 2 kinds of avoidant attachment. There's dismissive avoidant attachment, where we bring in distancing behaviors, and we create distance by being sarcastic, being unkind, being dismissive in nature. We kind of can put our partners down. We can, we sort of go into the one-up position thinking we're a bit better than other people. And again, that's a big big defense. So there's a lot of—

And ignoring our partner's needs as well.

There's ignoring our partner's needs, and also not being very keen on emotions. So we're quite emotionally shut down. Whereas the anxiously attached people can be full of emotions, the avoidantly attached is kind of numbed out. And so bringing emotions can be, again, you know, there's that dismissiveness, why stop being so emotional? Right? So that's a, that's a very big big part of it. And then in fearful avoidant attachment, which is another kind of avoidant attachment style, it's a little bit of both. There's a bit of anxiety, and there's a lot of avoidance. And this, this attachment style is a little bit more chaotic. There's a lot more of sort of addictive relationships, makeups and breakups, drama, high conflict. That's been in the sort of fearful avoidant range, because We're sort of accustomed, we come from quite big dysfunction in our family of origin. So we are accustomed to drama and chaos and dysfunction, it's sort of normalized for us. And we bring that into our relationships. And we're quite scared of relationships, but we want them at the same time. So this is push pull, push pull, but ultimately, we're quite avoidant. So very briefly, those are the various ways that we can, we can relate to one another.

Cool. Yeah. Wow. And when you talk about this push pull, I'm seeing that that seems to be, especially for my couples as well, what happens so often. The anxious person comes together with the avoidant person, right? And they make this kind of codependent soup that is bitter. It's not good.

No.

So what can you do? I mean, what can you say to a woman who may start to recognize, oh, I think I might be in that anxious attachment style? I'm very much, I feel that anxiety. I'm very, you know, kind of needy and pulley and worried about my partner and my relationship. And I always feel that sense of fear and imbalance. Or I, or like I said, a lot of my very accomplished, independent, successful clients, women tend to be very confused when they're dating about why they can't seem to connect well with other men. And a lot of what I'm seeing is that avoidant. It's just that kind of that distance that they don't even know that they're creating that sends a message of, I'm not somebody that you can really connect with.

Yeah. Well, it's so great that you ask that about both the different styles in a way, because I'm always very keen to point out to my clients that we're sort of all the ways of attaching. Sometimes we can be anxious, sometimes we can be avoidant. And we like to sort of label ourselves, and we certainly like to label others.

Yeah.

But actually, we display all of this behavior because they're all just defenses, all ways of coping. And we'll take whatever we can, because we'll have experience of both. You know, often if we are anxiously attached, it's because we had an abandoning partner, or parent, or member of the family or a previous partner. And so we have experience of both, and we have the capacity to be both. Something I noticed with my clients is, is that sometimes they can be be very anxious in a relationship, and that relationship ends. And there's this sort of hardening. And then in their next relationship, they're like, that's not happening to me again. And they become the avoidant one.

Yeah.

So it's sort of great to, to recognize, listen, this is ways of relating that is insecure in nature. And we can do all these different kinds of behaviors. But what I say to people, I think whether you're anxious or avoidant, I think the first thing that we need to recognize is we cannot trust what we think.

Ooh, let's talk more about that.

Well, when,

when, yes,

yeah, because when we're anxiously attached, we can be quite catastrophizing in how we're thinking, you know, we're very skewed to the negative. You know, wherever we come from, our previous experiences, be they childhood or previous relationships or both, we unfortunately project negatively onto our partners and into our future. And so we're always looking for the disappointment or the wrong thing or being hurt or not our needs not quite being met. And so we think a lot of thoughts that increase our anxiety and then just exacerbate issues. Conversely, when we're avoidant or in an avoidant process, we're also thinking stuff that is fear-based. We're thinking this is too much, I feel overwhelmed. This isn't what I signed up for. But also there's a there's a little bit more of a judgmental aspect, I think, when we're a little bit avoidant, because we're sort of in that one-up position, whereby we're negatively judging our partners. And it's a bit like, well, they're the one with the problem, or why are they making such a big deal out of this? And I don't need to deal with that. So we're having these thoughts that feel extremely real and valid and justified, don't they? And we don't really question those thoughts. And my very first sort of intervention is, We need to begin to question these thoughts. And we can't believe everything that we think because our insecure attachment lives in our thinking.

Oh, that's so beautiful. That's so beautiful. And we've been talking about clients, but I'm okay to talk about myself because I do that in my podcast. And, you know, I am predominantly securely attached. Historically, I've had some very Um, a lot of anxious attachment in my childhood and in my early adulthood and, and relationship. And I have seen myself move back and forth between anxious and avoidant. Um, so all of that does definitely make a lot of sense in my own personal life. But as you were talking about the person who sees the relationship, the behaviors, the interactions through that lens specifically of—

Mm-hmm.

You know, maybe the avoidant person. I'm thinking about some clients who I see that and how sabotaging it is in their relationships. They're always looking for some confirmation that someone's rejecting them.

Yeah.

And it's so painful to watch because you can see that and the offense. They're often offended, right? And they tell themselves this story that this person is somehow rejecting them or Or not considering them, or they're always in that space. And I know how— I imagine, I should say, how painful it must be to always be in that space of assuming that people are doing you wrong or rejecting you.

Yeah.

And so I love that concept of, well, you can't believe what you think. And I'm thinking about the woman who might be listening to this and thinking, well, how do I— how do I know? When should I question, and when is it— Real? How do I, how do I decipher?

Hmm, I think that is really difficult because we don't always make the best choices when we're insecurely attached, do we? So we will choose people and be attracted to and find attractive people who maybe are not right for us. However, I think if we are in a relationship or we're trying to be with someone, that is a choice that we have kind of made.

Right.

So I think it's really useful to, in a way, give yourself to the choice that you have made until such a time as you have a lot of information to then choose to either continue staying or leave. Because I think that the danger is that when we're extremely anxious or we're extremely avoidant, we don't ever go all in, and we don't ever actually kind of try and give someone a proper chance. Because if we're constantly scanning the horizon, as you say, for what's, what's, what's wrong in a relationship, we will, we will find things we will find every day of our lives, we can, we can find things. And I'm a big champion for relationships take time. And we've got to create the relationships that we want by teaching one another what we want and what we need, but also taking time to get to know people. Because in a way, when we expect people to let us down, We aren't giving people a genuine chance to show us over a period of time what is on offer with them and what they are truly like as people and whether our value systems align. So I guess for me, what I often suggest is I sort of suggest a scale, like being quite practical about it. Because sometimes clients will come in and something has occurred that is unfortunate. Right. And maybe someone was late or didn't return a call or kind of whatever. But our reaction is kind of 90 out of 100.

Yes.

Yeah, I do think it's really good to get into when, particularly coming from the more anxious space, to begin to learn to moderate our emotions is vital. And that's why, you know, I talk about emotional regulation in big, big, big chunks in my book, because as long as we're thinking in this kind of survival mode, highly reactive way, we're not thinking clearly, you know, we're in fight or flight. So we're going to fight or we're going to flight. Those are our sort of options, right?

Yeah.

So we've got to learn to kind of moderate our emotions so we can assess things a bit more accurately in the here and now, as opposed to that hurt part of us that makes every little thing on a day-to-day basis a betrayal, and a non-negotiable and a reason to walk away. It's like, we need to override that fearful part of us in a way and moderate our emotions so we can think, you know what, that was a little bit out of line and I need to have a conversation about that. Or, is this person a fallible human being? Yes. And maybe I don't need to react in quite such an extreme way, and I don't have to judge them and write them off as a human for just making a mistake.

Yeah.

So it's just, I think, getting to know ourselves, moderating our emotions, and then really looking at things and working to stay in the here and now is a way that we can then get the information we need. To make the decisions that are right for us.

That's beautiful. That's beautiful. So questioning, but also allowing yourself to sit with the emotion.

Yeah.

And when you allow yourself to sit, you're giving yourself just a little bit of time, a little bit of distance, and then question your response. And, you know, I think a really good thing too to ask yourself, because as you talked about that over-response, Right? Usually when we're overresponding in that way, we have that very big response to maybe a very small infraction. It's not about that infraction, right? It's about something else, either in that relationship or a previous relationship or your history. And sometimes asking yourself, is this about this thing, or am I attaching other things to it? And sometimes— That helps give you a little bit of distance and clarity.

Definitely, because I'm— I hate this kind of, this is a story of my life. This always happens to me. People always let me down, or I can never, you know, it's kind of, these are really powerful stories that can and do become the story of our lives.

Mm-hmm.

But we can get trapped in the retelling, and we just take everything from our lives and make it that story, whether it is or not. And I think we're doing ourselves such a disservice there. We need to be open to the option for things to be different in order for things to be different. And it's amazing how our fear won't let that happen. And that's a really unconscious process to try to become more aware of.

Yes, yes, that's so true. So I'm thinking about someone who's recognizing some of these qualities in a partner. So yes, maybe they're recognizing some in themselves as well, or maybe they feel a little more securely attached, but they're starting to recognize Oh, that's what my partner does. How do we deal with that and communicate with our partners when we recognize that there may be some type of insecure attachment going on?

I mean, it is difficult because not everyone knows,

right?

And we're so kind of— some of us have self-awareness, many of us don't, and, um, we can't control other people.

Yes.

So I think, I think when we, when we do recognize it in other people, it's a really great opportunity for us to make sure that we are not going to RSVP to the unconscious invitation of coming in to that little dance, right? Because we do, and we will, and we'll be the victims of it because, you know, of what our partners made us do, etc. And, you know, sometimes it is like that. It's really, really complicated. But the more awareness we have, the more we can bring that insight into how we are going to engage with someone. And because I think it's a really sad thing that these insecure ways of attaching, they really evoke a defensive way of relating in the, in ourselves and each other. And what I often say is, is, well, that's not love. That's, that's fear.

Yeah.

And so actually, How do we stay centered in something that we believe and feels right for us that could actually be loving or embody love, or we could, we could give love a little bit more there? Because in a way, we really do have the capacity to heal one another, you know, in our relationships. Yes. We can make things worse, or we can make things better. And as long as things aren't too severe, or abusive or dysfunctional within the dynamic, if we can stay steady, And have our own sense of sort of values and being able to look after ourselves, we have a lot of power in those dynamics to see then what is possible if we stay steady, if we stay loving, but we respect ourselves, but also respect the other person. In time, the other person is going to have to respond to that one way or another.

That's true.

And we either grow together and shifts happen or we don't. And again, that's when we have the information that we need. And in time, conversations can take place that maybe aren't so defensive in nature where it's like, hey, I notice that sometimes you just shut me down when we're talking. That feels— that's really hard for me. Could we try to do something differently? And rather than it be a you, you, you situation, it can then actually be a loving conversation where they feel That it's actually constructive and it isn't something that's, um, accusatory.

That's so good. I love, well, there's so many things I love about what you just said, but one of the things I'm thinking about when I'm talking, when you were talking about stepping out of the dance or not RSVPing, because what often happens is if one person responds, then the other, you know, if one person has a behavior that's avoidant or anxious, the other person then responds and just, it amps it all up, right?

Yeah.

I had a, a conversation with someone not too long ago, and there was something that he did that bothered me. And instead of necessarily addressing how I was feeling in the moment, my question was, what was going on for you, right, when you were doing that thing?

Mm-hmm.

And it was so helpful because It just pulled down defenses. And I wasn't accusing. I wasn't even stating how I was offended. Um, and he was able to talk about what happened with him, what was going on with him internally.

Yeah.

He chose that behavior. And he thanked me for asking him that and then was able to address how I felt. And so I think that's one of the ways that we can step out of that instead of going towards it and engaging in it and saying, you did this, or why did you

do

this? Um, coming from kind of an outside observer. And you wanna do it in such a way that it's not avoidant, but that you are actually addressing the issue, but from a place of curiosity, maybe.

Hmm. I love that. That is such a— that's next level self-awareness and, and sort of relationship building there because we're sort of taking a moment to, to react, And then notice our reaction. And then, and then we can just go down the whole slippery slope, can't we, of what it means for us and about us and how dare they. And I'm not— and here it is again. And, you know, it's kind of that, that is all waiting for us. And that's sadly where most of us go. And I still go sometimes. It's very easy. But to be able to sort of really hold our sense of self in those moments and also not do ourselves down by thinking there's something wrong with me, or I need to respond or whatever. I love that. It's such a clear loving boundary of, oh my gosh, something must be up with this person because I can see by their behavior. And I actually had a similar, I'm just remembering now, experience with one of my colleagues years ago. We were on this trip and this work trip, and I was feeling really self-conscious and it was a lot and we didn't have a lot of time on our own and I really needed some time to decompress. I didn't have that. And we were at some dinner and it was all noisy and loud. I was feeling overstimulated and he was talking. He said something and I just snapped at him in like a really embarrassing way, like, rawr. And I felt so immediately so embarrassed and awful. And, you know, the dinner continued. And then later, you know, the next day I saw him and I just said, look, I'm really sorry about what I said at dinner last night.

Mm-hmm.

And he said, oh, I knew you were tired and overstimulated and you hadn't had any time together. And it was just, I felt actually like perhaps like your friend, I felt so seen and so understood that he knew me. He knew I wasn't this like horrible snappish person. He was like, well, it's okay, you're human and it happened and it's all right. And it was so nice to not go through that whole shameful like, oh God, I've behaved badly and now I've got to make up for it. Now I'm going to be demonized for it. It was just a human. It was so human. It was very loving.

That is very loving.

That is very loving.

And, you know, obviously when you've done work, it's easier to get that to that place. But still, even me and you, I'm sure, sometimes just react like you just explained.

Oh my God.

Yeah. And so we have to try to go back and double back. You know, I talk to, um, some clients sometimes about habits, right? And, and especially the habit of lying. And how to get out of that habit. And one of the ways that, that I work with people who have a habit of lying is not to try not to lie because that just doesn't really work. Yeah. But as soon as they see themselves lying, that they make a rule for themselves that they have to address it and backtrack. And so when they've lied, they have to kind of go back to the person and The quicker the better to say, oh, you know, actually, this is the way that it happened, or this is, you know, just kind of fixing the lie in some way, shape, or form. And there's 2 things that happen when we do that. When we go back to fix it, there's a little bit of discomfort, right? And can sometimes feel just, just uncomfortable, basically. And we've also kind of pinpointed it. We've, we've touched it in a way that makes us remember. And so it creates this memory. For us, both of the action and kind of the discomfort. But over time, as you continue doing that, that memory actually will stop you before the lie comes out.

Yes.

Over time. And so I feel like it's the same thing with our reactionary behavior due to our attachments, that if we can just start to notice it when it happens and then go back maybe and address it. And the more we do that over time, maybe we won't have— we'll be able to sit with it first before we have the reaction.

And I love that. Yeah, I remember having a bit of an epiphany, aha moment sort of years ago, and it was something along those lines of I'd done something wrong and behaved in a way that I didn't like. And I always bring that back with my clients. It's like, as long as you like who you are in those moments, it's okay. And then we go, Okay, let me think about that, right? Yeah. But, um, you know, there's that thing of, I don't want to feel that way. Yeah. I don't want to feel that way anymore. Oh, here, you know, and, you know, you do that enough and it's eventually, yeah, you do get to that point. Like, I can't feel like that again. I can't feel bad about myself or I can't speak to my partner in that way. That's not fair to him. Or, you know, whatever it might be, it's, it's, it's sort of learning to be accountable and take responsibility, you know, such as the emotionally or the emotional maturing process is that we reach the point where it's like, well, I just don't want to do that anymore. It doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel right for me. So, yeah, I think that's a beautiful consequence of the work.

Yes, I think that's a great way to put it. A beautiful consequence of the work. So as I'm thinking again about a woman in a relationship that may be struggling with this kind of dance, Can we talk a little bit more about other ways to get out of the dance? When, whether it's generally your style, avoidant or anxious, or your partner's style, or when you're in those moments when you're both attacking an issue from opposite points of view?

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, this is such an important subject. And I do a whole chapter on what to do with this dance. Because It is so overwhelming when we're in it. It's, I think it is deeply disturbing and painful. And we can very quickly lose our way. And one of, one of the steps that I talked about is kind of first having the awareness and kind of accepting what's really, really painful, which is our needs will trigger our partner.

Yes. Wow.

So the anxiously attached person who needs connection and reassurance and togetherness, those needs in extreme are going to trigger, you know, their avoidant partner whose needs are independence, you know, often isolation and non-communication, right? And in extreme, and then, and the more that happens, the more extreme those needs become.

Mm-hmm.

And I think something really vital about all of that is really about distinguishing and learning and maturing out of which of these needs come from my trauma, come from my pain, and come from a sort of bottomless pit, dare I say it, because there's no such thing as enough. An avoidant will never really feel like, oh, I've had enough time on my own now.

Yeah.

Or when the anxious is gonna say, I've had enough reassurance, you know, we want more, more, more, you know, that's what insecurity is.

Right.

So it's about recognizing, okay, this, this isn't going to change. So this is something for, for me to work on. I mean, it's not that it can't change, but that it won't change unless I begin to challenge it. And what are really valid needs? You know, a relationship needs communication. A relationship needs, you know, mutual respect.

Mm-hmm.

So I think it's recognizing our needs, but often our sort of trauma needs, are fundamentally triggering to the other person. So there is an invitation there when we are in distress with our partners, when we're in the dance, to recognize one of my needs is perhaps very extreme right now, and my partner is in this moment unable to meet that need. Stop looking for that and demanding it and aggravating and raging or hurting or seducing or all these things we'll do to try to get It's like, right now, that's not possible. Can't you see? You know, it's very evident when you're on the outside. It's like, stop, stop,

you

know. But, but, but, but we're in that place of like desperate need. And that's actually when we need to draw our own line and have our own boundary of, for this moment, for right now, I have to see to my needs. Because until I see to my needs, I'm not going to stop triggering this other person, and this other person is not going to stop triggering me. Which means we're in survival, which means love's not possible. Love isn't— it goes the first thing to go in survival mode. So I guess it's just recognizing those needs can't be met in that moment. They can't— it isn't that they can't ever be met.

Right.

But in moments in the dance, they can't be met. So can we be really grown up and breathe if we've chosen to be with this person and we know that they can meet our needs sometimes, Or they're a good person, we have the same values, we lead a good life together, and we are developing ways of meeting each other more and more. That takes time,

right?

When we're both triggered, how do we step away and meet our own needs? Because our needs trigger the other person, and that's where the real pain comes in for us as well, of course, because it's like, what about my needs?

Yes.

So I think just accepting that this is the hardest part.

Right.

Because in those moments, that's all we want. We want the other person to be comforting or to be really generous-spirited and give us space, whatever it might be. So that's something I sort of talk about, which is very, very difficult for people to do. But once we can do that and again, calm down and reduce our activated nervous systems, we can then begin to be, as you were saying earlier, really curious about one another.

Mm-hmm.

What is it about me when I come to you wanting to hold you and kiss you and be with you? What is it about that that sometimes feels uncomfortable? And we can, we can engage in a conversation and also share, you know, you know, maybe it's unfair for me to want so much of that from you, especially when you're going through a difficult time, but I would really appreciate it if you could just hold my hand while we watch the movie or, while we're driving? Because that would really help me feel more connected to you. You know, we can sort of try to take the intensity and the accusation and the pain out of it and begin to actually start creating something in various, very small ways to see over time what is possible. Because I work with a lot of people who are predominantly avoidant. Mm-hmm. And There are times when their avoidance is, is that they can't stomach anything. But a lot of the time, they really want to connect, and they really want to be loved, and they really want to love their partners.

Yeah.

But there's this, there's this, you know, stuckness in them that's really, really powerful. And it takes a lot to move out of that and to sort of decamp out of that. So to sort of I think for the anxiously attached people to just try to have some compassion for that is very difficult because often we feel so neglected.

Yeah.

And hurt in those spaces. But if we feel that we're with the right person and we wanna build, this is how we build. We don't build by accusing and getting angry and feeling hard done by and falling into this pattern of complaining.

Mm-hmm.

Which is unfortunately, I think, what happens a lot. We kind of need to say, okay, I'm gonna be in this for the long haul. I'm gonna give this 6 months, 12 months. These are the things that we can work on, and let's see if we can head in the right direction. Because if we can't, then I can leave knowing that I tried and I learned skills and I managed myself and I emotionally regulated and I was very adult a lot of the time. And then I can go and take those skills into my next relationship. Or you can see things are really shifting here. And actually, I think we're creating something really quite precious and beautiful. I just have to be really patient. And if I want to be patient, I can, and if I don't, I don't have to be. But I think it's about really stepping out of the dance, I guess. That's what I'm saying is like, what are the ways in which we can step out of the dance? Because when we're in the dance, there's only the dance that we can do. There isn't anything else.

Right. That is so Beautiful and informative. That's a wonderful way of helping someone step out of the dance. And the reality is, is that any practice, just like any exercise that we start, it's going to be difficult. It's going to be hard. It's going to be a little painful in the beginning.

Yeah.

And one of the things, as you were talking, that I just wanted to speak to specifically to that anxious person is, although your partner cannot meet your needs in that moment, it doesn't mean that your needs are too much. Because often that's a self-talk that happens. And then instead of really stepping out of it, you are stepping out of it, but then you're just kind of going deep into a dark place for yourself and telling yourself something that's not true. And that doesn't help the process either. And so, yes, they can't meet your needs in the moment. No, your needs are not too much. Your needs are valid, and you do have to figure out how to get them met in another way. And then one of the ways that you can eventually figure out how to get them met in the relationship is what you just talked about.

Mm-hmm.

Is becoming curious and talking to your partner and understanding when and how you need to come to your partner and vice versa. So that's, that's just beautiful. Thank you.

Well, thank you. I think that's such a great addition. And that is so, so important because we can feel very negatively towards our partners and rail and rage and get upset. But we can also really turn in on ourselves,

right?

And, and hate on ourselves and judge ourselves and call ourselves all sorts of names. And that is definitely so unkind to ourselves and the opposite of what I want. I want a real sense of self-respect in how we conduct ourselves in relationships. So we have to respect our process and our needs and our emotions. They're really, really valid. And in fact, we need to pay much better attention to them rather than just putting them out into the world and wanting everyone else to make sense of them and figure them out and kind of comfort them. They are precious.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, we must hold them close and really understand them and look after ourselves and And really celebrate them because yeah, they're not too much. We are not too much.

Thank you. Thank you. That is beautiful. So can you tell our listeners how they can find your book, how they can find you?

Absolutely. Well, my book is available online, kind of on Amazon and all local online retailers. It's available in most of the world, which is great. So if you go on my website or you go on my Instagram, you Just click the link and go through and we'll take you through to local booksellers there. It's called The Attachment Solution. And I talk about all the attachment traits that we need to work on. And I also— it's very much a how-to manual about how to become more secure, the literal practical tools to help us do that. And then I also look at these relationship dynamics like you and I have been talking about. So the anxious avoidant dance, the avoidant avoidant stalemate, and the anxious anxious fusion. These are all interesting relational dynamics. Right. that I look at and just say, look, here's a 10-step guide on how to work on that. And then I also am on Instagram where you can find me @charisecook, where I do online teachings and reminders and tips every day. I'm very active on there. It's really something that I think helps ground us every day on just what we can be working on to just keep moving forward in a positive way.

Wow, that's amazing. What a service. You have over 115,000 followers on Instagram and you show up every day. Kudos to you.

Thank you. Thank you. I'm very committed to the cause. Yes.

That is beautiful. Well, Charisse, thank you so much for coming on and just giving so much wisdom to our podcast listeners.

It's been an absolute pleasure, Dr. Zoe. Thank you so much for having me. And I can see the wisdom and light shining from you. So we're so lucky to have you as well.

Oh, thank you so much. Oh, what a wonderful interview. Thank you for listening to Stronger in Difficult Places. New episodes go up on Tuesdays. Subscribe so you don't miss an episode and have a strong week.