How The 12 Steps Can Transform Your Life And Relationships

Hey there. Welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. I'm Dr. Zoe, your host, and today we're talking to author, bestselling author, Ian Morgan Cron. And he is a psychotherapist, an Enneagram teacher, an Episcopal priest, and the host of the popular podcast Typology. Today we're going to talk about how 12 steps can change your life, even if you aren't an addict. I'm looking forward to this conversation. You know, we talk here. All about difficult relationships, especially that sometimes difficult relationship with yourself. And we know that changing you is the key to changing everything in your life. And so I'm excited to talk about this 12-step process. I'm looking forward to it. Welcome, Ian. I often, when I have men on the, the podcast, I used to count like how many, because I rarely have men. I've been doing this podcast for maybe 5 years, but you're definitely in, in the 2 hands. We might be into the second hand now, but welcome. I'm so glad to have you here.

I'm so now honored to be here.

Yes, yes. Rare space for men here. But, you know, I was, I was really drawn into the title of your book and the explanation when I heard from your publisher or the publicist, because as a therapist, I've worked with people, you know, with addictions, and I've certainly worked with people in the 12-step program. And it just intrigued me to think about Hmm, it does make sense that we could not only use it, but maybe transform our lives through 12-step programs. So can you tell us just a little bit of history of how you got to this particular topic?

Yeah, so the, the title of the book kind of describes the whole book, right? It's The Fix: How the 12 Steps Offer a Surprising Path of Transformation for the Well-Adjusted, the Down and Out, and Everyone in Between.

That's impressive that you have that memorized. I always forget the subtitle to my—

I know, I know. Don't worry, so will everybody else. The, um, the story behind the book is I've been involved in a 12-step community for people recovering from drug and alcohol, uh, you know, addictions. I've been around these programs since 1987. And, uh, what I've come to realize in the last few years is the conversation around mental health has become, you know, increasingly large and important in culture.

Right.

You know, I, I really felt like, you know, isn't it funny that we have this program that has literally saved and transformed the lives of tens of millions of people? And yet, and yet, people don't know that they could change the life of anybody, whether they identified as an alcoholic or an addict or an overeater or a gambler or whatever, you know what I mean? Or a codependent person or a you know, the, the long list of addictions and, and conditions that 12 steps can really help. And I'm like, I want to write a book that democratizes the steps and puts them into the hands, uh, and minds of people who, you know, whether it's a soccer mom, you know, who's just trying to stop people pleasing.

Yeah.

Uh, is addicted to that behavior, right? Or to someone that, you know, is in a relationship that's really dysfunctional and they keep going back and back and back and back, even though this person is clearly never going to change unless that the, the other person changes, you know, it's like, how can I make the 12 steps accessible to everybody? And that's what the book does.

I love that. So I read somewhere that you said that everybody is addicted to something. And that definitely piqued my interest. And it made my mind just kind of, just, you know, kind of do what my mind does sometimes. So can you explain, first of all, can you define what addiction is? And then talk a little bit about that.

Right. So as you know, as a therapist, right, addiction is a very, very, very complicated, like, phenomenon. Right?

Right.

But I think for our purposes, we could say that it's, it's an unhealthy compulsive relationship with a person, a behavior, or a substance that has mood-altering effects and negative consequences.

That's so good. I love that.

Yeah. And so if that is true, and that, that's fairly close to a clinical definition there, right? Right. Then that means everybody is an addict, right? Like, like, I'm just convinced this is true, right? Like, first of all, neurologically speaking, and I'm not a neuroscience guy, but I do know this, human beings are wired for addiction. It's just a fact. Right? Right. And not only do I know that, but social media companies know that. And news companies know that.

Yes. Marketing companies know that.

Yeah. Food. Yeah. Food companies that make processed foods know that, right? Like, they, they just know it's not hard to hook human beings. And we're behaviorally wired for addictions. And so, you know, I just really feel like this book is also super timely because of the addiction crisis we have in our country. And it's not just substances, you know.

Right.

I always laugh when people say to me, you know, I'll go speak someplace and people will be like, oh, well, we'll pray for you. You know what I mean? And I'm like, honey, I got news for you. I'm no different than you. You know, it's not just for those people. We are those people, right?

Yes.

All of us find ourselves trapped in self-sabotaging behaviors. compulsively, repeatedly, and we just can't stop them on our own. We need some help.

I would say, you know, with my couple of decades of experience, that that is the truth. That is the truth. And, you know, we— I've talked on here about love addiction. I talk a lot about codependency. And we've even had some people come on and talk about, you know, food addiction. And so I know that this is very timely and important for my audience. So can we, can we dive in? Because A lot of people don't really know the 12 steps. Everyone's heard of 12 steps, right, and 12-step programs. But I would say that a lot of people don't really know what they are.

Yeah. So interestingly, the 12 steps were written in the 1930s by a guy named Bill Wilson. Bill Wilson was basically a hopeless alcoholic dying in a hospital room. He had this, he had this profound spiritual awakening while he was in that room. As a result of a conversation with a guy who had found a solution, and it's actually it derives from a Christian organization in the 1930s called the Oxford Movement. They had six steps. Bill Wilson expanded it to twelve, and since its inception, like I said, I don't even know how many it could be well over a hundred. million people whose lives have been radically transformed, right? So the 12 steps, um, you can actually break them down into a couple of pieces. Like, the first 3 steps are about mend your relationship with God or your higher power, however you choose to define that higher power. Um, 4 through, uh, 7 is really about mend your relationship with yourself.

Mm.

8 and 9 is mend your relationship with others. And then 10 through 12 is really all about how do I cultivate a life or a lifestyle that supports health and ongoing growth in each of those domains of my life, my spiritual life, my relational life with myself and with others.

Mm-hmm.

And so, um, if you want to go one by one, we can. But, but in short, it's really all about mending ruptured relationships, you know, and, and actually, it's really about having a spiritual awakening, however that looks for you, right? Like, Wilson said that, look, you know, addictions are not moral failures. They're not—

Yes.

You know, that's not what they're about. They're really a spiritual problem that requires a spiritual solution. And, uh, it works. That's all I can say.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so it sounds like the last couple are more about maintenance, learning how to maintain.

Yes.

I also know, you know, uh, the 12-step model is not this idea that you will no longer struggle with your addiction, right? It's something that you learn to kind of weave into, or I should say maintaining it is something you weave into your life.

Yes. You know, in the beginning, you work the steps obviously in order, right? And as you're doing it as a newcomer, you're thinking about the numbers, right? Okay, I'm on step 1, I'm on step 4, I'm on step 5. You know, you're working with a sponsor who is somebody in the program who's got more time than you do and is just helping you go through the steps and serve as a kind of ad hoc advisor.

Mm-hmm.

That said, My sponsor, by the way, who I talk a lot about in the book—the book, unlike a lot of books on recovery, it's very practical, it's very hands-on, but it's also loaded with stories, and actually, it's got a lot of humor in it. You know, I'm just a—I'm an Irish guy. I love to tell stories, and I love to, you know, wink at different experiences and smile. You know?

Yeah, yeah.

And my sponsor—he's—he's this crazy guy from East Tennessee. He is so funny, and he's got this thick country drawl. all, you know. And he said to me one day, he said, you know, Ian, you practice the steps long enough, and eventually the numbers just melt away.

Yeah.

And now you're just inside it. Now you don't even think about it. You're just reflexively living this new life on a spiritual basis. You know, organized around the spiritual principles found in every step, right? So the first 3 steps you have, we were powerless over. Now, if you were an alcoholic, you'd say alcohol, overeating, you know, whatever your people pleasing, this codependent relationship, that our lives had become unmanageable. The second one is came to believe that a power greater than myself could restore us to sanity. And then 3 is made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him. So what does that mean? Step 1 is, people like to say, is I can't. Step 2 is he, she, it can. And 3 is I think I'll let him.

Wow. That's powerful. That's powerful.

So that, so that's the spiritual, like, it's right off the bat, right off the bat. It's like, okay, let's just check this out. This is gonna be a spiritual solution to our trying to solve internal problems with external solutions.

Mhmm.

Right?

Yeah.

It's like we gotta change from the inside out, not the outside in.

Right.

Right? So whatever pain it is that we're trying to numb or anesthetize or distract ourselves from, anything outside of us— food, gambling, sex, love, whatever your thing is— it, it will not work. And in fact, the— your solution to the problem ends up becoming more of a problem than the problem you sought to solve with it.

Okay.

You know what? Right?

Yes. Right?

So then we start to work on ourselves. 4 is made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5 is admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Right? So here's—

Yeah. Yeah,

man. We're just gonna go inside and take a look. And we do it with a non-blaming, compassionate gaze. It's— this is not a blame and shame and guilt thing. Right. The steps are very kind, but they're But they're also demanding. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like having a hard coach, you know what I mean? Like somebody who's like a real hard-nosed coach, and you love them and hate them at the same time, you know, for a little minute, right? For a hot minute. And so, so 4 and 5 is just like, okay, well, we got to go inside and kind of see where the problems are that are the underlying causes and conditions of my addiction. You know, my compulsive behaviors. And then 6 and 7 are, we're entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. And, uh, 7, uh, is humbly ask him to remove our shortcomings. Here's what I love about the steps. The steps say you cannot, quote unquote, fix yourself, uh, by virtue of your unaided willpower.

Right.

Like, like you need outside help.

Right?

Like, so I have a story in The Fix about my son Aiden when he was about a year and a half. Do you mind if I tell a slightly loose story?

I'd love to hear it.

All right. So when he was about a year and a half old, I was giving him a bath and I realized I didn't have a towel. So I ran to the linen closet really fast to get one. And by the time I got back, he did what many little children do at that age. He had taken an epic poo in the tub. You know what I'm saying?

Yes. Yes.

Like, like, and I'm talk— I, I'm talking like Exxon Valdez spill level.

Oh, in the tub right

now. In the short time I was gone, he realized that he too had caused an environmental disaster. And he had tried picking it up to get it out. And then it got up. Then it got on his hands, and he wiped it on his hair. And then he wiped it on the tile walls. You know what I'm talking about, don't you?

I do. I do.

Okay. All right. So what was going on there is a perfect illustration for what I'm talking about. Like, Think about how this works in our lives. Aiden realized he had a problem. He tried to fix it for himself. As he was trying to fix it for himself, he made more of a mess than when he started.

Yeah.

Right?

Yes.

He needed somebody larger with more power outside of him to lift him out, clean him off, right? Because he couldn't do it himself.

Yeah.

Right? In the 12 steps, same principle operates, right? Like, like we need a power greater than ourselves to disentangle us from our addictions. And, and the only way we're going to change is if we give that power consent to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

Right.

Which is fix us. Right. So we have to turn these things over. It's not like— and people say, oh, that's so simple. You're kidding, right? Like, I just gotta turn it over. It's like, no. Like, consent is hard.

Yeah. Right?

But—

We always want to take it back because we feel like we can somehow do it better. We want that control. Yes.

Absolutely. And that's the also, you know, because when the ego starts to step in and say, don't worry, honey, I got this, right? Well, we know where that ends, right? It never ends well.

Right, right. It doesn't.

But, but surrender and admitting powerlessness is actually a superpower.

I love that.

You know what I'm saying? Like, when you give up, this is the irony. When you finally give up and say, I'm out of ammo, that's the moment when this other power comes in. And I've experienced it physically, psychologically, emotionally. You know what I mean? Like, I have experienced this. I have actually experienced, as countless addicts have, the feeling of the obsession with, or the repetitive behavior literally being expelled from your life.

Oh.

Like, it's just, yeah, you know, it's like it's lifted.

Mm-hmm.

And it's, it's like people look at me like, really? And I'm like, yeah, no, I'm not fooling, man. Like, I could introduce you to a million people who've had that experience, right? So by the time you get to 8 and 9, You know, it's made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. 9 is made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would hurt them or others. Right. So it's now it's just, okay, now I got to clean up my side of the street because chances are I've got a bunch of ruptured relationships out there that need repairing because I have so much shame and guilt around it that it's feeding my addiction. Yeah.

Right.

And it's also just how we want to be in the world, right? We just, we don't want to be walking around with, you know, unacknowledged problems in relationships. And you know this as a therapist, like, how many, how many clients do you know whose lives would have been changed if someone who really hurt them at some point had come to them and said, I acknowledge I hurt you, and I'm really sorry. Can you forgive me?

You know, the crazy thing is, is I feel like I spend a lot of time with so many people learning to accept that they're never going to get that.

Right, right. Yes.

But yes, it would be so powerful if they could actually get it.

Yeah. You know, my dad died of alcoholism and drug addiction when he was 63 years old, and I— he never knew a day sober in his life. He was Someone who had a grave mental disorder as well. So, you know, but as you can imagine, there's a lot of hurt there for me.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, I, I've oftentimes said, you know, if my dad had just said, if he was just capable of saying he was sorry,

right?

What a difference it would've made for me. It would've saved me so much time. So we're gonna give that gift to other people by just going to them and saying, hey, look, this is my part. I can't, I can't speak for whatever you did in this relationship. But as for me, here's what I did wrong. And how can I make this up to you? It's just cleaning up your side of the street. That's all we're doing, sweeping our side of the street.

That's beautiful.

And then 10 through 12, continued to take personal inventory. And when we were wrong, promptly admitted it, sought— then 11, sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood him, praying only for knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out. And then 12, having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others, or alcoholics, whatever you want to And to practice these principles in all our affairs, and that's it. Those are just three steps, or they are called the maintenance steps. You use that word, and it's just about okay. So I've done these steps. How do I now continue to live this life in such a way that it supports not only my emotional and physical sobriety, but it really I become an agent of kindness. and tolerance and love and compassion and creativity and clarity, all the good stuff we want it to be, you know.

Yeah.

And then we start again. Right? We start again, and we keep working the steps.

You know, that is so beautiful and so powerful. And I appreciate you sharing them because I realized as you were sharing the steps that I don't think I have probably read through all of them or heard all of them since grad school.

I

just have that knowledge of them. But hearing them, just so powerful. So powerful. And, you know, the other thing that really struck me, because I know that a lot of my clients deal with this, is the morality aspect.

Yes.

When it comes to a lot of the things they're dealing with, when it comes to addictions or even when it comes to, you know, I have some clients with ADD who feel this sense of there's something, you know, morally wrong with me. And I love that you gave them permission to take the morality away from it.

Oh, yeah.

That also helps you to take that control. Because if you feel like, no, I'm wrong or bad, and I have to fix myself before I can even come to God, or before I can even do anything, then you get caught in the shame spiral and shame cycle, and you don't ever really get there, do you?

No. My sponsor sometimes likes to say, I'm not a bad person trying to be good. I'm a sick person becoming better. And I love that. And even though the word sick may sound land hard to the on the ears, you know a little bit. It's like, well, come on. Let's can we all just cop to the fact that we're a little crazy? You know what I'm saying? And I'm just a sick person getting better, you know. And but I'm not a bad person trying to be good.

I like that. You know, I like that. That's so good. The other thing that struck me that you said is that. This is all about relationships, repairing relationships. And so I wonder if you can talk a little bit about the connection between addiction and relationships.

Yeah, it's such a good question. And you're the first interviewer to ask me that question. And I'm so excited to answer it. So, all right. Well, if you think about it, now speak as a therapist. At the core, we're talking about our relationship with a behavior, a substance, or a person. Addictions are rooted in relationships.

Right?

Right. You, you form a relationship with alcohol or with drugs, right? And it's like it becomes your best friend.

Yes. Yeah.

Ben and Jerry's can become your best friend, right?

You're anxious.

It's 2 in the morning. You're anxious or you're grieving or you're sad and you think, ah, food will make it better. Right? And meanwhile, You know, the adverse consequences are health problems and, you know, all the other stuff. And so, you know, all addictions are rooted in relationship. And so what we're trying to do is to interrupt the circuit on this compulsive relationship with a substance, a behavior, or a person.

Mm-hmm.

And establish a new relationship with a higher power, God, as I choose to call him.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, that will render that old relationship unnecessary. See, I'm, I'm actually replacing a relationship with a person, a behavior, or a substance with a relationship, with a spiritual relationship that will give me the power to live my life facing life on life's terms.

Mm-hmm.

Without needing to default to a behavior, a substance, or a person to feel better. Right,

right.

And so it is all about relationships. And, and that's also why we go to meetings, right? And in the book, I give a lot of suggestions about meetings and things like that. But I can say that even if you choose not to go to a meeting, like, having a community of support, even if you pull 4 or 5 people around you, you read my book, you do the workbook, you'd have a little 12-step community for a season, right? Maybe for Maybe for like 3 months, and you're just gonna go do the steps together, right?

And

the thing is, is like, in the context of those relationships, again, relationships, we find healing with each other, right?

Yeah.

There's an old adage in a 12-step community, right? They have like an adage for everything, right?

And,

and so there's one though, that's really true. It's that we get sick alone, and we get well together.

That's beautiful.

Right? And so relationships, man, addictions are all about relationships. And like, I'm a big internal family systems guy, and I'm— but I also like other modalities. But like, at the end of the day, it's usually relationships that go sideways in addiction, in addition to things like genes and biology and things like that in addiction. But really, oftentimes beneath our addictions are a lot of broken relationships and relationships that didn't give us what we needed when we needed it. And we've turned to a relationship with something else to make up for it.

Right. Created holes in us and we're trying to fill them with things that are—

Yes.

Not healthy.

That's right. And not only that, but those little containers leak.

Oh my gosh.

Right? Right. Like you can, you can keep pouring whatever you pour in there. Right. whether it's, you know, alcohol or drugs or sex or whatever your thing is, and they leak. So you have to keep— you have to— and the leak gets worse over time. So now you got to pour more and more in there more and more often.

Yeah. Yeah. Such a great analogy. You know, as I'm thinking of a woman out there who might be listening to this and realizing, yeah, you know, I struggle with whatever it is, whether it's love addiction, codependency, people pleasing, sex, food, whatever it is, alcohol or drugs. Um, we know there's 12 steps out there for alcohol, for drugs, there's sex addiction, uh, 12-step programs, and there's some food 12-step programs as well. Um, I know that some churches have, uh, recovery programs, I believe, for codependency. I think.

Yeah, yeah, I think, I think there are. I know there's like what that, that program called Celebrate Recovery is one, among others. And, um, you know, there's hundreds, literally hundreds. Like, there's Shoppers Anonymous, there's, there's Debtors Anonymous, Spending Anonymous. Um, I mean, the list is really long, right? Like, let me ask you a question. So, so as a therapist, like, how many people do you meet that aren't codependent?

Well, you know, you know, my sample skewed because people come to me for these issues. But oh, goodness, it's very few. I'd have to say very few. Yeah.

Yeah. And I meet tons of people who are not my clients, right? Like, just all the time, or people I'm observing. I'm like, wow.

Yeah,

that person clearly believes that they can't be happy unless they make everybody else happy.

Right?

Right.

What they don't also realize is it is a control issue as well. They think it's a people-pleasing issue. But underneath that is a desire to control.

Yes. Yes. Dare I say sometimes manipulate?

Absolutely

right. And right. So my guess, my, the point I'm trying to make is, you know, that the— I just don't know anyone who isn't struggling, and who couldn't really benefit from working the steps at least once in their life. And once they've done it, to continue to draw on their wisdom every day. Like, you don't just do the steps. And then that's that, right? It's not like, like, it's actually a way of life.

Mm-hmm.

It's a way of seeing and experiencing the world through the lens of powerlessness, surrender, prayer, relying on a higher power, trust. Letting go. And again, it's just miraculous what happens when we do these things that actually spiritual masters have been telling us to do for thousands of years.

So true. So true. So true. I love that. And yes, I agree with you. I'm definitely getting the book. I will definitely be referring clients to it because I myself consider myself a struggling— not struggling, recovering codependent. And I'm trying to think of some other addictions I might have. I'm not sure where I might— sometimes I've had some addictions to exercise. So yeah, I can definitely recognize it in myself, and I can recognize it in plenty of other people.

Hmm.

Such a need.

Well, I think at the end of the day, you know, I feel like my Calling in life is to introduce people to ideas and experiences that, that deepen and improve their lives. Right? That's it. You know, like I wrote, I wrote books about the Enneagram. I wrote books about this, you know, about other things. And the whole purpose always is, hey, you know, I know about this idea or this system, this— and I like to think of the 12 steps as a kind of spiritual technology. Yeah. Right? It's like, I know about this thing that if you were to use it would really improve your life. And I just promise your listeners that if they check out the 12 steps, regardless of whether they think, oh, I'm an— you know, if they can't— even if they're having trouble pegging an addiction, like, I don't know who— frankly, I don't— I've never— I have said this 100,000 times to people. Everyone's an addict, right? And every time I say it to a large room of people, everyone nods their head. I mean, I don't think anybody is so

out

of it, right? I mean, you have to have virtually no self-awareness to say you don't have an addictive, at least an addictive pattern in your life, right?

Yes.

Like, we haven't even touched workaholism yet. Like, I mean, seriously, like, and, and, you know, just to go inside and ask yourself, What am I looking for in blank, in success, in money, in work, in whatever, that I really can only find in God and in myself? Do you know what I mean? Like, and man, when you start to start to do that work, a lot comes up and a lot of good changes on the horizon.

Well, I'm looking forward to diving into this. Where can people get it? When is it coming out?

Yeah, it drops on January the 28th. But people can preorder it now. And if they do, they, uh, we will send them the first chapter to get them started. Like a, like a, you know, they can get a download of it. And you could go to ianmorganchron.com/getyourdownload.

I love it.

And, um, you'll get directions. All you have to do is prove that you preordered it. There's a really simple way to do that. Um, And then you can get your first chapter and in advance if it's dropping on January 28th.

That's wonderful.

Thanks.

So, Ian, could you just provide my listeners with one little first step other than buying your book towards applying these, these 12 steps? Or just give a woman some encouragement when, if she's sitting here thinking, wow, I see this in my life. I'm, I'm aware and I see this.

Yeah. I love— I was in treatment for, you know, for alcohol and drug addiction. And 2 things happened, 2 conversations. One was with a woman who I'll call Sky. That's what I like to call her because I change everybody's name in the book. Right. And but she was a therapist there. And she asked me to tell my story. And I did. And it was kind of a tearful, conversation for me, right? And she looked at me with just the kindest eyes. And she said, I think you've endured enough already, don't you?

Wow.

And it was one of those things that kind of like someone had dropped a pallet of bricks on my head, you know, where you're just like, whoa. And it was also just her kindness, right?

Yes.

And I thought, yeah, I think, I think I've endured enough already. You know? And so one question I'd have for your listeners is, is as you think about your life and you think about pockets of it where there's some suffering for you, like, ask yourself the question, haven't you all endured enough already? And if your answer is yes, then I would point you toward what Bill Wilson said. There is a solution.

Hmm.

You know, I mean, he says that— I remember reading that in the, in, in the big book that Bill Wilson wrote. And he says there is a solution. And, you know, it just actually, as I'm saying it, I'm getting chills even as I say it, because I remember how it landed for me. Like, oh, there is? Oh, I thought there was no solution for this crazy, you know.

Right.

And, and so haven't you endured enough already? And if so, all right, well, try this. Right? Like, try this. It'll— it will, it will benefit your life. And if you really throw yourself into it, it will benefit your life in ways that you can't imagine yet.

Thank you so much for writing the book.

Thanks for having me.