How Your Early Childhood Trauma is Affecting Your Relationships with Dr. Joelle Maletis

Hi there, Dr. Zoe here. Welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. Today's episode is about how your early childhood trauma may be affecting your current relationships. I have an excellent guest. I'm excited to have her. Her name is Joelle Miletus, if I'm pronouncing that correctly. She's a well-known psychotherapist and PTSD expert. Her passion is helping those in need find empowerment by discovering how to be their most true and successful selves by developing self-discovery and post-traumatic growth. Her career highlights include being a guest speaker on ABC's 60 Minutes, Beyond the Headlines, authoring a TED-Ed video on PTSD, and several outstanding achievement awards for top female executive. I'm really excited to have her on today because, you know, 1 in 3 children experience childhood trauma, and then they go on to become adults and they have these relationships. And it's very important to know how your early trauma could be affecting your current relationship. So listen in. Dr. Joelle, I am so excited to have you here today. It's been a long time coming.

It has.

I've been going back and forth for a while trying to make this work, so I'm so glad that you were able to show up today.

Thank you. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I know, it's the joys of motherhood, isn't it?

Oh my goodness.

Yeah, do it all, right?

It's crazy, but it's wonderful and beautiful. How many do you have?

I have 2 and they're older. So, um, I have a son that's 22 that just graduated from university last week. Thank you. And then a daughter who's 20, um, who's in her 3rd year at university. So,

okay.

So you're a little older.

Yeah, we have some similarities though. I'm sure my listeners are tired of hearing me talk about my son who's getting ready to go to college in 2 weeks. We're sending him off to Rhode Island, and I'm in California. Where are you, by the way?

I'm in California. And so I had one that my older one went to New York, and my daughter is in Milwaukee, and it's terrifying.

It is. I'm like, I feel like nobody feels my pain. I'm grieving and I'm scared, although I'm excited for him at the same time. It's just so many. And I know so many women are feeling it all over the place, but Yeah, it's an interesting time.

Exactly.

Okay, so let's dive into this. But before we get started, so we're going to talk about childhood trauma and how it affects your current relationships. But before we get started, can you share your win and your fail?

Oh my gosh, I think I was just saying to you, you know, there's, there's multiple, multiple wins and fails every day. Um, I am a chronic perfectionist. And I know, you know, you as a, as a retired athlete can appreciate that.

I can.

I'm a retired ballerina. So, yes, lots of perfectionism issues. And just when I think that I've like, I'm like, I have conquered this, right? And it's like, oh, nope, there it is again.

Something else comes to show you, yeah, you're still dealing with

it. Still dealing with it. Yeah. Right, which we could talk about how that connects to childhood trauma when we get into it. So I think, I think my win, and it sounds, it sounds a little strange, but my win was yesterday. When I'm preparing for podcasts, I listen to shows and I, you know, kind of go back and look at my notes and, and I had this realization that I am completely stuck in my own progress. I, I had an injury in March and I just started PT about 4 weeks ago, and I am so stuck in like, I have to get it right and be perfect at this thing, that it was causing me like some major stress and anxiety. Mm-hmm. And I have a great, a great, um, doc, and, and so I Talked to him today, and I this morning, and I'm like, you know, here's where I'm getting stuck at. I'm like coming in expecting that I just I'm an athlete. I should be perfect at PT. And he started to laugh, and I'm like, there it is again, right? It it's it's so subconscious and insidious, right? And I'm like, ugh. And it felt it it felt super defeating yesterday. And so I think that would be the fail where I felt like. I kind of just failed at doing the skills. Like, I teach this stuff, you know, this is what I do for a living, and yet here I am suffering with, with it again, again, again, again, right? And then the win, I think, was being able to today just go in and speak it and just say, okay, I need help recognizing when I'm doing that. Like, call me out on my, my behavior. Yeah. Try and make it more conscious. And that, it sounds so simple, but for me it's terrifying because I'm a perfectionist and I don't want people to see my flaws, right? Mm-hmm. Being able to go in and be vulnerable and just say, okay, I'm really stuck here again and I don't want that to hinder my progress. So I need help. I need help keeping me humble with, With my progress.

Yes, that's a huge win. That's a huge win. And that's why I want— that's why I share. That's why I want my guests to share their wins and their fails. Because even though we teach this stuff, we are still human, right? And we still struggle with it. And so it makes a lot of sense. And it's important for everybody to know, although there is so much hope in being able to overcome these kinds of things. And as we struggle, I think we work on overcoming them on a daily basis. And that's really what it's all about.

Yeah. And I think hope is always the measure, right? And I say always with intention of,

you

know, there are days where I feel hopeless, right? And can that be my normal in that moment, right? And then there are days where, like today, I woke up and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna confront my fears and I'm gonna address this. And I felt more hopeful in that. I still am working on it, even though it comes up for me.

Right.

I'm paying attention. And so, you know, does that mean that I can fix it overnight? No, this is super ingrained behavior. It does mean, though, that I'm more aware of it and I can keep moving forward. And that made me feel hopeful, right? So just allowing myself to have those moments where it's okay for me to feel hopeless Sometimes, right? Which is very different than all the time.

Right, right. And you know, that awareness, that's really why I want to do the podcast today, because I want women and men— I have some men listening, hey guys out there— um, to become aware of how their early childhood experiences may be affecting their current relationships. Because when you're aware, then you can have some intention, right? So let's talk about first, let's go really basic. What is childhood trauma? Because that word is thrown around, you know, so easily now and so flippantly, and everything is trauma. And I just want to know if you can just give a basic explanation for what would you consider childhood trauma?

Yeah, and I appreciate you asking the question. So I'll back into the answer if that's okay.

Please.

You know, for me and working with clients, I believe trauma's in the eyes of the beholder. And it doesn't have to be something that I either A, feel is traumatic, or B, have experienced. Right. If someone's coming in and saying, this is traumatic for me and it's affecting my life in all these different areas and my relationships, right? Relationship with self, at work, romantically, with my parents, my children, whatever that looks like, right? Then it's trauma. And so I really— that's important for me to hold that space for people. You know, traditionally in the world of psychology, we define trauma— we used to define it as, you know, big T traumas, which were things that were catastrophic, horrific. They had a beginning, a middle, and an end. If we think of sexual assault, a car accident, domestic violence, experiencing that firsthand.

Mm-hmm.

Little t trauma being things that were either witnessed or what we would call vicarious or secondary trauma, right? It's observing it, it's being told to me, I'm experiencing it, it's not happening to my person.

Right.

We started to shift away from that in the world of psychology, and now we look at things with sort of micro and macro trauma, right? Micro trauma being little things that happen on a day-to-day basis. That could be gaslighting, it could be yelling, it could be Emotional manipulation, right? It could be a lot of things. It could be being bullied at school for children versus macro trauma, which is more of that traditional definition of something that's horrific, catastrophic, terrifying. So when I think about early childhood trauma, I'm really looking at separating out micro and macro events. Mm-hmm. For some people, they say, I had a great childhood, I had wonderful parents. And the microtrauma for them may be that the parents were very high achieving and they had very high expectations for their children. And the child then starts to become more perfectionistic, right? Or Type A, or they have very low tolerance and are rigid, right? There's a lack of flexibility. Right. that continues to be reinforced and solidified over time, right? And then in adulthood, there's a difficult time in relationships because there's that lack of tolerance, right? I don't tolerate other ways of doing things or other ways of thinking about it, or if my partner is significantly different, right? Mm-hmm. Than my expectation, I'm inflexible. And so, you know, it, that's an example of something that's more on the microtrauma traumatic spectrum. So I try and couch childhood trauma with really separating out something that is terrifying, horrific, and meets that trauma, classical trauma definition, versus something that is sort of this ongoing emotional, psychological, maybe even financial damage that we don't always log. Right. You know, there's these single episode events,

Right. Yeah. So based on that definition, do you think it's safe to say that everyone has experienced childhood trauma?

You know, broad brush, sure. Right. Yeah. I, I think, I think there's no perfect parent. There's no perfect family. There's levels of dysfunction. I, I used to joke and say, even my own children, like, I'll, I'll pay for therapy instead of their college tuition. Right. Like,

I say the same thing. I mean, I haven't said instead of, but I'm like, look, I will pay for your I know I'm not getting it all right. Yeah.

And so I think some of it is, is, of course, right? So what are we looking at? You know, is it grit? Is it resiliency? Is it values? Is it, you know, nature versus nurture? Like, what, what's the magic combination where some children thrive? Mm-hmm. And others don't. Mm-hmm. Because there's no perfect family, perfect parent, right? Right. With these little micro traumas. So I think for me, looking at that, if there are parents listening, it's really about the reparative work as a parent and, and working on, okay, maybe I did, you know, I'll just speak about myself, you know, yell at the children for whatever it was they did. Right. What parts of my ownings Saying, uh, you know, mom could have handled that differently. Mm-hmm. And I'm sorry. And what parts are they owning? I love you so much. You're the, you're the best children ever. And not but, and your behavior's unacceptable right now. Right. And so like that reparative moments that, that start to rep— that, that start to, to help alleviate things. So they're not held as traumas, right? Versus children who don't get that, that reparative piece hold on to it, even though they may have great parents.

Right.

You know, so I think it's, it's the answer more is, is how is it affecting people in their day-to-day living as adults?

That, that makes excellent sense. And I love that you said, and, like, you're an amazing child. I love you. I love you. And instead of but, because but kind of takes it away. And I've been, I've been guilty. I mean, not exactly that way, but using but instead of and. So that's wonderful. And that makes a lot of sense that when there isn't any reparation and that happens time over time, then you're going to have a much more severe effect than when there is reparation. And when you've got the love and the more secure attachment that might be in addition to Right? The trauma that exists. So can you talk a little bit about how these— how our childhood experiences, I guess I should say, tend to show up in relationships as issues when we're looking at trauma, whether it's micro or macro? You talked a little bit already about the perfectionist, right? And how that can— Yeah. And I see some parts of that in myself being rigid and things have to be this way. And I also talk about culture. Culture too, because of course when we just look at culture, every marriage is kind of a, a transcultural experience because we've experienced so many different things in our childhood, um, and we bring that to our marriage. But can you talk a little bit about how these things can show up?

Yeah, no, that's a great intro to— I tell you what I think is the answer, which is there's so many things that factor into this, um, culture being one of them. Right? And what our parents and what our families hold. So I may have wonderful parents and a great upbringing, and not but, right? And if I am, um, uh, first or second generation, you know, um, new to, to the United States, right? We'll just speak about American culture, right? Mm-hmm. If I'm, if I'm new here, there's gonna be a little bit of a disconnect from what my family and my parents experience versus what I experience. And so they may not intentionally or even consciously pass down something that could have been traumatic for them, but as the child, I'm absorbing that, right? Yeah. And so I think about my own children, right? And, and just, um, I remember my daughter saying to me one day, you know, well, you let him do it but not me. And there was that gender bias of like, oh yeah, I just did that. Yeah. Why? Because they're both safe. They're both equally competent. What was that about? And that's all about my experience. It has nothing to do with, with them. Right?

Right.

And so things like that, where, where we see trauma and generational trauma, cultural trauma, you know, ethnicity trauma, orientation, you name it, right? We see that because we are our own unique people. And whether we mean to or not, we make rules and we have values, right, for our children.

Right.

And so we, and we always, you know, I think people want to try and raise them better than we were raised, even when we have great parents, right? And so there, there's this bias and the subconscious component that we bring into You know, into a child's experience. And so I think sometimes there's this combination of things. So that may be a piece of it, right? Right. If a child grows up in poverty and, and they're now in adulthood and they're successful and they're thriving, there's this learned behavior, again, that may be very subconscious that they're replicating in their adult relationships, even though it's not true anymore. Right. So I think it's, it's very complicated as far as what is it, what's that combination of stuff. I think it's very individualized, you know, so I don't know if there's a good answer for that.

Yeah. You know, as you're saying that, I'm just wondering, so how can— is there a way? Is it even possible to dissect that and understand, okay, is my response appropriate? Is my response I hate to use that word normal, so I won't. We'll say healthy, right? Or is this about my own trauma?

Yeah, I think about really identifying the shoulda, woulda, coulda.

You know,

it's almost that finger pointing, or I laugh and I go, my mommy finger in my own head, right? Shoulda, right? Yeah, that shoulda, woulda, coulda, and, and paying attention to that. And you're like, ah, okay, there it is. And, and is that how I feel about it? Because it's my truth in that moment,

right? Right.

Regardless of whether it's real, it's my truth in that moment. So is that how I feel and a representation of what's really happening, or is it how I feel and it's not an accurate representation, right? So, oh, you should have done this thing.

Well,

according to whom? Who says that?

Right, right.

And so really challenging that inner monologue, that negative self-talk, is one way to start figuring out, is this a learned response? Is it a subconscious programming— programmed response, right? Is it a trauma response? Where is that coming from?

Right. So when I think about couples interacting and I think about, um, An example of like, you know, a wife comes to a husband and she says, you know, what you did last night at the dinner party, really, you know, I felt embarrassed or something. And a husband's response. So if let's say the husband blows up and he feels like she's attacked him, right? And this happens both ways. You know, your husband might come to you and you may blow up and feel like you've been attacked.

Right.

My guess is those, those types of things are usually about history because you're not being present. Right. And the actual thing, it's a— I don't know if it's self-talk, something that you're telling yourself, they're attacking me. Right. I'm guessing those would be like trauma responses.

Yeah, it's like you said, it's our defense mechanism. Right. So it's that warm or soft start conversations versus, hey, you did this thing conversation.

Yeah. Right?

You know, I was really embarrassed about the dinner party yesterday, and my feelings were hurt when this thing happened is a very softer message than, hey, you did this thing. So some of it's semantics, right? And, and the way that we respond. But that defense mechanism of us shutting down and, and pushing back, right, in protection can come from trauma. And so if For example, I were to say, you know, I'm making up a story, right? Let's say her story, her narrative is, um, she had a very, you know, emotionally abusive parent.

Yes.

Right. So she may always in her mind, right, be defensive, or her partner, her husband may say, you know, you're always with this really, this, this hyperbolic language, you're always defensive. Well, What's true about that? You know, and so there may be some truth there because of that behavior pattern, right? And it's— Right. And so then working with how do we soften that and come up with some different coping strategies? And it could be couples work, effective communication. There's a lot of different things, right? And so, but part of it is recognizing those patterns. Of where are they getting in your way?

Right, right. Yeah. And I think that's the first step is recognizing and noticing and, and, and understanding that sometimes your responses may not be about, as I talk to my clients, about the present, they're about the past.

Mm-hmm.

And just maybe questioning. So if you see that you are regularly responding in a certain way or feeling a certain thing, questioning, is that about the present? Or is that about the past?

Yeah. And a lot of times I'll, I'll help them with a skill. And it's like, well, whose, whose voice is that? You know? And so sometimes people say, oh, that's my voice. It's like, cool. That's great. I love, I love that, that we can recognize that. How old are you in that moment? Oh, I'm 5. Oh, I'm 15. Oh, I'm 22. It's like, Tell me what happened at that age.

Yeah.

What, because there's that, there's that piece, and that's usually that, that little trauma that's sitting underneath the surface there, right? Sometimes people like, whose voice is that? Oh, that's my coach, that's my teacher, that's my ex, that's my— ah, okay, what do you, what are you getting from that? And, and we do things and we get instant feedback, whether it's negative feedback loops or positive feedback loops. It helps us solidify the behavior when we get this instant response, even when it's negative, right? Mm-hmm. So it's like, well, what, why, what's the purpose of that still to listen to that, that ex, you know, the ex or the coach or who, what's the purpose of, of listening to that voice and what are you getting from it? And usually people, when they pay attention, will say nothing good. Ah, wonderful. So what? Not so what, who cares? So what do we want to do with that? Do we want to keep paying attention to it, or are we ready to start writing a new story? Right?

I love that. That's beautiful. Asking yourself the question, whose voice is that? Yes, thank you. Thank you. That's beautiful. So I wanted to ask you a little bit about how attachment styles might play into the way that you're interacting in your current relationship based on, you know, early childhood?

Yeah, I love attachment work. I, you know, was, was very much of my early training. And I think it's important to notice and to be aware of, okay, do I have a healthy or what we would say a secure attachment? I feel comfortable. I'm okay being vulnerable. in my current relationships now as a grownup? Do I have an anxious attachment, right? Where there's something about the interaction that makes me feel anxiety or defended, right? And, and there, there are others. Those are the easiest 2 to, to talk about.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so looking at that, I think is important. What I'm really interested now is post-traumatic growth. That, and so what? Okay. So, I have an anxious attachment style, and I know that when I'm feeling attacked, right, I react by pushing away my spouse. And again, I'm making up a hypothetical, right? So I react by pushing away my spouse because it's easier for me to cope, and I feel more comfortable replicating that anxious attachment.

Mm-hmm.

than I do being vulnerable, because being vulnerable means that I could potentially be hurt, right? Right. Even if I'm in a loving, safe relationship, I could be emotionally hurt, and I'm afraid to be vulnerable in this moment, right? So it's much easier for me to replicate that— this negative— that's that negative feedback loop, and I'm not aware of it. I don't— I'm not suggesting people are consciously doing this, right? This is so deep in the subconscious, right? And so I keep pushing back on that attachment with my spouse. And so starting to become— making that into a conscious experience, then I can change it.

That makes sense. Yeah, you know, I know, especially when we've had, um, some type of trauma, we tend to come to relationships And our focus is on protection instead of connection. And a lot of our interaction is based on protecting. And then it's hard to go deep intimately when we're so focused on protecting.

Yeah.

So tell me, tell me a little bit more about the whole concept of post-traumatic growth. I love, I love that those words together, they just sound really beautiful.

Yeah, it's, it's a theory that's been around for a while. And it really is about growing from traumatic experience.

Mm-hmm.

The pushback with the theory has been, oh, this idea of in order for me to grow and be a multifaceted, well-functioning human, I have to have trauma. And I don't, I don't believe that that's the case. I, I certainly don't, don't subscribe to that. I think for me, what, what I look at with post-traumatic growth is when it comes to trauma, whether it's micro, macro, that, you know, it's, it's not really what the trauma is. When it comes to trauma, most of the time, especially since we're talking about children, right? Right. Didn't cause it, can't control it.

Right.

Can't change it, right? This thing happened, or these things are happening. And I, there's nothing I can do to shape that outcome. And so as an adult, there's this loss of power, right? And it's powerless. And then powerlessness that comes in and it affects every— everything, how we are in the world, our worldview, how we relate to people, and certainly our intimate relationships. Mm-hmm. And so the idea of post-traumatic growth is saying, okay, I didn't cause it, can't change it, can't control it. I certainly can work with it and start to change the way I allow it to affect me now. And that's not static because how it affects me today is going to be very different than how it affects me next year. Mm-hmm. Right. And, and in a, and in different types of relationships, whether it's with my spouse or whether it's with my boss or my children. So this notion of, of taking acceptance of this thing happened doesn't mean that I have to forgive, forget, like it. I don't necessarily have to do anything with that.

Right?

It's more about acknowledgement. And then the, and so what? So what does that mean for me now? And what do I want to do with that?

I would imagine that acceptance part, which feels like letting go of control, would be so hard for people who have experienced a lot of trauma, because my guess is that in my experience and my practice is that their desire is to over-control, to protect. Right. Yeah. So, and that leads me to my next question of, so can these patterns of, of behaving in a relationship, maybe the over-control, the over-defensiveness, the feeling of wanting to protect instead of connect, Um, can those patterns be changed and, and how?

I, I believe so. And, you know, I want to point out that these are simple concepts that we're talking about and the way that we're presenting it, right? It's simple or easy to understand. It's not easy. If it were easy, everybody'd be doing it, right?

True. Yeah.

And everybody'd be in therapy and everybody like, like, you know, they

do step 1, 2, 3, and 4

and they'd be

fixed. And go on.

Yeah, exactly. And so it's like, it's simple to comprehend, but extremely painful and difficult to implement. And it takes diligence, right? And so I think, for me, a lot of it is, what can we do to protect ourselves differently? Because what we've been doing, Especially with trauma, works. When I over-control, when I'm disconnected, right? When I'm protected, I keep myself safe. Why on earth would I give that up? That makes no— there's no logical sense in that, right? Right. And so part of it is, does it work for me still though? Do I still need it? And if I'm in a loving, safe marriage, Do I need that? Probably not. Right.

Right.

And so,

so probably actually hurting. I love that you said that because when I talk to my clients about their experiences and how they're showing up in their relationships, I, I make this metaphor and I've probably done it on the podcast before of imagine that you are a soldier on a battlefield, right? And on that battlefield, you need all the things. You need the helmet, you need the guns, you need the grenades, you need the protection and all the armor. And that's good. It's important, right? It keeps you safe and healthy. But if you go home to the mall, right, back to your family, and you go to the mall and you're walking around the mall with all that, that's not going to work. You're going to get arrested. It's just not— it's not functional at all. And that's what we do, right, with our, with our childhood defenses that were healthy and we needed them there. We bring them into relationships when now they're actually damaging.

Right. And I think what doesn't work is this assumption, right, or presumption that we'll just do it differently.

Mm-hmm.

We'll just, just come up with a different defense mechanism. I'm not, right, like I hear a lot with my clients, well, I'm not attacking you, I'm not so-and-so. And, and it's very interesting to me. And so a lot of it that I've discovered with clients and in my work is We have to build up the something new first. What are ways to create new coping mechanisms, new defense mechanisms, and strategies before really getting rid of the old ones? Because we can't be defenseless, it won't work. Right? So what are some new things that we can do that feel challenging and safe? Right?

Yes.

And then we start to flip the script a little bit, they become a little bit more challenging, and they feel a little bit A little bit more scary, right? And I feel a little bit more vulnerable. And then it's like, okay, did the sky fall? Because if the sky fell, or it feels like it's gonna fall, then maybe this is not a healthy relationship.

Mm.

Most people will say, no, the sky didn't fall. I'm overreacting, or I'm reacting from this old place. Mm-hmm. And it's like, ah, there's the magic. Great. That's the first piece of it. How can we do it differently? So, so the vulnerability and the authenticity is there without feeling attacked.

That makes a lot of sense. And I know a woman out there is thinking, how do I do it differently? But how do I do that?

Well, I have this magic wand in the back of my— no. Yeah, right. Because again, if it were that easy, you'd be doing it. And I mean, that, that's That's the thing. And in no way is this, this, you know, like, hey, just do this thing and it works. Yeah. It takes a lot of effort and it takes a lot of work and it takes being in a relationship with somebody who wants to bring out the very best in you.

Mm-hmm.

And you feel like you can learn to be your best self. And, and when women are in relationships where they feel like they can't show up and be their best and their person is not helping them to achieve that, it's very difficult to change.

Right, right. And so I think you need to ask yourself, am I in a relationship that doesn't allow me to do that, or am I censoring myself because I assume relationships don't allow me to do that?

Right.

Um, and then, you know, reality is, is we have to do the work, and the work looks like reaching out to help people sometimes, or reaching out for help.

Yeah.

For people that can help us do that introspection, help us learn how to be intentional, help us show up in a healthier way, which is about being authentic even though it's really scary, which is about telling, you know, speaking and explaining and sharing your feelings even though that's really scary. It's really about doing the scary things that make you feel vulnerable and creating a different script, I imagine. About what's real in this, in this time and place in your life compared to, to then.

Yeah, absolutely. And, and the expectations that we have internally that we put on ourselves being women, where we're supposed to do it all and wear all the hats and be great at everything, and the expectations that society puts on us and what that looks like, and that's gonna depend on, you know, where somebody lives and who they are and how they see themselves in the world and their own background and history, right? And culture and all of it. All of that comes into play. And there's a lot of times there's this huge disconnect for women.

Mm-hmm.

And this idea of, well, I'm supposed to be super fill in the blank, right?

Mm-hmm.

And, and so it's very difficult, I think, for women to come in In a relationship and say, I'm willing to be vulnerable, because what that exposes is, well, maybe I'm not super at this one piece. Mm-hmm. And so it kind of goes against this messaging that we're brought up in of like, oh, well, you're supposed to do it all. You're supposed to be the perfect mom. You're supposed to be the perfect boss or the perfect employee or the perfect daughter or the per— it's not possible.

It's not, it's not. And, and being vulnerable does make you— if you have issues in this area, it raises up that feeling, but the real me is not good enough.

Yeah,

right. So I don't want to do that because the real me is not good enough. And that's the thing that you got to challenge.

Yeah.

Yeah. So we didn't really talk any about somatic stuff, and maybe I'll, I'll bring you on another time to talk about the body. And how trauma affects our body, because that definitely also then, of course, affects the way we show up in the world and relationships.

Absolutely.

Joelle, what's one last word you would give to a woman who might be listening to this podcast and thinking, oh, I think that maybe some of my experiences in childhood are affecting the way I'm showing up in relationships? Maybe she's just realizing this for the first time, or maybe it's just a reinforcement like, yeah, I know, I know my stuff, I got to work on that stuff, right? Um, maybe it's not all him. Maybe there's some of me there too. What, what one last word would you give to her if she's in that space of just like feeling it and recognizing it but not really sure what to do now?

Yeah, and I appreciate you bringing up the somatic. I'd love to be on the show to talk about that. I think it's holistic— mind, body, and spirit. I really do. I think healing is holistic. And so I think the place for me that I always like clients to start with, with is that going back to that self-talk and notice—

You're speaking my language.

Going back to that self-talk and just where is that coming from? And is that true for me now? Right. And maybe doing— if you're, you know, people are open to it, doing a little journaling. If you're doing it on a computer, please password protect it. If you're Writing it on paper, keep it safe or throw it away. But, but doing, doing some journaling and seeing if you can get some movement, right? Holistically, mind, body, spirit. See if you can get a little movement on it. And by recognizing it and hearing that, that negative self-talk and really starting to question it, right? Put it on trial. Is that true? Why is that true? When was, when was the last time that was true? Like, really just kind of come at it, see if it starts to break apart and it's easier to make some changes, right? The other piece of it is find providers, find a clinician, a psychologist, a doctor, find somebody that, that you connect with. Like, I tell clients all the time, it doesn't matter who I am and what I've done, and, and I'm very blessed with getting to do some cool things. But if we don't connect and, and they don't trust me, it doesn't matter who I am. I'm good. It's not gonna work. And so I'm constantly checking in with my clients. How's this going? What do you need? I'm constantly telling clients, interview providers, ask them the hard questions, right? Right. If you feel good about your interaction with them, give it a try, you know? And so I think women just starting out is— it's very scary. It's very, very scary. And that is absolutely okay. It's absolutely okay.

That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Challenge your self-talk and get some help for some clarity. And I love the journaling piece because we learn so much by being able to write down or speak the things that we're thinking and feeling. Joelle, thank you so much for coming today. How can people get ahold of you? How can people work with you?

Oh my gosh, I know you're gonna drop it in the show notes. It's my name, so

yeah,

you don't have to spell it out. I know, so it's Joelle Raybould Melitus. But we have— we're on, on all the socials, and I know we'll link with each other. Um, but people can email, they can DM. We always have, um, a free journal gift for your listeners, so just send us a DM or an email saying we'd love the journal, we listen to So that's the easiest way. And I respond to emails and we respond to messages too.

Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming today.

Thanks for having me.