Let's Say Their Name: Holding Space for Parents of Loss

This is not a podcast about being broken, although you may have been. This is a podcast about strength for women who find themselves in difficult relationships, including that sometimes difficult one with yourself. We'll look at your relationship through a lens of psychology, faith, and a little dash of my own kind of feminism. We're not fixing them. We're fixing you. And that changes everything. Welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. Save yourself, heal your relationships. Listen in. Hi, it's me, Dr. Zoe, and I'm so glad you're here today. This month, October, is Infant Loss Awareness Month. And so in honor of Infant Loss Awareness Month, I'm having a guest. Her name is Kris Mannion, and we're talking about infant loss. You may have a friend, a family member who has lost an infant, had a miscarriage, or lost a baby, or maybe you have. And today we're going to talk about We're gonna honor it, and we're gonna talk about the process of dealing with your loss. And we're gonna talk about strategies that work and maybe some that we need to rethink. And for those wanting to be a good friend to someone who has lost, we're gonna explore things like what's good to say, what's not good to say. How can we honor someone who's lost a child in the best way possible? So Chris Meanyon, she is, uh, a multi-award-winning author. The parable of the talents drives her to share God's gifts of faith and inspiration. She founded the Destined chapter of Word Weavers and belongs to multiple writing communities including Advanced Writers and Speakers Association, Hope Writers, and Christian Indie Publishing Association. She enjoys photography, the Gulf Coast, kayaking, beach walking, baking, and making new friends. Most of all, she loves to teach. You know, usually I share my wins and my fails, but after listening to this episode, it was just— it was so rich, and I just feel like my trivial wins and fails of the week just don't need to be shared this week, so I'll share them next week. So listen in to this wonderful conversation I had with Kris Mannion. Kris, I'm so glad to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for joining us.

You're welcome. I'm excited to be here.

Yeah, me too. I'm glad we could make it work. We had some difficulty on my part as usual in the scheduling, so I'm glad we were able to make it work. So can you share with my audience about the story behind your book and the work that you do in infant loss awareness?

I have 2 children, and our daughter had recently told me that she had conceived a 3rd child secretly and didn't tell her daddy. So we were heading over to visit them. Both children live close to each other. So I said, well, she said, can you stop in so I can tell daddy? So I said, sure. So we stop in, I give her a hug. The little 2 little guys are like, you know, Grandma brought her book to read. And so yeah, yeah, yeah. And I whisper in her ear, "How did the doctor's visit go?" Because she wanted to get an ultrasound, and she shook her head and looked down. And the boys then pulled me away to read a book to them. And the next time I could look up, she was in the kitchen. My husband was hugging her, patting her back, and she was sobbing into his shoulder. So the good news that we had come to hear had changed,

and.

So we grieved with her for a day and then moved on to our son's home where we were originally going to visit. And that evening, this is a story of life and death.

Right.

That evening, after dinner, we sit down and we're still reeling from these news, and our son just blurts out, as some guys do when they don't have a smooth way of segueing into any topic. We're expecting another baby. Oh. And we were stunned. And I think our faces must have shown it because they talked to us afterwards about how, you know, you kind of had an odd reaction to our really, you know, exciting news. So apparent. And so we that night laid in bed and held hands and said, how do we do this? Because each couple asked us not to say anything because it was early. So the pregnancy on my daughter's part was 8 and a half weeks. The pregnancy on my daughter-in-law's part was 8 and a half weeks. They had due dates within a week.

Oh my God.

So one baby, both babies were conceived same time. One stayed here on earth. One went up to heaven. And so after our visit with our son, I got a call before we headed back home from my daughter asking, um, If I could please just come back to be with her. She is a strong woman, but she said it just feels too awkward that there is a little one inside of me that's no longer alive, and I have to wait for my body to release it, and it's not doing that well. So I went, of course, and we got wine and chocolate and movies.

Aw.

And we snuggled and waited for What the body knows how to do.

Yeah.

And so one night there were sobs and I went home after that. And so about a year later, this story drops into my mind in full rhyme. And I've done other children's stories and I'm still like years later working on the rhyme cuz it's not quite right. And this was just a gift from heaven is the only way I know how to say it. I'm, I wrote it down and then I sat on it for like years because I, you know, we're all hesitant to put our work out there. We're our worst critics.

Yes.

And the parable of the talents is one of the things that I've always been worried about, that I'm not using all of my talents to the best of my ability. And the ending of that parable isn't good for the guy who buries the talents. So, um, one day I got a little tap on a spiritual tap on the shoulder that told me these books that I had written and stored in my computer files were, was my buried talent and I needed to do something about it or there, or else.

Yeah.

So I, I, uh, quickly did, got it in front of a publisher. I put 5 different books in front of her. She took all 5. 3 of them she liked, 2 of them she gave me critiques on about what I— why they weren't working. And I was like, and it was just done within a year. 2 of my children's books are out, and this was the first one. So I'm thinking I've written a children's book, and I'm very happy because I love angels. Mhmm. And I, and people, lots of people ask about, you know, babies going up in heaven, what, you know, all that. And so I thought, this is a beautiful story of these children who were being carried down from heaven by their angels. to this toy store that was closed for the night. Right. And the adults who walked by couldn't see the light.

Yeah.

In this store, in the store. But the children could because it was heavenly light. And so they played all night after the angels got all the toys off the shelves. And, and then they were whisked home when the angels who were guarding the doors saw that dawn was about to break. And so they said, gotta get 'em back up to heaven.

Yeah.

So I thought it was a simple, easy story. And then The reviews started happening on Amazon of these moms who had lost little ones telling me how, what great peace they had received from this book. And I was stunned and I got goosebumps and I was like, I thought I was writing a children's book and here God obviously uses us in his, you know, he has much greater vision and I was happy to have been used. But now that I knew it was being helpful to moms and adults and parents and grandparents who have lost children at various stages, from abortion and miscarriage through stillbirth and NICU deaths. And this one mom had a 6-year-old, and she told me every night she went to bed after he had died that she wondered what he was doing up in heaven when they went to sleep. And she read this book and she goes, now I know. And I was like, and I mean, it's not a declarative thing, but there could be field trips. that angels take children on, you know, to toy stores or whatever. And I mostly think God gave the toy store image because we all know how children love to play with toys. And it makes us smile instantly. And he wants to relieve the grief and give us his peace that everything is well in heaven. And the babies are carried so tenderly. This Jack Foster, the illustrator, did a beautiful job.

He did.

Just tenderly holding them. I thought they were going to ride on the angels' backs. From heaven. And he had a different vision. That's what's a wonderful thing about collaborating as a child, a children's book writer, is you're forced— unless you are not an artist, you're forced to collaborate with someone else's image and vision. And the two combined make it one. It's kind of like a marriage, where the two become one. So that is how the story became what it is today, both for children and adults.

I have to tell you that when I read this beautiful book, the first thing I thought is, this isn't a children's book. I feel like it's a book for adults. I, when I thought of who I would share this with, I thought of my mom friends who have lost a child. And so, I mean, it's, it's a beautiful children's book, but I very much see how this is a book for the adults because actually the adults lose more and more often, right, than children lose friends or, or, you know, are aware necessarily of young siblings that they might, might have lost. And so I think that, like you said, the comfort that this can give to a parent is, is so deep. And it's really a beautiful, beautiful book. I didn't expect— I thought I was just going to skim through it like I do a lot of books when people come on podcasts. But I really, I really sat and read the whole thing, and I'm excited to share it with women I know who have lost, who have lost a child. So thank you. Thank you for listening and being the steward of that.

You're welcome.

So I wanted to talk because really I want to honor Infant Loss Awareness Month, and I want to help people who have either lost a child and even more those who know someone, or as you pointed out before we even started talking, will know someone in the future. Right. So let's talk about it because it's really interesting as you shared your story about your 2 children, one having lost a child and one having a child at the same time, and the secrets. Right. And I want to talk a little bit about why is it important to break that taboo against infant loss or miscarriage?

Well, the silence is where the parents who are grieving start to fall into a dark place. Most people don't talk about it, who are— have not lost the child because they don't know what to say. But the parents, often when they try to talk about their loss, get too many—

placating. Yeah.

Yeah. Or all the little things that, you know, you shouldn't ever say to people like, oh, you know, you'll, you'll have another, or this happens to everybody. It's not a big deal. They diminish the grief. And we don't do that for any other loss.

You're right.

You know, other than like a goldfish. I mean, but that's how we kind of treat it in American culture. Not so much in Europe or in Asia, but the Americans just kind of are uncomfortable with death, and especially little death. And we have this whole, you know, current conversation about which side of pro-life are you on or pro-choice and the fact that you can just get rid of one and have another later on, or this is God's plan, you know, which all of those kinds of things, it wasn't meant to be. Those statements feel like a knife in the heart of a parent who has lost a child who spent months or, you know, the whole 9 months. And there's There's over 2.6 million stillbirths.

Wow.

According to the World Health Organization. That's a lot of time where you're— as a mom, you're thinking of everything you eat, everything you drink, how you move, what you're lifting. Are you, you know, all of that, and then playing music for your child and talking to the baby and all those things. It's a long relationship. Even for my daughter was 8 months, 8 weeks along. That Everything about you and your body is now about somebody else. And that when you make a comment like, well, you know, good thing you weren't far, you know, further along, or you'll be fine in a few days. That's just— it's no, you're not going to be fine. And it's not God's plan for you to, you know, be in grief or for babies to die necessarily. We don't know what God's plan— who are we to say what God's plan is? But that silence hurts. And so they grieve more and more in aloneness and privacy. And it's like a cocooning going in the wrong direction. What we need is people helping us, people reaching out and asking us to tell the story of the baby. Is there a name for the baby? I mean, what, just anything about that, let them talk. That's what they need. Being silent and trying to avoid them because you don't know what to say, that's cruel to them and it hurts and they don't feel like anybody understands. And we all know what that's like when you're in a room full of people who don't understand you.

It's very isolating. You know, I have to say that when my daughter who has a rare genetic disorder, disorder, Prader-Willi syndrome. When she was born and she was in the NICU for a couple of weeks and nobody kind of knew what was going on, somebody said that to me, that, oh, well, you can have another one. You can have another. And she was alive. She's still alive today. But I remember how angry I got at that statement. And I know it was said in an attempt to make me feel better.

Right.

But I remember I got so angry because my thought was, she's not replaceable. Right? She's not— it doesn't matter. I could have 10 more and she's not replaceable. So I'm glad that you said that. So the things that we shouldn't say are things like, you can have another one. It was God's will. It wasn't meant to be. You'll feel better soon. Those kinds of things don't help, even though to some extent they may be truths. They aren't helpful truths. When someone is grieving.

Correct. Some other things they say is maybe you shouldn't have done this, or maybe you shouldn't have done that. And there's a lot of guilt that people, especially with miscarriages or abortions, that these women carry because they think they've done something.

Of course.

They've done something wrong that caused— and that guilt—

That's part of the grieving cycle is that bargaining and the guilt. Yeah.

So some of these comments that we think we're making, we think we're trying to make it better. We want to make everything better, and we don't want to just sit comfortably with grief. And that's sometimes what we have to do. And so America doesn't, and so we say these dumb things, which really hurt and make someone feel like they are somehow guilty.

Or to blame.

Even if they know in their head,

right,

they're not, their heart Still holds this guilt and grief all mushed together.

And words are very powerful. Now, I have a client who is pregnant. I often do. And I'm very excited for her. And we're talking about, like, when are you going to tell and stuff? And her reaction is, oh, well, I don't want to tell until after the first trimester. My brother and sister aren't telling until after the first trimester. And I've always bucked at that because my response is, so if you lose the baby, And you've never even told anyone you were pregnant. You're gonna do this with zero support. Why, of all the things in your life, you tell people about, right? You share things so that you can have reciprocity in relationships so that you can support others and they can support you. Why would you not tell this thing? Because you might lose the baby. I'm thinking if I lost a baby, I would want my friends and my family there to be a part of the grieving process. So I, I think it's also kind of, I mean, it's on both sides. Yeah. The, I don't want to tell because if I lose the baby, then I don't know what that means. And then I don't know what to do. So I wonder how we could encourage people maybe to go ahead and tell the early pregnancy so that they're not grieving in silence.

It's such an excellent point you bring up, Zoe, because the medical people often tell us you might want to wait.

Yeah.

Because 1 out of Mm-hmm. Pregnancies often end in miscarriage. So that's— those are low odds, but they're still— that's still a significant number of— and so the idea of wait until the risk has passed says we want to put our best foot forward or we want to, you know, not bring anybody down, which is this, let's just put our 2 feet in our boots, pull them up by ourselves, and this whole American, I can tough it out attitude piece, which is not a woman's experience.

No. And it minimizes early loss if it does happen.

Correct. Yeah. And so there's beautiful rituals that we can do and create that don't have to be alone if you do include the family and let us know. See, both of our— this book probably would not have happened if my daughter hadn't brought us into that conversation.

Absolutely.

And it was, uh, and the unique place of having to hold on one hand a death and on the other hand a life. And she did conceive 2 months later. And so she had this, uh, it was an interesting and challenging time for both moms. Because they were very aware of, eventually they told each other.

I was going to ask, did you eventually share that with your children?

And then they found out we could keep a secret for a long time. And so there, there was a, an unusual bonding and, and not because one was, when we celebrate the one's birthday, that's also the birthday of the one that we lost that's now up in heaven. And so there's just a lot, but if we didn't know that, there would have been this quiet, silent agony on one side. And that's where a lot of disharmony and division happens in families or between couples or between friends, because we haven't shared and we've tried to just buck up on our own. And nobody knows unless we tell them that we are still grieving. And to say, well, just get over it is, you know, that's Mm-hmm. That's nothing we should ever say about a relationship with another person. Mm-hmm. You know, whether we grieve the, the death of something or even just a friend who's just moved on and, you know, what, what connected us isn't as strong a bond anymore, that we still miss that union and that relationship. And that's what a pregnancy is. It's a relationship. And it's not just with you and your baby and your husband. It's also a relationship with God because he's the co-creator of, you know, every child. So it's, It's deep.

Absolutely.

Spiritually as well as physically and emotionally. It's just the whole psychosexual everything part of who we are, especially as women. And to not share that may be a disservice to everyone.

I absolutely think so. Yeah. So can we talk about the myths of those who are grieving? What are myths that we tend to believe about people who are grieving?

Well, one is that if we mention the baby's name, it's going

to

make them sadder. And the fact that we don't mention the name is what actually makes people sadder. All parents want the life of that child, however short it was, to have mattered, you know, to not be forgotten. So by saying the child's name instead of avoiding it, We're actually honoring the parents and helping them in their grief and giving them a leg up that says, we remember, even though he's not— he or she isn't here anymore, we remember your baby and saying the names. So that's a myth. That they'll get over it, that time heals everything is another myth.

Is it ever.

Most parents who've lost a child will tell you, you never get over it.

No.

There's a hole in your heart. that will never completely heal. You learn how to live with it, but getting over it isn't something that is going to happen in this lifetime.

And I think some people don't want to get over it. It's okay to figure out how to integrate the grief into the tapestry of your life, right? Because it mattered. And it's always going to matter. It's a part of who you are. It's a part of your experience. And it was A real person. And so it's okay.

It is. And it deepens you.

Yeah.

You know, when, when you have a, anytime we lose someone, we're, we look for someone else that we know who's experienced loss.

Right.

Because the people who haven't say these things in a light manner because they don't know what it means yet.

Right.

It's, you know, they're like, they're like virgins in the death experience. They wanna be able to sympathize, but they don't really know. And so we look for someone who has that wisdom, has gone through this process, and each process is different. Everyone grieves differently, but there's still a knowing and a wisdom, a body, mind, soul wisdom that comes from someone who has experienced grief and loss that gets to share that. It's kind of like fertilizer in the garden.

You know, that is so, so deep what you just said, because I've experienced that in my life. It wasn't until I lost my father that I had any clue about what it really means to lose in that way. But once you do, you're right, you do develop a deepness and a wisdom. And all of a sudden, I could talk to people in a real way when before I was probably just placating, right? Right. And, you know, the other thing, and I was just telling my children because we just recently lost my mother-in-law. And I was telling them, you know, now you have a granddaddy in heaven. Now you have a grandma in heaven. And there's something about having a connection with someone who is now in heaven that I think connects us more to heaven in some way, shape, or form. It's just, it's just different. So I'm just, I'm glad you mentioned that because I've, I've experienced that and felt that deeply in my life after having loss when I went, you know, 38 years of my life with no loss. And that's real. It does change you. And I think it changes you in a beautiful way. It's a bittersweet way. But it's not something you want to get over. Right?

Right.

Yeah.

It's kind of like there are trees that have lost limbs or have been bent with wind. And there's a beauty to the, the new shape. Or in the desert, there are cacti where they've lost arms, and there's a black mark where the arm used to be. And I wrote a poem once to the cacti about, I see your loss and I see the prickly places. And where there aren't the prickly places are at the very base where it's just coming out of the ground. And so where it's trying to grow and where it's trying to root itself in a new reality without that person that we just lost. So the other myth that often happens is that you can always have another.

Right.

Once I became aware of the second audience level of this book, the adult audience part, I connected with a lot of moms who were very public about their miscarriages. And my daughter has moved on to be a doula, a postpartum doula. And she specifically put miscarriage as part of her bio so that people know, just kind of like we just talked about, that there is a sensitivity here to Miscarriages and what it means to go through that and then to conceive afterwards. But you can always have another isn't true. Some people have gone through 4, 5, 6, 7 miscarriages or more and cannot conceive.

Sure.

And it's not something we should ever say to another person because you don't know the circumstances and you are not God who can say, oh, yeah, I'll give Abraham a son when he's 90, uh, 400 years old or whatever. You know, we can't, we can't, we don't have that kind of power. Um, and to say that, uh, is again, it's salt in a wound. It's, and the, and the parents know it's not true. There isn't a guarantee. And as we get older, it's less and less possible. So there's just a lot of, or, um, the spouse is no longer with us. I mean, there's, it just, you just, there's so many factors we don't know. That those are 3 off the top of my head. I could say, let's avoid those myths. And

yeah. So we've talked about secrets, secrecy surrounding miscarriage and infant loss. We've talked about the things we shouldn't say and the myths. Let's talk about what do we do? What are the wonderful things that we can do to support and help and encourage and nurture someone who has lost an infant?

Well, one is if you are a fixer kind of personality, just know and tell yourself, this is not something I can fix.

Yeah.

Let that go. Release it. Surrender it. Give it as a prayer to God and close your mouth when you try to— when you think you're going to try to fix it. Sometimes There are no words that are going to fix it, but your presence, your willingness to sit and just be with a person who's grieving is huge. And the Jewish tradition has this for days afterwards. You sit shiva, I believe is what it's called, right? Yes. And that's all that it is. And that's all that it needs to be. And it is enough. Just to have someone sit. We don't have to always have words. And I'm a word lover. I write. I play with words like artists play with chalk and paint and pastels and everything. And the other one we talked about generally is to speak the child's name if they've given a child. Now, in some miscarriages, they haven't named a child, and even encourage them maybe to name the child even posthumously, but to speak the child's name. And to say things like, instead of trying to have a fixed statement, say something like, tell me about—

Be curious.

Right. Or tell me about your dreams for them. Or how it was. Was the baby active? If it was a miscarriage, if it wasn't a stillbirth, tell me about your time with that little one. And that just— their story will pour out. And that heals. That's self-healing from them. And all you're doing is listening and just giving them that open-ended question instead of a yes or no.

You

know, I'm sure you're still feeling bad. Yes, that's not a good question. But tell me about, or what would you like me to know about your little one?

Mm-hmm.

It's a beautiful way to allow some healing to happen. And then affirm them. Just affirm what they're feeling instead of trying to deny it or put a Band-Aid on it. They Just say something like, you know, God loves you, even in your pain. And sometimes one of the— trying to remember, there's a saint. I want to say she's Saint Teresa of Lisieux, but I could be wrong. She said that sometimes God prefers when we gently turn over our suffering and hurt to him more than when we say nice things to him about how we love him and everything, that, that is actually a more cherished conversation and friendship when we give over that suffering and that grief. And so by encouraging them to just— that you're honoring their emotions, it feels so affirming to us. And it— and we melt instead of having to brace ourselves against all these harsher kinds of things people say, here's a person that's honoring how I'm feeling. And there's nothing better in the world. I mean, that's what friends do. That's why we like to be with friends, because they just get us and they don't argue about how we're feeling. They just go, tell us more. And those are some of the more positive ways to affirm and to help healing and to acknowledge. This little life.

I love that. That is so beautiful. And as you're talking about feelings and bringing them to God, I often talk about the reality that God's not afraid of our anger, and he can take it. We can lay all of it at his feet. And often we feel like, oh, we shouldn't be angry at God, but anger is a part of grief. It's a natural part of grief, and you can give that to him too. And so I think encouraging that, you know, not just taking your grief, but also taking your anger, because It's not fair. I mean, life isn't fair. We know that. And yeah, there may be some bigger, better reason that we'll never understand till we're not here anymore, but it's okay to be angry that this happened to you, angry that you lost.

Absolutely. You know, Lot in the Bible comes to mind where he was this very holy man and God held him up to Satan. It's like, look at my, you know, look at my great Lot, you know, he, and Satan was like, yeah, well, that's because he's had an easy, soft life. You know, you've given him everything. And so God allowed everything to be taken from him. Including the loss of his entire family and then including all kinds of physical ailments. And Lot got angry.

Yes.

Am I saying that right? All of a sudden I

go, no, that wasn't Lot. That was—

who am I thinking of? He sat on the ash heap. Job.

Job. Yes, that was Job.

I was like, okay, I'm saying it going, wait, no, Lot.

And I was like, yeah, no, yeah, Lot's wife turned into salt.

Right. We have a statue somewhere with that one. Job.

I understand. Yeah. It just—

and the Lord didn't argue about that. He just, he gets it. You know, he—

He created our psyche, our human emotions. God actually—

And he made us in his own image. So he gets angry too. We've got examples. When we're speaking to someone who's mourned a loss, that's God. He loses us all the time when we turn our backs to other people. So he knows loss. And he knows grief and he knows the anger. So, yes.

Chris, thank you. This has been just really so helpful. I haven't lost a child. I've had friends who have lost children in pregnancies. And even still, for me, this was, this was really helpful. Can you say one last word of encouragement for someone who has either lost a pregnancy or an infant or a child, or for someone who knows someone who has?

Absolutely. I'm speaking to you right now, whoever is listening, and acknowledging the wound in your heart, this tender place that your love hurts, and your arms want to be wrapped around the person that you miss. And I know that God's love Can and does fill that space. And yet there is still this emptiness. The arms are empty. There is no one to watch growing up. And I just want you to know there are people out here who understand that loss, and we grieve with you and we pray for you and we lift you up in this very moment to God's good grace and his healing power and his healing light. And for those who haven't experienced a loss yet, there's something that you could do that's really easy. Simply a purchase of a book like this one or others, where it's a sneaky way of having like some greeting cards ahead of time that we know we have birthday cards or sympathy cards on hand just in case. And so this is like a sneaky way of having something that doesn't openly say, I'm sorry for your loss. But it has a story that soothes. And it's being used because I learned that it was so helpful to parents who have lost. It's being now used in pregnancy crisis centers around the country. So even if you don't know someone who's lost a little one, or they haven't told you yet, be alert with your ears and your heart to perhaps know that that might be have happened without someone wanting to talk about it. But also know that you could donate a book, this book, to a pregnancy crisis center, to their counselors. One of the moms, when I did that, the counselor wrote back and she said this, I had a mom here, she's been here before, and she opted to have an abortion the first time, and she's conceived again, and she's trying to decide what to do with this pregnancy. And so after some counseling, we asked if she wanted to read this book, and she read the book and cried and said it was the first time that she felt peace about her decision about her abortion. She said that she never felt right about it, but now she knows God's peace. And she decided to go ahead and keep this next pregnancy. And whether— whatever their decision is, the peace of God is what Jesus said he wanted to leave with us. Peace I leave you, my peace I give you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. So it's one thing that you can do to help others. And those who are grieving, we know that that grief will always be there. And we are, we walk that path with you.

Thank you. That was, that was so beautiful. And your book is beautiful. So how can people get your book?

If you go to chrismanion.com, my website, C-H-R-I-S-M-A-N-I-O-N, there's links there to Amazon, Barnes& Noble, It's on— it's in many of the Christian bookstores. So I always like to support independent booksellers wherever we can. You know, we've lost some that may never come back. So let's, let's support the little businesses where we're able to, and to encourage any of the little bookstores or even children's stores where they carry clothes and play toys and some books to— do they know about this book? You know, to put that in there, because the moms who go in there, You know, 1 out of 4 may be carrying a loss that they're not comfortable talking about yet. And this may be a way that they can begin to heal and begin to talk about it publicly.

Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on, Chris, and sharing your wisdom.

You're very welcome, Dr. Zoe. It's a pleasure.

Thank you. Thank you for listening to Stronger in the Difficult Places. New episodes go up on Tuesdays, Subscribe to my email list so that you can get some encouragement from me, and have a strong week. See you next week.