Loving A Narcissist Series #2 - The Five Types Of Narcissism And How They Show Up In Relationships

This is not a podcast about being broken, although you may have been. This is a podcast about strength for women who find themselves in difficult relationships, including that sometimes difficult one with yourself. We'll look at your relationship through a lens of psychology, faith, and a little dash of my own kind of feminism. We're not fixing them. We're fixing you. And that changes everything. Welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. Save yourself, heal your relationships. Listen in. Hey there, welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. I'm your host, Dr. Zoe, and this is episode number 2 in the Loving Your Narcissist series. Today we're going to talk about the 5 types of narcissism and how they show up in your relationships, what that looks like in your relationships. But first up, my win and my fail. A number of new listeners have come in, so I just want to explain to you why I do my wins and my fails before I introduce the main topic of the episode. I feel that it's so important as women, as humans, for us to value and honor our wins and our fails. And so I model that for you. I take some time every week to reflect on what went well, what didn't go well. I choose to name them wins and fails because we don't always win, and sometimes we fail, and it's okay to acknowledge that. I think it's important to acknowledge that. And the reflection has helped me in my life, and I love it when my clients come and tell me, okay, here's my win and here's my fail, because I know it's helping other people too as well. We need to honor both. We're not perfect, and sometimes we do really great things, and sometimes we mess up tremendously. And so it's important for us to look at both so we can reflect, okay, Why did that work, and how did that work, and why is that failing, and what can I do about it? So my fail, and I feel like a little bit of vulnerability talking about this: I struggle with keeping up with my texts. I don't know if anybody else does, but this texting thing, and I'm realizing this is a me problem, and unlike the narcissist that we're going to be talking about today, I have to own up to it. I didn't have this problem with communication before texting. Now I feel like an old person. Before we had texting, we used to write letters. We used to call people. So anyway, way back then, decades ago, before we had texting, I didn't have a problem with communicating with my friends, but now it's different and I struggle. Not because I don't want to hear from people. I love hearing from my people. I love hearing from my friends. I love hearing from my family. And here's the thing, I like texting as a medium. I love it. I don't check my voicemail. That's another thing, but that's actually not something I even want to necessarily improve. I have it on my outgoing. If you really want to get ahold of me, text me, because I don't listen to my voicemail until it starts alerting me that they're full. But texting, it's convenient. I like it, but I struggle to find the bandwidth to respond. I need to build it into my calendar to take time every day to respond to incoming texts. And I need to be more intentional because it's costing relationships that matter to me. I do sincerely appreciate my friends who give me grace and don't take it personally if I haven't responded in a timely manner. But once again, I can't expect that of everyone, and I'm recognizing that. And so I think people know that they mean a lot to me. I think people know that they're a priority. But I also realize that in not responding to someone's text, I'm sending a different message. And so that is my fail, and I I'm working on that. So my win, my win is that I am in love with my literary agent, Keeley Boving. We seem to be working really well together and we'll be subbing to publishers very soon. I am having such a different experience with Keeley than I did with my last agent. And although it was hard, it was so hard to end that relationship. It was an unhealthy relationship for me. And the best thing I could do, and sometimes the best thing You can do for yourself is to end an unhealthy relationship, even though it's scary, even though it's hard, the other side is so much better. So my win is that I'm working really well with my agent and looking forward to this whole process moving forward. And I'm gonna keep sharing about it. So I know you guys have heard about it, you'll keep hearing about it. And I'm thankful that you guys are a part of my, my book journey. I would also like to acknowledge one of the most recent reviewers of my podcast. I try to pay attention to that, but this one was back in September. She didn't leave her name, but she said birth mother and thankful. And you left a really long review, and you found me, I think, on another podcast where I talked about being a birth mother and some of my adoption story. And I'm thankful that you are listening, and I thank you that you reviewed and rated the podcast. And you were also asking if I could talk a little bit more in the future, I think, of maybe sharing difficult things like your birth mother's story with your daughter and, and having those conversations with your teenagers, I'd be happy to do that. And for those listening, if you haven't already, please leave a review and rate my podcast if you feel like it's a good thing. If you don't like it, don't rate it, but rating helps others find the podcast and it helps it grow. So I'd appreciate it if you're listening and you like it, please rate and review. Okay. Up next, the 5 types of narcissism and how they show up in relationships. A good amount of the content that I'm talking about today comes from an article that was reviewed by Dr. Jeffrey Ditzel and Courtney Telawan. This is from Psych Central. I think it's called the, the types of narcissism or health and the types of narcissism. So it's important to know that I will use the term narcissist, but that can also refer to someone with lots of traits of narcissism or someone with an actual diagnosis of NPD, which is narcissistic personality disorder, which remember from the first episode of Loving a Narcissist, this is a mental illness. Now narcissism is also a spectrum disorder, so you can be severely narcissistic or you could be mildly narcissistic. And then there are traits. So most people who we talk about when we say, you know, that's a narcissist, we're talking about people who have traits of narcissism, people who may have a lot of traits of narcissism. Maybe they've got 3 or 4 on the diagnostic criteria, but I also want to make it clear that someone does not need a formal diagnosis for you to figure out if they're unhealthy for you. So the response on your part should be the same whether there's a formal diagnosis or whether you just see symptoms and signs, behavior that leans towards narcissism. So often when we think of narcissism, we think of just one type, generally a guy who's arrogant, who seeks admiration, maybe talks and thinks of only himself and lacks empathy or care. I am probably going to be using a lot of him rather than her, mainly one, because the majority of my audience is women, and two, because the majority of narcissists are men. This is probably changing and will continue to change, but right now that is the case. Not that women narcissists don't exist, they do, but the majority of narcissists are men. So I want to talk about the 5 types today because a lot of us think about that classic narcissism, which is really generally kind of the overt narcissism, and it can cause women to overlook what might be going on in their own relationships because maybe their partner or maybe someone they know, their boss or their mother-in-law, who knows, doesn't quite fit the classic idea. So I wanted to identify the 5 types of narcissism that might be happening so that you don't feel crazy if someone in your relationship doesn't quite fit that, but you know something's going on. So the 5 types, which means the 5 ways that narcissism can be exhibited, are overt, covert, antagonistic, communal, and malignant. Now remember, there's only one diagnosis, NPD, but there are different ways that people can demonstrate signs and symptoms of the diagnosis. So the first 2, overt and covert narcissism, you've probably already heard of. But I also want to address real quickly before we get into the types why a narcissist chooses you, because then we're going to talk about how the different types of narcissism show up in your relationships. A narcissist chooses an easy target, and I know that might be hard to hear, but people who are pathologically kind That's a term coined by Toni Overbay to describe a person who is kind to a fault. A narcissist might not be fully aware that they are looking for a victim, to use that word, so it's not necessarily a purposeful predatory thing, but they, they do it nonetheless. So they might just find themselves attractive to someone who's accommodating and someone who has a favorable view of them. Prime targets for a narcissist would be an empath, an easygoing person, a highly sensitive person, or a codependent. They basically want someone who is willing to take the blame, someone who's conscientious and will clean up their messes, because narcissists sometimes make a lot of messes. And I'm not talking about in the house, I'm talking about in life. And in the beginning, you might have been happy to do this, and so you may have been that pathologically kind person in the beginning. But over time— and I'm going to talk more about that later. And I'm actually going to do a whole episode about that, about recovering from pathological kindness, but that's for another day. So you might have been that person in the beginning, but over time you become the problem in the narcissist's eyes because you start to recognize that there's a lack of reciprocity in your relationship, and you might begin to push back. You might become resentful, and maybe you're not always the nice, accommodating person that you started out to be. They want someone who's going to put them first. And so they're going to decide that you are now the problem because you're not doing all those things that you used to do. If you have needs of your own, which newsflash, you do, they might call you selfish, demanding, and they might even, get this, they might even call you narcissistic for having normal, natural needs. They want someone who looks to them for their happiness because they're threatened by other people. They feel envious of other people. So this is why they might try to isolate you out of fear that you're going to find somebody better or that you're going to love someone else more and that they're going to lose their supply. So they do this by controlling you and divvying out their love and affection. I call this slot machine affection. The way that Vegas runs those slot machines, they run on what's called intermittent reinforcement. So the strongest creator of a behavior that you want is actually intermittent reinforcement. Intermittent reinforcement is a real reinforcement where they don't know when they're going to get it. And so they keep pulling the slot machine in Vegas, right? Because they know eventually they're gonna hit. And so what happens is— but most of the time they don't. So most of the time you pull that slot machine in Vegas, you get nothing. You get no reciprocity. But you know that you might, and so you keep pulling that switch because intermittently you're gonna get something. And when you do, there's a dopamine hit. When you do, there's this reinforcement. It's not healthy, we know that. But this is what happens in relationships with a narcissist is that they will kind of keep you guessing and wondering, when am— when are they going to show me the love? When are they going to give me the attention? When are they? And maybe they'll love bomb you. You'll get the over, you know, in a honeymoon phase. Maybe that will happen. Or if something happens, they'll come back to the honeymoon phase and love bomb you again, and then they'll take it away. And you're sitting there hitting the slot machine while they're asking you to keep doing everything. You give, give, give, give, give, and maybe today, maybe next week, maybe next month, I'm going to reinforce you. I'm going to give you something. I'm gonna, you know, show you some love and care and attention. And then you're just stuck in a relationship where you're, you know, really trying to get the breadcrumbs, right? So this is what happens, and this is why a narcissist picks you, essentially because you tolerate it. But it doesn't mean that you will always tolerate it. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you, but I'm hoping that right now you're starting to waken up and you can see. So the types of narcissism: 1, overt narcissism. Now this is the one that we all kind of know as like the classic narcissist. It's also known as grandiose narcissism. And this type of narcissism is what most people associate with narcissistic personality disorder. So someone with overt narcissism might come across as outgoing, arrogant, entitled, overbearing, having exaggerated sense of self-image, needing to be praised and admired. They're exploitative, they're competitive, they lack empathy. These people tend to be extroverts, and they can be really charming. People with overt narcissism are more likely to feel very good about themselves and less likely to experience those uncomfortable emotions like sadness, worry. There was a study published in 2018 that also suggests that overt narcissism might cause someone to overestimate their own general intelligence, their emotional intelligence, and their abilities. So, you know, they think they're really hot stuff. They think they're better than everyone else. Now, in relationships, the overt narcissism will initially be crazy charming. That's the love bombing, because overt narcissists are outgoing and they can even be very mesmerizing. They'll eventually, though, move to devalue you, which first starts in small ways. Now, I'm gonna go into detail in future episodes about the stages of a narcissistic relationship, so I'm not gonna go into deep details of that here. But eventually, he will create scenarios to see how you respond to them because he wants to know what he can get away with. So testing could be maybe an increase in their lying, getting angry for no reason, Discrediting something that they previously liked about you, obviously lacking empathy, but really they always lacked empathy, but now they're just not faking it anymore. They can make you question the security of the relationship, so you're always caught wondering, are we good? Are we not good? Is he staying with me? Is he not staying with me? Or he's— he puts you down. So that's how overt narcissism shows up in relationships. Covert narcissism, number 2, is also known as vulnerable narcissism and closet narcissism. Now, people with COVID narcissism don't fit the same pattern as overt narcissism, so it's harder to see. That's why it's called covert. A covert narcissist is a person who hides those more obvious signs of NPD, and while it can be more difficult to recognize, covert narcissism can be just as, if not more, destructive as overt narcissistic behaviors. Some common traits of someone with COVID narcissism might include Apparent low self-esteem, higher likelihood of experiencing anxiety, depression, and shame. They might be an introvert. They're insecure. They're defensive. They're avoidant. They have the tendency to play the victim. They're the consummate martyr. So the world is out to get them and everything is someone else's fault. And they're still very self-focused, it's just in a different way. Now also, it's important to know that research shows that the, those categories of COVID and overt narcissism are not always mutually exclusive. So in other words, someone with overt narcissism might go through a period where they show more signs of COVID narcissism. So remember I said that covert narcissists are the martyr. They expect others to care for them or solve their problems, but they have zero empathy for others' thoughts, needs, or feelings, and they certainly aren't reciprocating or helping anyone else unless they perceive a gain for it. I think I'll talk about that a little bit later. So they also use guilt trips and shame to control others. Shaming is a tactic that narcissists use to basically like shore up their sense of an elevated position in relation to others. So the overt narcissist might be more obvious in their approach to gaining leverage, such as openly or explicitly putting you down, being rude, criticizing you, and being sarcastic. The introverted or the COVID narcissist may have a more gentle approach to explain why something is your fault and why they are not to blame. They might even pretend to be a victim of your behavior or engage in emotional abuse to put themselves in a position to receive like reassurance from you or praise from you. They will also create confusion. So they're not always sneaky, but some covert narcissisms really do take joy in creating confusion. It's kind of like, you know, someone who just runs in and like throws a monkey wrench in everything and runs out and just sits and watches all the chaos that they just created, smug, looking at the chaos. So a covert narcissist needs to use these tactics because once again they need to elevate themselves and maintain power in the interaction. So if they can get you to question your perception, then it allows them To continue to manipulate and exploit you. They will also procrastinate and disregard. Now, not all procrastinators are narcissists. I'm a procrastinator and I lean a little towards the pathologically kind. So because their need of self-importance reigns supreme, covert narcissists will do whatever they need to do in order to keep the focus on themselves. So while an extroverted narcissist might blatantly push you aside or manipulate you, the COVID narcissist is a professional at not even acknowledging you at all. They're gonna be giving you the cold shoulder on the regular. They might stand you up on a date. They might wait until the last minute to respond to your texts or emails. They might always show up late or never confirm plans with you. That's the procrastination I'm talking about, and the procrastination is in their favor. They don't have to commit to you, and they can keep you with that slot machine waiting to see. Right? They don't have a regard for your time or your interests, and they leave you feeling very small, unimportant, and irrelevant. Now, when it comes to giving in general, narcissists are not givers. They find it difficult to put energy into anything that doesn't serve them. Now, a covert narcissist might present themselves in such a way that they look like they are giving, but their giving behaviors always have the intent of getting something in return. They're not going to do anything for you unless there is a really big or clear gain. That they're going to get out of it. The intent of giving for a covert narcissist is always more about them than it is about the other person. They are also unfortunately really good at emotional neglect. They don't build and nurture emotional bonds very well with people, and the COVID narcissist is no different. They might appear kind and they could appear less obnoxious than the overt narcissist, but they're still not emotionally responsive or reciprocal in any way. They tend to find it difficult to compliment you in relationships because they're so focused on themselves, and they don't want to build you up too much because they don't want you to see behind the curtain and know what they really fear is that they aren't worthy. So the next one is the antagonistic narcissist. This is really kind of a subtype of overt narcissism. But the way that this behavior pattern demonstrates itself is through rivalry and competition. So in this relationship with the antagonistic narcissist, you're often going to have a sense that they're competing with you, even when it's never said. And of course, they're going to then in turn, if you mention like, I feel like you're competing against me, or it's not a competition, they're going to accuse you, turn around and accuse you of competing with them, which is really one of the hallmarks of narcissism. They often accuse you of the very behavior that they're doing. So with an antagonistic narcissist, there's a lot of one-upping, or they find glee in letting you know that someone else is better than you at some skill that maybe they know is important to you, and they love to argue. You find a higher rate of antagonistic narcissists in the field of litigation law and debate for very understandable reasons. Some features of antagonistic narcissism include the tendency to take advantage of others, tendency to compete with others, disagreeableness or proneness to arguing. There was some research in 2017 about facets of narcissism and forgiveness, and what they found was those with antagonistic narcissism reported that they were less likely to verbally forgive anyone. Number 4 is communal narcissism, and I personally think this is the most insidious one, and it is a subset of COVID narcissism. So a communal narcissist is a person who wants other people, community, to see him or her as a very helpful and kind person. This type of narcissist desires sympathy, connection, and friendliness. He doesn't seem like the outgoing, you know, overt narcissist, but he wants to be seen as very powerful and as the smartest person in the circle. So a communal narcissist is one who wants to be seen as the most loving and caring person Someone with communal narcissism will be seen as someone who values fairness, and they're likely to see themselves as altruistic. They can become easily morally outraged. They describe themselves as empathic and generous, which is interesting because remember narcissists really struggle to feel any kind of apathy. They react strongly to things that they see as unfair. So what makes communal narcissism different from genuine concern with the well-being of others? The difference is that For people with communal narcissism, social power and self-importance are the driving factor. That's the major playing role in their desire to help. So they might seem like they have a strong moral code or care for others, but then you could start to notice that the way that they treat others doesn't match up with what they say their beliefs are. Unfortunately, communal narcissists are often pastors, priests, cult leaders, And that just breaks my heart. At least with the politicians and the lawyers and the celebrities, you can see this coming and you can expect it to a certain extent. But with religious leaders, we're often blindsided and gaslighted just because of who they are. The 5th type is malignant narcissism. So when we talked about narcissism being on the spectrum, malignant narcissism is kind of the most severe form of narcissism, and it also causes more problems for the person living with it than some of the other ones. With malignant narcissism, you're going to see vindictiveness. You might see sadism, where they're getting enjoyment from the pain of others. You might see aggression when they're interacting with other people. You could see paranoia or heightened worry about potential threats. Someone with malignant narcissism can also share some traits with antisocial personality disorder. So this means that someone with malignant narcissism could be more likely to experience troubles with substance use or get into legal trouble. So those are the 5 types of narcissists. If you recognize them in someone you're in relationship with, there are specific things that you can start changing about yourself. You won't change them, but working on yourself can help you improve your experience of your relationship and your own personal life experience. If you're in a close relationship with a narcissist, then you probably have some of those people-pleasing, empathic, pathologically kind characteristics or codependent behavior that I mentioned earlier that they tend to be attracted to. In future episodes of this Loving the Narcissist series, I'm going to include topics like learning to trust yourself, emotionally detaching from a narcissist, and how to engage in relationships Especially with a narcissist when you are pathologically kind. So tune into those future episodes, or if you're listening in the middle of 2023 and beyond, scroll up and find those episodes. I know the recognition that you're in relationship with a narcissist might be disconcerting at best and downright scary to others. I just want to let you know that there is hope, that there is healing for you. You are not alone. Just continue on this learning path, and you're going to be okay. Thank you for listening to Stronger in the Difficult Places. New episodes go out on Tuesdays. Subscribe so you don't miss my episodes, and sign up for my mailing list if you haven't already. Have a strong week.