More Than Sorry- When You’ve Committed Infidelity with Deborah Miller

Dr. Deborah Miller, I am so thrilled to have you today. I'm excited to share your wisdom and all of your advice with my audience, with my listeners. So welcome.

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I look forward to the conversation.

Right. So we're going to talk— I don't even know if I've titled this episode yet, but your book is called More Than Sorry. And essentially, I think that's a perfect title for this episode. And we're talking not just to the betrayer. So we're looking at cheating, we're looking at infidelity in a relationship, but your book specifically talks about to the betrayer, which I love. But I think that because everyone— I can't think of anyone that is not touched by infidelity. Either you've experienced it in your marriage or your relationships, you know someone who has. Um, I don't know anyone that isn't, so I think that this episode is going to be great for everyone.

Thank you. Yes, I'm realizing it's a universal issue that's so poorly addressed. I mean, we're very good at trying to support the wounded, the person that was betrayed, but we're still lacking in resources on how to help the person who actually stepped over the line or had the secret relationship, broke the trust. help them grow from their experience and maybe repair the relationship that they broke.

Yeah. And so today we are going to be talking to you if you are the betrayer, if you are the one that committed the infidelity, we're talking to you today. And like I said, everyone else will be able to get a lot from it as well. But first, before we get started, can you please share your win and your fail with my listener?

I'd be happy to. Well, my win is that about a year and a half ago, my husband and I decided we needed to move. We needed to move from the Midwest to Philadelphia to be closer to kids and grandchildren. We are now officially members of the caboose generation.

Ah.

And it's really been a positive experience to, to be more of a part of my family's life more frequently. I sit at a lot of soccer and lacrosse games. And that's been super. That's been great. Great phase of life. And we've actually mastered taking the train to New York and going to the Jersey Shore. So we're like, almost acclimated to being East Coasters.

You're like real East Coasters. What a huge— not yet.

Yeah, we're trying. We're really trying. Luckily, we have GPS on our phones. We're like, where am I? But yeah, it's great. It's been a great experience.

So what a huge transition. You know, my mom— I'm from Maryland. I live in California. So I didn't have that experience. Mom came and visited a lot, but obviously I didn't have her on a daily basis. So what a great gift that you are giving to yourself and your kids.

Exactly. It's been— I, I, like you, raised little guys without grandparents. You know, it's work. It's a lot of work. Yeah, yeah. It's a lot of— tag teams are needed. So, yeah.

That's great. Well, thank you for sharing, and congratulations on your win.

Thank you.

So can you please share a fail with my audience?

Well, I'm— it's a lot lighter, but last week I had some oral surgery and, you know, like most of us women were like, ooh, I can't eat very much. That's great. I'm gonna lose some weight. That's like my only— Yeah.

Getting sick, getting your teeth done. It's always like, well, at least I'm gonna get— lose a couple pounds out of it.

That's right. That's right. But sadly, I mastered how to eat chips anyway.

Oh no.

So consequently, no weight loss. And so that's my fail. That's my fail.

That's a fail fail. That's life. That's real.

Yeah.

I hope the chips were good.

Kind of were worth it, I guess. I don't know.

Well, thank you for coming on today. Thank you for sharing with my audience. And let's dive into this. So you wrote a book called More Than Sorry. Can you, can you tell me what made you decide I need to write a book For the betrayer, for the one who did the infidelity. I know there's a ton of books out there. I've referred them to my clients, books for the person who's been hurt, who's been betrayed, betrayed, who's been deceived. But I can't think of one I've read for the betrayer.

Yeah. Most of the books, like, like the, uh, After the Affair book, Janice Yancey, I mean, it's a kind of a classic. They do have a chapter in there.

Right. It's a kind of a couple book. Right.

Yeah. But it's not intensely. So as a therapist myself in private practice, I would work with couples and redundantly what happened, the person that was betrayed, understandably needed to vent and be emotional and ask why and lament and, you know, scream, yell, cry. And the person that cheated would sit there quietly, eyes down, mumbling, I'm sorry, I don't know why I did it. I won't do it again. I'm sorry. And it just was a stuck point, you know, and, and as a therapist, I kind of get sucked into the wounded person's side, you know, like, this person's horrible. And, you know, we got to fix him or her.

Right.

And so the reality is that person— to really repair a relationship, it's a two-sided story. And so that person that cheated has to do their work to really look at themselves. I call it navel-gazing. Look inward and try to figure out what the heck happened, and what they should do differently, and what they liked about themselves and the affair even. You know, just tell their story. Because what I found was most people who are cheated have never really told their story. Right. I mean, the story. I mean, not like, on Monday I did this, and Wednesday I did this, and this is how many hotel rooms I rented. Not that specific, but more about how did you feel? What was it like? What was it like to come home to your family after being with this other person? What did you discover about yourself? Why do you think, you know, what's your guess about why you stepped over the line? And, and how do you feel now about it? And, you know, just really let them talk about it. And it's very, it's impossible to do that in front of the person they cheated on.

Correct. Right.

Because they're, they're stuck in their own pain. And that person, I'm not minimizing that they need support, they definitely need support, because it is a trauma. It's a wound that is pretty deep. And they're going to need support and help. And they do need to cry, beat, scream, beat their fists and lament. They do,

right?

But maybe separately for a while until they can come together. Because they both have to deal with their own emotional pain, and regrets, and questions.

But we sometimes just demonize them. And so we don't see the humanity of them. And they don't feel that there's any space to talk about that, because they've been shamed and they've done wrong. And so they don't there's any space for their humanity either. And they feel very defensive. I, I, I, as a therapist, have been in that same place with you in the room with couples. And I feel so much for the one who's been hurt, right? And she— I'm just saying she, it's not always she— but she will ask the same question over and over and over. And the answer is never good enough.

Mm-hmm.

And I often feel like I want to say, and they said, I've answered you, I can't, you know, tell you anything else. And I wonder, and you know, that's a hard place to sit. It's a hard place to sit for the person who's been hurt. And you feel like, yeah, but I really want to know why. And you don't feel like you're getting any answer. Is there a perfect answer for someone who's been the betrayer? What can they say?

Well, that's the evolution of the answer. And that's the, the journey that they're on. And then you have to kind of coach both parties.

Mm-hmm.

That how I answer today, why did I cheat on you, is going to be different than my answer if I do some navel-gazing a month from now, 2 years from now, 10 years from now. I hope that I will continually be asked or ask myself that question, why did I cheat? And what did I learn? And what do I know now about myself? Um, what's my best guess? Because it is a guess. There's no black and white answer to this.

There's so many.

Yeah, there's all these different shades of it. And I think it's really hard because you're right, the person that was wounded wants to know why.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, in our training as therapists, we kind of were taught not to ask why, the question why, because there's usually a tone of, I know the answer I want from you.

Right. Yeah.

You know what, you know, and so I— there's an expectation that there is the perfect answer. But the ability for the cheater to learn the skill of empathy, which is a tough skill, because it's not only sensing what the other person is experiencing or feeling, but is able to use words to express it. So that it validates the other person. Because usually when we are in arguments or heated discussions, the person— we tend to repeat ourselves over and over again and louder and louder when we don't think we're being heard.

Exactly.

And so if we can figure out how to learn the skill of that, of saying, I get it, you're really ticked off at me because I betrayed our vow of our marriage, I broke your heart, I spent all this money on another person, I, you know, whatever it is, You need to validate it. And it works. I mean, that's the thing, you have to reassure the cheater. If you can really give a good empathetic response, it will quit, it will slow down the questions, it will de-escalate the emotions, it will allow them to have more, hopefully more curiosity of really asking why. What?

Yeah, I love that you said that because often And maybe someone, if you're the betrayer, you can utilize this as well. Often when I'm in therapy with a couple and, and someone's asking that same question over and over again, I will go ahead and state, I noticed you, you're asking the same question over and over again. And so I wonder, is there a deeper question you're really wanting to know?

Oh, that's beautiful.

Is there? And often she'll be able, or he'll be able to come up with that. And maybe what they really want is reassurance. Maybe what they really want is something else and they don't know how to ask the question. any other way. They're really just wanting to put their pain out there and know that the other person is feeling it and, you know, and healing it. Um, but I know also from, from the betrayer's point of view, it's so hard to be in a place of defensiveness, which is a natural state when you're being accused, and empathy. You've got to hold both of those.

That's an excellent way of saying it. Yes, I, I coach my clients to use 3 empathetic responses. Before you get to say your yes, but. Yes, but here's how I feel. Right. Because you're, again, trying to validate the other person. And that doesn't mean you never get to say your side. You get to, you know, share yours also, whatever it is you're feeling or thinking. But I think sometimes the why question— I love how you put that, Dr. Zoe— is, you know, what is your deeper question? But it's also, what is your statement?

Yes, yes. Right.

Perhaps it's not really a question. I just want to say again, I'm so damn hurt.

Right.

So mad at you.

Yeah.

And, you know, it's just a statement that they need to express, and they get to express. I mean, that's the other thing. I know it's exhausting for the person to listen to the habitual questions, the repetitive questions. And they have to be patient, and they have to accept that that's part of the healing process. Yet there's also some coaching I give them in terms of how do you not get hooked into answering detail questions?

Oh, let's talk about that.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, should we or shouldn't we answer those detail questions?

Uh, yeah, I mean, you kind of have to at some level, but after a while, it's not helpful.

Right.

It's just not helpful because it brings up pictures. And you're, again, you're trying to live in the present. You're trying to get couples to connect here now. And even though the past is huge and, and definitely sitting on their shoulders,

right,

but they need to sit in the here and now. And so when I coach the wounded person to say, instead of saying, I drove by that hotel today and I How many times were you in there? You know, for the person that was— that cheated to be able to say, ouch, I know, I bet seeing that hotel really brought back a lot of images and memories, and I'm really sorry. And that's all you say.

I like—

you don't answer the question of how many times did you rent the hotel room.

You talk to the pain.

You talk to the pain.

Yes, I love that. So in your book, you're really talking to the betrayer and you're recognizing and hoping— helping the betrayer to recognize that they've got work to do.

Yes.

What would you say for a woman that's out there and maybe her husband knows, maybe he doesn't, but she's been the betrayer and she is in a place of feeling, I'm sorry, I'm more than sorry, and I don't know what to do now. Can you talk about some of the work that she needs to do for herself?

Yeah. Well, I put 5 steps as the subtitle of the book, The 5 Steps to Deepening Your Apology. And so step 1 is empathy. Again, we already talked about that, but how to have empathy for the person you've hurt, and how to communicate it. But it's also having empathy for yourself. It's really asking or being curious as to what your motivations were, where you're at emotionally, spiritually, physically, you know, just really that kind of motion. And then the second step is the navel gazing. And that's a pretty big chapter, you know, you look at your— I love that.

I love that. I have to interject because I love that you call it that, because when we just go ahead and call it navel-gazing, then we're not going, oh, we're doing this again. It's like, yes, that's what it's called. We're doing it again. And we're continuing to look at it. I love it.

And I, I don't mean to mean in a narcissistic way. It's more of a curiosity, self-exploratory. And so with— within that is self— looking at your defense mechanisms, looking at your relationship history and patterns, looking at your attachment issues, looking at your personality style. So it's really just kind of doing a little psychoanalysis of yourself with some tools on how to look at yourself a little differently, and to get a little better understanding. Because the reality is we, we are attracted to people who are different than us. And so sometimes the shame game happens when we're— there's an implication that we are evil and Because we're not the same as our partner, or—

Right.

And so how to accept who we are, decide what you want to change, if anything, and tweak, tweaking that. But it's accepting your dualities. You aren't— there's the and. I am a really good mom, and I cheated on my spouse. I am a great therapist, and I don't always tell the truth. You know, I mean, there's There's— you can be both. It's not a black-white thing again. And then the third step is say it out loud, because there's so much secrecy. Well, that's the definition of an affair.

Absolutely. Yeah.

A relationship that's been secret. And so the secrecy has to be broken. And again, it's like a confession in the, you know, Catholic modality of saying it out loud. And there's something really powerful about that in terms of seeing the reflection, because most people A lot of people don't deal with their infidelity unless they're caught,

right?

Because we can play this head game. I, you know, I'm not hurting anybody. No one knows. But then once we're caught, there's this huge mirror that pops up that says, oh, this is what I look like to other people. Oh, you know, and that's really powerful in terms of us deciding how to change or what to change or if we want to change.

Do you think that— and I've heard different camps on this— Do you think that it's imperative that you tell your spouse if the affair is over and you're done and you're sorry, but he doesn't know?

That's something you have to explore in therapy. You do. I mean, you really do. Because it is— I mean, I've had clients where the person was like, what? I had no idea. And that was so shocking. And the The offender really wanted to confess just to get, you know, the guilt, release the guilt and shame.

And that's what I've heard, you know, in terms of the argument is that, you know, some people just want to tell their partner to assuage their own feelings. And is that loving to your partner if you're really doing it to make yourself feel better? Right. And then the other argument then is, but you need to, you have to have that openness and it's important. Um, you know, I'm kind of on the fence too. I've thought about both sides, and both of them make sense to me. And maybe it's really a case-by-case basis.

My guess is the person, even though they may not accuse or maybe not confront, they know at some level something's going on.

There's some knowing.

Yeah, there's some knowing. And so the triangulation is what you're trying to stop. You can't have intimacy in your primary relationship if there's a third party involved.

Correct. Right.

And so, you know, they will notice if that person quits their affair. And by the way, let's make sure we know that this is also online relationships. So emotional affairs,

yes,

emotional affairs. So they may not be physical, but there's again, a distraction, obsession with connecting with the person that they're online with. And so it's also making sure that those relationships are stopped. Also, again, if it's a secret, if you can, if you mutually agree upon, it's okay for you to have an online friend, Or it's okay for you to have online porn, then that's okay in your relationship if you both truly are comfortable with it.

Right. It's not a betrayal. Not a betrayal thing that you guys are doing in your marriage. Yeah. Yeah.

So the book, then the 4th step is set restitution goals. Well, how do I want to be different? What do I, you know, how do I want to change? And then last one is how to ask for forgiveness. And so I give examples of letters to write. That say more than I'm sorry, that say, here's what I want to share with you, what I've learned about myself and what I'm going to guess today as to why I cheated. And it just— and it expresses empathy and expresses remorse and expresses desire to change.

I want to circle back to what you said before about what I think is a beautiful answer. And I hope that you're hearing this as you're listening. When you said my answer is going to change, because in therapy, I've often seen the betrayed ask the question to try to catch the betrayer in a lie. And then if the betrayer says something, they're like, well, last time you said it was this reason, and now you're saying is this, when the reality is yes, and it's all of it. It's all of it. And as you understand yourself more, as you know yourself more, And as you think more about it, navel gaze, you can come up with more than just one answer because it's never one.

It's never one. Yeah.

And I like the fact that you can just go ahead and tell your partner that in the beginning, just tell them, look, my answer is going to change because it's not just one reason. It's not that I'm being not truthful. I'm, I'm trying to answer you as truthfully as I can in the moment. And those are, those are the answers. Yeah.

Well, yeah, you're hoping that as they go through the process of navel gazing, their defense mechanisms fall away, and they're more able to see themselves clearly, without putting up their guard. And it's tough, because the hope is that the betrayed, the wounded, also is curious in a kind of a psychoanalytical way, like, what the heck happened? You know, what, what led you down this path? And, but they first have to be validated, and they first have to get over their pain. And And, you know, especially if there's kids involved, you know, the reality is there's going to be a connection either way, long time. And so they have to figure out how to have some sort of like of each other.

Yeah.

And so what is forgiveness? I mean, is, you know, it's never going to be 100%. You're going to always have a little doubt. And that can be healthy in terms of keeping people on their toes and doing the work to keep their relationship energized, etc. I love Eve Ensler, who, you know, wrote The Vagina Monologues. Oh yeah, her quote, her quote is, forgiveness is letting go. Oh gosh, what is it? Forgiveness is letting— is giving up all hope of a better past.

Oh, I love that.

Giving up all hope of a better past. Isn't that great? I mean, it's just—

you're right. Yes, that's beautiful. It's not Saying something's okay, it's not. Yeah, I love that. I love that.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's really, um, gonna take a lot of courage and humility and desire for growth on both parties' sides, you know, to get to some level of forgiveness. And again, that's not a state, a set point. It's going to fluctuate.

Yes.

Regardless.

It's a process. Forgiveness is a continual process that we come back to. So you said something, and it triggers a question that I knew I wanted to ask anyway, is you said there will always be a little doubt. And so 2 questions: can people really change? If she cheated on her husband, can she really— can he really trust that she will never do it again? Can she really trust herself that she can not do it again? And then also, can a relationship that's been broken to that extent really get to a place of trust?

Well, that's the hope. And

that's not asking easy questions here.

No, no, that's fine. That's good. It's, it's tough. It is tough to say, because again, that seed of doubt is always going to be there because you, we all want to protect our Pain. We're like, what? He didn't come— she didn't come home on time, or she didn't return my phone call. Oh, and your brain's gonna immediately go to the trauma from the past. Sadly, we remember the trauma from the past.

Mm-hmm.

And so for you both to learn how to say it out loud, wow, today when you didn't return my phone call right away, I immediately went to what you did 2 years ago. And just, just say, oh, wow, I'm so sorry, I get it. And so that's the goal, is to continually allow that conversation to continue and not just keep silent about those thoughts that come up. But again, that's— that takes some skill and takes some courage on your part.

It takes a lot of courage. But I love that you said that. A friend of mine was just— she said to me that one of the things she notices in my podcast is that I'm always talking about being specific and really speaking the thing, right. And it comes down to that same thing, both of you being willing to speak Talk about that elephant in the room. If you feel it, speak it. And if, if it's not taboo in your relationship to talk about the affair, if it's not taboo in your relationship to talk about the triggers, then you're going to at least be able to, if there's a seed of doubt, have it assuaged by something that your partner can say to you, as opposed to it growing and festering.

Yeah, because, you know, even if a client— if couples haven't had the trauma of an affair, they still need to learn how to deal with resentments that build up over time. Absolutely. They still need to learn how to check in with each other and say, how are we doing as a couple? And have that conversation that's deeper than, hi, how are you? What was your day like? You know, and that's not something we do daily. And it sometimes needs some coaching and handholding to get through it. But to circle back to your original question, can people change? Yes, people can change. it has to be work. It has to be intentional. It has to be, you know, specified. What is it that needs to be changed? You know, because— and some people don't want to. I mean, again, we still have this statistic stuck with 50% of marriages fail.

Right.

That's not really budged any. Some of the other statistics, I'm like, I don't know. They say that 25% of men and 15% of women cheat. And if you add online relationships, that adds 20% more. I don't know how many— I don't know, I think it's a little higher. But who knows? You

know, I suspect that it's higher, but it's not something that we're sharing. No, we don't.

So you don't go into a room and go, raise your hand if you've had an affair, you know, they're not going to do that. So, and that's the sad part of this. And another reason why I wrote the book, you know, it's great if they come to see you or me or other therapists, but a lot of people don't.

They suffer in silence.

They suffer in silence. And so the hope is when they pick up a book like this, it's kind of a self-help journaling kind of thing to really help them, them work through some stuff. Because right now we know there's a bad shortage of therapists and mental health issue, uh, assistance out there. Um, so we want to make sure that people, uh, find ways to, to do the navel-gazing, to do the repair work that's necessary for their Relationship?

Well, I love the questions that you asked. One of them, which I thought was really important, is do you want to be forgiven? Mm-hmm. Because I think someone can really sit and go, let me think about that.

You do want them to think about it.

Yeah, let me think about that. Because, you know, affairs don't happen in a vacuum. And there are reasons in a marriage, whether, you know, it's more on one side or more on another, you know, it's a dynamic that gets created. And sometimes, You know, there's a message that you're sending to your partner through the affair. There could be a lot of anger that's really festering in a relationship that could make you go, oh, okay, maybe I really need to look at this. Yeah,

yeah. I was talking to some other therapists, and one person shared her opinion, which was thought-provoking. I'm curious to see what you think. Do you think that most affairs come out of a damaged relationship? The primary relationship is damaged?

Um, I would say not— no, I wouldn't say necessarily, not from my experience.

I agree. Sometimes there's this weird spontaneity, like, you meet someone and, and you think you won't get caught, and therefore you step over the line.

But I do think there are issues within a person who has an affair that they need to address. But I wouldn't say that most affairs necessarily come out of a damaged relationship, which might be really hard I think that sometimes is the hardest thing because the betrayed wants to know, what did I do wrong? What's wrong with me?

Yes, right.

What, like, what was wrong? And sometimes the betrayer is like, nothing, nothing was wrong with our marriage. It's me. And that's true. And that's hard. It's sometimes it's harder to hear because the betrayed wants to know, I can do something to fix it. Or I could have done something to fix it. I want to know that. Because otherwise, there's a sense of loss of control.

Right.

And we always want to control things, especially when things get scary and dangerous. And when there's nothing that you can personally do to control, it's a very scary place to be.

Very scary. Very scary. Yeah. And that is part of our humility is that we don't have control a lot. And we have to let go of that and just again, live in the moment, find the courage to be authentic and say out loud what we're thinking and feeling. and hope that, that the person we're with is willing to be there too, so that we can connect at a more intimate level. You know, that's the other part of my book, I talk about the brain and sex. And, you know, there really is some scientific data, you know, it's like an addiction, right? It's a high. Sex is fun. It's supposed to be fun, right?

Right.

But it can also be addictive, and it can be consuming, and it can be altering in terms of your desires for other activities. And yet, I don't want to give that as an excuse for staying in an affair. But you have to acknowledge that that's part of it.

It's a reality.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And so you have to, you know, really get that there's a moral compass within each of us. And so to examine your own moral compass, you know, do you think that it's okay to cheat if no one knows? Do you think monogamy is not ever really gonna— that's not a thing that can actually happen? You know, to really ask those kinds of moral questions, what's the sense of right and wrong? How do you know? How do you forgive those things? You know, which is interesting. And I'm sure you've heard Esther Perel. She's an excellent sex therapist, psychotherapist, has a lot of podcasts out there and TED Talks. Yeah. And she talks about, you know, we, we have this, uh, diverse need for security and consistency in relationships. We're also looking for the thrill and the high and the fun.

Yeah.

And we're looking to the one person to meet all those needs. And that's tough depending what stage of life you're in. For the women that's listening to your podcast, you know, to acknowledge, especially when your babies are young, you know, your home, your ego as a woman gets damaged a little bit. We love our kids, and we don't want to give that up. But it's really hard to feel sexy and interesting and, and intimate. You're just trying to get enough sleep, right? And

right, figure

out if you can fit a shower in today, you know. And so it's, it's, I find a lot more of the cheating happens that often at that phase of life too, you know, because People at that point are also consumed with their careers and trying to get sucked into all that. So it'll be interesting to see with COVID and different work situations, you know, that people aren't going to offices as much, you know, if it'll affect cheating at all. I don't know.

How cheating will change. So I did want to talk a little bit about the difference between men and women and cheating and what you've noticed in your practice.

I can't— well, everyone's looking for intimacy. Everyone's looking for ego boosts. Everyone's looking for fun, you know, both, both genders. I think the power of the physical sex stereotypically for men is higher. For women, they are looking for emotional intimacy more. And so that would be the bigger difference that came— comes in my mind. But I really can't Say honestly, I've had a lot smaller percentage of women cheaters than I have had men come to my office. My guess is when it's the woman, they aren't coming to therapy that much. I don't know. Is that your experience? Or—

Yes. So my experience is that I have had more men who have cheated than women. What I tend to see, and I think it's corroborated in research as well, is that the relationships are more damaged when women cheat than men. Men will, like you said, tend to cheat for more physical reasons. Women tend to cheat because they're lacking something in the marriage. Um, and I also noticed that when women cheat, the marriage tends to end more often than when men cheat, which is probably why they're also not coming into our office. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. Because the marriage is just over. What I'm wondering though, is how does it look in that dynamic? Like, how is a betrayer as a woman? Different in the way she needs to approach her husband versus maybe a man and the way that he needs to approach his husband, if there is any difference?

In terms of repairing the relationship?

Yeah, intensive repair. And in terms of repairing, in terms of responding to those questions, do men have a different type of need when they're asking the whys and when they're wanting to know versus women?

I think you alluded to it before, Dr. Zoe, in terms of saying that You know, we really want details because we're reflecting on, could I have done something differently?

Right?

There's some flaw within me. So that's the hard part of how to reassure your significant other that they didn't necessarily— or maybe they did. But you know, here's some issues. But, but I think I really don't have any clear

It's pretty universal.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For me, it seems to be my experience working with couples.

Yeah.

Um, I think it's interesting though, when you work with women individually, I think that's something we don't ask as therapists is, have you betrayed trust in a relationship?

Hmm, I always ask it.

Oh, good girl. All right.

Yeah, I think maybe people don't. It just depends on what's on their radar. But I do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm sure it reveals a lot about some of their past choices and part of, you know, their regret and guilt and shame or whatever. So it's really great that you do that. It's a good reminder for therapists to not— to put it on our radar, right? That this is a universal issue. And that it shouldn't be assumed that only men cheat, because obviously, that's not true.

It's not true. It's not true. Yeah. And I ask it of both, always individually. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's important.

Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, as therapists, we don't necessarily want to be in their lives forever. We want them to learn skills. We want them to learn how to repair and, and we want them to learn how to continue to have these conversations. How are we doing? What was it like for you when we hit Valentine's Day again this year? You know, that was a big trigger for me and whatever it is, you know, just the courage to bring it up. Um, you know, like TV and, you know, every time you pick up a People magazine or whatever, there's everywhere.

Yes.

Yeah. You're like, oh, another person. And you're, you're so— it's like watching a train wreck. You want to read it all and you're curious. And then, but it's painful because it brings up your own memories.

It is definitely a trigger. So one of the big things I'm taking away is you should be bringing it up. You should be putting it right back there in your relationship so that it's something that you guys can talk about openly.

Yes, yes.

Well, thank you for writing this book. I'm excited to finish it and to refer it. Um, you can get it on Amazon, I assume?

Of course, everything's on Amazon, right?

All the places. How can, um, people get a hold of you?

Uh, my website is, uh, drdebmillar.com. D-R-D-E-B-M-I-L-L-A-R.com.

Yeah, wonderful.

So there's a book link there, and I do some Therapy on, you know, I'm semi-retired. So I do see clients virtually, etc. But yeah.

So can you give one last piece of advice for a woman who has betrayed her husband?

I, my piece of advice is she needs to find the courage to examine her choice to have an affair.

So

Yeah. That there's— there could have been, there probably is some positive things that they liked about themselves in this affair. And they need to honor those things and figure out how to maybe take that into new other relationships or the primary relationship. But they've learned something about themselves in the affair, and they need to figure out how to understand that. So have the courage to look at it.

I love that. Thank you so much, Dr. Debra, for coming on the show. Um, I hope that everyone gets this book if you've been touched by it in some way. If you know someone who's been touched by it in some way, this is a fantastic book, not just for the betrayed but the betrayer.

Yes, thank you. Thank you. I enjoyed the time with you. Thank you so much.