Releasing Miss Independent

This is not a podcast about being broken, although you may have been. This is a podcast about strength for women who find themselves in difficult relationships, including that sometimes difficult one with yourself. We'll look at your relationship through a lens of psychology, faith, and a little dash of my own kind of feminism. We're not fixing them. We're fixing you. And that changes everything. Welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. Save yourself, heal your relationships. Listen in. Hey there, I'm your host, Dr. Zoe. I'm so glad you're here today. Today's conversation is with Tamika McTeer. She is the host of the podcast Ageless Conversations. She's a certified marriage facilitator, a transformational speaker, and a life coach. Tamika and I have a really great conversation about getting rid of Miss Independent. And I'm guessing I'm talking to a couple of Miss Independents out there, myself included. So sometimes we have to put those in check. But before we get started, I will share my win and my fail for the week. My fail is I messed up Zelling someone and it's, you know, 'cause I'm moving fast and she texted me the Zelle info. I thought that was her Venmo info and I thought I'll just Zelle her 'cause she said I could Zelle or Venmo her. And I Zelled her based on her number. I sent a large sum of money to the wrong place. And of course I tried to call my bank and fix it, but it actually went to an account, which is an account that I don't know, she doesn't have access to. I don't know, I messed up. I Zelled the wrong place and now I'm like in Zelle purgatory. So I don't know how I'm gonna get the money back. And so my lesson is pay attention. If I had just Zelled the correct email, I wouldn't be in the pickle that I am now. And that's how technology that's supposed to be super convenient and easy just becomes a hassle when you don't pay attention. But my win, guys, I am so excited about this. I am closing down my brick-and-mortar office, and I'm excited, but I'm also sad. It's been my home away from home for me and for my girls even, because my girls come and hang out at my office with me mostly on Wednesdays. Oh, that's so fun. But most of my clients, 99% of them now, are virtual. I do most of my sessions via Zoom. I have clients all over the world, even with my coaching, and I am not in need of a brick-and-mortar office anymore. And so I'm letting it go. I'm moving out April 30th, or the last day of April, and it's a new season for me. So I'm excited, but I'm a little— it's a little bittersweet. But, but, but I am building a she shed, really my office, in my backyard. They came a week or two ago and they built it on site. And I got my electricity in yesterday. My insulation and drywall is coming in today. I'm going to make it into a beautiful sanctuary where I will do my writing and I will do my interviews and I will do my sessions. So I'll have my space. It will be my quiet space away from the house. I'll have a quick commute across the backyard. So it's a win. It's a win. And it's a closing of a season. And I'm looking forward to it. And I'm also looking forward to sharing this episode of the podcast with you with Tamika McTeer, releasing Miss Independent. Listen in. Tamika, welcome to this podcast. I am so grateful that you are here today after 3 tries of getting you on the show, all my fault. So I'm so glad that you are here today.

Dr. Zoe, thank you so much for extending an invitation for me to be a guest here on your podcast. I'm excited to have this conversation with you and your audience today.

Thank you. So today we are going to be talking about releasing Miss Independent, or maybe Mrs. Independent, in a relationship. Uh, but before we get started, can you please share your win and your fail with my audience?

Of course. So what I'm gonna say my win for this week is— my big win is going to be I have a new book that's coming out, and so orders were submitted for that. So I'm really excited about that. That took place on yesterday. So that's what I'm gonna say.

Congratulations!

Thank you so much. So that's my big win. And then what I'm gonna say my fail is, um, that kind of ties into another win, is my consistency has been there this week as it relates to working out and showing up in that way, how I want to honor my body and, you know, my tempo. But I still need to up my water game, so I'm gonna say that's a fail for me.

That water game, it will get you every time. You can do great one day and the next day you realize, wait, the whole day's gone by. I haven't had any.

And then you get that little reminder that comes to you by way of a headache and it's like, why do I have a headache? Oh, I might be a little dehydrated.

Yes. Yes. We carry these things around with us all the time and even still. Yes. Well, thank you for sharing that, but you can't just tell me, oh, I have a book coming out and we don't have a title. Come on.

Okay.

Come on.

Let me go ahead and give you guys the title. So I'm wanting to be co-authors in the new book that's coming to be released, The Image in the Mirror: A Dream Deferred. And so my chapter is titled Ageless Conversations. And in my chapter, and throughout the book, there's so many stories that are shared by different women from all different backgrounds. But my story in particular, it starts my journey off, and I would say just becoming, and Tamika having that ageless conversation with herself. And that began with her finding out that she was pregnant at the age of the tender age of 18 and becoming a mom at 19. Mm-hmm. And how she knew, um, that that experience didn't have to, um, change the woman she wanted to be. Like, she was the narrator of her story, and so she could control the narrative around, um, things that happened in her life, regardless of what society would say a teen mom would experience or would be. She took full control with a shift in her mindset, and it's guided her to be the person she is

Wow. I love that. Congratulations.

Thank you.

I can't help but notice that as you describe your chapter, you talk about yourself in the third person. Can you tell me about that?

Um, 'cause I talk about her in the third person because obviously when you enter something new and motherhood obviously is new, especially when you experience it for the first time, Um, you know, there's a lot of newness that comes along with it, and there's a lot of experiences that you have. So I talk about her in third person because in marriage I needed to release her.

Okay.

She was so stuck in her independence, um, because she thrived in that space and she achieved a lot of successes professionally, um, and personally without the help of a man, that some of that mindset that she brought into her marriage, she definitely needed to release.

I wondered if that was why, if it was because she is not you anymore, right?

Yeah.

I love that. Thank you for sharing that. So you have kind of segued us into the topic of the conversation, which is about independence. So I guess I'm just gonna ask the first question, or the first question that comes to my mind right now is, do you think then that women can be too independent?

Um, I definitely think that women could be too independent, and I think a lot of that, um, comes from not something that we intentionally want to do, but when we have our own personal goals, I think it shows up in that way. Yeah. I believe a lot of it shows up in the way, um, when we take things back to our childhood. I know for me, that's where a lot of mine came from. Whether you're told it or whether your life experiences shows it to you, a lot of what women see in their households growing up, or at least in my era, were strong independent women. And so you take on that mindset, um, like, I, I have to be strong, I want to do this. And so, um, not to say that it's a bad thing, but when you get so used to being in that independent space, sometimes it could be difficult to make that transition to invite somebody else in and accept their support, because there's many fears and things like that associated with Um, if I give up too much of myself, if I show too much vulnerability, if I communicate my true thoughts and feelings around this situation or whatever it is I'm thinking, um, a person might do X, Y, and Z. Mm-hmm. And that could be from a past relationship. Again, that can be, um, from something that you've seen take place between your parents. It could be even something that you experience in a friendship, you know, with another female or something like that, because you may have given up a certain area of your life or you saw someone else In your mind, give up a piece of their life and then see somebody take advantage of them, you almost take on this, this, this mindset or this attitude of protection. Whatever it is I need to do necessary to cover myself and not fully give.

You know, so I'm thinking then, and, and I'm so glad we're having this conversation because I talk a lot about strength in women, right? I talk about our— the necessity of us having, you know, interdependence when it comes to relationships. but really having a sense of our own independence. And there are some wonderful, beautiful gifts in that, I think, for us as women when we are able to feel that strength that I believe is God-given. Yeah. But independence can be a term almost for something that maybe has a foundation of fear.

Yeah.

And that's a very different thing than having a sense of independence Uh, based on a sense of confidence and the knowledge and wisdom.

Most definitely. I'm nodding my head, um, as you're saying that because that's exactly how I look at it. And that's, that's truly the difference between the two— operating from a place of fear and operating from a place of confidence.

And operating from a place of fear makes you feel like, I have to protect myself, I can't need anyone because I might be hurt, right? Okay, okay. So I do see this. I've seen that in myself. Yeah. For sure, aspects of that. I think we all, you know, have aspects of fear or feelings of fear when it comes to engaging in relationship with people we care about or even just people we fear could take advantage of us.

Yeah.

And so for women listening out there, I think Tamika just said something so very important is that you need to be able to look at your sense of strength, your sense of independence as a woman, and understand what aspects of that are fear-based and what aspect is healthy, right? It's confidence and wisdom-based. Thank you for that. I think that's a really wonderful distinction. And so now I want to talk about how that plays out in relationships, because whether you're a single woman— and the reality is, if you're a single woman, then you do have to be independent. You've got to do it all and take care of it all.

That's right.

Or you're a married woman and you have to learn how to be interdependent with your spouse. How does— how have you seen in your work, how have you seen it show up, this sense of maybe— we'll call her Miss Independent, right, which is really talking about the negative aspects of independence. How do you see that showing up in relationships?

Um, I'll use my own story and myself, um, as an example. And so for me, how I saw that showing up as I wish I could tell you I just prayed and things changed, but Dr. Zoe, that's far from my reality. I was notorious for playing the silent treatment game, and I'm sure you're probably familiar with that.

Yes.

You know what I'm saying? And while that's not my proudest moment to share, back then, early on, I was good for playing the silent treatment game.

We call that stonewalling. Yeah.

Oh, I was, I was good, notorious for playing that game when things didn't go my way. It's like I would be silent. And so I remember, um, I can't even remember the disagreement, but I will always remember how I felt. I was good for going silent from 24 to 72 hours.

Just what did that do to you when you were stonewalling? I know we do it. We saying, you know, women, we, we do have a reputation for that. And I've certainly had my days of behaving in that way. And I know that it's a sense of, well, protection, of course, is the, is one of the foundational reasons, but it's also a way of punishing someone, right? We can punish them with our words. And we can punish somebody by removing ourselves from them.

Yep. And that's literally what I was doing. I considered myself to be, oh, I'm gonna punish him. I'm just not gonna talk to him. I'm gonna walk past him and not even make eye contact, act, act as if he's not even there, invisible, like, wow, you don't even exist. But internally, I was hurt. I was sad. Um, I wanted to talk to my husband, but I didn't know what to say. I oftentimes felt, was I supposed to apologize or was I going to wait on him to apologize? You know, I felt trapped. Like, what do I do? Like, what are the next steps? And for me, just soaking in that and continually operating in that space, I knew that it wasn't healthy, it wasn't productive, and that's not what I personally had envisioned for my marriage. And so it literally took for me, um, having a closet moment. And I don't know if you've ever had a closet moment. Oh yeah. You know, being balled up, you know, in the closet, snotting, ugly crying, wondering why me? How did I get here? Like, why am I having so much time struggling and being vulnerable with my husband?

And what did those closet moments give you?

Again, loneliness, sadness. Like, why am I here?

But did you develop clarity? Did you come to a place of understanding what was going on?

I definitely developed clarity and came to a place when I felt like it was enough because I found myself saying like, you know, games, when we play them, they're fun. They produce laughter, right? The silent treatment game didn't give me any of those feels. Right. And so I remember calling out to God in that, in that very moment saying, God, like, I need your help. I no longer want to lean on my own understanding. I'm ready to do the work to find out why I'm struggling so much to communicate and be vulnerable with my husband. And I immediately Dr. Zoe heard the Holy Spirit say, Tamika, you need to do the one thing you haven't been doing. It is time to talk.

Wow. It's time to talk.

Come up out of the silence. The game, who is it for? Why do you continue to play it? So it took me on a journey and a path where I really had to get deep and intimate with myself. And during that time of the person— of my personal development journey, And just really sourcing God and really wanting to get clear and being committed, saying, Tamika, you can do this work, you can do this work. It was a talk method that was downloaded to me, and through that method, it taught me how to T, transform my mind. Mm-hmm. What is it that you're thinking? Why are you always so consumed with the negative instead of trying to shift things into a positive? It sets the foundation. Um, what was this marriage truly built on? And get back to that. Learn new techniques. Clearly what's working for you— well, clearly what you're doing is not working for you,

right?

So do something different. And then kickstart those conversations that you're afraid to have with confidence. And that's literally what I did. Just a process of, um, I would describe a process of dying to self daily. No, I'm not saying um, allow somebody to be a doormat for you. No, that's not what I'm saying when I'm saying dying to self. But I'm saying get rid of the negative, the stinking thinking about ways, and don't approach every conversation as an attack or some way that somebody is trying to get up on you. But really, um, look at, look at your experience as a way to advance. For me, I will tell you that I grew up in a household where my parents were together for a very long time, um, but they were never married. What I saw my mom experience was abuse at the hands of my father. I saw women around me, um, family and not, that I felt like they were giving their all to men, but they were being treated like trash. And so as my protection, because of the experiences and things that I saw in my childhood, Why would I want to open up and be vulnerable about my fears?

You learned.

I learned.

Well, yeah, you learned not to trust. And so I, I'm so glad you shared that because I want to talk a little bit about trust. Because part of being independent as a woman, um, and part of being maybe what we can call toxically independent, is that we're not trusting Sometimes ourselves, sometimes I've had clients who tell me, I don't trust that I can even pick somebody who's healthy for me, right? So I can't even trust myself to pick somebody good and then when I find somebody, I can't even trust them.

Yeah.

And so how do we deal with the trust issue? Because when you can't trust somebody, then it's really hard to be vulnerable. It's really hard to talk and say those things when you fear that you are going to be hurt.

Yeah, the thing is, fortunate enough for me, um, my husband is somebody that I can— that I truly feel like I can trust with my everything. And I've always— well, I shouldn't say I always felt like that, because if I've always felt like that, then I wouldn't have acted that way. But let me say it like this, he's always been somebody to trust,

right?

Right. Again, I didn't trust myself because of the past experiences. And me getting to a place where I could, one, trust myself— you talk a lot about it, about, um, sometimes we're in that difficult relationship with ourselves.

Mm-hmm.

And the need— and the need to want to be right and perfect. Um, a lot of that and trust may have come from me just starting out as a teen mom. It's really getting clear and accepting your reality. Own your story. Own the parts of your life that don't feel comfortable for you, but they are a part of your reality, and they are a part of what's helping you build and become the person that you are today. Everything that's happened to us is a part of our story. And in a part of our owning that and becoming vulnerable with ourselves, I think that's when the scales begin to fall off our eyes. The more we come to accept— as a person of faith, I truly understand the plans that God has for my life. Mm-hmm. And I know that he knows everything that I'm experiencing. And so if I'm saying that I'm his daughter and I'm a child of God, then why am I not sourcing the source and then reapplying that no matter how many times it takes? Be committed to do the work. Don't give up and don't say it didn't work this time. Commit and recommit and recommit as many times as you want to. You might have learned 5 of the 100 things that you need to learn. Don't stop. Keep going. You owe it to yourself to become the best version of you. And the best version of you then spills over into every area of your life.

You just said so many beautiful things. And I actually think that the very first thing that you said was that you've always been able to trust your husband was probably more true than you realize. Because what happens, I think— I know is that There's a part of us deep down that can— that knows if someone's trustworthy.

Yeah.

But all of our learning, all of our— like all of our issues, right? All of the things that we carry keep us from being able to trust people that even on a level we know we can trust. It's— and that goes back to our relationship with ourselves, right?

Yeah.

It's us that's keeping us from being able to trust somebody, not that they're necessarily not trustworthy. And we have to look at that and we have to work and walk through that journey like you said. And then the other thing that I like to talk to women about, and you might have heard me say this before, is when it comes to trust, sometimes that fear is so big and we feel like we can't trust that other person and it's not safe. And that's when I remind you, but you don't have to trust them. Right.

You've

got to work on trusting you. And like you said, trusting God and a bigger purpose, but trusting that you can take care of yourself. And that goes back to healthy independence versus Toxic independence, knowing that what happens, you'll still be okay. Whatever happens, you'll still be okay. And so we don't have to put all of our trust into another human being to hold and carry our emotions and our pain and our fears and our safety and everything. We can trust ourselves knowing that we'll be okay, but also knowing that we have to be vulnerable.

Yes.

To be healthy in relationships.

Yes. I always say grow personally, thrive relationally.

Right.

You know, people often think about relationships, um, only in the sense of romantic relationships. And yeah, in the spirit of this conversation, we might be talking about marriage and things like that and how, um, certain characteristics show up in that way. But my God, who you are and the relationships that you hold show up in so many other areas as well, like in your parenting,

right?

As a coworker, as a friend. Mm-hmm. It goes in so many different areas. And I tell you, if you are not whole, it's probably one or all of those areas that's lacking. It's probably showing up in your fitness, and not just in body movement, but mindset as well. Your money is probably impacted in a way that you never imagined,

right?

Your family is likely unbalanced Because as the woman of the household, you, you often control the temperature whether you realize it or

not. Yes, we do. Yes.

You know, so it has a bigger impact than just in a romantic sense.

I am so glad you said that because it is true. It seeps out into all of our relationships. And what you're talking about a little bit is almost social intelligence as well, right? If we can't have a healthy relationship with ourselves, if we aren't aware of who we are and all of our motivations, if we aren't able to look at ourselves and see that toxic independence versus healthy independence, we are not going to be able to have good relationships with other people. We will find that friendships are very difficult. We'll find that, you know, there's contention and things fall off. And same thing, like you said, with all the other relationships. So yes, it definitely permeates everywhere.

Yeah, it's like the more and more that you become vulnerable with yourself and open up to yourself, like the overflow. So, you know, we like to say, um, you can't give from an empty cup,

right?

And so I always like to say, my gosh, how, how much better would things be if our cups could stay full and we are giving from our saucer, the overflow?

Hmm. How do we— how do you imagine we keep our cups full?

I imagine that we keep our cups full in that way is checking in with self daily.

Mm-hmm.

And, and really doing that work to find out what fulfills us without anybody else doing it. Like, what is it that we need to stay on this high every day? So is that, you know, citing affirmations to yourself every day? Is that, you know, doing some self-care? Is that telling yourself maybe you love— I love you? Is that getting dressed and putting on your favorite outfit? Is that diving into the word for 20 minutes or saying a particular prayer every day? Whatever it is, it's going to look different for everybody else, for everybody. But make sure that you are in tune with your needs and that you are very clear on your boundaries and not allowing everything and everybody to come in and overstep that. Like getting crystal clear on what your capacity is.

Ooh, that's a great word.

And, and not operating from a place, um, where you're truly just burned out. Like your, your fire has burned so low, you have nothing else to give. But because you have allowed yourself to get in this place of people pleasing, you continually chase the need to be validated by somebody else. Instead of validating self first.

Beautiful. So I want to talk real quickly to a woman who might be listening to this and thinking, okay, so I can see myself in this. I know that I am maybe a control freak. I know that I struggle with being able to give, um, in, in relationship, meaning like give any of my control. And I notice that I'm super independent and I can see that maybe it's affecting my relationship, but I don't know what to do about. I don't know what a first step would be to start to shift that. What would you suggest to her?

I'm always going to say the first shift is mindset, mindset, mindset. And ask yourself a few questions around like, why is it that I'm thinking this way? Hmm. Is there any truth about what it is that I'm actually believing? What's one thing I can do to change the narrative Or the story that I've been telling myself? And then just, just take the next best step.

I think that's beautiful. I would also just add, and how is it serving you? Because we forget that all of our behaviors, and especially negative patterns that we get into, they serve us. They are giving us something or we wouldn't do it. They're also hurting us, but we are getting something from it. And so we need to understand what it is. How is your Ultra independence serving you,

yeah,

and then figure out how to honor that need and get it in a different way because as much as it's serving you, it's hurting you more.

Yeah, like reevaluate it and ask yourself what it why am I so high off the self sabotaging because essentially that's what it is. That is what it is. So why am I so high off this? Why do I get so excited to stay in this place instead of going and allow myself to go to a Mm-hmm.

And I know sometimes there can just be a sense of pride, right? A sense of pride in, I can do this. As Elaine Fluker in her book, Get Over I Got It Syndrome. Yes, I did. A chapter of that book was about that, the superwoman that I talked about, but that there's some pride there. And okay, I can do this. I don't need anybody else. I can do this all on my own. And although I think there should be pride in our ability to take care of ourselves. Once again, pride can go too far.

Yeah.

It can go too far because we have to understand that we need people in our lives. And whether we're talking about needing a spouse, or whether it's just the reality that humans are pack animals, and we were made to be in relationship with not to be Mr. or Mrs. Solo.

Yeah. And so that's one of the things I always like to talk about too. Like, there's so much power in being in community with others. And so if you're starting out on a new journey, or even if you're seasoned in the journey, why do it alone, right? Why not— why not open yourself up and allow yourself to be in community with other like-hearted, like-minded women that know what it is that you're going through and can share their experiences with you? testimonies of how they've overcome instead of trying to figure out things on your own, we're going to go faster,

right?

And further.

Yes.

When, when we don't try to do things alone.

And you know what I realized many years ago? I finally understood a concept that I'm sure lots of people have been saying, is that when I try to do it all on my own And I don't accept help and I'm doing all of it, I'm sending very clear messages to the people in my life that I don't need you and you're not capable. And especially my children.

Yeah.

The last thing I want to send a message to send to my children is you're not capable, only I am. And to my husband. And so when I finally understood that that was a message I was sending to the people in my life, that I don't need you and you're not capable, then I was able to understand, okay, this is the negative effect that my independence, my controlling, right, behavior has. And then I had the motivation to change it because I certainly didn't want to send those messages to the people I love.

Yeah, yeah, I love that.

Wonderful. Well, thank you for being so vulnerable, sharing a bit of your story. And, and for really— I, I think you've given some wonderful insight and tips to women who, and men who may be listening to this show and recognize they're having, uh, this is playing out in their life. Is there one last thing you'd like to say to a woman who might find herself in the situation of being a little too independent?

Uh, one last thing I probably would like to say to that particular woman is Um, and I said it earlier in the conversation, and so just get this in your head. Like, um, what is it that you're afraid of losing? Ask yourself, why are you giving her so much power? And how can you move on, um, from her? Like, don't be afraid. As babies, we have to crawl before we can walk. Allow yourself that transition to do just that.

I love that. And maybe take a little page out of Tamika's book and refer to yourself in the third person when you are recognizing that you're moving beyond whatever it is that you're going through right now. I love that. Thank you, Tamika. And tell us the name of your book again.

Of course. Thank you so much, Dr. Zoe. So the name of the book is called The Image in the Mirror. That's That's, you know, that's where we always need to start it. Michael Jackson said it, but that's— I'm starting with the man in the mirror,

right? Okay, well, I will put a link to that in the show notes. And thank you so much for coming on today.

Thank you for having me. I guess I enjoyed this conversation.

Thank you for listening to Stronger in the Difficult Places podcast. I hope that this episode was helpful in you releasing some of your independence, just the parts that aren't Keep all the rest of it. New episodes go out on Tuesdays. Follow the podcast so you don't miss an episode and hop on my email list so you can get some of my encouragement. Have a strong week.