Staying Together for the Kids: Should you? Shouldn’t you? And How to do it well.

This is not a podcast about being broken, although you may have been. This is a podcast about strength for women who find themselves in difficult relationships, including that sometimes difficult one with yourself. We'll look at your relationship through a lens of psychology, faith, and a little dash of my own kind of feminism. We're not fixing them. We're fixing you. And that changes everything. Welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. Save yourself, heal your relationships. Listen in. Hey there, welcome. I'm your host, Dr. Zoe, and I'm so glad you're here. Today's topic is all about staying for the kids. Should you do it? When should you do it? When should you not do it? And if you're gonna do it, what should it look like? But I'm not here by myself today. I have a wonderful guest. Her name is Melissa Dumas. She is a friend. A professional acquaintance, and I brought her on because she knows her stuff. She knows relationships. So let me give you a quick bio. Melissa Dumas is a licensed marriage and family therapist with over 15 years experience. She specializes in guiding busy adults and couples through the complexities of overcoming emotional and physical trauma. In 2010, Melissa opened her practice, You Help You, located in Beverly Hills. She's the author of the book, The Love Challenge: 30 Days, 30 Ways to Increase the Love in Your Relationship. And she's also co-host of the HATS podcast, which I've been honored to be a guest on. Melissa's lovely. She knows so much, and I'm so excited to have this conversation. I have to give a little bit of a disclaimer. Our audio was not that great. I'm not sure what happened, but I didn't want to trash this episode because I think the nuggets are really, really good. So yeah. So if you're in a space of you've got kids, you got a husband, you don't know if you want to stay in this marriage or not, and it's a really difficult, painful place to be. I'm just— we're talking today about all the things. I'm not a huge proponent of divorce, but I am also not someone that wants to help you avoid it at all costs. I think sometimes a marriage can become an idol, and I don't believe that that Is the best for us or God's plan for us. But I'm also not about throwing marriages away because I also know that the best plan is for us to be able to stay in healthy, intact families, but not at all costs, not at the cost of our, our family and our kids' health and our health. So if you're in this space or you have a friend that's in this space, listen in, share the episode, and you got this. Oh, one more thing. I completely forgot to ask Melissa her win and her fail. I prepped her and forgot to do it. So I'm just gonna share my own. Update about my fail from last week, which was all about failing to give attendance for my daughter in homeschooling. I realized I throw out these fails and then I forget to update you guys on them. So the update is we did not get kicked out of school. That's my win. I'm still— she's still enrolled. We're doing fine. In fact, getting ready to report my win and fail today helped me to remember to log attendance. So it's all good. I've had conversations with my ES. My daughter is not going to be kicked out of the school. So that is a win. My fail, and I'm just gonna be transparent with you guys, my fail is that I am letting this whole query process, you guys who know me know I've been writing a memoir for years, and I'm finally at the point of querying agents. And this whole process, I'm letting it get to me. I've been sending out queries, I've had one interview with an agent, and my self-talk is in the trash. So I am on it because I know how very important self-talk is. I understand how it influences me in all aspects, how it influences you in all aspects and facets of your life. And so, you know, despite the fact that I'm, you know, the self-talk queen, sometimes my self-talk spirals down. And so my fail is that I have let it get the best of me. Uh, over this past day or two, it has distracted me and I realize it. And maybe because I'm so on top of it, I realized the shifts, you know, that happen when my self-talk is not positive. And so I see it, I don't like it. And I've been on top of my affirmations. I've been on top of thought stopping, all the skills that I teach in my self-talk course. But yeah, my fail is that I haven't been so good at it. I don't have an A+ this week and that's okay. 'Cause that's life, but I'm working on it. So up next, Melissa Dumas with Staying for the Kids. Melissa, I am so thrilled to have you on my podcast today. It's funny because I was thinking how many— I haven't had a lot of actual therapists on my podcast, so I'm excited to have you on today.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. I want to call you Dr. Zoe because it's so official, Dr. Shaw because it's so official, but I also want to call you Zoe because I know you personally. So I'm going to, I'm going to go between all of them because you are all of them.

Whatever works. It all works with me. So I wanted to do this podcast today, um, because I know you work with couples and I want to have a conversation about that woman who is struggling to try to figure out, should I stay in my marriage just for the kids? Or maybe she's already decided she's going to do that. And how can I do that? And one of the reasons why now is because this— we are in September and August, September is one of the biggest months for divorce filings. And January is the biggest. And we know that's because, you know, everybody wants to get through the holidays. But one of the reasons why too is because people have raised their kids and their kids graduated from high school. They've gone on to college and now they're like, okay, I'm going to do it now. So I just wanted to talk about a woman who might be 10 years away from that and trying to anticipate that, or is in that space. Because if you Google staying in the marriage for the kids, what I found is that there's— the answer is don't do it. Don't do it, right? It's bad for the kids. You shouldn't, you know, be in conflict in a home, and that's more damaging than the whole separating thing. So I want to just talk about, okay, well, let's talk about what that looks like if you are and if you're contemplating it,

right? Absolutely. And actually, I, I've seen both. I've seen some studies and research that says don't do it, but because it is damaging for the kids. But then I've also seen some studies and research that says if you're going to do it, yes, do it, because divorce is disruptive for the kids. And so I think that there's, you know, two sides of the coin. But at the end of the day, I think it's about asking ourselves if, you know, or when we find ourselves in that situation, what is my goal? What is my motive here? And what are my intentions? And starting from that place. And I think that once we know whatever that foundational thing is, then we can start to build or modify according to that.

Oh, I like that. Okay, so I think that's a great question because I wanted to talk about You know, when can it work? When can it definitely not work? And then what are things we need to consider? So you said, what's my goal and what's my intention? What do you— what would you say is a healthy goal and intention? And what would you say is a not so healthy one?

But the first healthy goal to me that comes to mind is I want my children to grow up in a 2-parent household. I want my children to have less disruption in their day-to-day routine. I want my children to have a stable home Or stable environment, and I want my children to have the experience of seeing the, the both of us stay together and to parent them together under that same roof. When it does not feel okay is when it's like, okay, I want us to stay together, but the home that we're in is disruptive. And so we have to weigh out what's going to cause more disruption, the home that we're in where we're in conflict as partners, or having a home that is going through the divorce process.

I think, and I think that is the key because even psychotherapist William Dougherty has noted that the academic literature has arrived at this consensus that children do best in a stable, reasonably low-conflict married family. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. If that's not you, and despite your and a therapist's best efforts, you can't fix the relationship, I urge you to consider divorce as a legitimate choice. It's possible that a successful divorce may be the very best thing you can do for the kids. So I know what a lot of women are struggling with is where's the line? So all of the professionals are telling us, okay, it's not good for kids to be in a home where parents aren't in a loving, healthy, happy relationship. But we know divorce also comes with its own damage. So how do we judge that line between how much conflict is enough? You know, when is it too much? What is, What types of conflict, right? What does that look like?

Right, right. I think there's some very standard answers. Like, I think as you and I work in the mental health field, we can agree that a home that is filled with a lot of anger, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, domestic violence, that those are chaotic environments that children do not thrive in and do not do well in. And in some cases are reportable by child abuse reporting laws. You know, children are experiencing these type of environments. So there's that. And then there's the other side, like, okay, Okay, we argue every once in a while. We get on each other's nerves every once in a while. We're sleeping in separate rooms. We're together, but we're not showing a loving relationship. And so there's that argument because studies show that children learn from us. And if they're learning from us that partnership is about sleeping in separate rooms or partnership is about being in the same household but not showing affection to one another, then that can have an impact too. So we could truly go down the rabbit hole. But I think one of the best things that we can do for ourselves is to consider what is— what does that look like for me and for my family. I'm a big fan of educating and empowering the clients that I work with, even parents, to be able to make rules and decisions for their own relationship and to make rules and decisions for their own parenting. Because again, we know what's like illegal or what's child abuse. Right. And, you know, we know those extremes. Everything else is like that fine gray area in between where we have to decide what works best for us. Because, you know, there's so many— there's so much research out there There's so many studies out there. There's so many like ways of being a parent and doing parenting. And so you just have to find your lane and be like, this works for us, for my values, for my family system, for the future of my family. This is what's working. And then once you make your decision, it doesn't matter what people outside of your nuclear family have to say because you've chosen what you feel is in the best interest of your family.

You know, I think that's such a good point because as I was thinking about this, I think about clients. I think about people that I know. that are in really high conflict kind of relationships and aren't even considering divorce. That's just how they live their life, right?

That is true, yes.

And, you know, and, you know, you look at some even, you know, subsets of cultures and they're like, yeah, I grew up in the screaming family and that's just kind of, you know, how my family was. And I think what you're pointing to when you talk about uniqueness, looking at yourself, is the energy that you bring to it, right? Because if you are, you know, in this like I said, I have some clients who are just crazy conflict, but also very much in love and very, you know, have what I can see despite what the things that are going through, a really intact, healthy family, healthy-ish, I should say. Right. And I think the energy that you bring to it makes a big difference because kids do kind of— the good and the bad is that kids grow up thinking that whatever they experience is normal. Right. And that affects them moving forward. But if they're in an environment, I think hostile consistently makes a very big difference than maybe conflict that is also very much woven and embraced with love and, and positive energy, right, and purpose for a family. It all looks very different. And I think that's why maybe it's so hard to go, well, yes, you should, or yes or no, you shouldn't, because there are a lot of nuances, and especially when it comes to that energy. Yeah.

Yes, yes, so many nuances. And, and I do agree with you when, when the conflict is consistent, because one thing that we know to be true about that and the way that children are impacted, and even us as adults, is like it creates a system where we're constantly on alert and our nervous system is always activated. Like, okay, what do I do? Do I need to run? Do I need to hide? Do I need to fight? Do I need to flight? And so living in that, that space of being consistently on alert can increase anxiety, can increase depression, and so many other things and make us feel unstable. is one of the things that we don't want for our children is to be in this environment where they feel unstable, where they don't feel safe, because that absolutely will impact how they do relationships moving forward.

Right. And so I wonder, as we're just talking about that, if 2 people who maybe don't feel like they're in love anymore can still model out those healthy facets of marriage or family life where there might be conflict and there's healthy resolution and there's still a lot of love going around. Do you feel like that's, that's possible?

Oh, absolutely. I do think it's possible. I do think that 2 healthy, loving, open, communicative adults can live in these settings. And we've seen people do it. You know, we've heard of people that are— you know, live a lifestyle where they're in the media, where they've done it, and that it works. And I think also what's connected to that too, a myth that I want to dispel, is that a lot of times we have this impression that divorce is ugly. And yes, it can be. You know, we've seen that in movies. We've seen it in real life with friends, couples, family Members, it absolutely can be ugly. However, we've also seen divorce happen and it works. It's in the best interest of the family, and it's healthy, and there's open communication, and there isn't that nastiness. And even where the bond gets stronger because now the divorce has happened, and these two people that were not good fit for each other have made that decision to to go their separate ways and to live, you know, in divorce. So so it doesn't have to be ugly. And we can do it. I think the biggest piece is communication. It boils down to having open communication. And then it also, not just with each other, but also with our children. There are sometimes where kids already know. You know, they're like, oh, I already know, Mom, that you are not into Dad. Or, oh, Dad, I already know that you are not into Mom. Or to, you know, your partner or significant other. Sometimes children know. And we think that we're doing them a favor by not telling them or living in secrecy about the truth about our marriage. They see us day to day, and they see how we're operating, or maybe even not operating, or they see that one partner slept in another room or slept on the couch, and like, something's going on there. And I think to prevent children from creating their own stories, that we have to have a discussion with them, an age-appropriate discussion, but to have a discussion with them when we're ready.

So let's talk about that, because if we talk about the concept of staying together for the kids, What kind of discussion goes on there with the kids, number one? And then, you know, sometimes the whole staying together for the kids is a one-sided, like, decision. So at what point do you think it's important, number one, to involve the kids in that process? Is that important? And then number two, involve your spouse in that process. What if you're just thinking, I'm just hanging on for this time? Do you think it's a discussion that should be agreed upon? How fair is it, you know, to the other partner, I guess?

I think it's a discussion to have with the other partner when you know. Like, if you're in your thinking process, it may not— you may not feel compelled to have that discussion. But when you know, or when you've made up your mind, or even if you want to be proactive and have the discussion before you've made up— before you've made up your mind, excuse me, I feel that something like that, like, you can't overcommunicate it to the person that you're with. But I think that even if you're not literally saying it, like, hey, I'm here, but I only want to be here for the sake of the children, that it's going to show up in other ways. That if your partner is not on the same page, it may show up in lovemaking. It may show up in affection or lack thereof. It may show up in forgetting anniversaries or birthdays or certain holidays. So it's going to show up in some way. And so again, instead of putting our partner and our children in a position where now they're creating these stories and fantasies for themselves, we're having an open communication about what the reality is of the situation. And so when we know for ourselves, I think then it's important to have a discussion with our partner. And then once partner to partner to partner can get on the same page, they can talk about what does this look like with us telling the children? Are we telling the children? When do we tell the children? I'm, I'm all about making choices together in partnership, whether you're married or not, whether you're deciding to stay together or not. Like, we're making choices in partnership because at the end of the day, we are even having this discussion because we want the best for our children.

Absolutely. That makes sense. Yeah, I'm just thinking of the aspect of alerting the children that parents are only staying together, you know, for the purpose of them.

I think it's about wording.

Yeah,

I think it's about wording it. I feel like if— and maybe even just putting myself in a position, I grew up in a single mom household. So I didn't have the experience of growing up with both parents in the home. But even just thinking about like my own children, I'm married, my husband and I have been married for 11 years. But even just thinking about my own children, I I would not communicate it to them, we're staying together for you. I think that that puts a level of responsibility on them that's not fair.

Right.

That's not fair to them.

Makes sense.

I would reframe it or share it in a way that is in their best interests. And for example, we've decided to stay together for these reasons, so that you two have a stable home, or so that you guys can stay in your same school, or so that we don't have to disrupt your lives by having you in two different homes, or whatever it is, you know, thinking about the positives rather than putting the responsibility of like, oh, we're just doing this for you.

Right. And that's assuming that the kids then know that there's a decision to make though, right?

Right. That's true. Absolutely.

That there's some decision being made because I, I would imagine that that decision could be made behind closed doors and not ever necessarily discussed with the children in that way. But maybe there are other subtle ways that you could have a discussion about love and family and commitment and things that are more broad that maybe aren't specific to we're staying together because we want, you know, this family unit. Although kids ask questions, you know, and certainly I—

Yes, they do.

When a child asks a question, then that's the point to have some candid conversations. Yeah.

Right, absolutely. And even in having those candid conversations, when it comes to communicating with their children, I'm a big fan of, of when they come and ask the question, ask them first, what do you think? You know, and I'll use the example of the question that all parents are know it's coming at some point during our child— during our children's childhood, which is, where do babies come from? They're like, ah, like, I'm not ready to have that discussion yet. And so to prevent ourselves as parents from freaking out or from oversharing, we have to start with— encourage us to start with, what do you think?

Mm-hmm.

And then see what they say. If they give some, like, off-the-wall answer that's just like, okay, that's not grounded in reality, then we know how much to share or what to correct according to their age and their understanding. But if they give a— if they're 6 and they give an answer like, Oh, well, I think God puts the baby in, in mommy's belly, and then, then we have a little brother. Yes, that's exactly what happens. That's enough information for them to understand at their age. But we don't know that if we automatically start trying to share information or correct. First, let's ask them, well, what do you think? And then we know where to go from there.

That is such great advice, because I think so many parents get into trouble because we are thinking from this adult brain, right? And all the things that we know. And we, we have to listen to our kids. And I think that statement works all throughout childhood, even into adolescence. Absolutely. When kids ask you the really big questions, or even when they don't, asking them, what's your opinion? Because a lot of times we're going to preach, we're going to lecture, we're going to give them all of our opinion without really getting into their mind. But by asking that question, our kids are sharing with us their thoughts, their ideas, their beliefs, and it's so important for us to know. Yes. Yeah, beautiful.

Absolutely. And I want to rewind a little bit, Dr. Zoe. You, you were— before we start talking about how to communicate it with the children, you made a statement and you said, you know, that's assuming that the children know, or that's assuming that we're going to tell the children that, you know, about this decision that we've made behind closed doors. I absolutely agree with you. However, I think that now we're having an even broader conversation, because if we're making the decision that we've made this— if we're making the choice, we made the decision decision, excuse me, behind closed doors, we're not telling the children yet, then we also need to talk about and get on the same page about what this looks like. Are we still sleeping in the same bed? Are we still lovemaking? Are we able to date outside of this? And what does that look like? Like, what happens when one of us is out on a date and our child is asking, where's, where's so-and-so? Where's so-and-so? And so I think that that ensues like a bigger discussion that we must get on the same page about as well.

Oh, that's very interesting. So that would be assuming that the family unit is staying together, but then Things are changing in terms of how the marriage is actually looking. Yeah.

Yes.

Right. So when rules and ideas change about whether we're actually going to, you know, act as a married unit in the same way that we did before, are we separating inside of our home but maintaining a home for the children? Those are definite conversations that have to be had without a doubt. Otherwise, it's fine.

Yeah, absolutely.

Like you said, kids are going to create their own stories and ideas about what About what this looks like. Yeah, great.

Right. And we will too, as adults, you know, especially if we have different understandings about what divorce means or what staying together but not being together means. And one of us could be thinking like, okay, well, if you said we're not together, then I can go out to the streets to get my needs met. And you're like, no, no, no, that's not what I said. That's not what I meant. And so it's important to have that discussion upfront so that there is limited or minimal miscommunication about what that is.

That's very important. So if we're staying together for the kids, what does this look like for us as a couple? You know, as, as still, I would assume, legally married people, what does this look like?

Right.

That's an excellent question. So what are the considerations? So as I'm thinking, okay, so let's talk about some considerations with divorce. So if you're going to go ahead and decide, you know what, I don't want to stay together for the kids. I don't think it's in our best interest. What do you think are some important considerations in divorcing regarding the relationship?

I think some important considerations are looking at how much this will disrupt the children. Does this mean that now they have to change schools? Does this mean that now we're living in separate homes? Is one person moving out of state or out of the country? Who's going to have— what does legal joint medical sole custody look like of the children? Like, all of these things that we have to consider. And what does this look like financially for the children? Will this be a change in lifestyle for the children or for all of us? You know, I think that those are things to consider as well, because those are going to be things that, you know, just the children's basic safety and basic needs will have to be identified and met first so that they know like, all right, no matter what happens, I'm loved, I'm fed, I have a warm place to sleep, I still have my friends, I still have my belongings. Like all of those things, you know, can work children up if there's a disruption in that. So I think that that is a great place to be able to start if we're looking at the children first.

Right. That makes a lot of sense. You know, I think that when people start to hear all of that, they probably get overwhelmed. And that's a lot of the reason also why they might feel like, okay, I think I'm just gonna stay and just kind of try to figure this out in the best way, which might, which might be a good option. But obviously, if it's not in the best interest of you and your family, then it's taking each of those steps carefully, slowly, and knowing that people do it and you can do it, but there are definitely things that need to be considered. Yes. You know, another thing I think is really important, um, to consider when you're looking at staying versus going is the understanding that your relationship with your spouse is not ever going to end. So a lot of times people feel like, well, you know, I wanna get rid of him, or I wanna get rid of the influence that he has on my children. And that I think is kind of a slippery slope because We don't get rid of the influence our spouse has on our children by divorcing them. In fact, sometimes their influence can get stronger because they, it has, you know, they have an influence completely away from us now, when before we kind of maybe, you know, kind of mitigated some things and we're not able to anymore. So I think it's important to just look at that aspect. If one of your motivations is to divorce, to try to minimize the impact or, you know, the influence that your spouse has on the child, That's not gonna work. You will be definitely minimizing the influence that conflict has on your child, but you're not gonna be minimizing the influence that the spouse has on the child. So then I think the important thing is to figure out what can I do in a working relationship with this person, because divorcing them is not going to get rid of that, so that I'm addressing the issues that are bothering me about, you know, this influence.

Yes, so true. And that's where the concept of co-parenting comes into play.

Right, yeah.

What does co-parenting look like for us? Because that is something that we have to decide together and communicate together. And there may be some trial and error in there. There may be some things that you're trying, like, oh, this isn't working, we need to revamp it, and being open to have those discussions. I've also had, you know, friends and clients who've made mention that my ex and I are better as co-parents than we were as parents or as married people together, and that they have a better relationship As friends, and then it's healthier. And so there can be hope in that, knowing again that divorce doesn't have to be detrimental or this huge disruption, but that it can possibly be an even better relationship depending on your circumstance.

Yes, good point. So let's talk about if you decide, you know what, I think that our conflict level is, is not high enough. I feel that the benefit in the way that we parent and our relationship is enough that we could stay together. For the children. What are some things that you can do to make this the healthiest experience for yourself and your spouse possible? You know, I think back to Will and Jada Smith. I saw some interview about, you know, them and they were talking about their marriage and, you know, they had made a commitment to each other that we are just not going to divorce basically, no matter what happens, we're going— we're— that's not gonna be an option we put on the table. And when They felt that when they approached their marriage that way, their only answer was to figure out how to make it work, right? And so what are some considerations, or what are some options? And I'm kind of getting into your book right now because you wrote a book about— well, actually, why don't you explain your book, and then we'll talk about some options or things that people can look at if they're choosing to stay together for the children,

right? Absolutely. So, um, the title of my book is called The Love Challenge. And it's 30 Days, 30 Ways to Increase the Love in Your Relationship. And the way that it's set up, it is a daily challenge. It's bite-sized things that you can do every day to add value to that relationship. And some of those examples are being able to speak each other's love language, being able to identify what that is, not just your partner's, but also your own, being able to openly communicate your feelings with the other person without blaming or putting the responsibility on the other person what your feelings are, being able to spend time together, being able to make a proper apology. It is common that people say, well, I'm sorry you feel that way. Well, excuse me, that is not a proper apology. And so being able to make a proper apology— so there's little bite-sized tips within the book to help couples or partners to be able to build the intimacy and to build the communication within the relationship. And the beauty of it is that not both people have to do it. One person can do the challenge even without the knowledge of the other person, and value can still be added.

I really like that because it kind of hurts my heart to think about women putting, you know, all their life— well, not all of their life, but putting their life, their goals, their dreams on hold, you know, until their children grow up so that they can now divorce and start, you know, life. So I would just encourage a woman out there who is in that place maybe of trying to decide or have already— have already deciding that they want to stay because of the kids to not look at this as a holding pattern. but to rather look at this as this is your life and this is what you're choosing to do for the best interest of your family. And so how can you still live a vibrant, healthy, goal-driven life, not just in terms of the rest of your life, but for you and your relationship? And if you're going to have a relationship with this man, right, um, how can you make it the best possible? It doesn't mean that you have to be married to him forever, but at least for this time period, and considering you share children together, how can you still foster some intimacy? How can you still work on maybe trying to build during these years that you're, you're waiting to see? So I think that, that might be a good resource.

Yeah, absolutely. Because even if you've decided you're going to stay, but you're— you don't want to be in the marriage, um, for the sake of intimacy or being together, there's still communication. And so we have to learn how to be able to communicate openly. And I think part of that communication is also learning how to communicate with ourselves and understanding our own thoughts and feelings. And, um, ultimately, Ultimately, at the end of the day, it's all about where do I, where do I stand in this? Like, yes, I may have made the decision to stay for the children or to not stay, but when I go to lay my head on my pillow, what are my thoughts and my feelings about my choices and my decision? Am I happy?

Mm-hmm.

You know, in my work with, in my, in my private practice, I work with a lot of individuals and helping them to prioritize themselves and helping them to stop neglecting themselves. And so if I think about it from that lens, if I've decided to stay for the children Where do I fall in that? Where do I fall in in that decision? And when I think about that decision I've made, am I happy? Am I happy? Because ultimately your heart is going to bleed whatever is in it. And if in your heart you are unhappy, that's going to bleed. That's going to show up. If in your heart you're like, "I'm happy. My children are safe. I feel joy about this decision," then that's what's going to bleed. And so just asking that question to yourself and being honest with yourself as you're in the quiet of your mind.

I think that's so beautiful. And I hope that it gives a woman hope so that she doesn't feel that she's in a holding pattern. Because the reality is, is that you can have joy and you can have happiness, even if you're not in the perfect situation in terms of maybe your dreams or your fantasy about what your family or your relationship would look like. It is absolutely possible to find a space where you can recognize that there are some deficits, But you can figure out how to fill yourself up and find joy and happiness in this space right now. And because this present is all we have, I think that, that we— I know that we owe that to ourselves, not to wait to find joy and happiness. So thank you. Thank you very much for this conversation. Is there anything else that you'd like to add maybe to a woman who's in this place?

Yes, I would like to tell her that whatever she chooses, Whatever she decides, it is her choice. It is her decision, and that no one can take that away from her. And even if, you know, she finds herself in this holding pattern of waiting for the children to go off to college, to remember this, that that is a season. And one thing that we know to be true about seasons is that they change.

Right.

At some point, that season will change, and we just prepare ourselves for the next one.

Beautiful. Thank you so much, Melissa. How can people get a hold of you?

Thank you so much for having me. It has been a pleasure. They can find me on social media. Instagram is where I live the most. My Instagram handle is @gladtidingsbymel, and basically that just means good news by Mel. Mel is short for Melissa. So that is the best place to find me. You can also find me, um, at my private practice, which is You Help U. It's the letter U, the word help, and then the word you. So those would be the best 2 places to stay in contact. My book is available on Barnes& Noble and also on Amazon and on my website.

Awesome. I love your, your Instagram. And even I'm looking, you guys can't necessarily see, but the bright yellow, your Instagram is yellow too. It's just so, yeah, just lifts you up. Beautiful.

Yes, it's my favorite. Just wanted to bring a little sunshine to everybody's timeline.

You definitely do that. You definitely do that. Thank you for coming on today.

Thank you.

Thank you for listening to Stronger in the Difficult Places. I hope that this episode has given you hope if you're walking in this difficult place. And I also hope that you are seeking out support in all the ways— reach out to me, reach out to a therapist, reach out to a friend. Subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Episodes come out every Tuesday. Hit me up on Insta and have a great week. Bye. Have a strong week. Bye.