Tips For Coping With Loneliness During the Holidays with Michele Dekeyser

Hey there, it's Dr. Zoe. Welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. It's been a while since I've done an in-person interview, so I'm excited to have Michelle Dykster, if I'm pronouncing her name right. We're going to be talking about loneliness, especially over the holiday seasons, and what you can do about it. If you're interested in hearing about my wins and my fails, you can tune into anywhere you can listen to a podcast, but I'm going to try to start sharing them here as well. But for today, we're just going to talk to Michelle and talk about Getting over loneliness. Listen in. Michelle, I am so thrilled to have you on today. Thank you for coming.

I'm just so excited to be here. And thank you for offering to have me on today. I just think it's a topic that we really just need to discuss more.

Yeah. It was funny because behind the scenes, I was telling you, I'm excited to talk about loneliness, which sounds a little funny.

That's funny, isn't it? You're excited about it.

I am. But you know what? I'm excited for people who need to hear it because especially during this season, it's a season of joy. It's a season of excitement and giving. But the reality is, for a lot of people, it's also a season of loneliness. And I've had friends this year who have had multiple deaths in their family. I've had friends who've had divorces. I've had friends who've lost friend groups. And so the reality is that not that we're exempt from loneliness any other time of the year, but definitely this time of the year, That creeps in, and it's not something that we talk about a lot. So I'm thrilled to have you here today.

I agree because there's something— I even did a 12 Days of Genuine Connection through the holidays. So there is something about the holidays where it puts the pressure on. And it's trying to release some of that pressure, but it's still there. I don't know if we've done it as a society or what, but we feel— and even as moms, we definitely feel that a little bit more. But everyone— and then there's a certain thing you have to hold to it. And if you're not upholding to it, then you feel it even deeper. And so that's why it was perfect timing to talk about this as well because we feel that. And we need to acknowledge it. And we're not alone. That's, I think, what we need to acknowledge the most is that you're not alone.

You're not alone. And even as you were just saying that, I was thinking, oh, and we didn't even talk about the people that are amidst family and lots of people and are still feeling very lonely. So yeah, I think we need to—

Sometimes you even feel lonelier when you're amidst people and you can't feel that. That almost sometimes makes you feel even lonelier in a sense.

It does. Can you start out— I love your brand, by the way, Connecting Mamas. Just what a beautiful metaphor. I just love that, Connecting Mamas. Can you start out by sharing with my listener your story of loneliness?

Well, I feel like I've always— I mean, since a child, had this feeling of not belonging. But what actually drove me to start Connecting Mamas was that feeling of motherhood. Once you had the child and you had all this surrounding you, but you felt still like you're missing something. You felt this sense of loneliness of purpose. And that's what kind of— how do we do that? How we feel like we are supposed to, but we feel as a society like we're supposed to do this alone. So I felt like I couldn't ask for help.

Right.

Like, that would be putting myself down or like, I need to be independent. I need to be the great mom. I need to be able to do this by myself. But we're not. Actually made to do that. That's how I was feeling, that feeling of loneliness. And so what actually started this was I'd go to book clubs or I'd go to moms groups, and you'd feel like this really sense of camaraderie while you're around that table and you're like, yeah, we can do this together, right? Yeah. Then the next day hits and all of a sudden, like, who do I call? Who can actually help me through this moment that I'm going through right now? I don't have anyone that I feel like can actually just pick the phone and call. and talk about, like, it was great yesterday, but what do I do today?

Mm-hmm.

And so that's kind of what even drove me to do this was I want them to have— I want everyone to have that sense of I can call this person right now. And that's what I want to create, that kind of community, because I felt that loss, that loneliness, like I want help. I don't know how to ask for it. I don't know what to do to get it. And I struggled so much with that. And even I'll have to— one of the biggest sense of loneliness is I even finally did create my first— what I was used to call it Circle of Grace, and I still do call it for the actual group itself, because as women, we need to give each other grace and create this comfort. But as I stepped into this group, like, it almost felt like too much for me. Like, once you had that connection and stuff. And what I realized from that is, as I had to remove myself from that group, was that we need baby steps. Because for so long, I, I didn't have this. And then all of a sudden to have it, it was like overwhelming, this overwhelming sense of it. And so as even as a society, we've created these houses, these boxes, these cars. Right. And as soon as you see a person, like, you look down, right? Don't connect. Don't make that connection. So we can't just go from that to, okay, let's surround ourselves and be this togetherness. And we see that want that, but in reality, we have to take baby steps. And so that's what I even realized for myself is that I had to make bridges, that I couldn't just go from here and jump straight in. And I'm sure most people feel that way because if we do, then all of a sudden physically, like trauma and stuff of the past is what held me back from even opening up and being close with these women. And so I again go back to my feelings of like, okay, well, I'm just gonna pull myself out. And that's what I ended up doing. And I see that as other people. So that kind of guided me in, in this creation is why this— what I do is on Zoom, why it's in a virtual system to still give them support. But it's that bridge. Like, we need to take baby steps. We can't just jump into the deep end to actually get past this loneliness. It's in our bodies. Right. We have to figure out how to get past that. And so that's what I had been working on and why I created the way I did to make those steps and to find those women that I can call to. So I do have people I can reach out and say, okay, I need something today. I need to chat. I need to talk. But it took time, and it takes those steps.

I love that you say that because we can look on Instagram, and I just did this whole post because I had this weekend, amazing weekend trip with a bunch of psychology women. And some people were putting on there, oh, I wish we could have that. And And I think we look on social media and we see these connections and we think, I want that. I want that connection. But you made a really great point that there are baby steps. There are lots of steps that get to that point, and there are bridges. And I think a lot of people, especially because there's a subset of people who struggle with connecting, who struggle with— who aren't that gregarious. Yeah. Right. And so, and then there's a subset of those people who really want it but don't really know how to do that. But you're right, you can't go from 0 to 100 because of lots of reasons. Number one, it's just kind of not the social way things develop. Number two, like you said, there's vulnerability that, that happens that can cause you to pull back or somebody else to pull back. And so you've got to learn this social exchange if you want that relationship. And it does take time and it does take investment. And let's just even say sometimes awkwardness, being willing to sit in the awkward, right? Um,

in the silence, that's the hardest.

Oh, yes. Someone was— a client was just telling me, I'm great on text because there's no awkward silences, but when I get in person, then I don't know what to do and it feels very uncomfortable. So I'm glad you said that. So let's—

The other thing is— sorry, one thing with the silences is that's when we fill things in, like, because we don't want the uncomfortable silences, and then we shut the person off. Because if we let the uncomfortable silence, that gives them an opportunity to finish their thoughts or think about their thoughts instead of you reacting, fixing, trying to say to them, this is what you should do. We should just listen and accept that comfortable silence. Put your hand out, reach over to them, something, but don't open your mouth. Even purse your lips if you have to. Like, let's listen intentionally to each other and not worry about what we're going to say. Mm-hmm. What they're going to do. It's all about listening. And if you do want to say something, just repeat what they said. Make sure you're understanding. Don't put your 2 cents in.

That's a great—

let those silences happen.

Yeah. That's a great therapeutic tool. We definitely use that in my work. And it is really powerful because I also have to do that sometimes. Like, just shut up, Zoe. Stop. Whatever you have to say is not that important. Let them speak, right? So let's give a— let's give a hand up for just silence and the reality of the social uncomfortableness of it sometimes, but the importance of it, because from silence, I do think really good things come. From silence comes really sometimes the authentic stuff if you're willing. To sit in it.

Patience is virtue, and we try to finish each other's sentences. That might not be what they were going to say, and now you've just closed them off.

Oh, I'm so guilty of that. I do that with my kids. I do that with my friends. I'm always—I'm like, okay, let's—I know. I already know what you're going to say. Let's finish this up. Um, okay. So let's talk.

I have learned a lot about my kids by doing that.

Ah.

Just, just like, I've really been practicing that with them, especially just repeating what they're saying, not trying to solve their social dilemmas for them, but just, I, if I feel like speaking, I just try to reiterate what they say and see if they're going to say something different. And, and sometimes the other thing to do is ask if they want something from you, if they want, and maybe they don't. Give them the choice. Right. You don't, they don't need your 2 cents all the time.

That's so true. That's so true. I need to put my $0.02 back in my pocket often. So those are some great skills, some tips for communicating when there's someone to communicate with. But let's get back to the loneliness part. What— let's talk about some of those baby steps for someone who's sitting in their car or apartment or home and just saying, well, yeah, that's great. But I don't even have anybody to do that with right now. I feel like I have zero connection. Or the people that I'm connected with, I'm not really deeply connected with, and I'm feeling very lonely. What do I do about that?

Well, again, we're looking at baby steps. And so the first thing you just ask yourself is, what is one thing I want to do for myself today? Not anyone else. But in terms of that, what am I going to enjoy today? And even I struggle with this sometimes. Like, I'm so in the busy mode. Like, I had to stop yesterday because— I was like on one of those modes where I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna go, go, go. We're getting ready for vacation. My son even had to tell me, Mom, don't take your computer on. You're working too much. But that lonely feeling, and also I'm like, what can I do today? And all of a sudden I was like, okay, well, I have all these things I need to do. But you know what? I had 20 minutes in the car and my daughter, and like we went to go look at Christmas lights because it's something I wanted to do. And so It's more taking those baby steps to figuring what that is. Because when we're so lonely or we don't know, we don't even— we're not curious anymore. We don't think about it. So we've got to open that curiosity up just to find something for 10 minutes that I enjoy. Because once you open the door to the curiosity, the things that you're enjoying, and you start moving towards those things, then you're going to find the right people. Because you don't want the people who aren't doing things you like doing or that aren't attracted to that light. Right. Because then you're in the people-pleasing mode and all that stuff.

Mm-hmm.

So the key really is, is we do have to go inwards to figure out what do we like? Because when we're shining that light is when we're gonna start attracting the people. And I know it's a vicious cycle, but that's why it's baby steps. It's just one thing to open that curiosity up to what do I enjoy and just start taking note of that. Write it down, do it again. And it's like doing it for 10 minutes for like each day for a week. Like, it's small processes. And I know it's a whole brain thought. And I know you're thinking, oh, I'm so lonely. I can't do that. I can't. But it's a choice to just take that first step. We're only talking about one step because when we start thinking too far ahead, that is too much.

Yes.

So, and it might take you a day to figure out what's one thing you can do for 10 minutes. But just opening yourself to that question and being curious. Hmm, I want to just go get a coffee. Do I want to go do this? Am I going to enjoy that? Like asking yourself for just pure enjoyment, which is something I've been like struggling with even recently now too. Like thinking about that again, I got so into the work mode. I'm like, what am I enjoying about the holidays? And that's when I was like, I need to take a pause and say, this is what I'm going to do right now, and then steer me in that direction. And then my whole face just kind of changed just from that 10 minutes that we did. I must admit, we came home and she turned into a complete beast. She was very happy during that, and then she turned into a complete beast. But because we did that, I was in a like, you know, laughing at her throwing her tantrum when I got home. Like, I don't want to brush my teeth. And then she went and put herself in her bed for a little while to calm down. And like, my reaction mode, because I did that, because you felt yourself out.

Had I not, exactly.

Had I not, I would just start yelling at her like, get to bed, blah blah blah. But before, I just, I was like, Well, she's going to do that. I'm just going to sit here with Liam. And we were almost kind of laughing about it, like, okay, well, what can you do? But that's what the baby steps do, is giving you that space to get the reaction. But then for the loneliness, it's finding your light. We're looking for our light to shine to others. And so it's that baby step that will take us there. And then we're going to find the right people we want to connect with.

Right. I love that. And, you know, for a listener out there, especially if you're listening during the holidays, which it is right now, A lot of times when we're by ourselves, you know, if we find ourselves by ourselves, newly by ourselves, or we're just lonely, we, we imagine or kind of tell ourselves that there's nothing for us to do. We don't think about traditions. Like when you think about what do you enjoy, I want you to think back to maybe your childhood or, or traditions that you really loved. You don't necessarily have to have someone there to do the tradition with you. I would encourage you to continue traditions. that mattered to you, that you enjoyed, that you remember a sense of comfort and peace from, even though it might be just by yourself. I talk a lot about how important it is for, for us to be friends with ourselves, for us to like spending time with ourselves. And during this time, I think, is a time when we really need to capitalize on that. I don't want to ignore the fact that we as humans are social beings. And so the loneliness is not Just because you don't like being with yourself. The loneliness is because we are social beings, and that's okay. But we can honor that and also make a practice of continuing things that were important to us, that mattered to us, that feel good to us, even by ourselves.

The one thing I want to remind your listeners is that a lot of the— a lot of it is learned behavior, and some of it is like society-based, like because We used to live as tribes. We used to have that connection. And now we've gone to living in our little houses, living in our little boxes. And it's, it's just something that we did. And so we have that body motion to go with it. And it is a readjustment. And I'm not saying it's easy. That's why I keep saying the word baby steps, because it's one step at a time. We can't just go from— I mean, you think about animals. We are tech— we are animals.

Right.

And we've kind of put ourselves in this sort of captivity, like, and then to throw an animal back into wild. I mean, you think of an animal in captivity and you go throw them into the wild, what kind of transition is going to have to happen? And that, that's us right now. Like, this loneliness is that deep feeling. And so it's hard to make that first conscious choice for something different. And that's, but that's where we're looking at. We're talking about the different things you can do And it is— I can remember even before, like when I first met my husband and I was what I called basically kind of like a substitute teacher. But like, I'd come home and I didn't know what to do with myself at that time, right? Like, I'd just sit there and watch TV or like, I didn't know what to do or enjoy my time. Now it's like I have like so many things I want to do.

Yeah.

In that time, it was like, how do I fill that all up? But that was a Like a transition. It was a progression. It wasn't like it just happened automatically. And I lost a lot of that in motherhood as well.

Mm-hmm.

And so I can see some of your listeners who are mothers are just like, I'm too overwhelmed with the kids. I can't do this. And I totally understand that. But at the same time, 10 minutes or like one choice, just start with one thing. And that's why I can't stop emphasizing that because it is not easy.

Right.

But this is a starting point.

That makes sense.

Of making that change.

What do you think about inviting yourself? Michelle Dempsey of Moms Moving On, she talks about, especially over the holidays, putting yourself out there and letting your friends know, hey, I'm lonely, or letting maybe an acquaintance who could be a friend know, I'm lonely. I'd like someone to do this holiday thing with, or I'd like to come Over to your house on Christmas Eve? Or, you know, what do you think about, about that maybe scary step of inviting yourself?

That, that is like a scary feeling, right? Like, what if they say no? Okay, they said no. But what if they say yes? I think that's actually the scarier part that makes us scared to do it. Like, all of a sudden, like, oh, now I do have to go. I think that's actually what holds us back more than the rejection sometimes is like, What happens if I actually get to go?

Yeah.

And so what I would say is picture yourself with those people. Picture what you want to happen before you ask. Because a lot of times it's those expectations that we don't project out there or that we determine are already going to happen, that story in our head that we're already telling ourselves. So picture that good side. Picture what they— if they say yes, what would that look like to you? How is that going to feel to you? And even if they say no because of whatever reason, right, you don't know unless you put yourself out there. And that is the hardest thing. But put yourself in the frame of mind to ask before asking.

I love that. And, you know, we, we imagine, well, if people wanted us to come, they would invite us. But unfortunately, everyone's thinking about themselves and they're busy and they might not be realizing or recognizing that maybe in the season of your life you're, you're lonely, or you're by yourself. And so I don't think we can assume— we should never assume that other people are going to take care of us, right, or be aware of what our needs are. We have to put our needs out there to our people, and if we do that regularly, we get to know the depth of our relationships. We can increase the depth of our relationships. It gives us information. It also Very likely is going to give us connection.

Right. And what I would say is the biggest thing is listen to your gut. Like, your gut, when you actually sit there in stillness and say— you ask your gut, like, is this person really someone I would want to spend the holidays with? Is this someone that I'm willing to be vulnerable with to ask them? If the answer is no, then don't. But if it is yes, take that step and ask them. Because you don't know. Like you're just saying, we don't know what's going through people's head. They may not realize that we need that unless you ask. And the hardest thing to do sometimes is ask for help. But think about when someone asks you for help.

Yes.

What is your reaction to that? But do you want to ask for help? No, none of us do. But if someone asks you, you're willing to drop everything and help that person. So think about them being in those shoes, willing to help you.

Right.

The more we do that, the more connection we're going to make.

Absolutely.

You know, I want to help each other.

We do.

And they might not be able to, but it might be, well, you can't come for Christmas, but maybe we can do this for lunch or do something else. It doesn't necessarily have to be that thing. It might lead to something else.

Yeah. You know, I think about some of the most fun holidays I've had have been having people over at my house that I don't really know that well because maybe we were just newly acquainted or I found out maybe they weren't doing something and I invited them over and having, you know, new relationships over the holidays have just been fun, really fun. But if I wasn't made aware maybe that that person didn't have any plans or didn't, you know, have someone at that moment to spend the holidays with, I never would have invited them. And I don't even necessarily see it as help. I see it as connection, as just offering your connection to someone and seeing if they're interested.

And the other idea for people to do also is you host and invite others to come to you.

Yes.

But then here's a key to hosting. I haven't done it myself because— but one of the things that it was just a great idea that I can't remember even where I heard it or read it recently, but they have people over and they bring a dish. They give them a role like you help with the dishes, you help with this. And so everyone's working together. Because some people are introverts, and they don't want to just come to somewhere new. They, they'd rather be busy doing something and assigning them or asking them what they were willing to do, and having that communal that you don't— you can host, but you don't have to do everything. Like, people can help. It's not like because you host, you got to do all the dishes, you got to cook all this stuff. No, assign things to people, ask them what they're willing to do, because more than likely, they're more than willing to bring something, and they're more than willing to pick something up.

Absolutely.

They clean up after themselves. And then it's about the community.

Yes, exactly. The community. And give up the whole, my house isn't perfect, or I have a small place, or this. People, once again, we're social beings and we just want to connect. And so if you can get over that perfectionist— perfectionism, if you can get over your own negative self-talk, it's a lot easier to reach out to people when you are working through that. So I would encourage you to do that.

They might want the invite too. So if you're the one who decides that you don't want to ask, but you'd rather invite, go that route.

So do you have any kind of last— I mean, these have all been really great, but any ending tips for a woman out there or a man who's really kind of sitting in loneliness this season before we go? And I know you also have a check-in that you want to share with With our audience?

Well, actually, that was going to lead me to the check-in because honestly, the first letter of check-in is curiosity. And I think that that's just looking through my kids' eyes and some— we as adults have just lost that. And it honestly, it all starts back with just looking around again and saying, what do I like? And it's back to that curiosity that starts everything again because we lose it at some point. I mean, absolutely. When they do the studies at 5 years old, like, these kids are creative, they can come up with anything. And by the time we're adults, it's like 2% or something. So it's just that reminder to get back to it, because that's where it all starts. It starts with us asking those questions, looking around again in a new light. And it's as simple as— it's as simple and as hard as at the same time, because we want these right answers, we want this, and we want things a certain way that we've learned. And now it's kind of unlearning, like, Let's be a kid again. How do we play? Well, play is not productive. Play is not this way. And I struggle with that too. Like, do I want to do this with my kids? Or like, or do I want to be like the kids? And like, and even doing some of the stuff, I'm like, well, I'm not gonna do it unless they're around, because, you know. But no, I should do those things even if they're not around.

100%.

And being that curiosity again is really what goes back to us. And that's why I start with my check-in process with the curiosity, because it really That's where everything starts is us looking around and just asking why, what, what do I like? And it's starting with that.

I love that about the internal curiosity, but especially when it comes to being social, I talk to a lot of my clients because they're like, I don't know what to say. And I always say, be curious about the person in front of you. There must be thoughts that come up when you're talking to somebody you're curious about. People love to talk about themselves. And the best way to be social is to ask people about themselves. You just start asking people questions and they're going to be talking. And more curious, you know, more questions are gonna come up for you, and boom, you've got a conversation. So I love that about, about the curiosity. Can you— were you gonna say something?

And the best opener when you're talking to a new person, give them a compliment.

Yes. Yes.

Just pick out something nice, then start the questioning. But, like, just to break the ice, I really love that dress you're wearing. Those are great. Like, whatever. But, like, just to break the ice. Everyone loves a compliment.

Yes. So can you tell us more about this check-in?

Yes. So if you go to connectingmamas.com and you just click the free course, the free link right there, it'll bring you right to— just put your email address and you'll get free access to check-in. And so it's basically 7 videos, one for each letter. So C is for curiosity, and we get a little honest with ourselves. We look at expectations in a different way. And then we start to connect with the second C. And then with K is where we talk about the keep listening and we learn to close, close the keep listening part. And then the I and the N sort of go together, but it's being intentional now. And so working through our intentions and then putting that, we gotta put time to it. Like, especially with connection and meeting new people is people, you need to schedule it.

Yes.

You need to put it in your calendar. Like, don't just say, oh, we'll text each other. No. When you're in person, I get the calendar out. And even if you have to reschedule, you're more likely to do that.

True.

Than you are if it wasn't in the calendar in the first place.

Mhmm.

That it's just, it is. So with the now, it's really just putting that intention behind. You have to plan for other people and you have to plan for yourself.

Take it.

So that 10 minutes a day, start to make it a habit of intention.

I love it. I love it. Thank you so much, Michelle. So we'll put all of that in the show notes. And Michelle is gracious enough to offer you this free course. So you can go click there and access the check-in.

I will warn your audience, it is geared towards— I use the word mom because it's geared towards mom. But honestly, I've had a lot of women who weren't moms who take the course as well. So just ignore the mom word if that's not your thing. All the premises Fit for everyone.

That sounds wonderful. Thank you so much, Michelle, and I hope that you have wonderful holidays and that you reach out.

Yes, you too. And I wish your audience wonderful holidays as well. And just remember, everyone, just do your— just do your best to find what lights you up, not someone else, and then your light shines and attracts others.

Beautiful. Thank you.

Happy holidays, everyone. Thank you, Zoe.