What Narcissism Is Not

This is not a podcast about being broken, although you may have been. This is a podcast about strength for women who find themselves in difficult relationships, including that sometimes difficult one with yourself. We'll look at your relationship through a lens of psychology, faith, and a little dash of my own kind of feminism. We're not fixing them. We're fixing you. And that changes everything. Welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. Save yourself, heal your relationships. Listen in. Hey there, welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. I'm your host, Dr. Zoe, and I am so glad that you're here. I really do just want to say thank you to listeners who have been consistent in listening to me year after year, in all of my transitions, and I'm sure many more to come. I appreciate your loyalty, and I hope that I am providing you with useful and good content. If you are not on my email list, please hop on there. You can go to drzoeshaw.com, click to get added to my email list. I will be changing it a little bit in the new year and sending lots of goodies and encouragement. And so I hope you hop on there so you don't miss that. Today's topic is what narcissism is not. But first up, as usual, my win and my fail. I share this. Every week so that you guys can get to know me better and all of my foibles and wins, and so that you can learn to honor both your strengths and your deficits as well. So I'll start with my fail this week. My fail is I did not get a podcast out last week. I believe I got more podcasts out this year than I did last year. My goal is always to do weekly, but you know life happens. My son came in. I had a wonderful Thanksgiving break, so wonderful that I took time off and I didn't pre-record, and no podcast went out. But I hope that you also had a wonderful. Thanksgiving and some time with your family. And to those who could not, I hope that you cared for yourself in some special ways over the weekend. So that is my fail. My win, it's an exciting win for me. I've been sharing with you guys my publishing journey and it has been a journey. I shared with you how I went to a writing conference a few weeks ago, met with an agent, all of the worries and fears and my daughter interrupting the meeting and everything that happened during that time. Well, just to let you know, he did offer me representation. And not only that, I got offered representation from 2 other agents, and I ultimately didn't even decide to go with a guy who I was so stressed about the meeting going bad with. I am happy to report that I accepted representation from Keeley Boving at WordsServe Literary. I signed my contract, and I am thrilled to partner with them, with Keeley as my literary agent and WordsServe as the agency. to start subbing my book in January. That's a huge win for so many, many, many reasons. I am super confident that I will be getting a book deal in the next couple of months, and I look forward to serving you and a greater audience with my words. Okay, so onto the topic, what narcissism is not. I wanted to finally talk about narcissism on this podcast because after all, I do have a podcast about difficult relationships. And in case you haven't If you haven't noticed, I've mostly steered clear from talking about it. I had one episode about toxic relationships with— ooh, who was that? Sarah Ramsey? But mainly I've steered clear of it because it's become this buzzword that has lost its meaning, unfortunately. And I didn't want to add fuel to the social fire regarding narcissism. But that being said, it is real. And I'm realizing that I need to talk about it more, and I will be doing that in future episodes. But I'm a bit wary because I don't want everyone diagnosing all of their family members and of course all of your exes with narcissism. I also do want to acknowledge though that narcissism is unfortunately growing in our society. We simply have more narcissists than we did 50 years ago, and we can all guess why that is. And as a result of it, it's very likely that You've come into contact with, or you are currently in some type of relationship with a narcissist. We also know that they gravitate more towards certain professions in certain geographic locations. You may not be surprised that there are more narcissists in Los Angeles than there are in maybe a Midwest small town America. Doctors, lawyers, celebrities, and entrepreneurs. Do have higher rates of narcissism than the general public. Please note, higher rates do not mean that they all have narcissism. I think that's an important distinction, and it's even more important to note that we all, yes, even me, every one of us have traits of narcissism, which is really just an ego state, and that can make this even more confusing. I can tell you that as a practitioner for 21 years, I have a spidey sense for a borderline personality disorder. I can spot them immediately, even when I'm out just hanging out with people, or especially obviously in my practice, but not so much a narcissist, especially a covert one, which I'm not going to go into the definition of that today. So if it takes me a while to diagnose a narcissist, I would expect it to be difficult for you as well. So what is not a narcissist? Well, I'm going to get there. It's hard to talk about what isn't without talking about what is, so I'm going to give a quick rundown of traits. Narcissistic personality disorder, also known as NPD, and I will use that interchangeably, is a mental disorder, psychological disorder, in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance and a deep need for admiration. Those people with NPD believe that they're superior to others and have little regard for other people's feelings. A narcissist at his or her core is afraid of being fully seen. And by the way, more men are narcissists than women. I think that has to do with our socialization, which I'll talk about a little bit later. So these seemingly arrogant, confident people possess a deep fear that if others truly knew me, I'd be rejected, judged, hurt, abandoned, and criticized. Now hold your horses before you say, oh my gosh, that's me, I must be a narcissist. You must understand that we are all afraid to some extent. We humans are afraid of being fully seen because we are all afraid of rejection on some level or another. So this fear of rejection is not a symptom of narcissism, it's the basis, the foundation of narcissism, and it needs to be extreme. It's called a narcissistic wound, very different than all the other people walking on the earth who have some kinds of you know some kind of insecurity and have some level of fear of rejection. So in the DSM-5-TR, which is the diagnostic manual that all practitioners use to diagnose psychological disorders, basically it's the psych Bible. You're required to have at least five of these nine traits to qualify for a diagnosis, and I'm sorry if this feels like a little too. Psychobabble, but I just, I want to be really clear about what this is so that I can also be clear about what it's not. So 5 of these 9 traits: 1, a grandiose sense of self-importance; 2, a fixation with fantasies of infinite success, control, brilliance, beauty, or idyllic love; 3, a credence or an understanding that he or she is extraordinary and exceptional and can only be understood by or should connect with other extraordinary or important People or institutions. 4, a desire for unwarranted admiration. Please note that's unwarranted admiration. 5, I think, a sense of entitlement. 6, interpersonally oppressive behavior. Basically, they're having problems in relationships. They're trying to control and oppress other people for their— really for their purpose. I think we're at, I don't know, 8? No form of empathy. And then 9, resentment of others or a conviction that others are resentful of him or her. The last one is 9, a display of egotistical and conceited behaviors or attitudes. So all of these, first you must have at least 5 of them, and all of them must interfere with healthy relationships with others or themselves. Now, a narcissist is not born this way. They are emotionally damaged into this personality disorder, and I know that can feel sad, and sometimes that's what keeps people in relationships with them. There has been some research and proof that a sociopath, which is totally different than a narcissist— we're not going to get really deep into that— but that they can be born a sociopath, although I would still argue that most are formed. The best example I can give of this is Stephen King. I happen to love his books. He's a horror author, in case you don't know, and he's— his books have been turned into movies. You should know who Stephen King is. That man's mind is twisted in the most brilliant way. And I often think, because I'm a therapist and I think about these kinds of things, what would Stephen King have become if he had experienced a childhood full of abuse and neglect? I did read his memoir, and he didn't have an easy childhood. He had some not-so-great things happen to him, as we all have, but I'm pretty convinced that if he had experienced significant damage in his childhood, his twisted mind would not have created stories in a socially accepted way like he does now. It would have acted them out in an antisocial type of way. So environment matters. Now, please note, as I talk about what a narcissist is not, I'm not saying this to invalidate your experience with someone in your life. I want to assure you, someone can be plenty difficult, even impossible to deal with. They can be toxic to your soul and still not be a narcissist. There are plenty of other diagnoses that are less understood by the general public, such as borderline personality disorder, which is extremely toxic to relationships. And I'm not saying that you're dealing with that either. But ultimately, when I'm speaking to someone, especially if they ask if I think someone is a narcissist, my answer is often, what does it matter their diagnosis? How are they treating you? That's what I want to know. How are they making you feel? Do you feel that they're healthy for you? I think what happens is we all want answers and we think that we will feel better if we can put a label on it. But I feel that you're barking up the wrong tree if that's what you're focusing your emotional energy on. If you are a narcissist, it's important for you to know so that you're getting the proper treatment. If you may be in relationship with a narcissist, honestly, their diagnosis is inconsequential to the issues at hand. There are bigger ones for you. And just in case you were thinking that you need to know so that you can let them know, I have never ever in the course of my 21 years as a therapist and in speaking with other therapists with a total of maybe a century of experience between us, I have never heard of an instance where someone. Was told that they were a narcissist, and that created a lightbulb moment for them where they went and got help and weren't a narcissist anymore, and they lived happily ever after. I know that sounds sarcastic, but listen, let's not bother with that. Educating someone about their narcissism doesn't work. So I know you might be thinking, well, what happens to create a narcissist? I know this might sound harsh, But it doesn't matter. Why am I saying this? That sounds so uncaring. Because I already anticipate that your mind is wanting to empathize with the narcissist, which keeps you in a stuck place. Narcissists tend to pair up very well with empathic, giving people because they need an endless supply, and you are often, at least in the beginning, happy to supply it. An endless supply of what? Attention, ego stroking, love, care. Did I mention attention and admiration? But they don't have the reciprocity muscle, which is one of the things that becomes so damaging in this one-sided relationship. So I'm asking you to stop investing the emotional energy and trying to understand and figure them out. You will not empathize with them out of narcissism. Okay, so we know the origin of narcissism is the narcissistic wound. Narcissists can be arrogant, self-centered, grandiose. They have a belief that they're special. They can love bomb you and tear you down in the next moment. The world revolves around them. They lack empathy. They expect to be taken care of without needing to reciprocate, etc., etc. There's so many nuances surrounding narcissists, including covert narcissism, which I'm not getting into today. But now that we know a little bit about who they are, What I want to talk about finally, finally, is what narcissism is not. One, narcissism is not just being self-absorbed. There are many times in a person's life when they might be self-absorbed. When you're going through a life transition, when you have a huge success, there are things in our life that happen to us that just make us go inward and we can be in that, you know, self-absorbed state. With true narcissism, there must be a frequent and intense long pattern of being self-absorbed—not just instances, but this is the way this person lives. Two narcissists don't have awareness. So if you confront someone on their selfishness, if you talk to them about incidences of being self-absorbed, lack of empathy, etc., and they're able to have some self-reflection, they're able to apologize and have a behavior change. They're not a narcissist. Number three, gaslighting is not narcissism. And I want to make this really clear because I see on social media people get this so confused. I hear these being used interchangeably as if someone who gaslights is a narcissist. Now, a narcissist could definitely use this abusive tactic. They do, but so can plenty of people who aren't narcissists. And while we're on this topic, let's just get clear about this. Number 4: All abusers are not narcissists. As I just said, gaslighting is abuse and abusers are unhealthy and toxic, but someone could be an abuser and not meet the diagnostic criteria for a psychological disorder. They may not have depression, anxiety, psychosis, or a personality disorder, and they can still I personally think the DSM should have a diagnosis of abusive personality disorder, but it doesn't. So it's simply a behavior resorted to by many people, including those with disorders and those without, but in and of itself, it is not narcissism. And this is where I get back to, what does it matter? Unhealthy is unhealthy. We don't have to have a label for it. Number five, narcissism is not ambition or confidence. I'm ambitious. I will admit that, and I'm confident most of the time. Healthy confidence is a result of feeling proud of mastery over something. There's a contentment in healthy confidence, and I'm noticing that I'm developing a very different type of secure confidence that I did not possess when I was in my twenties. Possibly my 30s or early 30s, nor should I have. I have been working in this field for 20— I think I said 21 earlier. It's longer than that. 26? I don't know. A lot of years. And I know some things. I am secure in my knowledge and very clear about the places in which I am ignorant, which before might have felt more like imposter syndrome, but now it feels like health. Although I will admit I might seem arrogant at times, and I have to check how I come across, I know that it comes from a deep sense of contentment and healthy pride in my knowledge and work, honestly, and not from a place of fear of lack, of not being good enough. My confidence and my ambition is not narcissism. It is not grandiose, and it's not baseless. I truly have a desire to share what I have learned and glean the wisdom that I have gleaned over the years because I have come through some hard things and I know that there are women that I can help. That's where my confidence comes from. Number 6, narcissism is not traits. So like I said before, you can have 2 or 3 or even 4 of the 9 traits that I just mentioned and not be a narcissist. However, if you have 4 and not 5, you are leaning heavily towards narcissism, maybe not quite meeting the threshold for a diagnosis, but you are definitely leaning heavily in that way, and you want to get some help for that. But otherwise, as psychiatrist Michael Furst and another scholar Jerome Wakefield put it, virtually every psychiatric symptom characteristic of a DSM disorder can occur under some circumstance in a normally functioning person. I think that's a profound statement. Nearly every single psychiatric disorder. Some of those symptoms, many of those symptoms will occur in a normal functioning person. Remember, you have to have at least five of the traits I mentioned, and they must interfere with your relationship functioning. Number seven, and this is the last: kids can't be narcissists. I hope you're hearing that, especially for people who I've heard blame their. Kids in their adolescence for narcissism. Self-centeredness is the main characteristic in 2 developmental stages in childhood. One is after the symbiosis period of infancy— that's during toddlerhood. The world absolutely revolves around them, as it should. They are first figuring out that they are different and separate from mom, and they are establishing their independence, and it is a tough time. And there is a, you know, a huge learning curve regarding their own identity that needs to happen. The next is adolescence, which I always say adolescence is just a second toddlerhood in a bigger body. And although technically a personality disorder can be diagnosed after age 15, I would never personally diagnose a teenager with NPD because NPD Symptoms are difficult to distinguish from adolescent thought patterns. They're basically the same thing. Adolescents can be grandiose, they can be self-centered, they can be rude, they can lack empathy, and that's all a part, a healthy part, of establishing an identity. Sometimes we've got to swing that pendulum way back before we can bring it back to a healthy center, which happens over time with brain development and maturity. It's not narcissism. I would also never diagnose someone in early grief with depression because they look exactly the same. You have to wait to see what unfolds after a normal process. So if you're thinking that your child or your adolescent is a narcissist, they probably aren't. Continue to model empathic behaviors, don't reinforce the self-centered thinking, and they're going to likely mature out of it. It will probably take longer than you'd like. Sorry for that information. So there you go. But if you're listening to all this and you're thinking, oh, I still think someone I do know or I'm in a relationship with is a narcissist, pay attention to how they make you feel. Pay attention to whether the relationship is healthy. If not, then you need to take action. So there you go. I hope this list of what narcissism is not can help you as you think about those in your life who you may be experiencing difficulty with. Once again, if the relationship isn't healthy, that's what matters, not the label. If the relationship isn't healthy, you need to take action, not diagnose the person. Reach out if you need some help. You've got this. Thank you for listening to Stronger in the Difficult Places. New episodes go out Tuesdays. Please subscribe to my email list so that you can get encouragement from me and notification when new episodes go out, and have a strong week.