When Mother’s Day Isn’t So Happy- Navigating a Difficult Relationship With Your Mother

Darlene, I am so thrilled to have you on today, and thank you for adjusting. I've had to cancel on you. My schedule has not been very nice to me, so I'm so glad you were able to make it today.

Oh, Zoe, I am so thrilled to be here. And honestly, listening to, well, I'm on this, this college trip, I am doing this, I'm recording this— I remember those days. I remember Thinking I have 4 hours of sleep tonight, and then I got to get up and do it all over again. So no problem at all.

Thank you. And then to being in 2 places at one time, I had my daughter's track meet. And then I had my son's play, and they're like a couple of hours away from each other. So that was fun. But yes, thank you. Thank you. So I wanted you on the podcast today because I respect, of course, what you're doing with Grit and Grace. I hope all of my listeners are over at Grit and Grace reading and listening to their podcast. And I've heard you speak briefly a couple of times, a little bit in your book, on a podcast maybe, about your relationship with your mother. And yes, you have an immense amount of wisdom. And I wanted to impart that with my audience today, especially for those who's— who have the experience of Mother's Day not being such a happy day.

Oh, for sure. And there were years, Zoe, where Mother's Day would come and I would go look for the card. You know, the Mother's Day card. And I would go, I can't say that because I don't mean it. I can't say that because that's not our relationship. So, you know, it would be a process because it was a difficult one.

I saw, I don't know if it was a meme or something of someone trying to do the same thing. Like it listed off all, you know, best mom in the world. You were my best friend. And I was like, I can't do that one. Can't do that one. Yes. So that's why I wanted to have you on the podcast today, but first, Can you please share with my audience your win and your fail?

I certainly can. And I always like to start with fail because I want to end on a high note. So I'm going to start there. Yeah. Um, this last week I have had sleep deprivation. You know, you get so much on your mind, you don't get a lot. You wake up in the middle of the night. And I realized for about 2 days straight, I was not completing anything and doing everything wrong and finally just had to quit. To start over. So it was like I failed completely 2 days and I had to just chuck them, say they weren't worth anything. I'm moving

on. Unfortunately, I, I, I can relate. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. I would say my win, um, our eldest daughter, we are fortunate to have her and her little son staying with us right now because of the jobs she's chosen. She has long breaks. He is homeschooling. He is 7 years old.

Wow.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah. And the interesting part is he is in writing sentences. So she asked me to intervene so I could explain to him that poop and pee and butt are not proficient writing words. Yes, they are real words. And yes, they could be used in a sentence. But if you want to be a good writer, you need to expand your vocabulary. And he actually took it from me, a 7-year-old boy. So I felt like that was a huge win.

That's huge. Between 7 and like 10, those are their favorite words.

They are for sure. Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you for sharing those ones. I can relate. My boys are old now, but I miss those burpy, jokey— yeah, all those, that period when they were just kind of silly and a little disgusting.

Absolutely. Yes.

Okay. So, you know, I have also had a similar— well, no, I wouldn't say a similar experience with Mother's Day. Because I did have a really great mom. And although we have our issues, as all moms, mom and daughters do— I won't even say issues. I've, I've learned, I've had to learn how to separate myself from my mother because she was kind of such a perfect mother. And I couldn't quite live up to that. But having placed my daughter for adoption, the years after that experience were made Mother's Day really hard for me, especially because her birthday is right around that same time. And so I've had that experience. And I've, I feel like I can say I've recovered from the Mother's Day pain, I should say. But I definitely have had that with my own experience with Mother's Day. So I can relate to women who struggle when that day comes up. And it's like, oh, all the things that mothering means for you and your relationship with your mother, for yourself as a mother. Um, it can sometimes be a little painful. So can you share with my audience, um, just a little bit about your relationship with your mother and how the early days, how, how it came to be?

Sure, I can. Uh, my mom was a complicated woman. I learned that probably later in life. As a child growing up, I just saw it in black and white. I just saw it in how she acted, what she said, and what she did. And when I was little, Dr. Zoe, she, she really was very engaged. She taught me how to sew. She would do projects with me. She was hard on my father. She would say biting things, but I didn't really see it until I turned about 12.

Were you an only child?

No, I have 2 brothers, an older brother and a younger brother who's 14 years younger than me. So my— it was pretty much my older brother and I growing up. And, you know, my older brother Bob was— he, he just was the good, good kid, if that makes sense. He was the one that just didn't create waves. And, you know, for me, I was the one who pushed back. I was that person.

Hmm.

So when I turned 12, 13, it was as if I became competition to her. It was as if I became someone she had to put in their place to retain her position, if that makes sense.

It completely, completely makes sense. Yeah.

Yeah. And I didn't even know what that meant then. I only knew that I could do nothing right. And that she would just say pretty cutting things to me. And, you know, she— I grew up in a home that we went to church, and I knew the Bible. And of course, the one Bible verse she always used when I exited the door in my teenage years was, be sure your sin will find you out. And of course, when I left, I went, well, then I better make it count. Because if it's gonna find me out, it better be a good one.

Wow. Yes, absolutely. Did you— just out of curiosity, did you resemble her?

In what way? Physically? Emotionally?

Yes. Did you look like her?

No, I didn't think so then. The older I get, the more I think I do. Which, you know, that's, that's a whole nother dynamic, Zoe, where you go, I don't want to be my mother, but I look like her. And in some ways, I, I do have a lot of her traits. She was a tenacious woman.

Mm-hmm.

She was a woman who worked hard. She was a woman who was very creative. She was all of that. So I do possess some of her strengths, but I was determined I was not going to possess some of her weaknesses.

Right. I asked just because I was curious about what may have started that whole process for her when you were around 12, 13, and if there were things about you that reminded her of her and she might have had some issues with herself. Just curious. Yeah.

Well, I think she did, but you know what was funny or not funny, but I just noticed through the years is when my nieces turned that age, she turned on them. When my daughters turned that age, she turned on them. So it was— there was something in her that at that point, uh, the female in the family became challenging to her.

Yeah. Did she have many friends, female friends?

No, she— short-term. She was one of those that would make a friend, they would be best friends until they weren't, because she would say very negative things about their family, or, you know, she just was a generally negative person. Is what it was.

Okay.

Yeah. So my teenage years were pretty rough. Uh, at one point, my— I wrote a letter to a friend that had not been mailed that I left in my room that she found. And it was, the day I graduate from high school, I'm leaving this house. I cannot stand this woman, and I can't wait to leave. So I got home from being out probably later than I was supposed to be, and my father was sitting at the dining room table and said, We found this note. You need to go talk to your mom. So I went upstairs and she was in bed crying. And I said, Mom, here's the deal. I love you because you're my mom, but I don't like you. And I don't think I ever will. Now, I think—

That's a huge statement for a teenager to be able to make.

Well, it was. And then I look back, Zoe, and think, if my daughters ever said that to me, I, I don't know what I would do or how I would feel. And I know I hurt her at that point, but it was really how I felt. And I was never one to shy away from how I felt. So, you know, it was kind of the dart through her heart. And at the same time, it was my teenage proclamation.

Yeah.

So, you know, for me, it was constantly tenuous.

Okay. And so did you move out right after?

I did. 2 weeks after I got out of high school, I left home. Um, I packed up everything that I could get, and my older brother had a house that had an extra bedroom in a city that was about 45 minutes away. And I basically asked him if I could move in with him for a little bit till I figured out what I was doing. And, you know, he was my rescuer. He was the one that when I would bring home the boys that were probably not the boys I should be dating, he would go to my parents and say, she'll be all right, don't worry about it, she'll be all right. I probably wasn't, but he was at least, you know, the one who tried to help. So I think for my mom and dad, I was 18, almost 19 at the time, so they couldn't really tell me I couldn't move.

Right.

But I think they thought If I'm going to live in Bob's house, it would be okay. Which I did for about 3 months. And Zoe, I, I had a scholarship at that point to go to college, but I was so confused. I didn't know who I wanted to be or what I wanted to do. So I just got an apartment in the art district in the city I was in and hung out with people like me and got jobs just to find my way.

So a lot of women who might have tumultuous relationships with their moms growing up, over the course, like once they move out, they still try to reach in. They still try to fix or, or repair that relationship some way. This kind of hope that maybe we can fix it now that we're both adults. Did you have that experience?

Oh yeah, certainly did. And you know, I kind of forged my own path For the next— oh, I guess it would have been 7 years or so until my marriage. And I tried, I would go home on holidays, I would reach out to her. But it always ended in hurt, some kind of hurt where she would say something that hurt me, or I would try to intervene in the way she spoke to my father. I sat him down and said, you should not put up with that. He would say to me, it's not your concern, you know, and I was always trying to intervene. intervene and fix it. My older brother got married in that season, and my poor sister-in-law could do no right. So whenever the family gatherings happened, it would be— I would do nothing but talk. I would be blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, because if there was silence in the room, somebody would say something to somebody else that did not go well.

Wow.

So I realized at the end of it, I just went home exhausted. And so I'm like, do I really want to continue this or not? It was hard.

And so at some point you did make that decision.

I did.

Can you tell us about that?

I can. It was, it was really tough, Zoe. Um, this again, this went on for a long time. I would say probably 10 years of trying to make it work, going home, avoiding her, back and forth, probably 10 years. And I was married I had our first child, Lauren. She was, I think, 18 months old at the time, maybe 2. And my husband, who— my husband is a guy who is who he is, who he is, who he is. No, you know, he just is, you know, you take it or you don't. I adore him. He doesn't change. But my mom had the hardest time with him, just had a horrible time with him. So we had Christmas with her, with my, my little girl and him. We went to her home and had Christmas. And on the way back, I said to Dan, I can't do this anymore. I cannot live where my mom, anytime we're with her, she's badmouthing you. She's badmouthing my mothering. She's badmouthing my in-laws. She's, um, just bringing me down. And I can't, I can't keep going like this. I just can't keep putting myself in this place.

So toxic.

Yeah, she was very So I get back to my in-laws. And from there, I call her and say, Mom, I love you. But here's the deal. I am not going to be in your life until you can treat my family differently. It's not going to happen. Now, Zoe, I know you've done podcasts on boundaries. You have talked about it. You have spoken to it well. But in those years, we really— there wasn't that word. Yeah. Nobody really knew that you should create boundaries. I just knew what was, I couldn't keep doing, and I had to change it. And, you know, to say it was a little bit tumultuous when that happened would be an understatement.

I can imagine there were some explosions.

Yes, from her. And then family who I love dearly, who she called and called me and said, you can't do this to your mom. And, you know, you know, she's crying, she's upset. And I said, I'm sorry, I'm I don't want to do anything to her, but I have to do something for me. And I have to do this. So I did. I did not talk to her. I did not engage her in my life. And honestly, Zoe, it was like, big, big sigh, big sigh. Yeah. I did not have that negative input in my life. And I had a bit of peace that I hadn't had before. And it's not that I was always upset. It wasn't anything like that. It was whenever I knew I needed to call her, I would gear up and be emotionally nervous whenever she called me. I would, you know, it would strain me. My husband would say, you turned into this different person when you talked to your mom. And so it was like that. It was, it was not always that I had the problem, but when I engaged with her, I did.

So I want to stop right there because there are so many women out there who are listening and who may be in the situation where they've already cut off or they're considering. And I know that that fear of the backlash. And you were describing perfectly the system that exists in families and, you know, relationships where there's this idea of who you're supposed to be. And everybody has a role. You talked about your brother's role. You talked about your role in the family. And when we make any changes in a system, that system fights hard to pull us back into equilibrium. And your system, your nuclear family and extended, they weren't seeing you For you and what you needed. They were just thinking about the system and, oh, she's upset the system, we need to bring her back. And that pressure is so— it's just huge. That pressure is really scary. And I hear so many women talking about, but what will they say? What will they think of me? Am I a horrible person for doing this to my mom? And what they're not thinking about is themselves, right? Because the system isn't either, and we're socialized not to think about ourselves.

For sure, Zoe, you are, you are absolutely nailing it. And I can't say it was an easy thing. It was frightening, right? It was terrifying to think that I was going to be the one that upset the entire family dynamic. Um, yet I knew for me, I couldn't keep living my life this way. I could not exist with her or in the context of my extended family in the way it always been. It was harming my family. It was harming my husband. It was harming— potentially, I looked at my little girl and went, I don't want you growing up in this.

Hmm.

I don't want you growing up where your mom and her mom can't function together, can't live healthy or as healthy as it could ever become. And I knew for me, I had to do it. And yes, you're absolutely right. There were people who did not understand People honestly that I love, people who treasure me, but they didn't understand and they only saw it from that view. So I can't say it's easy for anybody who's walking that road and once needs to make that decision. It's not going to be easy, but I can tell them this: if you do and you stick with what you know is healthy, you really can live in a different world. Thank

you for sharing that. I want to talk about that different world. But first, I want to go back to— there was something you were saying about your brother. Oh, so this concept that I like to talk about when I'm talking to, to people and families is that no 2 children have the same parent. And that can make this harder too, because number one, you were talking about your external family, that they didn't get it right. They didn't know what to do. live in your home. They weren't in all of the dynamic every moment of your life, understanding what was going on between you and your mom. They just saw some things on the outside. And the same is true for your siblings. Sometimes they come about in our parents' lives at different times. And you had a 14 gap and even just a year or two gap and a gender difference and a personality and temperament difference can make Different, you know, siblings have different parental experiences. And so even though your siblings might not need to separate, even though your siblings might have a very different relationship with your parent, that doesn't mean that yours, the one that you have and the experience that you had, isn't valid.

Oh, it's so true. My older brother, again, he's a treasure. And he was the A student that I said I wasn't related to because I didn't want the pressure. But he would— he never saw it, at least from my view. He never saw it. He would sit when we were traveling as a family, he would sit in the backseat with me. And he would be reading a book while my mom was quipping at my father, and I would be back there wanting to yell. And my older brother would say, I don't know what you're talking about. He didn't hear the same thing I heard. He didn't see it in the same way I did. And I'm not saying his view was wrong and mine was right. I think it was more who we are and were, and how we coped with things a little bit. And he just, he just didn't visualize our family dynamic in the same way I did, honestly, until later in life. And then it was a little challenging for him.

Interesting. Well, I want to go there, but we'll get there. We'll get there in a minute. So tell me about that. First of all, how long has it been since you've communicated with your mom?

Oh, well, when I cut her off, that was right after Christmas. I actually called her Mother's Day because I thought I can't not call her on Mother's Day. Okay. And her— she was actually very contrite. She didn't apologize. She didn't do anything. She just was very careful in her words. And I think part of that was because I'd spent 5 months not talking to her.

Mm-hmm.

And would not— wouldn't do it. So at that point, I thought, all right, I need to find a way to re-enter this relationship in a way that I could deal with it. Okay? Because I felt at that time I had— for me, and with that kind of, um, distance and time, I felt like, all right, I want to see if I can have some kind of a relationship with her But on my terms, on my terms. So it wasn't like we just picked up. It was like we had that call. And then probably 3 weeks later, I reached out to her again. And she was honestly, Zoe, she was really on her absolute best behavior for about 4 months. Okay. Yeah. Just absolutely, you could tell she was trying so hard. And then about the 5th or 6th month, I called her and her first thing out of her mouth was, well, I hadn't heard from you, so I thought you were dead. Okay, so I'm like, we're back. All right, we're back.

Yeah.

And I, I mean, it was honestly, it was probably a year from when I stopped talking to her to where I was having to deal with the negative part of her again, or near a year. And I decided I was healthy enough at that point for me that it was not going to impact me in the same way. Her words were not going to cut me because I knew me. I knew who I was and how I was going to conduct my life. So when she would say things like that, when I would pick up the phone and call her and she'd say, I think you were dead, my response would be, well, here's the deal, Mom. My husband has a list of people he's going to call when I die. If you don't get a phone call, you're going to know I'm still living and breathing and probably really busy. All right. So how's your day? So I, I would do my best to just get out of that road that she wanted to travel. And I'm not saying it was perfect, because there were seasons where I was in and out of her life, and there was limits of information I would give her. Um, but I decided I was going to reestablish a relationship with her to the best of my ability and do it on, on my terms. And that's what I did.

And so how long did that last? And what— well, you know, a question I really wanted to ask is if you expected, had any expectations of her as a grandmother once you had children?

Oh, I actually was terrified of that, um, because I thought I did not want her to pull— I had 2 daughters, and I knew the dynamic. I'd seen it repeated, and I did not want her to hurt the self-esteem of a tender 12 or 13-year-old girl. And that's how she handled it. So I was pretty cautious. Now, when they were little, again, she was great with them. She was— there was no negativity to them. We would go, and if we saw her at Easter, she would help them decorate Easter eggs, and the creative side of her would come out. And she would do all of those kind of things. And if you kept her in that arena— and that's kind of what I learned to do, is keep my mom in the positive arena where she can function as positive as she is capable of, not allow the time or opportunity to get the negative. Okay, so I would limit my time with her. I would limit my daughter's time with her. I would protect them from what she said. But at the same time, I wanted the— I wanted them to have a relationship with her because they needed to know their other grandmother.

Mm-hmm.

My husband's mom was a treasure. In fact, Zoe, when we got married, um, there, there were the first 2 years I kept waiting for the shoe to drop. I kept waiting for her to say something to me that would hurt, or her to say something to me that made me think she didn't believe in me. And finally, I looked at her and went, Alina, you are you, and you like me, right? Yes, darling. I don't know why you would think any differently. So, you know, I knew that relationship with my daughters would be healthy, but I wanted them to have some kind of relationship with my mom. Because really, that's part of their heritage. That was part of the world they came from. And I wanted them to know it without hurting them.

Mm-hmm. So, Darlene, you wrote a book called Raising Great Girls. And I've, I've actually witnessed your girls, or at least Lauren, rise up and call you blessed in the metaphoric sense. And I guess the way that your children— and I've heard your girls on interviews too— speak about you is Simply beautiful. It's mom goals for me and my kids. And so how did you, after having experience of being mothered the way that you did, in a little nutshell, were you intentional about being a very different mother? Did you feel like you swung the pendulum? How did you navigate that, knowing you didn't want that kind of— to be that kind of mother?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's funny, because when I wrote that book, Zoe, I gave my mom a copy of the manuscript. I wanted her to know what was going to go out there. She read it. And she called me and said, well, I didn't know you had it in you. And I said, well, actually, I didn't either. But what I realized, and I— that was not the only time, is that my mom didn't know me. My mother did not know me. So I determined when my girls were born, I was going to do it differently. I was going to know my children. I was going to listen to them. I was going to see them. I was going to understand who they were and respond to them in the way that they needed.

Mm-hmm.

To love them in the way that they needed, to stand by them no matter what, and to tell them I was proud of them. To tell them they were smart and talented, even when they were just little buggers. You know, I, I wanted them to know I always saw the good in them. That did not mean they were always good or made right decisions, but I wanted them to know that how I saw them was different than my mom saw me.

You know, that's a phenomenal story because I know that a number of women feel sometimes when they haven't been mothered well that their mothering bone has been broken. Um, and there's a lot of second-guessing, and there's a lot of feeling like, well, I, I don't know how to do this because I wasn't taught. So I'm glad that you shared that so that women out there can know that it's possible. Even if you haven't had a good relationship with your mother, even if you've had really bad mothering, you can still be a great mom. And I hope everyone goes out and, and reads your book.

Oh, thanks. You know what I think is You need to remember what you needed and what you wanted from a mom and be that mom. Be that mom.

So is your mother still alive today?

She's not. She died a few years ago. And here's the ironic part is toward the end of her life, I was the primary caregiver making sure she was cared for. I was the one who helped who hired the women who took care of her as long as they would stand it and then leave and they'd have to hire somebody else. But at the very end of her life when she was in the hospital, we lived away from her, but I would go and take care of her when she needed it and make arrangements. But when she was in the hospital, the last part of her life, and we had to make some healthcare decisions, I flew up, my husband and I flew up to be with her and to make these decisions. I got to the hospital and I was surprised surprised that she had made me her healthcare surrogate, her healthcare advocate. It shocked me because, you know, my older brother was the smart one, and he really is, you know. But I left the room to go take care of— talk to some doctors and make some— gain some understanding of where she was. And my husband stayed in the room with her. And I got back, and they had had a conversation I wasn't aware of. And when we left, He said, do you know what your mom said to me? And I said, no. And I said, I'm like, was it okay? You know, he said, no, she said you are smart and she is proud of you.

Hmm.

And I went, dang, she never said that to me, but I'll, I'll take it. I'll take it. And so I had the privilege, and I can say that truly, I had the privilege of caring for her toward the end of her life to the best of my ability. You know, it wasn't easy. You know, she created her own challenges. But when she passed, I could say I did the best I could do. And that's valuable. That's valuable.

That's hugely valuable. So you guys never had that conversation? You just heard it through your husband?

Yeah, no. And no, we didn't. And I You know what, Zoe, I didn't need it. Because at the— in, you know, at that point, I knew who I was. Whether she knew it or not, I knew who I was. I knew I had strengths. I also knew my weaknesses. But I was comfortable with me, and I didn't need my mom to tell me my value. And I know that's really hard. And in reality, I wish she would have said that to me. I do. While she was alive, I wish she would have said that to me, because it would have meant a lot. But she didn't. And I didn't have to have it, because I simply had to do the best that I could do in my relationship with her.

Right. I want, I want women out there listening to hear that, that as much as you needed it as a child, And as much as you would have liked it before she passed, you didn't need it because you did know who you are. And I think that if women can get to that place of recognizing that as an adult, it's, it's now your job to care for yourself, to believe in yourself, to support yourself. And yeah, it's nice. And it— and you deserved it. You deserved it as a child, and you didn't get it. Um, but sometimes we spend a lot of time still pining for it, feeling like we need to have that in order to feel fulfilled. And you don't. True.

Yeah, true.

So how do you experience Mother's Day today? I have a close friend who just lost her mother about 4 days ago. And I'm feeling for her right now, um, as you know, this day is coming up. And I'm just wondering, with your experience of Mother's Day, have you had any kind of, of, of journey through that? Or, I mean, you're, you're a great mom, so you've had, you know, girls that honor you on Mother's Day, but I'm just curious how Mother's Day feels for you.

You know what's funny is I thought After she passed, I would have— and I did— a great relief. I did. It was, it was, I'm not caring for her. I don't hear the negativity. Big load off my shoulders. I had a huge relief. But the first Mother's Day she was gone, I caught myself weeping. And I thought, why am I crying for a mom who was who she was? But that she was my mom. She was my mom. And so it was— it can still be bittersweet. I'm happy of whatever fragmented relationship I held with her, and I'm sad that we didn't have what we had. But I have come to where I'm living in now, and you're right, with my daughters, I have a great relationship. Mother's Day is precious to us. I have the privilege with my 7-year-old grandson for the last 3 years we have randomly been together around Mother's Day, so I take him out to buy the weirdest stuff for his mom. And those are, those are the replacement treasures for the Mother's Day I didn't have growing up.

That's beautiful. So, Darlene, thank you so much for sharing your story. I know that it's going to help and, and provide some wisdom for women who might not be having the best Mother's Day. Do you have any last advice for women, um, for that woman maybe who's clear that her relationship with her mother is toxic, um, that can go, oh yeah, yeah, me too, as she's listening to your story, but hasn't really taken any steps to put in those boundaries, hasn't really done the things and is wondering, how can I still be healthy and And maintain some type of relationship with my mom?

Yeah, for sure. I do think the first thing you have to do is set the boundaries. You have to do that, as difficult as it is, and as much as people don't understand. For your emotional health and potential of any kind of relationship, you have got to set the boundaries. And I think the next thing I had to do that's really hard is I had to accept who she was.

Yes.

I wasn't going to change her. I wasn't going to— I mean, she'd been this way for a very long time. So to think that I could make a positive woman out of a negative one was pretty unrealistic. So I think you kind of have to accept this is what you got. This is the mom you have. And then you decide, who am I going to be? How am I going to handle this mother if indeed I find that I can have a relationship with her after setting the boundaries? And I I do know that sometimes you can't, sometimes you cannot find a way to have that healthy relationship or a semi-healthy relationship. But if you can, I think you decide who you're going to be, how you're going to conduct yourself. And, you know, the, the, one of the things in the Bible that it says is honor your father and mother. It doesn't say honor your father and mother if they're nice people or if they treat you right, or if they're gracious. It doesn't say that, you know?

Right.

And that's the tenets of my life come from that source. So I knew I had to treat her in a way that I would honor her without letting her hurt me. So I think you decide, how am I going to live? How am I going to conduct myself? So when, as for me, when my mom passed away, I could honestly say I did the best I could do. And I'm glad I did. Yeah.

And those boundaries, sometimes we're so scared to set them. I just want to point out that even though you set those firm boundaries with your mom, she didn't disappear. She didn't— maybe she verbally rejected you as she had your whole life, but she didn't do the things that sometimes we fear. So thank you so much, Darlene, for sharing that. Thanks for coming on the show.

Appreciate it, Zoe.

And happy Mother's Day.

And happy Mother's Day to you, and you're a great mom, by the way.

Oh, thank you, thank you.