When Your Adult Child Rejects Your Faith with Pamela Henkleman

Hey there, it's Dr. Zoe. Welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. Today I have a guest. Her name is Pamela Henkelman, and we're talking today about what to do if your child has walked away from the faith. I'm very excited to have this conversation. Pamela is a writer. She's a podcaster of the Midlife Mama podcast. If you are a midlife mama, if you have an adult child or almost adult child, you need to check out her podcast. And she's a coach. She helps Christian moms navigate their changing roles with adult children. This is going to be a great conversation. If you're a mom who finds yourself in this really difficult place, there's hope. Listen in. Pamela, I am so thrilled to have you on today.

I am happy to be here.

Good. Yay. So I've already done a little introduction. And so before we get started, we're going to talk about a tough topic today. When your child has walked away from your faith, that's hard. But before we get started, can you share with your, with my audience, A win and a fail?

Sure. Well, this week, this week, for a couple of weeks, I've been working on a new project for my moms and I'm so excited. It's a little blueprint per se, and it's called 3 Trippic Topics, 3 Tricky Topics with Prompts for Honest Conversations with Your Adult Children. Because what I'm discovering is there are so many tough topics out there right now and moms feel like they're just walking into this. They don't know what they're going to enter when they have these conversations and they want to do it with grace and they don't really know how. And so I just kind of want to give them some prompts and say, try this. If this— if they say this, then you try this.

Oh, I love putting the words in your mouth. You know, I have a lot of friends. We're all in this space right now. And we talk about having those conversations with our kids and just like trying to be quiet, scream in our head, freak out in our head. Don't show it on our face. It's hard to say. Yeah.

So I love that. Yes.

I love it. Thank you. Um, and you know, for my listeners out there, not everybody is going to be in this phase, but if you are a mom, you will eventually be in this phase. And so I hope that you can still get something from this and just kind of tuck it in the back of your head for when, when that time period comes.

Exactly. I have a lot of moms of teenagers who say, I am listening, because we know it's coming up. You're like you say, we're all gonna get to this point where our kids reach adulthood. And the thing is, the world is just quiet about it.

They are.

No one's talking about it. No one's helping us. And so when I went through it with my 5 kids, I'm like, Lord, thank you for the things that you've shown me, because I've messed it up so many times. But finally, I think I might be doing better than I used to. And I just I just want to help moms feel supported. And so that's kind of the whole reason behind what I do.

That's great. Okay, so 5 kids.

Yeah.

What are their ages?

They— the oldest is 33. He's married and they have our only 2 grandchildren.

I saw your beautiful photo on your website. So beautiful, your family. Oh, love it. Love it.

We're all very tall. Our kids range from From 5'10 to 6'5. So we're just a family of giraffes.

So you can spot everybody in the crowd when you guys go.

Exactly. Then comes Mariah, she's 30. Then, then comes Caleb, married to Asha, and Caleb is 28. Then comes Rebecca, who's married to Ryan, and she's 24. And then the baby is Keziah, and she's 21.

Oh my goodness. Wow. So you have a wealth of experience, which is why I want you on here today. So thank you. Thank you. Um, can you share your fail with us?

Yes. Here's what I'm learning is that I strive a little too much. We were

singing a song about that.

We were singing a song at church the other night and it, the chorus was no more striving, just abiding. And honestly, That's my heart, and I don't do it very well. And so I'm just asking God to show me what that looks like. I have kind of been on a journey of understanding rest because being a pastor's wife and a mom of 5 kids, I have gone full speed ahead my whole life. I've just— let's just get it done. I'm very efficient. I have a plan, and we're going to work the plan, and we're going to get it all done. But I think about 10 years ago, I was just like, I'm just real tired.

I'm

just real tired. And so I started studying rest and my husband and I started Sabbath. So I feel like this abiding is all a part of that. And so I'm still failing, but my heart is to strive less and abide more. So that's what I'm practicing.

I love that. Have you read Sandra Dalton's book?

I haven't. What's it called?

I don't remember. I had her on my podcast years ago. Sandra Dalton Smith, I think it's. Might be called Sacred Rest. Um, yeah, Sandra Dalton Smith. I believe it's called Sacred Rest. But for some reason, I'm feeling like it's not. But she wrote an entire book about rest. Her— she talks so much about the importance of rest. It's beautiful. So look her up.

Yeah.

And, and yes, you listener out there, look her up too. I'm actually— she's actually in my feed somewhere. And somebody else wrote a book called Try a Little Softer, which I have not read.

But the name alone,

right? Right. And for people like you and me, um, and probably plenty of my listeners out there, I think we can all relate to that, that striving. You know, I love how you said that you're a pastor's wife who doesn't play the piano. Is that like an oxymoron?

I know, I know. You know, here's the deal. I love— my husband and I have served churches for 22 years and I love it, but it is not my identity. You know, a lot of people don't even know that I'm a pastor's wife. I really don't— I don't mention it in my online space at all, aside from that little blurb on my blog, because it's one role that I have and I love it, but it's not the sum total of who I am. I'm a daughter of the King. I'm a child of God. That's my role.

Yes. I love that. Okay. So before we dive in, I have to, I have to, for my own personal reasons, ask you one more question. There was something that you put on your website and you said the bravest thing that you've done recently is to let your hair go gray. And okay, I'm, I'm— it's funny because my husband asked me just a couple of weeks ago, he's like, because we found one or two strands and he said, yeah, I have a, I have a couple. And he's like, so are you gonna let your hair like go gray? And I'm like, I don't know, I haven't thought about it. Um, but if I could look like Pamela, for sure. So just tell me a little bit about your, your journey with that.

Well, I, my whole adult life, I thought, I cannot wait to go gray. I think this is gonna be fabulous. But so I started coloring my hair, coloring my gray when I was about 35. And I was like, but I can't wait. One day I'm gonna do it. And so my best friend is my hairdresser. And every few years I'd be like, so do you think it's time? And she's like, no, no, no, it's not time.

That's not in her best interest.

Yeah. I think I was, Gosh, I think I was 51 when I finally said, it is time.

Wow.

And, you know, when you first start out, everyone's just looking at you like, girl, your roots are showing. Why don't you do something about it? And I was just like, no, I just know that I'm gonna love this. And so, the first 6 months are the worst because you have the old brassy color next to the new gray.

Right.

And it's just weird and wonky. But if you stay the course— so, I grew it out for a year, then I chopped it to a chin length. And I was done. And my only regret is that I didn't do it sooner because I love it.

I love that. And it's beautiful. That's the first thing I noticed about you when we met at Hope Writers. It's like, oh my gosh, look at her beautiful hair. So thank you.

And then we wear pink glasses because you gotta have a pop of color.

You gotta accent it. Okay, so that, that was, um, that was a selfish question, but thank you very much.

Thank you.

So let's get into this. Oh, you know, it makes my heart feel heavy because I know that, you know, there are women, moms, parents out there that are struggling. You've, you've raised your child, you've done the best you can, you've tried to instill your faith in them, and then in their adulthood they walk away from it.

Yeah.

Can you tell me how— well, have you had any experience with this?

I have. I have.

I actually have.

Yeah. You know, I have a couple of kids who are still wrestling with their faith. And I remember I was such a diligent mom who prayed for her children to always walk with God. Like, I thought if my children walked away from God, that would probably be the worst thing that could happen as a mom. And so moms just feel this immense amount of shame. shame, like, what did I do? I caused this. It's my fault. And I remember so clearly when I first noticed signs and I could tell that a child was pulling away from God, and I so clearly heard the Holy Spirit say, I'm gonna need you to love them through this. And I was like, okay, okay, okay, I can do that. I can do that because I do love my child. I will love this child no matter what choice they make. If they deny you, God, if they walk away from you, God, I will show them your love. I will be love. And that's kind of what has sustained me. And it's been a long time for a couple of my kids. They're still— I'm still waiting on them. But what I never wanted to do was lose our relationship. Mm-hmm. Because family was everything to me. I— both my husband and I grew up in very dysfunctional families. My father was an alcoholic and he had mental illness in his family, and so just major dysfunction. And so when we got married almost 35 years ago, we purposed to do family different, that we would put God first, that we would raise our kids to know God, and we would love our kids and we would make it safe. And so I think that's what has kept us is our love for them. And because it's God, it's what God commands us to do, right? We don't get to choose.

Well, God loves us through that, right? That's what He does for us.

Exactly, exactly.

What would you say are the first signs? You said when you started to first see the signs that—

Yeah, you know, kind of an attitude. It always starts with attitude. It starts with And probably, I know that being pastors' kids is a whole nother level of difficult.

Right.

I've never been, I've never been a pastor's kid, so I don't know what that's like. But we've had candid, wonderful conversations, and our kids always said, it wasn't you, it wasn't mom and dad, it wasn't you, but the church hurt us. People in the church hurt us, or the church hurt us. And that just grieves Grieved me for so long. So you see them pulling away, you see the choices that they make. You know, we had boundaries with our kids and, um, they were respectful of them for the most part. But, you know, you, you know, a mom knows it's your child, you know.

Mm-hmm. What would you say are the things that most parents get wrong? Like, what do they do wrong when their kids start to stray or have strayed or just tell them, I don't believe in God anymore?

They come down hard on them. They cause a wedge in the relationship. They think, well, I can't have anything to do with this now because this is just all wrong and this isn't how it's supposed to be. And I think it's the shame that drives, that drives it.

Shame and fear. It's the fear.

Fear, like, oh no, what are we gonna do now? And It is a season of relying on God like we've never relied on him before because his promises are true. The promises that I prayed for these children when they were small are still true.

Right.

And so I count on that. Also, we have to take ourselves off the hook. You know, once our children reach adulthood, we are not responsible for them. And that is what's really hard because we think that we are. But adults are free and autonomous and they, they get to make their own choices. We don't always like that, you know?

Yeah. You know, and, and even in adolescence, we can contain them. We are legally responsible for them, right? We can create rules, but we, we cannot be responsible for their heart and their soul.

We have to— Their will.

And their will. Yes. And, you know, I have found that, that The hardest part is the blame, is that parents will blame themselves. And we can think of a million ways that we did wrong, that we, you know, we messed up and, you know, we hurt our children. Or like you said, the church hurt the children when you had them in the church. And so it's so easy to blame yourself. And then the other thing we do is we blame the children.

Yes.

You know, they didn't do this and what's wrong with you and why are you like this? And because the blame game makes us feel like, okay, at least we can say there's a reason because sometimes there's not. There's a reason we feel like there's just more order in the world. And instead of recognizing that sometimes there isn't a reason.

Yeah.

And that's hard to hold, right? And we don't know what the outcome is going to be. And that's hard to hold. It's harder to hold that than to just blame.

Right. Right.

You know, I talked to my kids a little bit about this. And it's a foundational belief that I have that a challenged faith is a stronger faith.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes. I agree. I say, Mom, let's normalize wrestling. Let's understand that it is normal for our children to grapple with their faith. And for a season, they might say they don't believe, but it's just because they're trying to figure it out. So I say, let's give them a mat. And watch them wrestle. Let's support them through it. A thing that I've found that I wasn't really good at with my older kids, but I've learned through the 5, is that go ahead and ask the question. Go ahead and say, tell me what you're thinking about it. Tell me what you think about the church. Tell me what you think about God. Tell me what you think about religion. And then don't freak out. Just listen. Right. And our kids, all of my kids have been so willing to be honest and share where they're really at. And every time they do, I simply say, thank you for sharing your heart with me. I know that was probably hard for you, but thank you, because it communicates a level of respect, one.

Right.

It communicates that you value their opinion, even if it's vastly different from mine. It's okay. They're human. They're my children. I want to honor them. And we can do it that way, simply by listening, not by correcting, not by fixing, not by solving, but simply listening. And that takes practice and self-control. You're like, Jesus, help me.

Oh, that self-control. Because I know for myself, my mouth just, you know, wants to just go, go, go. Um, when my kids don't, don't agree with me, you know, You mentioned, and like I said, a challenged faith I think is, is a stronger faith. But then there's the reality that maybe they won't come back.

Yeah.

And how does a mom take care of herself and take care of her relationship, not necessarily holding on to that idea that, you know, they're gonna come back?

Right. It's called surrender. And we're not surrendering into nothingness. We're surrendering to our benevolent King who knows our child full well, who is writing their story. You know, we think that we were writing our children's story. We think we had a say in it. And we're like, I'm the author of this story, and isn't it fabulous? Right.

But

we are not. We are not writing their story. God is writing their story. And I trust him because I know my God well, because I know he is who he says he is, because I spent time with him, because I talk to him, because I pour it all out when I'm sad and overwhelmed and disappointed and upset. Um, I know he's a faithful God, and so I just simply trust him. It seems so Simple, but it boils down to, do I trust God? And I do.

It is a simple thing to say yes. The practice is a struggle. The practice is a struggle when you are, you know, hurting and you're in relationship with your child and sometimes seeing your child go down a path that may not even be healthy for them. And it's clear for you to see that. So I wonder if you've had the experience of— so there's, there's the idea of walking away from God, right? Walking away from the faith that you've taught your child. And then there's also behaviors or lifestyles.

Yeah.

That really go against maybe your own moral code.

Yes.

Um, how do moms Navigate that part?

That is so hard. And that's where, you know, we saw this all come out a few weeks ago when Roe v. Wade was overturned, and moms would reach out to me and say, this has kept me up at night. I can't believe where my child stands on it, you know, when it's so vastly different from, from where they are. And

yeah,

I just simply return to You know, only the Holy Spirit can convict someone of what they believe and what they think about something. That is not our job anymore. And so we just continually return to God. It's a continual returning, returning, returning, relying on, trusting in. But it's not— it's this deep assurance. That God is working all the hard things together for good, because that is who he says he is. That is his character. And so if a mom hasn't cultivated her connection with God, this is going to be a very difficult season.

Mm-hmm. So she really needs to go deeper.

Yeah,

she needs to go deeper in her own relationship with God.

Absolutely, absolutely.

You know, as I was thinking about that, and you're— and you were talking about a child having a very different viewpoint from a parent, we forget, and sometimes we're completely oblivious to the fact that a couple of things. Number one, none of our children have the same parents because they came into, right, our family at different points in our lives, as you know, different places.

Oh yes.

And And so we imagine that all of our children have the same parents, that they had the same experience. And on top of that, children are born with their own temperament. Their temperament interacts with the environment, which creates a personality over 3 years, right? Yes. And so we have this very unique point of view that each of our children have. And so there's no possible way they're going to agree with us on every single facet, nor, nor do I think that they should. And sometimes And this is really hard when we know something deeply, when we have no doubt about something. It's really hard to remember that we are not right on everything. All the things that we believe as a person, they can't possibly be right.

Exactly. Oh, you hit the nail on the head with that one.

Yes. And it's so hard to hold that. Especially when there are things that we feel and know so deeply. And it's not about abandoning our beliefs at all. It's about believing strongly what we know and also being open to understanding that we don't know everything.

Yes, I believe it's called humility.

Oh yes, that's a beautiful word for it.

Yes, like the longer I live, the less I know.

Oh, it's so true. It's so true. And remember, You know, well, the other thing I was going to say is there must have been times in your life— I know I certainly had them— where I've questioned my faith, I've doubted God, I've been angry, right? And I think it's important to share those things with our children.

Yes.

Because often they assume, oh, you've always believed this and you've never— but when they understand that, that you've had these experiences too, maybe not to the extent that they are having, Having it. But if you can relate to them on some level, then you've got a connection there.

Yeah, it's called empathy.

Look at you naming all the things. So here's what we need: humility, we need empathy, we need to surrender, we need to have acceptance, we need to deepen our relationship with God. Wow, wow. Sum that up in a nutshell.

I know, honestly, where would we be without him? Where would we be? We'd be lost. We'd be heartbroken in a heap on the floor instead of moving forward with the good thing that God's had. You know, once our children grow up, there's so much beauty. There's so much beauty still left for us to embrace. I didn't start writing till my kids, my 5th child was a senior in high school. I had never written a word in my life.

Wow.

And then I had this dream of a book in my heart. And I was like, well, gosh, if I'm going to write a book, I really should learn how to write. So, so there's so much good. I could go on and on about the beauty of the empty nest. It is the sweetest season for my husband and I to just focus on each other. You know, we were married and by our first anniversary, we were pregnant with our first child and then 5 kids later and 30 years of active parenting. And I was like, oh, we are tired. But now we just get to— we have the freedom. We just walk around the house saying we can do whatever we want. Can you believe we can do whatever we want?

I can't quite imagine it. I have one launched and one launching next month, which is, you know, I'm in that space right now.

Yeah, you are.

I am. Yes. And I'm feeling all of the angst and, and the feelings. But I'm glad to hear that. And for women who are maybe looking at empty nest in a couple of years or in the midst of it, I know that that's encouraging to hear about the beauty of the season because so much right now is about loss. You know, it's about sadness and sometimes just, you know, regret and just wondering what the relationship is going to be like moving forward. But thank you for sharing that because we need to hear that. We need to hear about it. Yes. Yes. So can you share with me how you work with women? Because you are a coach for midlife mamas, which I think is phenomenal because there's so many types of coaching out there, but who even thinks about, let's coach women through this transition? Because there's a lot going on. There's hormonal stuff going on. Let's not forget our own internal stuff. And then our kids are leaving. Our life is changing. So—

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I've been a biblical life coach for about 3 years. And, you know, I just— what I love about coaching— actually, I love counseling too, and I just, I think it's also beautiful. But the way that coaching is different is that we don't look at your past. We look at ways you want to move forward. And so many moms feel stuck.

Mm-hmm.

And so just sitting down and having some conversations, I just ask thoughtful questions. I'm a good listener trying to figure out what you need most. And I think I don't give advice even though I do that on my blog. I don't do that in coaching because that's not the role of my relationship, but I can support you and I can ask you really good questions so you can kind of have your own moment of an epiphany where you go, oh, I could do that. You know, it's really about mindsets.

I'm a therapist and so I do that obviously, but in my own therapy, that is the very most frustrating thing that my therapist will not give me advice and yet it is exactly, exactly what I need. It facilitates my growth even though, you know, I want that so badly, but that's the shortcut, right? That's the shortcut and that's not to growth. Yeah.

Exactly. I'm a huge fan of growth. I'm like, we spend a lifetime growing and if you're not growing then You need to do something about it because stagnancy just sounds awful.

Yeah. So a mom who might be struggling with maybe her child straying from the faith or, um, just struggling in midlife mommahood, they can reach out to you and you have—

well,

first of all, your podcast.

Yes, the Midlife Mama Podcast. This is an adventure that I just began last March and it is just I love it so much. I just, I have a Facebook community. Um, it's called the Midlife Motherhood Community, and I have about 650 moms in there. And I just go in there live every week and talk about what we're talking about that day. And then I record it and that becomes my podcast.

Hmm.

So my Facebook group, it's just a place for moms to feel supported. And I ask lots of, I ask lots of questions mostly because I love to get women talking and thinking about it and sharing their experiences. And I love how they help each other out.

Beautiful. So can you give just a couple of last words to a mom who might be struggling with a child who has walked away from their faith?

Yeah, I think you just need to know that God sees you, Mama. He sees you. He is for you. He is with you. He understands the pain that you're going through. He's just asking you to lean in closer. Lean in closer to him, bring it all to him. I love in the Psalms when David is such a beautiful example of what it means to be vulnerable with God, when David would just pour it all out, all his anguish, all his pain, and he was so raw and honest. And then at the end of those times when he would do that, he would always say, but you, O God, and he would recount God's character and his faithfulness and his goodness. And so it's, it's our example to just pour it all out before God. But let's not forget who God is, how he is at work, how he is with us. He is our help. He is our shield. He is our stronghold. He is our strength. And we, as we surrender to him, we just lay our kids down and we say, they're yours, God. And he's more able to handle them than we are. Our time is done. Our season is done. And we release, and then we can walk. We continue to walk in faith and we trust God and we maintain our bonds of love. More than anything, we are called to love because Christ compels us.

Right. I love that. You know, I always remember our children come through us. They don't just come to us. Yeah.

Wow.

Oh, beautiful. Pamela, thank you so much for your wisdom and for sharing with us. What's the best way for people to get a hold of you?

You can find me at pamolahenkelman.com or you can find me on Instagram @phenkelman, H-E-N-K-E-L-M-A-N. Yeah, so just— and then the Midlife Mama Podcast. And I just have lots of free resources for moms on my website and you can sign up for coaching. And I also do a lot of speaking. I love to speak at churches and women's conferences and moms events. So I just want to, I just want to support these moms. I'm, I'm just tired of moms like us not being supported. And so I just, I just want to help.

Well, I love the work that you're doing, and I know that you are helping. So thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you.