Why Women Lie

This is not a podcast about being broken, although you may have been. This is a podcast about strength for women who find themselves in difficult relationships, including that sometimes difficult one with yourself. We'll look at your relationship through a lens of psychology, faith, and a little dash of my own kind of feminism. We're not fixing them. We're fixing you. And that changes everything. Welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. Save yourself, heal your relationships. Listen in. Welcome to Stronger in the Difficult Places. I'm your host, Dr. Zoe, and I'm so glad that you're here today. Today's topic is why women lie. That sounds so salacious, but the guest— our guest is Susan Shapiro Barash, and Susan is an American fiction and nonfiction author. She writes fiction under her pen name, Susanna Marin. Susan's books focus on the gender divide, how women are positioned in American society, and their feelings about themselves and different roles. And you guys know I'm all about psychology, faith, and feminism, and how all of those kind of come together. And when I think about women and deception, this is just so fascinating to me. So I thought maybe you'd like to take a listen and see if you see yourself in any of the things that we're talking about today. I rarely have fiction writers. In fact, I can't remember if I've ever had a fiction writer on the podcast, but Susan being a researcher, journalist, and author, I just love her take on things. And so I'm excited to bring her back. We talked before about women and infidelity, and now we're gonna talk a little bit about why women lie. But first up, my win and my fail. So my win is that I started filming the documentary with Oprah Network. I got to fly back home and see my family. And I got to see my daughter and my grandkids, who I don't see enough, and my good friend Julie from back home. And it was really a whirlwind because we flew in and flew out so quickly, but it was really good. It was very sweet. And I got to go back to see my high school. Oh my goodness, how many of you guys have been back to see your high school? That was fun. And just some of my old stomping grounds. My fail is that I'm behind on my writing deadlines. Go figure! I got into a great cadence of writing, and all of this process and flying back home, it got me off track. And so I'm a little discombobulated, just, you know, I've got to do way more than 1,500 words now. For any of you writers out there, you get what I'm feeling, but I will get it done because that's what I do. And so, yeah, and I'm looking forward to the summer. My son's coming home in a week and a half from Rhode Island. We'll have the summer together. Another fail is that I just don't have my summer planned out. My friend Julie's coming into town. I'm excited to hang out with her, but the rest of my summer is just not as planned as I'd like for it to be. And sometimes that is life. That is life. You know, I was talking to a client today, and when I'm working with my clients, I'm always working on helping them improve, right? Sometimes though, sometimes in all of our striving to improve, we also have to sit back and just accept. And I know for me right now, I'm in a, I need to accept some things season. I'm definitely in a striving season as well, but I think more deeply the lesson I need to learn is acceptance. And maybe you're in that place too. Maybe there's so much going on for you, good and bad, and We can fight against it, and we can try to figure out all the ways to solve the problems, but sometimes we do need to just sit and accept and honor and acknowledge where we are in this season. And know the beauty is that things don't stay the same. They continue to grow and change, and your situation will as well. So, let's listen in as we talk about why women lie. Welcome. This is the second time you've been on my podcast, and I loved our conversation. It was a very, very popular conversation, just so you know. I think one of the most popular, at least on Instagram. I didn't look at my other stats, but it's clearly just the conversations about women and what women truly, really think and feel and deal with. I love your mind, so I'm really excited to have this conversation because I want to talk about mothers and daughters. Daughters and Secrets and why and what you found in your research that has led you to these books. But can you first share with my audience the story that you shared with me about why you have a pen name? Because I got this book in the mail from, I don't know, maybe your publicist or maybe the publisher, I'm not sure. And I didn't know who who sent me this book. And I often get books in the mail to read, and usually I know who, sometimes I don't. And so I kind of set it aside and I was gonna look it up later. Um, it took me a while before I realized it was your book because it doesn't have your name. So can you share? Because I think it, it really has a lot to do with what we're gonna talk about today.

Yeah. Um, this name Susanna Marin, which I think is very pretty and I—

It is pretty.

Yeah, thank you. Susan Shapiro Barash. So this began when I was 19 years old. My parents came to visit me at college, and I was in my second year, and I was alone with my mother for a moment, so I figured I'd corner her. And I said, Mom, listen, I have to change my name now because I know that I'll be a writer, and I'm doing well here in the writing department, which was, you know, pretty Pretty significant. It was a very wonderful college experience. So anyway, she said to me, well, you can't, because I thought long and hard about that name, Susan Rona Shapiro. And I doubted that because she didn't— I mean, really, Susan Rona? And then she said to me, and one day you'll have children, which had not occurred to me, Zoe, until that moment. I mean, it's fall of my sophomore year. I've just turned 19. She said, one day you'll have children and it will be your prerogative. Right. give them their names, and you'll understand. And I remember saying to myself, if I have children— I have 3— I will give them great names, and they can do whatever they want with them.

Yeah.

Right. I knew. But that's the whole thing. Each generation, the pendulum shifts.

Yes.

So I said to her, well, let me just tell you, I want to take the A from Rona and change the spelling, make it Susanna, and take Grandma's, her mother's Made a name. She said, I'm so sorry, this is the name I gave you. So as a pleaser and a good girl, Mm-hmm. I, and then decades later, when after 13 nonfiction books investigating in a journalistic way, nonfiction, um, how women really feel as wives and mothers and sisters and colleagues and foes and friends and, and why women lie and keep secrets, a study I did. I, you know, was ready to go back to fiction and I earned my graduate degree in fiction writing. And, but I'd also been a journalist in, you know, in college and blah, blah. And I, and my agent went out with the book and St. Martin's, my longtime publisher, said, would she want a pen name? And my agent said to me, Susan, why would you do that? You're, you've established yourself, you're so respected. And I said, no, I want it. I've had it all these years. She said, no, they'll give you the name. Yeah. Because they wanted to be very, very melodic. Can I just tell you, we were on the phone, which no one seems to do much these days for this, right? Call, no texting or emailing. And I said, I want Susanna Marin. And she said, huh, I'll call you back. She called me back. She said, done. And I finally got my name.

Yay!

But they did change the spelling. So Susanna seems almost Southern, and Marin has A different spelling, but it is the name I dreamed up.

That's beautiful.

And it makes me think every time I look at it, well, almost every time. So I, I say to myself, if only we really listened to ourselves. Because, you know, I say, if only women could really hear what's so important to them and own it. Because I, if I didn't do it at 19, okay, that is a little young, but possibly By like the time my nonfiction was going out that I said, listen, this is the name I want. I, I don't want my father's name. I don't want my husband's name. I want this name. But I didn't. And I think that that's the takeaway because it took so long to get there.

I'm so glad that you did. I'm so glad that you got there. What have you found in your research about Why women don't, why it takes so long, why women hold on to things that, that don't serve us just to please others, right? Um, why do you— why have you found that is?

I think that we're so compromising by nature, but the nature really seems to come from the nurture in this instance. Nurture meaning societal messaging. You— we have to pick and choose our battles always.

Mm-hmm.

I've interviewed, you know, thousands of women in the aggregate to speak about how they truly feel versus what they do and what they measure as not significant enough to have a battle over or to make waves and what is worth fighting for. And I think that it's just so deeply ingrained in us. I hope that it's changing, but interestingly, in this novel, The one who is mo— is diciest, trickiest, and certainly we'll talk about a moral core, is Lucinda, the mother of Maribel and her 2 younger sisters. So Lucinda has the kind of ambition and knows what it takes to get where she needs to be, but is willing.

Mm.

Won't compromise. Does it make her a wonderful person? Well, I want people to read and decide. But, but it makes her someone we have to admire because of her fortitude in a very patriarchal culture.

Right. You know, it's interesting, and I'll— I'm, I'm interested in your take on this. I am reading the Bible all the way through this year, and I'm doing it with a partner, and we were talking, and I'm specifically reading the Bible with an eye on women in the Bible and understanding the culture and the influence of faith And patriarchy and that type of thing. And what I'm starting to notice is it struck me that obviously we understand that women had zero, less than zero power in that culture and time, and what they had to do to try to wield any power. And there was so much deceit, so much kind of trickery and moving. And I mean, women were essentially sold to a father or a cousin or a husband, like, hey, you want her? We'll give you her to pay for whatever. And it just made me start to think about the whole concept of femininity and womanhood and how it also is tied to a certain extent to those ways of women that can sometimes seem deceitful or— what is it, that word? The wiles of women, something like that. And it's tied to femininity, I have seen in culture. But what I'm seeing is it's actually just tied to survival.

I can't believe you said that. I was about to say to you, this is about survival. And that's one of the themes of my novel, is even in this gorgeous, you know, wealthy community, women need to survive because it is male supreme. It is about male supremacy. It is a male supreme culture. It was And I don't know if you're reading the Old or the New Testament, but it does sound old. Old. Okay. So I did both many decades ago at college. And, you know, these books were written by men, and of course they're historical, but they're also a telling of a story and interpretive for sure. But what is clear is how women were subjugated and it continues. So any woman who survives Prevails, wins.

Yes.

We root for, and, and we have to look at it a little differently because it, it, it's not easy. It, it was certainly not easy then, but it still isn't easy in a way. And,

right,

I just feel that women do what they must to get what they need. And survival is definitely part of it. And also having voice, you know, where do our voices come from? And so, um, in this book, the sisters each have very different careers and a very different approach to their careers.

Hmm.

So, you know, it is Caroline who strives for a very plum position. In the family business.

Mm-hmm.

And yet she still has to fight for it. And I did that very purposely because first of all, it reflects what real women have said in real time, my other projects. And also because it's just the truth. It's really, it just, we're always doubling our skills, our determination, our savvy because it just does, it isn't easy.

Right, right, exactly. It isn't easy. And so there are things that women have had to do since the very beginning of time to survive. And those messages and ways of behaving, which is culture, has gotten passed down from woman to woman. But it's not, in my opinion, tied to being a woman or femininity. It's tied to survival. Yeah.

Tied to survival and tied to a culture that's really unrelenting. Because because it isn't that we, and this really does reflect the many women with whom I've spoken. I know that we all realize the situation, and yet we can't fight it. And that goes back to what I said about compromising. You can't fight it because the chances are in fighting it you'll lose. whatever you have gained. For instance, equal pay for equal work. Still not a concept despite the ERA, despite everything. Right. And until there is equal pay for equal work, women will make compromises in the workplace for sure. For instance, I've interviewed women and they've said, well, you know, my male counterpart is paid, you know, X amount more. But I have 2 children at home. My husband was just laid off. I can't afford to fight for what's right. I can only be grateful for what I have. And, and that goes way beyond the workplace. It go— it, it functions as not only survival, but a way of managing.

Mm-hmm.

Taking what we can get. And it all goes back to, and this is in my study, Tripping the Prom Queen: The Truth About Women and Rivalry. Because we're all given this life, this experience where there's not enough pie, where it's a limited goods experience. So if you get something, Zoe, one of your friends might think, well, she has it, I can't have it.

Right.

And until we stop thinking that way, we'll never get ahead. And actually in this book, and I don't want to give it, and I don't want to do any spoilers here, but I will say that this is the suspense story where within the first 15 pages, Maribel's handsome, young, dashing, popular Palm Beach husband unexpectedly dies.

Hmm.

And Maribel is now a widow in Palm Beach. But when Samuel dies, all the lies and truths come to the surface. And everyone was involved with Samuel in some way. Caroline, the middle sister's husband, worked with him at the family business, Barrows, which is chain of convenience stores. And Caroline, you know, keeps wondering what her husband knew. And then Lucinda, the mother, this very tricky mother, has Her own anger toward Samuel. And suddenly we understand. And then Maribel— and this goes kind of to what we talked about the first time that we met— Maribel starts to ask herself— they have no kids, her other sisters have little children— who am I to have been married to this man as the reality comes to the surface?

Mm-hmm.

Was he So do we really know with whom we're partnered?

Yes.

Right. And then of course, another one of my favorite themes, which, um, I did a whole study on called Reclaiming Ourselves: How Women Dispel a Legacy of Bad Choices.

Mm-hmm.

And in that book, I really looked at how we often sleepwalk through life.

Yes.

And how an inciting incident wakes us up, meaning an incredibly sad inciting incident such as Samuel's death or the accident, or a really incredibly joyous and unexpected event.

Mm-hmm.

But either way, for many of us, all ages, in all different, you know, periods, stages of our life, we're sleepwalking in order to survive. So All the women in this book, when Samuel dies, they all wake up. And then, of course, how did Samuel die? Why did Samuel die? And who was he? So I wanted to look at all those layers of, again, how women are.

Wow. I love that. And I love that quote. I'm going to use it, share it, because I've certainly found it in my life, and I see it so much in my clients' life, that concept that we sleepwalk. I think women especially sleepwalk through sometimes, like you said, your whole life and sometimes through seasons. And something happens and they wake up. And usually I'm getting them during that wake-up time, which is usually a very uncomfortable time. Right?

Painful. In the study, and that came out a long time ago, in that study, the women actually said, many of them, that it was less painful to sleepwalk than to face what their reality was or what the challenges were. On the other hand, women are all also acrobats and acrobatic. And in this novel, we'll see what each sister does in order to get through once these lies and secrets are out.

Right. And we sleepwalk because it's easier, because in the present, it's always easier to sleepwalk. And that's what I talk with my clients about. But what you're doing is you're jeopardizing the future. And so if you can allow yourself to be uncomfortable and not sleepwalk in the present so that you can actually give yourself some beautiful gifts for the future, then that is the best thing that you can do for yourself. Even though in the present it's always better, it always seems better, feels better to sleepwalk.

And yes, and I also think that the amount of faith we have in ourselves plays into this.

Mm-hmm.

If you really can believe in yourself just by, maybe I'll, you know, give examples. I've spoken with women who were abused, I emotionally, physically, financially. I've spoken with women who were really told untruths about their family, their children, their, I mean, it's, you know, what's really, I've spoken with women where like, This is such a sad situation where a child is going through a hard time and they're not really getting the information they need even from the school or from other mothers. So if we really have faith in ourselves, we can do a lot more.

Oh my God.

And when I created Maribel, I've been asked on my book tour, I've been on a pretty big book tour since this came out recently. You know, who do I identify with most out of the 3 sisters? Because they're very distinctive. And I think having written a book called Sisters Devoted or Divided and kept that study going, that I wanted to show how, you know, first of all, what loyalty is, because these sisters are all put to the test.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, things get crazy in this novel, and so each sister is put to the test. So What is loyalty to your sister? What is loyalty to yourself? And we all go along and hope for the best. But when something like this happens, you know, who— your very specific personality has so much to do with how you treat this problem and get through it.

Yeah, it absolutely does. You know, I want to talk a little bit— well, I want to talk about your research, but I want to talk a little bit about sisters because you talked earlier about women and rivalry. rivalry. And I would imagine all of those truths about women and rivalry and why we, we have that thing between us women also then gets put upon the whole sister relationship as well.

Oh yes, it's very, it's very complicated for sisters. And I purposely titled that book Sisters Devoted or Divided, because if they're devoted and it's going well, These women, this report reported to me that they really didn't need as many women friends.

Ah,

women who either don't have sisters and will, I'm sure you've heard this phrase, we all have a million times, but possibly in your work too. Oh, she's like a sister to me.

Yes. Yes.

So a sister figure, they don't need that and they don't need such close female friendships. But for the sisters who are not getting along, where they really are divided and there's a lot of family conflict, the search for female friends who really fill that need is very strong. The search is really important because they had it at some point with their sister.

Mm-hmm.

Now it's a def— you know, it's a deficit. They're not, they really are missing it. Yeah. And I wanted Just to talk about the characters for a moment. So Maribel, they're all very attractive. Their mother, they come from the Panhandle, so they come from a place where everything was less luxurious and just kind of labeled. Mm-hmm. But Lucinda, as a very young woman, she gave birth to Maribel. She was only 19, so she's still very pretty. Their father dropped dead playing bridge in a Big Palm Beach at a club. And so she's really in charge. And I want it to be only sisters and their mother. I wanted a very matriarchal environment.

Yeah.

To see how the power played out. But Maribel, you know, when I'm asked, who do you identify with? Well, I identify with Maribel very strongly because it's one of really the most complicated scenarios for a woman, which is you're young and she has this great job. She's the you know, the editorial director of a fictive magazine in Palm Beach called the Palm Beach— I'm sorry, Palm Beach Confidential. And she's there at the magazine and she loves her job and she loves her work. And it's a charity-minded family. And she goes to every event and she dresses beautifully. But she is convinced— again, I don't want to give it away, but we've talked about affairs before.

Sure.

She's convinced that her husband is having an affair from the very beginning.

Mm-hmm.

And so she feels very on edge, but she wants everything to be okay.

Mm-hmm.

That so reflects how women feel.

Right.

We, we have, and this goes to my study about why women lie. It's called Little White Lies, Deep Dark Secrets: The Truth About Why Women Lie. So based on my research, The behavior is the lie, but, but the cause is the, the secret. The secret keeps the lie going.

Mm-hmm.

So she can't even admit to her sisters that Samuel might be unfaithful. And her wishful thinking, which is a chapter in that nonfiction study, is that everything will be fine if she could just talk to Samuel. So she's a very hopeful, And very, um, good girl-esque character.

Yeah.

Caroline has 2 little girls. She's all about business and she would love to fit into Palm Beach society. But based on my research,

mm-hmm,

not many women on this island, the island of Palm Beach, you know, cuz it's a little barrier island, only 18 miles long and a few miles wide. Not many of them are really working. And, you know, there's just a lot of privilege.

Yeah.

And he really— she works hard. She's the only one of the 3 sisters who works at the family business.

Mm-hmm.

And she has all these career ambitions, but it's— she's obligated to be the good and perfect Palm Beach wife and mother, which we know is a full-time job.

Yeah.

You know, when you're in— and she wants to be in her sanctum and in the right circles. But she can't really fit because she aspires to something just for herself.

Yeah.

Which is a— and then Raleigh is the youngest sister and her feet have rarely touched the ground. She has a little boy and she's an artist and her husband's an artist. And so they don't fit the, you know, money machine,

right?

You know, really fancy life of Palm Beach. And her mother would really like her to. Lucinda says, we got here by hook or crook. And how did they get there? Another part of the suspense. And so she's really pressured to, you know, Raleigh, come on, can't you keep, you know, keep at it? Build your— if you're an artist, then at least build the business.

Right.

Do the portraits of all the other mothers and children. And so she's— and she really Has a very different experience. So when once Samuel dies and the mother Lucinda discovers what Samuel's done, each sister is fending for herself. But before that, they were a group. Okay. They were like part of a team.

Right.

And can't be anymore. Too, too much really bad stuff has gone down, we learn.

Right. So then they get into the sibling rivalry aspect.

Right. And as I said earlier, Raleigh was always like the favorite one because she's 9 years younger and then 8 years younger. And so she's always been really— she's— they let her do whatever she wants. The other 2, very judgmental of each other. And then who does Lucinda, the mother, favor most? And we'll see that she plays one daughter against The other, which I really wanted to have as part of this story. Where does that put any of us?

Who wins?

No one wins. But I don't want to give it away.

Good. I'm glad. So I love how you use your research to fuel, of course, your nonfiction writing, but your fiction writing where you're just playing out these same themes that happen for real women on a daily basis. And we learn so much as humans through story, right? Story is the thing that captivates all of us where we can sit and pay attention and we really can learn through other people's stories. Can you tell me how you do the research? How do you find the women in your research?

I began my book so long ago, A Passion for More, the first study, because we talked about how I kept it going for 30 years. So I was really in a different world when I did the research that in the early '90s and I actually put ads in newspapers across the country.

Love it. Okay.

Also asked cousins and friends who lived in different states to put ads up in, like, women's health clubs and—

I love it.

Across the country. And I put a hotline into my home office.

Wow.

And that's how I started. You know, now I advertise, you know, I look online and of course networking, Zoe.

Mm-hmm.

For Passion for More, through networking, I actually even got to speak with military wives.

Oh, I love it.

Yeah, that's a hard place to infiltrate. And so whenever I interview a woman, I always ask her if she knows anyone who might wanna speak with me.

Hmm.

And that works as well.

Yeah. Wonderful. Well, if, if I could ever be a part of your research, I would love to.

I would love to quote you. I'm actually working on a new nonfiction book, and I would love to quote you as an expert. So we'll talk about that later. That would be great.

Absolutely. Absolutely. The work you do is so very important because you research things that women don't talk about, that we experience on a daily basis, and we don't talk about it regularly, or we do in small pods in secret, but we don't— you almost research Shame, which is what I love, is I love researching shame, but you research the thing that women are shameful about, and I just love that. So before we close today, can you talk a little bit about why do women lie?

Women lie because there is simply no other way to not be judged. And so there are big lies and small lies. But the behavior is exactly the same. For instance, let me give you a small lie. 2 friends are shopping and they're in the dressing room and everything's on sale. And one friend says, do you think I look fat in this dress? Oh no. And you're really thinking, well, she probably shouldn't get that dress. Mm-hmm. Not, you know, or do you think my baby fat has come off? Or, okay. Little lies. Mothers racing now that we have cell phones to get their child at soccer practice, something. Mom, where are you? I'm in traffic. No, in truth, you left late. Right. Little lies. But why? Because you don't wanna hurt the first one about the dress. You don't want to hurt your friend's feeling, feelings, and you don't wanna be the bad guy who said, You're right. You can't wear that kind of dress until you're back to your whatever weight.

Okay.

We're not gonna do that. Why would we jeopardize, who knows how much that could offend the friend, your child? Why would you disappoint your child? So you lie. The big lies, patriarchal judgments. So for instance, I interviewed women about their work.

Mm-hmm.

Lie to my boss all the time. Why should I tell him I can only get a mammogram? Appointment before 5 in the afternoon.

Mm-hmm.

I, should I tell him my daughter has a ballet recital? I have to get to the grade school.

Right.

Instead, you know, you, you, they, they will say something that they think will not make the boss, a male boss, judge. And sometimes a female boss sets them back.

Yeah.

But lie again so that you don't stir anything up. Don't get judged. Um, and then lies about family all the time. You know, how do you feel about your sister-in-law? Oh, she's great. Why would you upset your husband?

Mm-hmm.

Or, and women who have dared to say the truth about their mothers-in-law. I did a whole study on mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law. Doesn't work. Mm-hmm.

You know,

and then the, you know, should I be honest about it? So why jeopardize? Why position yourself in a place that could only make it hard for you? And so, and I have a whole section on survival lies.

Well, it kind of goes back to being the good girl and the people pleaser, right? You don't want to step out of that role and be seen as somebody who's not nice and isn't going with the flow.

But it goes beyond that too, Zoe, because there are specific— there are some famous people who have, like when Brooke Shields years ago said she had postpartum depression and everyone said, oh my goodness. First of all, you're not supposed to talk about it, right? So that goes to the perfect kind of woman that you're just— and then also, this is what I meant by beyond that, that everyone says, oh, a woman who's failing because she has postpartum depression. So the way that we're viewed, how could we help? Right? So these lies, I also have a section in the book on designated lies where you— Mm-hmm. Oh, Women going back to the workplace. They've been out of the workplace for 8 years because they were taking care of their children. Well, the second one just started kindergarten.

Right.

Time to

go back.

Your resume empty for years. So I interviewed— that's called the designated liar. Yeah. Where they said they talked to a friend. The friend said, sure, pretend you worked in my flower shop, whatever it takes. How could we not lie about these things and, and keep our feelings or our, what happened a secret if it will only harm us. And so that's why that, that, that takes place in this book.

Right.

No, and secrets and deception that we need in order to not suffer more.

Wow. That just hit me because nobody puts on their resume. Took off 8 years to raise my children, right? We all have to figure out how do I account for those 8 years because there's some kind of shame in motherhood.

Shame and tremendous, um, amount of just like, just acting like, of course she was away. You know, look, not, not saying good for her, she's coming back. But saying, of course she had to take time off without it being acknowledged and honored.

Right.

But dismissed. Not just shame, but dismissive. This happens too. And I think you're right. So much shame around it. Wow. Do I have worth? I wasn't out in the world. And what about the men? No one says, well, maybe some men now, but a minority, I think. Probably, although I don't know the stats, as stay-at-home dads getting back into the workplace.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, after the downturn of 2008, there were some articles that came out saying that women were going back to the workplace at a better clip. Why? Because they were willing to take part-time work, because they were willing to take pay cuts after, you know, Mm-hmm. When you're given everything, you don't have that flexibility. You're not, you're not willing to contort yourself to get something.

Absolutely right.

You think you should have it all, but women have never been treated that way from the Bible till today. And so we do what we can to make it work.

Mm-hmm.

And much more layered and Interesting. Just saying.

Yes. Well, I definitely agree. Susan, it is always a joy to talk with you about all things womanhood and our culture. Thank you so much for your nonfiction. Thank you so much for this fiction book and for your fiction writing that does the same very thing. It puts a highlight and just a light on women and what We do and are and why and all the, the secret reasons why we do the things we do.

Thank you for having me. Always a treat to be here.

I'm sure we'll, we'll, I'll have to have you on again. We'll talk about your next book or another subject. Thank you so much. Have a great day.

Thank you, Zoe.

Oh wait, I just forgot. I want to go over how can people find you?

Oh, okay. So you can go to You can go to my website, either Susanna Marin or Susan Shapiro Barash. It's the same website because I'm the same person. And Maribel's Shadow is on Amazon and barnesandnoble.com and should be in all the bookstores.

Excellent. Getting good reviews, and all of that will be in the show notes.

Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you for listening to Stronger in the Difficult Places. New episodes go up on Tuesdays. Subscribe to my email list so that you can get some encouragement from me. Have a strong week!