A Candid Conversation with the Wildly Courageous Jenny Wood

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Living a life in full is a conversation you always wanted to have with that person who gave an amazing TED Talk or the author of one of your favorite books, or that inspirational Olympian you always wanted to know more about. It's graduate level conversations with those making a difference in the world and in the lives of others. This show brings you new ideas and approaches so that you can live a life in full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout and I hope you enjoy Enjoy this episode. This episode is brought to you by the nonprofit I founded, the center for Global Initiatives. The center is an all volunteer organization so there are no salaries and thus all tax deductible donations can go to the work. While our key country partner is in Tanzania, our work is global and generally focused in the areas of education and healthcare. We also help others to get their nonprofits started or augment others project based initiatives. It's our goal to open source humanitarian intervention and to help make it easier for others to do more good in the world. We are proud to have been ranked a great nonprofit every year since 2011 and to have achieved a Platinum level rating by Guidestar Links. In this episode's show, notes will take you to published articles on our outcomes, a number of helpful tools, and downloadable resources which are all free always. Please Visit us at CenterForGlobalInitiatives.org and be sure to watch our video at Patreon.com DrChrisStout to learn more. Thanks. Welcome to another episode of Living a Life in Full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout. What if I told you that the traits you need to get ahead are the exact opposite of what you've been told most of your life? What if instead I told you that in order to be successful you need to be weird, selfish, shameless, obsessed, nosy, manipulative, brutal, reckless and bossy? Well, that's what former Google leader and top career coach Jenny Wood recommends. Jenny counters conventional wisdom by achieving your goals in the sense that she gives us permission to ditch our fear and chase after what we want unapologetically. But to do so takes courage. What Ginny calls wild courage. And that's the basis of her New York Times bestseller, Wild Courage. Go after what you want and get it. Ginny reclaims those nine traits from their negative shackles and looks at how to apply them in a savvy, insane way to professional success. Whether you're trying to impress your new boss, snag a stretch promotion or land a life changing deal. In addition to being a best selling author, Jenny is a speaker, former Google executive, and former Harvard Business School researcher who knows that real success isn't about following the rules or waiting your turn. She was also the founder of Own youn Career, one of Google's largest career programs. Through that program, she trained 39,000 people on acing a job search, building relationships, personal branding, effective email writing, landing the right mentor, maximizing workplace influence, and most importantly, increasing confidence. Her practical, no nonsense approach empowers ambitious people to break the mold in order to be better leaders, build influence and reach their full potential. Jenny's been featured by NBC, Bloomberg, Harvard Business Review, Forbes Inc. And Business Insider. She earned her BA in Economics and International Business at Brandeis and is an FAA licensed private pilot, a daily hiker, an improv student, a wife and mother of two, a tap dancer, and of course a zucchini bread connoisseur. Hey Ginny, welcome. It's good to have you on.

It is great to be here, Chris. Yes, of course. Everyone should find the best zucchini bread recipe available to them here, here.

We'll do a deep dive into that a little bit later.

So that's our next, that's our follow up episode.

Exactly, exactly. So you know, I have to say, you know, with kind of talking about your background and your bonafides, it's. Your journey is fascinating. I mean you've, you've risen through the ranks at global behemoth Google to empowering others to take bold ownership of the their careers. And you've done that with your work, with your coaching at Google and now with your new book, which we sincerely will do a deep dive into. But maybe we could start off with Google if my research is right, and correct me if it's not, you began as an entry level starter with an 18 year, eventual 18 year tenure to become an executive there. And I would think that that kind of ascent in a highly competitive environment is really atypical and remarkable. Could you maybe distill with us for us, was there like a core psychological shift or a foundational mindset that was pivotal for you and not just surviving at a place like Google, but really thriving there and becoming a leader there.

It's that serendipity isn't found, it's made. And that if I wanted to be successful at Google, I had to go create my own serendipity. So it wasn't luck, it wasn't coincidence. I went and made things happen for myself. I was bold. I met with my boss's boss twice a year and asked what their key priorities were and how I could align my work around them. I sent what I call a Monday minifesto every Monday to my boss saying, these are two things I'm excited about that I worked on last week and two things I'm excited about to move forward this week and use numbers and the bullets. And so I was really, really proactive and never expected success to come to me on a silver plat. I went out and I created that success for myself. My, my dad always used to say luck is 11pm at the law library. Meaning that when you put in the work when you're, when you're burning the midnight oil, nothing, no knock on work, life balance. But you know, like, if you want to be a successful attorney, it's not just going to happen by chance, you're going to have to study. And that's what I did. I almost like looked at Google. Like, I almost studied the organization and understood the politics, understood what made people tick, what it really took to get promoted, what it really took to get on the high profile projects and then went and did those things that I discovered in my study.

Wow. It's sort of like the Covian thing of begin with the ending in mind. It sounds like, you know, here's, here's where I want to go. But I would imagine you probably kind of had to somewhat develop your own playbook in the midst of, you know, here's where I want to be, here's where I am, you know, the roadmap to getting there. Like you're, you're Monday minifesto. I love that I'm going to talk a lot about some of your clever, you know, turns of phrases, but how do you come up with, I mean, is it just your own level of creativity in the sense of, you know, being able to figure out what that is and then figure out the components and deconstruct and then build upon that career wise there?

Well, it was a little bit, I don't know, maybe it was somewhat accidental. Nothing, nothing I do is, tends to be accidental. But the fact that I ended up creating the playbook for other Googlers, that was a bit accidental. That was, you know, I never worked a day in HR or people operations in my life. I ran an operations team that sat between sales and engineering and helped drive billions of revenue for Google. But then as I was rising and growing into more leadership roles, people would come to me as a mentee and say, hey, Jenny, how did you rise so quickly? You're right, Chris, that, you know, that kind of ascend is not always common. It's not always typical. So people wanted to know the secret sauce. Not that I had any sort of secret sauce per se, but I figured when people came to me, I could offer some tips and thoughts. So one day I realized I was literally walking out of an engineering meeting delivering bugs to engineers. And I said, well, you know, maybe I can share my message further that I tend to tell people when they come up 30 minutes of mentorship with me, I should just write down what's made me successful at Google and share that at scale. So I opened up a blank Google Doc. I wrote down, I don't know, 8, 10, 12 bullets of things that I thought helped me get promoted regularly. And I thought I would do a training and maybe, you know, 35 people would come. Well, 2,000 people came to that first training. So then, and this is the part that felt a little bit by accident where I put this thing together, not thinking much of it. And then it just really spread like wildfire to ultimately actually 56,000 people in nearly 100 countries. So that, and then once that happened, I discovered that I had created a playbook and it covered everything from stakeholder management to networking to negotiation to how do you really get promoted here? You know, what really matters, what doesn't matter. How do you navigate the politics? Who do you cc? Who do you bcc, who do you need to befriend? Right? All, like, all the, like I was saying the quiet stuff out loud and I think because I wasn't in an HR or people operations function and I was just doing this frankly rogue, I was just saying whatever I wanted with zero oversight. I could be really honest and transparent about some of the BS and some of the, you know, real ways to make things happen for yourself. And then I realized that while I liked my, my operations job, I loved coaching people to be better than they think they can be. So then I became really intentional again, whereas the program started by accident. I was like, well, wait a second, I love doing this. How can I help more people? You Know in other industries on things that are even beyond career, like life and relationships and success. But then of course, career as well. And then a book happened. So it was me tapping into my own wild courage to say, I've been here 18 years. I think I can, I think I can, you know, pack up, shop and go try this and be an entrepreneur. Which by the way is the scariest, most daunting thing I've ever done to make. To now be a full time keynote speaker and executive coach and consultant to companies who want to help their employee thrive.

That's great. I want to, let's put a pin in that. I want to circle back to that. But so help me get clarification in my head. So with that kind of, you know, behind the scenes, you know, guerrilla career development kinds of things that you're doing with your friends and colleagues around the world was that then did somebody say, hey, that's really pretty cool, Jenny, do you want to start the own youn career program here at Google? Or did you come up with that and pitch it or tell us about how, what, how that came into being?

It just, I just named it that. I don't even know if I. The first time I did the session or if it became that. I begged forgiveness, not permission. I never had a single approval. I never. And like everyone loved it. I mean, people, operations, hr, everyone loved it.

Yeah.

And so you know, it. Eventually. It first started just as job search tips. I wrote that first document just around how to get your next role at Google. I think I had just gone through a long process of six months, setting up tons of coffee chats and engaging in what I ended up calling my dynamic dozen. The 12 people I wanted to meet in 12 weeks. Because you never really get a job from the job posting. You get it from all the relationships you build over time where they know when the jobs are open before they're even posted on the job posting. Sometimes it's too late by then. They're posted purely for legal reasons.

Right.

People keep lists, people keep benches for maternity leaves, etc. So that first set of tips was just about job searching. And then I expanded it to, you know, personal branding to add a whole module for, for stakeholder management, one for influence, one for, you know, networking, etc. And then again, never asked permission all, all the way through and named it own your career. I don't even know how I picked that name. Very specific, not very sexy, quite frankly. I had a competition where people could create a logo for the brand and pick the brand's colors. Like I really was an entrepreneur. I really engaged a lot of people to make a brand of this for myself without even fully. Well, again, I was intentional. And it never even never occurred to me to ask for permission because it just kept growing and growing and growing. And Google's an incredible place, an incredible place where that is welcome and it's encouraged and it's celebrated. Some of Google's best projects and products came out of people doing something just like this. Gmail came out of somebody having this great idea for what we call a 20% project. Google Earth came out of someone saying, oh, here's, here's a nifty idea. And so the same, same dynamic was at play for me where it was just really celebrated.

Wow, that's what a wonderful incubator to be able to kind of test out those ideas and just even start off with colligial collaboration to build the, build all those components. So I would think maybe also you tap a vein there that's generalizable well beyond Google to just about anybody in any individual or corporate kind of situation where I think a lot of times employees may feel like passengers in their professional lives or in their careers. Do you have any maybe one or two actionable steps that might be first starter things for people that are listening today that maybe are a little bit more passive or a little bit more inhibited before they develop their wild courage, which we'll get into in a second about owning their career trajectory, especially if they're feeling maybe stuck or feeling overwhelmed?

Yeah, well, I love talking about first steps and I especially love talking. I like how you framed this, Chris, around people who might feel a little bit nervous or intimidated or you know, like maybe it feels overwhelming or they don't feel like they naturally have wild courage. There's so much that can be done that doesn't require being an extrovert or being extra bold or tapping into any of these nine scary sounding traits that you know, we'll get to when we start talking about wild courage itself. But one of my favorite tools that really helps with influence, which of course is one of the precursors to getting promoted and advancing in your career. One of my favorite tools is called Woo with you. Take a look at an email you've written recently where you're trying to get someone to say yes to you, to do a thing you wanted them to do or to greenlight your project and count how many of your sentences start with the word I and how many sentences start with the word you aim for at least 80% of your sentences starting with you versus I. That's woo with you. You want to woo people, you want to get them to say yes to you with the word you. So you know, Annabelle was a manager on my team and she was just a rock star and she was delivering a training to a customer on a certain product. But, but we also wanted to upsell them on another product. So she sent an initial, she showed me an initial draft of a note, follow up note to the client and it said, I had so much fun doing this training with your team. I think that your team, you know, is going to do great with this product training and go leverage the product well, I would love to come back and coach them on this other product that I think, you know, they'd really like. So you know, that's three sentences. All of them start with I and then together we flipped them so you know, they all ultimately started with you. So here's, here's how we did it. You lead an incredible team that was so engaged and high energy today. You are, you know, part of a team that is taking the new knowledge from Google and leveraging it to help your bottom line. You will definitely benefit from this new product training that we're developing and you know, if that interests you, we'd love to come and train you on that as well. Of course, with the intention to up. So you know, we had 100% sentences that started with I and then 100% sentences that started with you. But what moves the business is what moves your career. So if you're able to woo with you over email and influence people to say yes to you to the second training or to the new product or to the partnership or to the, if it's an internal stakeholder, the fancy project that everybody cares about that matters for the business, you're going to be much more likely to advance in your career because of those honed influence skills. So that's one very specific tactic that again I share as a starter step because introvert, extrovert, born in Tokyo, born in la, you know, born in Sao Paulo, which are all very different cultures in terms of boldness. It's a great way that you can influence that doesn't require you chasing somebody down the hall and saying will you mentor me? Because you were impressed by what they said in the VP town hall.

I like that. It's also very non threatening for people. I think again to your point about cross cultural scalability and reach of that it also, you know, I'm trained, I went to graduate school for a million years, 2 million years ago in clinical psychology. And it's also very similar to, in certain flavors of psychotherapy, the, you know, the approach of communicating to a patient, you know, and influencing them in the context of that kind of empowerment as well too. So I think that's, you know, it, it's a, it's a, it's a great tool and technique in a variety of different kinds of ways therapeutically or career wise or relationship wise. I think, you know, that I want to get into our book. I think that teases up very nicely to shift into your book. But I'm also not a stalker, but a fanboy. I've got your, I subscribed to your newsletter and I just now pulled it up as you were describing that. And it's similar to what you have in your latest edition of your newsletter too, about, you know, being clear around the ask and feeling kind of moving beyond that kind of passivity which again, the thread of your, you know, being courageous around these things I think is really, really resonant. And we'll, you know, get people to sign up to your newsletter as well too at the end. But so wild courage, go after what you want and get it. I want to now maybe shift and do a deep dive in that. But as is kind of my way before we do, I want to first start off with what a few other people have had to say about it. Ginny so Daniel Pink, New York Times number one best selling author, said, quote, wild courage vividly demonstrates that success isn't just about talent or luck. It's ultimately about pushing past fear and daring to be yourself. Jenny Wood's savvy lessons will inspire you to stop seeking permission and start taking action. From Gretchen Rubin, New York Times best selling author of the Happiness Project A fresh and fearless approach to achieving your goals. This book is both a guide and a cheerleader for anyone on a mission to make things happen. Seth Godin, I'm a big fanboy of his best selling author of a number of things, but in particular this is strategy said the secret behind Ginny's powerful debut is that this is actually a book about generous action. Creating the conditions for others to get what they need takes courage. And Kim Scott, New York Times best selling author of Radical Candor, said Ginny's impact at Google is extraordinary. Now with her book, she's helping tens of thousands of people around the world. It doesn't surprise me. So boy howdy. Very high praise and well deserved. Jenny. Congratulations on your book and also being, I think A dual best seller, New York Times and Amazon. Is. Is my research correct on that?

That is. And. And USA Today, and.

Well, all right. Triple Crown. That's good. So. So any. By.

Who's counting?

Yeah, exactly. Right, exactly. So with these kinds of things, I. I'm a real big book nerd, so we might talk a little bit about back and forth about some of the mechanics of this, but any thoughts about what drove your book sales?

Oh, oh, we could.

This is. After we do this podcast number three,

we're going to talk about that. Yeah. So I will. I'm really transparent about this. And you know how I was able to hit the client climb the Mount Everest of publishing, which is the New York Times bestseller list.

Right.

And I will say it was three things. Number one, having a large newsletter. I have 70,000 people on my newsletter, and that is like your number one source of selling books. Number two, something called Bilf. Bilf Books in lieu of fee. So for the last year and a half, when I did a keynote speech, I offered the organization books instead of me taking the fee. Now, of course, the prerequisite there is that you have enough other income streams that you're able to do that. And. But I've always been a big saver and I have been really thoughtful and I don't buy bags, I don't buy, you know, handbags. I don't buy fancy shoes or fancy cars. And so I did some financial planning actually to be able to forego this keynote speaking revenue and gift books. And then the, the third thing I did was I just shamelessly and, you know, shameless is the third trait of Wild courage. I shamelessly asked people for help. Right. You know, you heard those, those people who blurbed the book. Dan Pink, Seth Godin, Kim Scott, Gretchen Rubin. Like, that was not by accident. I, I nurtured these relationships in a. In a thoughtful and mutually beneficial way over years and then asked all these big people with massive audiences for help. And I was really specific about it, too. You know, Gretchen Rubin was kind enough to include me in her newsletter, which goes out to almost 1.5 million people. And I said shamelessly. I was like, gretchen and nosy. Right. Gotten a little bit nosy also, which is another trait. I said, gretchen, could you include a selfie of us in the book? We happened to have had lunch, you know, a couple weeks prior, which also was intentional. I wanted to have that lunch before pub date so that we could have a selfie of us holding the book and I could ask her to include it when she doesn't typically, but no skin off her back to include a photo of us in the book, which, you know, just gives it a little bit more.

Sure.

So that was. That was the, you know, three of the probably 25 pronged strategy. Those are three elements that I think did help move the needle.

That's great. Good. Good to know. Thanks for sharing those. So how did you find out when it hit bestseller? Do you get a call? Do you hear something from your publisher?

Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a. It was a funny moment because it's a. I was on. I knew that I was gonna find out around 3:30pm Mountain time. I'm in Boulder, Colorado. So, you know, I mean, I've been working toward this for years, Chris. And so I was nervous about that call. And like, it is. I thought this was a half court shot at best. And. And so I was. I had a client call, pitching a keynote, pitching for the first. Meeting this client for the first time and pitching them on a keynote. And I saw the call come in at like 2:15, way earlier than I was expecting. But I ignored it because I was pitching this client and meeting them for the first time. And it's like, you know, another one of the traits is obsessed. It's about, you know, you should have the courage to push, perform, persist. And so I was in my. Jenny obsessed, want to win this deal, Want to build a good relationship. And I was like, well, I'll call them back later. And then they called back and then I got all these texts and they're like, where are you? We can't find you. And I was like, okay, I think this is good news. And I just finally, in the call, you know what this is? I'm about to find out whether I hit the New York Times or not. I gotta go. But no, I put her on mute. I put her on mute, actually. And then she watched the call unfold and she's like, I was trying to read your face. And I guess I was a little bit more kind of in shock than like, huge celebration face. And so it was a really funny moment of they were all in a conference room together or, you know, on zoom. My agent, you know, on a conference call, my agent, all my editors, you know, my chief of staff. And it was a wonderful little moment, but kind of muted by the fact, literally by the fact that I was. I found out while I was in a call with this client and then went back to the client call. I'm like, okay, so how can I help your organization feel successful?

Oh, man. And I'm guessing you got that deal too, right?

I actually don't know yet. These are really, really long sales cycles.

Okay.

And this is one that we were talking way quarters down the line. And so I think that this will turn into something very productive, probably really

distinguish yourself amongst whoever else was in the running.

She said she really enjoyed the moment and talked about it at dinner with her family.

Yeah, I can just picture.

Certainly memorable.

Yeah. When you've got this deal and this person does your introduction. So that would be great.

I know, I know.

So, again, I hate to be cliche, but the obvious question. I can't talk to you, not ask what spurred you to write the book?

Actually, a moment in 2011, on a crowded, dirty sea line in New York City on the subway, where I'm riding the subway home from work. And about 20ft away from me stands this really good looking guy, Chris. Gorgeous blue eyes, thick brown, wavy hair, the whole works. And even though I want to talk to him, something holds me back. What if he's a convicted felon? What if he's married? What if 100 people try to, you know, observe me hitting on this guy and. And I make a fool of myself? Now, I later came to realize that underneath those questions were the fears that hold so many people back because they were the same fears that oftentimes held me back in life. Fear of failure, fear of uncertainty, and fear of judgment by others. So I sit there and I do nothing as the train passes stop after stop and as life passes me by. But I make a deal with the universe. And I say, if he gets off at my stop, then I'll try to strike up a conversation with him. And if not, then c' est la vie. But you might think, okay, so he got off at your stop, but he didn't actually. He got off at the next stop. And I was like, okay, c' est la vie. And then all of a sudden, this wave of wild courage washes over me and practically pushes me out of my subway seat and off the train. And I chase him to catch up with him. I tap him on the shoulder as he's walking up the stairs, exiting Columbus Circle, 59th street in Manhattan. And I say, you're wearing Glo, so I can't tell if you're wearing a wedding ring, but I'm Jenny, you're on my subway, and I thought you were cute. Any chance I could give you my business card? And I wait for what feels like forever as he doesn't respond, thinking, oh, this was a Terrible idea. But then eventually, he takes the card, he calls the next day, we go on a date a week later, and we've now been married 11 years with two small children.

Oh, mazel tov. Congratulations. Thank you. I love that. Thank you. And did the New York Times do a piece on that, too?

Wrote about it. Yeah. And it was one of the most viral articles this reporter had written in 30 years.

Oh, my God.

It turns out people wanted permission to go after what they want.

You.

And, you know, go ahead. Go ahead.

You got the Midas touch, girl.

Well, you know, actually, I. I would. I would respectfully push back on that. I think that it is not a Midas touch.

It's.

It's just that I. Again, going back to serendipity isn't found. It's made. I made my own serendipity that day. I. I got nosy. I got insatiably curious about what this guy might be about. I got a little bit selfish, which is the courage to, you know, be your own champion. I got reckless. The courage to err on the side of action and take a calculated risk. And I think anybody is capable of that. But. But you. You know, you. Anybody listening? You might not be a subway chaser, and that is totally fine, but wherever you sit right now, there is. Is something that you want. It could be a goal, a relationship, a promotion. There is something that you want, and. And there is fear that is standing in your way. And Wild Courage is what closes the gap between what you want and what you get. And it's the set of tools that help you go after what you want and get it. So, you know, Midas touch or not, I really think this is a repeatable playbook that anybody can use to achieve more in their life and live into their own full potential while being happier, more confident, and more successful.

That's. That's well put. Okay, fair enough. So the title, Wild Courage, I. I'm intrigued by those pairings. I mean, we, you know, hear about courage, we hear about grit, we hear about these kinds of things. But then pairing wild with it, you know, gives me kind of a sensation of maybe untamed or maybe more authentic or instinctual. Could you pack, unpack, or maybe have with this? But is there anything else more to say about that, about how it would differ, what it means for you and how it differs from maybe conventional bravery, particularly maybe in a professional context? Certainly romantic is fine, too. Obviously, it works. It scales in different ways. But I. And I like that. I like the. I think it's Very curiosity grabbing as well, too. But maybe, you know, unpack that a little further for us.

Sure. Well, first of all, it was really hard for us to pick the title for two years. It was called the Chase because of how I chased John off the subway. Again, that story is the root of the book. And then at the 11th hour, someone at Penguin Random House was like, I don't think that's going to sell. People don't want to be chased. People are exhausted. You know, chasing sounds scary. And then we spent, oh, man, like, weeks and 100 opinions and 75 different title options. And then once it was actually my editor and I who were on a call, just the two of us, which was really special because there were so many cooks in the kitchen at that point that. But she, you know, obviously was my. My co captain on this book. And so it was really special that together we came up with this. It was her idea, actually. And, you know, the wild piece, which is different than just regular courage, is the fact that this book is about reclaiming nine traits that create the invisible bars of a cage that keep you small, that keep you quiet, that keep you following instead of leading, that keep you on the subway, that keep you saying, oh, well, I'm the girl, so I should be pursued. And I'll just sit here looking pretty and say nothing and keep my mouth shut. But, you know, the wild courage is both the element of, like, ye. It was pretty wild to get off that subway that day and ask this stranger for, you know, if I could give you my business. Give him my business card. But it really is also these nine traits that, you know, I want people to reclaim and. And understand that if used in a sane and savvy way, they can. They can supercharge your success. And because I've teed it up a few times now, I'll just share those traits. They're weird, selfish, shameless, obsessed, nosy, manipulative. That's a spicy one. Brutal, reckless, and bossy. And, you know, the average. At first blush, those sound like pretty wild things for me to be encouraging people to be. So that's the wild piece.

I like that. So with that aspect of it, then I think it also maybe speaks a little bit to. We can dig into this. I do want to kind of unpack each one of those chapters, so put another pin in that, too. But, you know, the whole imposter syndrome kind of thing, you know, kind of comes to mind as well. Well, too. So I. I want to talk nerd out just a little bit more and Scratch my, my book nerd itch. But, and I want to tell people who haven't had a chance to pick up your book yet, I really like your design with it in the formatting. So like, for example, like page two, you have Cut to the Chase. I have never seen in the bazillion books I've read a Cut to the Chase section and right after Table of Contents. And you know, it's, it's just so clever. It makes it, I mean, it's, it's some, some books seems like they should be magazines and other books, you know, seem like they should be encyclopedias, but yours is kind of in a very nice sweet spot of being user reader friendly and you even make it more accessible to people who might, you know, maybe be a little, you know, anxious about, you know, getting into this or whatever. But the Cut to the Chase I think is just brilliant. So bravo for that.

I'm so happy you're bringing that up. First of all, it's not quite as clever as it initially was because it was, was super, super cool when the book was called the Chase and then the Chase, but we kept it anyway because it still worked. But yeah, I love that you're bringing that up because we wanted to organize the book with these nine traits because it was just such a fun, different sizzly package. But it doesn't really. One of the headwinds is it's not totally clear what the book is about and we wanted to send a signal right at the outset of the book of what you're going to get. So, for example, in Cut to the Chase, it's, you know, boost your confidence at work. Page 24, tackle imposter syndrome, page 60, communicate with conviction, page 68, avoid burnout, page 104, self promote tastefully, et cetera. And that was so important because we didn't want people to feel like they were walking into the wrong bar right when they opened this book. Like Wild Courage could be about taking a nature shower and go, you know, go jump off a cliff, you know, for the adrenaline. So we had to be really clear up front that this is about personal and professional development. And here's what you, you're actually going to get out of it because Wild Courage, go after what you want and get it. It could be, it's not, it's not quite as descriptive as some of the other titles we played around with. So we thought this Cut to the Chase section did a lot of heavy lifting.

I agree. I feel it's very engaging for readers. You Know, I mean, I think everyone, other than buying something sight unseen off Amazon or something, if you go into a bookstore and you thumb your book, I think that's very engaging, you know, to be able to see that. And also the, you know, the laying out of things you got. You know, another big thing that I love is your welcome kit. It gives readers resources of exact scripts and templates. You are, you are the maven of wording. I mean, like, you talked about the, the woo with you kind of thing. You're also good at branding these things as well, too. But you give very specific. There's no vagaries. There's no, you know, kind of, you know, grayness. Well, gosh, how would that, how would I actually say this or, you know, in my circumstance, I. That doesn't work or I can't figure out. I mean, you, you are almost like a, you know, copy and paste kind of of coach to be able to get those, you know, with templates and checklists and tools. And I'm just a big fan. I'm a nut for those kinds of things. And I think it's, you know, it's also helpful for like, segmenting your book's content as well, too, which, again, just. Thank you. Yeah. Makes a very light lift for the readers and very engaging and very educational. So thank you. Well, go ahead.

There is, yeah, I was gonna say there was stuff that just didn't, didn't serve. It didn't fit well in a book. But I wanted people to have the materials. I wanted them to be able to download my free guide to get promoted. Right. Which I couldn't go into all the details of in the book. And it has spreadsheets you can copy and paste. It has slides you can bring to your manager. It saves you the time of designing the slides. And so, you know, and that's also available to anybody listening@it'sjennywood.com getpromoted but, you know, something like a great slide to have if you want to influence in a meeting with your VP and that. I call that the grab slide, Grab goal request Action benefit. What's. What's the goal of what you're trying to accomplish? Maybe it's increasing music subscription subscribers by 20%. You know, what is the request? You want $50,000 in budget. What is the action? You know, you've already made this much progress on customer TSAT, you know, Q3 to Q4. And what's the benefit if we can get this $50,000 and increase subscribers 20%, then, you know, we're going to have X additional revenue to invest in AI for the company. I don't know, let's say you're at like a Spotify company or something. So that grab opening slide, like it didn't really fit in the book because we couldn't, we didn't want to show the slide and we wanted them to be able to copy and paste it and use it in their own VP meeting. So I'm so glad to be able to offer those resources directly in the book. And I will say, because the, the second trait of the of wild courage is selfish. There was a selfish element there too. I have all this stuff that I am building as a business in terms of keynotes and coaching and consulting and licensing my content, etc. And I have this newsletter. I wanted to be able to get people off of the page and into my ecosystem so that they could learn more, so I could offer more value and frankly so that I could make additional money. So I think that people oftentimes don't or don't feel comfortable saying, here's what's in it for me in the way I created this book. But that was a bit of a selfish move as well to both add value but also be able to keep people engaged and potentially lifelong customers.

Right. Yeah, I totally get it. I think that's really fair. And I would just also say too, you are having a business motive and all that. I mean, people don't write books to just totally give them away. But the other aspect of it is you're still very generous. I mean, the things that you provide for free are, are high, high quality. I mean, there's lots of people. I mean, there's, you know, again, it's kind of a cliched thing for a lot of others, you know, they'll provide some little, you know, clickbaity kind of thing and it creates a funnel and then people get, you know, three steps down into it and then all of a sudden there's this new humongous paywall and, you know, not so sure about things. But yours, you know, again, I think is just, you know, really foundational and grounded in very good, high quality, you know, kinds of content. So. And I could see really people wanting to have you come give talks and, you know, know, hire you as a coach and do those kinds of things as well. So. All right, so let's dig into the content you mentioned, the nine traits just now and maybe like, I guess, you know, I really like how you got to go back to being a nerd. I can't stop myself.

I love it. Can you tell I'm nerding out right there with you?

So, yes, two peas in a pod. So you redefine the trait like I can of talked about in the intro at the start of each chapter and subsequently every time you use the redefined version, it's in bold, all caps, which I think Jenny is very clever and it's very helpful because, you know, people's default of oh, bossy or oh, reckless or oh, whatever it is, they, you know, we default to the negative of it. But then once it's in that bold all cap, it's like, oh, yeah, this. Yeah, what they say about reckless. Let me thumb back to chapter eight and see how that, you know, could apply here. So. And then likewise, you close the circle of each chapter has an ending summary with bullet points in gray halftone, which are also very helpful. So I don't want to necessarily deconstruct every single chapter in a row, but maybe I can start off with, of these nine, in your experience, do you see that people struggle with a certain one the most, or a couple of them the most? What's the most difficult for applying these things in the Ginny Woodsian kind of way for good and not evil?

I think that shameless is a hard one for people. And I define shameless as the courage to find your swagger, because audacity or shamelessness is a survival skill. And so we oftentimes just underplay our skills at work or we think our work's gonna speak for itself. The biggest lie you've ever been told in your career is just keep your head down, your work's gonna speak for itself. But you know, when you're able to push past that discomfort of talking about your wins and you're not bragging, you're sharing an opportunity for other people to collaborate with you, for the business to be advanced. I was in a meeting once where someone piped up and said, you know, I have a shame. This is a shameless plug. But I created this spreadsheet and I'll pop it in the chat. And everyone, like, the emojis exploded on this video call and the comments were like, oh, my gosh, this is going to save me, me 30 minutes every time I have to do this analysis and put together this proposal for a client. And it's like, what's the shame in that? Why was that a shameless plug? You know, why couldn't we just take pride? Why couldn't this person take pride in her work and say, I created this resource. I'm really proud of it and I think it's going to help you a lot. Not only does that take kind of the. It changes the vibe. Like, I then would see that person as a more successful future leader. I don't like as a Google execration, Zach, I don't want to, I don't want to promote people who are insecure, who are unsure of themselves, who aren't, you know, future leaders have to make tough calls. They have to talk about their team wins. It's, It's a prerequisite. And so even if you're giving those insecure vibes, you're, you're setting yourself up for, for fewer opportunities from your senior leadership. Of course, this isn't a corporate environment, but the same thing can apply anywhere. In fact, you know, I got this text from one of my newsletter editors recently, and. No, I think it was yesterday. And let me see if I can find it. I will read it verbatim. Maybe. Maybe I will. Let's see if I can find it. Okay, this is real, real time scrolling.

This is a scoop. You heard it here first, folks.

I think it was a joint thread and that's why I can't find it. Okay. No, I can't find it. Okay, basically, I had cut something. I'd said that there were like seven examples in the newsletter and I had cut it down to five. And she wrote, I thought I had. And she wrote back, hey, Jenny, I think I missed one of the two cuts you made to the seven, bringing the list down to five. I see that you say you want it to be 5, but I only see you've cut one of the seven examples. I think I probably missed it, so could you please remind me which one that is? And I was like, well, wait a second, we both know that I just forgot to cut that other one. It's like when someone says, oh, I think I missed the attachment, you know, or like, it's like, no, you forgot the attachment, just said you forgot to attach it. And I feel like now this is a total tangent from that. A rabbit hole of shameless. But it's like she was, it was. She is a very confident person. And yet she almost felt like she had to apologize, make it seem like it was her fault, really soften the messaging, you know, beat around the bush, make me feel better when she really should have said, you said you cut two, but you only cut one. What is the other one you meant to cut, Jenny? And so, and maybe now I'm bleeding a Little bit into the brutal trait, which is the courage to be clear. And it's the power of no. Because people pleasing pleases no one and keeps you small. Brutality is cleaner, more effective and far kinder. So cut through the bull and spare everyone's time, energy and attention. She wasn't being brutal to me in that moment. And the best leaders, the most effective people who are going to grow in their career from individual contributor to manager to senior leader to VP to C suite, are the ones who are able to be extremely clear in their messaging and not, you know, sit down for a performance conversation and say, well, we've got some things that are going well and some things that are aren't, like no. Within the first 90 seconds. Tell me my score. Out of the five point score we're graded on at this company, what did I get? Don't make me sit around like, be brutal, even if it's hard news. And so this is the kind of stuff that I think starts to set people apart in their career. Their ability to be shameless and to confidently talk about their work in a way that helps others and doesn't take away from anybody. Their ability to be brutal and to embrace the power of clear direct messaging or requests of people.

Yeah, I think there's a misunderstanding of thinking brutal is being mean. And in the example you gave, there's nothing mean at all about it. It was just, you know, factual and clarifying. So I like that. Do you feel that there's any hierarchical kind of thing of these nine, is, is one more important than another or does it depend on, on circumstance or they all kind of. It just really does depend on, you know, situational issues.

Are you asking me to pick my favorite child?

Well, out of, out of, out of your litter of nine? Yeah,

it depends. It is situational. It depends on the day. You know, today, today reckless is really speaking to me and that is the courage to err on the side of action. You know, better to learn from your mistakes than waste time predicting the consequences of, of every decision. Think fast and fearless and if you're on the fence, do it. And, you know, making this book successful, making my career at Google successful, required a ton of recklessness. I mean, go back to all the ins and outs I just talked about with building that own your career program. I begged forgiveness, not permission. I never went to HR and legal and said, hey, I want to start this program, you know, in the comms team and said, you know, what would it take? And you know, who would I need to get on board and, and whose toes am I gonna be stepping on? No, I got reckless. Better to put something out there and you know, maybe it succeeds, maybe it fails, but rather than running it up the flagpole of every possible decision maker only for it to die in committee. No way, Jose. So, you know, I got reckless with that. I got reckless in how I launched this book. I asked at least 100 people to support it, right? And sometimes you don't get the outcome you want. There was one really well known author, really well respected. If I said the name, everybody would know this person in particular, who I just had a deep relationship with, a deep friendship with, and was a mentor of mine. And I asked this person to promote the book in their newsletter. And instead of saying a polite, you know, sorry, I don't do that, I get asked too frequently. They actually told me they were offended by the ask and they cut off the friendship with me. And you know, and it's, it was a really, really tough moment and I lost a lot of sleep over it. This was just a couple days before pub date, so it was, was a punch in the gut, especially because of how well I, how much I respect this person. However, the reason I share this in when I encourage people to be reckless is because, Chris, if that moment stopped me from being bold in the future or asking any of the other 99 authors and influencers who ultimately did say yes, or maybe some gave a polite no, but if that had, if that moment had stopped me from taking risks, from erring on the side of action, from, you know, being wildly courageous and a bit out there, and in just asking for help, then I would never achieve the success that this book. I would have never achieved the success that this book has already achieved just 10 weeks into its life. And so that is recklessness, that is understanding that you are going to have some wins, you're going to have some losses, and. But failure is just data. Maybe I asked this person in the wrong way. Maybe this was the one person I shouldn't have asked. Maybe, you know, I wasn't empathetic enough to their situation. But fear adds friction, slowing your progress without actually helping you minimize risk. So when you're living in fear, and when that fear is what stops you from being reckless or taking bold action or making a request, then you're limiting your full potential.

Yeah, gotcha it. Well, how about the flip side of that question? Is there a trait that's hardest for you or again, is it a depends kind of situation? Personally,

the hardest for me, I tend to overthink which also would fall into reckless a little bit as well. Because I say think fast and fearless. If you're on the fence, do it. So I am like analysis, paralysis person. And Barry Schwartz, who's a psychologist and a professor at Swarthmore University, has this wonderful body of work called, called the Paradox of Choice. And he talks about how, you know, the more choices you have, the less happy you are with your decision and the less likely you are to make one. It's probably the best TED talk out there. It's 19 minutes. If you want to link to that in the show notes.

Okay.

But he's got this other, this other really interesting research that is about, I tie it to Obsessed, and I will say one of the harder traits for me is obsessed because of the trait trap of obsessed. Now, we haven't talked about trait traps yet, but trait traps are when you take a trait too far, when obsession becomes workaholism or, you know, nosy becomes inappropriate surveillance. Right? Or weird becomes saying something outlandish or obnoxious that is rude to people. Right. Or could harm people. So the trait trap in Obsessed gets me often because I am so passionate and I am a workaholic and I am someone who likes to get an idea and run with it. And I can really pour myself into my work sometimes leaving behind my husband and my kids and my friendships. And that is something that I've had to work through as I have put this work into the world, as I've created my 9 to 5 at Google to run a 247 as an entrepreneur in an eat what you kill environment. And, and the reason this ties to Barry Schwartz's other body of work is because he has this other research about maximizers and satisficers. And if you don't want to get caught in the trait trap of obsessed, which is taking that trait too far and, you know, taking it, any endeavor, any passion, any project, any work, you know, situation too far where you grind yourself into a workaholic pulp. If you want to avoid that trait trap, being mindful of maximizers versus satisficers can serve you well. Maximizers, the research suggests guests get slightly better results, but they're way less happy. CHRIS Satisficers know when to be a 7 out of 10, when to be a 10 out of 10 and when to be a 3 out of 10 on any given endeavor, partnership, project, et cetera. So for me, what's been hardest is tapping into when I can be a satisficer versus always striving to be a maximizer on any given email, on any given project. And that's hard work for me. Really, really hard work for me.

Me.

And vacation helps. I just spent the week with my parents and kids and husband in Mexico and it was a great time to zoom out and think, well, how much money do I really need to make a year? Is it a half a million, like I've been kind of, I think, falsely telling myself, or is it significantly less than that? And you know, do I want to pull a little bit from interest each year where I always said no, because if you pull from interest, then you don't get the benefit of compound interest. But what if I do consider some distributions on my investments as income and use that to be a satisficer on a little bit more in my business business for the benefit of memory dividends with my children. And you know, maybe I don't, maybe I don't leave my kids a massive legacy of generational wealth, but maybe if I die with zero, I'm leaving behind this really wonderful experience of more time with my family.

That sounds very, very.

We just, we just took a left turn there.

No, that's good. No, no, no, not at all. No, I think that's very healthy. I think a lot of people struggle with those kinds of things as well. And I think it's, you know, it takes, can take wild courage to be able to face up to those kinds of aspects as well too. And you know, you've got enough of an analytical mind, it seems, you know, to be able to, you know, very soberly, you know, clearly look at these kinds of things and, and then you're in a, you know, very fortunate position to be able to make decisions and choices around those things in a way that's very clear eyed and, and you know, takes into the, we were talking about situations, you know, the situation of being a mom and having a family and spending those kinds of times because as the kids get older, those times will eventually start to shift and change once adulthood hits for them. So I totally get that. I think a lot of myself included, historically, those are kinds of things that you had to struggle with and deal with. And it's nice to then consider the application of your principles in those areas as well too, because I think as we said or at least alluded to earlier in our conversation, these are things that are, aren't limited to work, you know, these are, or a certain kind of work, you know, corporate work or whatever. No, it's, it's entrepreneurs, it's parents, it's it's spouses, etc. So yeah, I, as I mentioned, I like a lot of your, what I call like, you know, little branding kinds of things. I in the trait traps I like. And just again, shout out to your book, you've got those, you know, at the end of each chapter, which I think is super helpful. Again, conceptualizing and understanding. One of the other things I'd like you to talk about is your rock Chalk Talk walk method. Can you tell us about that and the role it plays in maybe goal setting and work? Or like we've just now talked about with, with personal life? Sure.

It was kind of an aha moment at the end of the book, at the end of writing the book where my agent read it. She's like, jenny, this is all a book about going after big things in life and achieving them. But you don't really talk about how to set a goal or how do you decide what it is that you want in life? And so I was like, okay, point taken. Clearly amiss. And so this was one of the last elements we added to the book. And this is basically goal setting in a nutshell. It's Rock Chalk Talk Walk. So as you think about what it is that you want to achieve, is it that you want to leave your company to be an entrepreneur? Do you want to climb the ladder and make it to C Suite by 45? Do you want to be a Grammy winning musician on tour? Right. Like not just oh, I want to learn guitar, but like setting a big rock, like some big thing that takes effort and energy to push up the hill. But that's worthwhile and it makes life worth living. So for me, my rock was I want to sell 15,000 US hardcover copies of Wild Courage by March 25, 2025. Chalk as you write it down. I literally we're audio only, but I am pulling a piece of paper off of my that I've taped to my monitor that says just that sell 15,000 US hardcover copies of Wild Courage by 3:25.25. Talk is and so chalk is literally writing it down because there's something that you engage called implementation intentions. And there's research on this that where if you write it down, you're much more likely to achieve your goal. And then talk is saying it out loud. And that is not in a woo woo manifesty kind of way. That is not my vibe, as I'm sure you can already tell. But you know, I would go on a lot of podcasts prior to the book coming out and I'd Say, I have a goal to sell 15,000 US hardcover copies. And I just. For people who aren't familiar with the publishing space, that is an outlandish number. It is outlandish. It's very hard to sell books. Very interesting. It's hard to sell hardcover. But. And I was putting this massive number out there, and I think one thing that I had to recognize was if you put a big goal out there, if you say it out loud, if you talk and you say your goal and you miss it, you don't achieve it. People might think you're a. Gulp. Human. That's it.

That's it.

That's the worst case scenario. But best case scenario, they're inspired by you. They want to connect you to other people. They feel jazzed about you. You know, they want to help promote their podcast episode more. Because they're like, oh, wow, this person means business. This isn't some rinky dinky book that she's putting out. And again, to put that 15,000 number in context, there are 37 million books on Amazon. The bottom 50%. I'm going to, I'm going to do a pop quiz, Chris. There's no wrong answer. The bottom 50% of Amazon, of books on Amazon, how many per book do you think they sell a year?

I bet 10, two.

Okay, but you had a very good guess, right? Most people are like, oh, I don't know, 3,000. So you know, 15,000 in one week is a lot. And then, so we're, you know, that's, that's rock chalk talk. The talk is about putting it out there shamelessly, getting people on board to help you. And then walk is walk the walk. What is one small thing you can do today that can advance that goal? So in my case, I knew that I wasn't going to sell these books one at a time. I was going to have to sell them, you know, 300, 500 at a time. So I emailed 300 executives at companies around the world and said, would you like to buy two to 300 copies of Wild Courage? And I'd be happy to come in and do a pro bono 20 minute fireside, you know, Q and A. And so that was one small, one small step I took to really put this into action. And that's rock chalk talk. Walk goal setting in a nutshell. And it applies to anything. It could be, it could be losing 20 pounds. And then your wok is you swap the big dishes in your kitchen for little dishes. You know, that's one small step to achieve the rock so it can really apply to anything.

That's great. Yeah, I love that. And it's, you know, the accountability aspect of it. The. I hadn't thought about it in the context of what you described, too, of the support that you can get from that, you know, too, as well, and literally material kind of support, you know, that people have actionable kinds of things as opposed to. To, you know, you're in our prayers, Jenny. You know, it's like, we'll write a check, Jenny. Much, much more tangible. So. Yeah. All right, good. Well, that tees me up then. You talk about power assets. Can you talk about what they are and maybe how readers can discover what theirs are and use them to their advantage?

Yeah. So power assets are your strengths, your talents, your. Your skills that you bring to the table. And it's so critical to know these because. Because if people don't know what you stand for, they don't know how to talk about you behind closed doors when your higher ups are debating who's going to get the big project and who's going to get promoted and who's going to do the, you know, the paternity leave, backfill and people. I think it's a good example of where people can tap into being a little bit uncomfortable because it's almost an elevator pitch. You know, I say my three power assets are people, leadership, stakeholder influence, and building things from startup to scale. And I have those memorized. I spent time writing down what did I love to do as a kid? What. What was I getting good feedback about in college? What do I enjoy day to day when I go in and I made a list of maybe 20 things that I felt like I was good at and liked doing and people thought I was good at. And then I narrowed it down to maybe five, and then I brought it to my boss and to some mentors and sponsors and said, hey, what do you think about these? How would you tweak these? And so it's a very real, tangible way you can. You can, you know, share your strengths with the world. And I would say in a way that I would call shameless, you're also getting obsessed about understanding. Like, how do you hone into what it is that that makes you special? It's brutal. You're saying three, not 20. Right? And so I want to share one example. I'm actually looking in the cut to the Chase section in the books. I have a great example I want to share. Okay, page 62, folks. We're going to page 62.

I got got My hymnal right here beside me here. So let me catch up. All right.

And, and so somebody, Martina, who was just a superstar who I worked with, she came to me and she said her power assets were communication, organization and supporting others on launches. Now I, I like these, okay? But I knew there was opportunity to improve. Why? Because communication, organization and supporting others on launches are all people skills. They all sound a little bit soft. And we are talking about top talent here with Martina. So we tweaked them a little bit and I explained to her, I want your power portfolio to have a mix of business skills and people skills, just like your financial portfolio should have a mix of assets of stocks and bonds. Right.

Love it.

And so we shifted her three power assets to go from communication to executive communication. That's stronger right there. There. From organization, which sounds very weak, to project and program management. And from supporting others on launches, again sounds very kind of diminished to go to market strategy because she was launching products, she was analyzing the market, she was, you know, identifying addressable market and running models to address whether we should launch something or not. So really just in that wording, we took her from three kind of soft sounding, people focused skills skills to a very powerful, well to not be redundant power portfolio that had a mix of power assets that were both people skills and business skills. And I just think it became much stronger.

You are a maestro. That is so good. Again, that's what gives me the goosebumps about your work and your book. So excellent. So also then you suggest that readers maybe this is a little bit similar to this or really the yin to the yang, to watermark their work, describe what that is and tell us why it's important.

Well, unlike rock chalk talk walk that we put at the very last minute, this was one section that I actually wanted to cut. And I'm so glad you're bringing it up because something happened with my editor at the 11th hour. I was like, we can't cut this. We've got to keep this in the book. And watermarking your work is, is. It comes down to visibility, but in a different way. People think of visibility as like, I have to raise my hand in the town hall and ask a question. I make sure that I'm speaking up in every meeting of my seven peers. And by the way, do those things absolutely do those things. Be visible, be heard, be shameless, be selfish, ask the questions, get known. Sit next to the VP in the, in the big meeting, right? Talk to them as you're walking out of the room. But watermarking is visibility in a much more subtle way. And that's if you're doing a presentation in your organization, don't have that first slide. Just say Q2 quarterly business review. Put your damn name on it. And the names of all the people who worked on it and your email address. Make it easy for people to find you. I mean, think about a house in your neighborhood that's going through a remodel. There's a sign on the front of the yard that says, you know, so and so architecture firm. And that's helpful to you driving by. If you're thinking about remodeling your house, who wants to go on Google and find random subcontractors, right? Like, go with the one that your neighbor's using. They probably vetted seven people. Let them save you the work. So when you're in a meeting and you're delivering phenomenal work, A, that deck might get shared to 30 other people and might make its way up the chain. Like, you want people to be able to find you. You also don't want to distract people while you're presenting and have them go into the meeting, invite and find your name. And, oh, they can't even find your name because you're dialing in from a conference room and they didn't catch your name when you maybe did or did not say it. And they literally don't know who you are when you're delivering that awesome work. And they might want to engage you on another project. So the reason, the thing that happened, my editor, Lydia, is she had put together this analysis on book covers and she watermarked it. She put her name, her picture, her contact info, her role, her division, things that not everyone would know. It made its way up to the top of Penguin Random House. And there she was, Lydia Yachty branded on all of that great work. And so that is what watermarking is. And I'm so thrilled you brought it up as something that stood out to you, which justifies us having kept it in when I wanted to cut it.

Well, it seems like I also just have to say, kind of the meta aspect thread I'm hearing throughout our conversation is that you just had a wonderful working relationship with. Was it Lydia? Is that your editor?

Oh, my gosh. She's the most special person in the world.

Good for you. That can be. Makes such a difference of, you know, book writing. I mean, I love. It's sort of funny. I love writing and it has to be something that I am motivated to write. You know, I'd have Writer's block if someone gave me an assignment, but if it's something that itch, I need to scrape, scratch, it's a totally different story. But I, you know, I've had, I've published with a variety of different houses and when you hit that kind of kismet with someone that, you know, you've got this great, you know, kind of Genesis quoi or something, you know, with them where you can, you know, they read your mind and you finish their sentence kind of thing. And it sounds, you know, just good for you that you had, had that in Lydia, because those are, is oftentimes, too oftentimes, you know, I think rare experiences. I think, think it obviously, you know, that collaboration, if you will, has resulted in such a, you know, best seller across, you know, three platforms. So that's, that's awesome. That's, that's fantastic. How did, how did you get to your publisher and how did you get to Lydia?

Well, here you go. What a, What a phenomenal way to share another one of Lydia's strengths. And this would fall under the manipulative trait, which is the courage to build influence through empathy and build lasting relationships. Because whether yourself selling a product, an idea, or yourself, the ability to win friends, allies and supporters is all about mutual benefit. So figure out what people want and go get it for them. Chris Lydia was chasing me for a year before I even had a book proposal ready to go. So I think by the time I had a certain number of followers on LinkedIn, I, you know, I'm, I'm just under 100,000, so I must have had way fewer at that point. Or maybe she'd heard about me from an aid from my agent, Lisa. That's probably what happened. They probably had coffee and then Lydia, you know, tapped in her into her ability to manipulate a situation. We're not talking about manipulation in harming someone, right, or deceiving. She manipulated the situation by emailing me immediately after coffee or whatever it was that she, you know, found out about me and saying, hey, Jenny, I've just learned about your work. I think it's fantastic. It's fresh, it's different. I love that your newsletter is called Big Small Things, because these are these small observations that, you know, really can have big impact. Like, I think that's why I wanted to cut the watermark example. I'm like, this is so obvious. But then I was like, no, not everybody does this. It's not that obvious. And she said, you know, I love that these are big, small things. Tapped my ego A little bit complimented specific things I'd written about, which is another manipulation tactic. If you want to influence someone, tell them you like their damn stuff. Right? Like, I work hard on this and it's all free.

Yeah.

I've got a full time job at Google. Like, tell me that what I'm putting out in the world is helpful on LinkedIn. And then by the time we got to pitching the book to publishers, there were eight publishers who were interested. All the biggies, Simon and Schuster, Harper Business, Penguin Random House. So we had everybody interested. And. But I knew, like, I was just Lydia all the way. Lydia, Lydia, Lydia. This person had built a relationship with me. And think about how this applies to promotions things. Think about how it applies to getting the job right. Like build these relationships before it's go time. By the time it was go time and there were eight people who wanted to enter an auction for my book. Lydia had my heart and, and so they preempted, which means that they made an offer to take it off the table to avoid an auction. The way publishing works is any publishers that are interested have the opportunity to bid on the book. And so a preempt takes it off the table. But what I was foregoing was knowing how much more money could I potentially get for this book if we go to auction now, sometimes you get more, sometimes you get less, right? Sometimes you get less. So I, but, but I was willing to, to take less to work with Lydia. And another thing she did that was manipulative is I have a specific tool called Warm the Room with positive energy. And Lydia is so positive and so motivating. The example of that is when we were struggling with those 75 titles that I referenced before rather than. And we were stressed out, Chris. Like, we really had been just like, oh my gosh, we need a title. Everything was getting delayed. Getting it up on Amazon was delayed. And you want that flywheel working for you with the algorithm. And so we were just really frustrated. But Lydia's positive energy kept me excited and motivated. And every time she sent me six new titles, rather than saying, like, here are six more, let me know what you think. She used positive language like, Jenny, we're so close, we're nearly there. And all the effort we're putting into nailing this title is going to pay off over the next 30 years. Here are six more I'm jazzed about. And I particularly love numbers three and five. Like that is a manipulative tactic. She's warming the room with positive energy to keep me motivated because a Motivated author is a better offer. And a motivated employee is a better employee. A motivated boss is a better boss.

Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. Excellent examples. My gosh. Wow. So, okay, so I know we're kind of getting past the hour, but are you good for time for a couple more quickies maybe?

I mean, I could do seven more days of this. I don't know if your audience wants that.

All right, I'm sure they do.

Can we just do the zucchini episode right now?

Yeah, that's right. Jump ahead. So you just now mentioned this, but tell us about big small things.

Sure. Well, this is my newsletter and I tee up a problem that you might be experiencing. It could either be a personal development or professional development situation. It could be imposter syndrome. It could be trying to get promoted. It could be asking for a raise. It could be navigating a negotiation. So I tee up a problem and then I give a very specific tactic. Here's what to say. Here's the script. Here's my template, here's my tool. Tool that you can take for free and use it. And then I wrap it up with how this helps you get what you want. And, and that is, that is big small things. So. And I'd love to have anybody come join me over there. And you can. And you also get a free, like you were saying, very high value resource just by signing up. If you go to itsjennywood.com sayno. That's something we haven't even talked about. But part of being brutal is the power of pushing back thoughtfully in a way that's not a jerk. So it's jennywood.com SayNo gives you eight tips, scripts and tools to say no to projects, favors and requests without looking like a jerk.

That's great. Good. Yeah, I love those kinds of scripts too. And literally, I will take, you know, content from you. I know Tim Ferriss has got some good ways to deal with that as well too. And I just, I put them in a word doc and you know, and I sort of have variations if there's things and I'm of kind. Kind of. We'll see. Maybe. And needs a couple of other things to maybe make it work for me or whatever, but it's just handy to have those in your back pocket, especially just to maintain your productivity and not be overwhelmed with asks and to always have that policy and stuff. So. Okay.

Definitely, definitely.

So a theme we explore on this podcast is the concept of big surprise, living a life in full. So beyond your career success, what does it mean to you how do your experiences, like as a pilot inform your broader philosophy on life or risk or pursuing passions or zucchini bread recipes? Jenny,

the fact that you're bringing up pilot is so poignant because when I'm flying, I am more present than in any other activity I do at any point in my life. I can't be distracted by my phone. I can't be multitasking, tasking like I do during my kids bedtime when I should be fully focused on them and reading bedtime stories. I can't be, you know, worrying about what I'm going to say back on that client pitch and how to price my keynote. You know, since people are telling me to raise your prices, should I raise them, should I not raise them? Not that I fit the New York Times. I just have to be fully focused on the traffic around me. That's the other airplanes, it's called traffic in the sky. I guess also on the road, you know, on the altimeter on are my flaps at 10 degrees, 20 degrees, 30 degrees, you know, what do I need? What radio call do I need to be making on the avionics? So it just, there is no place else I can be except for in that plane, in my body, in the sky. And it is just absolutely incredible. So that's part of living a full life for me.

That's great. And well, okay, what about the zucchini recipes?

Well, I, I, I, I wish I had more time to cook these days, but that is so first of all, no chocolate chips.

No chocolate chips. Good to know. Good to know.

That is controversial, but I, I'm not one to pull any punches.

That's kind of a dividing thing.

I'm gonna have the wild courage to say no chocolate chips. Yes, walnuts.

Okay.

Yes, walnuts. I like the crunch. I'm not a big chocolate person. I don't love the sweet and extra zucchini. Extra fine. And don't overcook it.

Got it. Okay. Good, good. Those will all be good tips. I don't know if they'll make the show notes, but those are all good tips. So, so as we wind up, I'm just curious, is there someone that you want to give a shout out to? You don't have to do, you know, go by name, but is there someone who's influenced you or your work the most or been a mentor to you that's helped, you know, guide this trajectory and flight path for you?

I'm going to say my dad right now just because of this trip to Mexico and I'll be very specific. You know, you'd think your parents put pressure on you and like, Jenny, why would you leave this stable Google job as the breadwinner for your family and you're entering your prime earning years, right? It's like, I'm 45, you know, got this really, really stable biweekly paycheck. And my dad was actually just the opposite. And not only did he encourage me to leave and pursue this very reckless entrepreneurial, you know, endeavor, in some ways I left an exact tech job to be a starving artist because it's not easy to make money on a book. Not only did he encourage that, he also has just encouraged me to think differently about this die with zero concept and what do I really need to make and how much do I want to push myself, given that by the time your kids leave for college, you will have spent 90% of the time you will ever spend with them. And, you know, he really pushed me last week on are you pushing yourself too hard, Jenny? Are you being a maximizer in too many things? Are you too obsessed? Are you too shameless? Are you falling into too many trait traps? Are you being brutal enough right, about what is important right now and how much money you actually do need to make to live a happy, fulfilled life where you're a little bit better balanced than you ever have been in the last two decades? Because I have not been balanced in the last two decades. I have seen my kids very little and I have really given my life to Google and now I see myself giving it to the book. But now I have a choice. Not that I didn't have a choice at Google, right? But now I am my own boss and I say yes and no to travel and I can determine my prices and I can determine where I spend my time. And do I want to do more executive coaching, which keeps me on the plane less because I want to do more keynotes, which is a very high number per hour, you know, revenue per hour, but, you know, takes a full day away from my family.

Right.

And so just tapping into the fact that I'm now high net freedom, but really deeply taking advantage of that versus versus not leveraging that freedom is what my dad was pushing me on last week in Mexico. And I'm deeply grateful for that.

That's great. Sounds like he read your book.

He did. He had a hard time reading the first half because he's like, I just couldn't enjoy it because I was reading it. So not critically, but like, he's like, I wasn't Reading it in the right way. And he tends to be like, he does not pull punches.

Yeah.

And so I was like holding my breath as he read it and then he's like, but then the second half, I just read read it to enjoy it. And I was like, oh, yeah, that's much better. And I get that when I read friends books. I can't like, I can't really read nonfiction. I'm sure you can't either because I read it so analytically.

Right.

As opposed to learn.

Yeah, exactly. That's great. Well, Jenny, we've covered a lot of territory. Is there anything that we've missed or anything that you'd like to add before you wrap up?

I mean, just, I think the theme here is that action not thinking provides clarity. Right. Like everything I talk about is action not based. You know, getting off the subway, asking for the raise, being the editor who chases the author and says, I love your work a year before the book is, you know, is put on the market. Action not thinking provides clarity. So if you are one of the people who get stuck in analysis paralysis, who's always thinking about the pro cons, who wants to perfect the website before you start that entrepreneurial endeavor and make sure you've got the perfect hue of yellow and the perfect font size. Like, take action. Go. Go ask three people if you can consult for them in a little mini project for 300 bucks. Action not thinking provides clarity whether you're trying to achieve the next promotion, trying to launch a new business, trying to get a first date. So keep that in mind. And that's what spurs the wild courage because it helps you get over that fear. The fear of uncertainty, the fear of failure, and the fear of judgment by others. Just, just, just go do it. Just go do something to get you started on whatever goal you want to achieve.

Achieve. Well, that is certainly a great way to have listeners live their life in full as well too. So that's great. So I'll put in the show notes, but some people listen to this in their car so they can't write it down or they are on a run or what have you. But what are some of the best ways that listeners can learn more? Connect, of course, get your book, etc. Get on your mailing list.

Yeah, it's jennywood.com newsletter is the mailing list. I am on all the socials if you, if you. It's actually my maiden name on LinkedIn which is Illis. Jenny Illis I l l E S. But you can find me. I'm sure, if you Google Jenny Wood on LinkedIn very easily. And the book is available anywhere. Books are sold in hard copy. Audiobook. I read it myself, which was a lot of fun. Everyone said it would be a terrible experience. I loved it. And ebook, of course. So yeah, that's lots of ways to get the book.

I know doing an audiobook, audiobook, you know, the author doing it can be just an arduous kind of thing. But I've done little excerpt y kinds of things and I can't even get through a chapter without going. You know, I'd say it this way now, you know, how true to the book do we have to be? So bravo for you for doing that. And I think it's wonderful for readers because. Or listeners, I guess, listeners to the audiobook because, you know, it's like you're reading them the story. I mean, it's, you know, it's. We talk about metaphorically your book being your voice, but then literally it is your voice. So it's nice. But think I. I would tell people, listen to it in your car or whatever. But get the book and appreciate the design and the craftsmanship in it as well too.

Thank you.

Well, Jenny, thank you so much for making the time today. I've loved our conversation and just continue to wish you great success in sales and look forward to keeping in touch and tracking what you're up to.

Likewise, Chris, thank you so much for having me and thank you to everyone listening. You could have chosen to spend the last chunk of time anywhere and you chose to spend it with us. So thank you for giving me an opportunity to contribute to your goals.

That's great. As a reminder, listeners can read a summary of this episode and access links to the show notes via my LinkedIn Top Voice Companion article, along with past gifts as well. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I have, and I hope it will help you in your journey to living your life in full. Until next time, Living a Life in Full is a production of Stout Media, a subsidiary of Gordian Knot, LLC. Assistant producer Gracie Wong Music Dan O' Brien executive producer and host Dr. Chris Stout to learn more, stop by our website at lifeinfull for show notes and please remember, recommend us to your friends and subscribe on your favorite platform. And as for the obligatory disclaimer, this podcast is for general information uses only and does not constitute the practice of psychology, medicine, nutrition or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical or psychological advice. No doctor patient relationship is formed. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I take conflicts of interest seriously. For all of my disclosures as well as show notes, please see livingalifeinfull.org podcast and my LinkedIn profile. Thanks. And until next time,

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