Dean Karnazes: A Life in (Full) Motion

Living a life in full is a conversation you always wanted to have with that person who gave an amazing TED Talk or the author of one of your favorite books, or that inspirational Olympian you always wanted to know more about. It's graduate level conversations with those making a difference in the world and in the lives of others. This show brings you new ideas and approaches so that you can live a life in full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout and I hope you enjoy this episode. This episode is brought to you by the nonprofit I founded, the center for Global Initiatives. The center is an all volunteer organization so there are no salaries and thus all tax deductible donations can go to the work. While our key country partner is in Tanzania, our work is global and generally focused in the areas of education and healthcare. We also help others to get their nonprofits started or augment others project based initiatives. It's our goal to open source humanitarian intervention and to help make it easier for others to do more good in the world. We are proud to have been ranked a great nonprofit every year since 2011 and to have achieved a Platinum level rating by Guidestar Links. In this episode's show, Notes will take you to published articles on our outcomes, a number of helpful tools, and downloadable resources which are all free always. Please Visit us at CenterForGlobalInitiatives.org and be sure to watch our video at Patreon.com DrChrisStout to learn more. Thanks. Welcome to another episode of Living a Life in Full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout. Envision celebrating your 30th birthday by getting a bit tipsy by nightfall. Not hard to imagine, right? But how about then deciding to go out for a night run from the bar for 30 miles? Well, that's what Dean Carnazes did and it changed his life and a lot of others as well. Including mine. Allow me to acquaint you with the highlight reel of some of Dean's accomplishments. He ran 350 miles in 80 hours and 44 minutes without sleep. He completed the relay 11 times, which is a 200 mile relay race with teams of 12. But Dean ran it solo. He ran marathons to the south pole in minus 13 degree temperatures and I think at least part of one was in the nude, which we'll get into. He ran 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 consecutive days, finishing with the New York City Marathon, which he ran in three hours flat. He won the infamous Badwater ultramarathon, which is 135 miles across Death Valley in 120 degree temperatures in 2004 and has five other top 10 finishes. Between 2000 and 2008 he won the Vermont Trail 100 mile endurance run. He was the overall winner in the 4 Deserts race series traversing the Ontakara, Gobi, Antarctica and Sahara Deserts. He ran on the American Ultra Running Team at the World Championships in 2005 and 2008. He ran 148 miles in 24 hours on a treadmill. He is an 11 time in a row 100 mile run in one day. Silver Buckle holder at the Western States Endurance Run, meaning that he ran 11 of those 11 runs were under sub 24 hour finishes. He ran 3,000 miles across the United States from Disneyland to New York City in 75 days averaging 40 to 50 miles a day. He has raced and competed on all seven continents at least twice and off the trails he swam across the San Francisco Bay of course. He's also a New York Times Best selling author of a number of books. Dean has served as a US Athlete Ambassador on three separate sports diplomacy envoys to Central Asia and South America. He's twice carried the Olympic Torch and is a recipient of the President's Council on Sports, Fitness and Nutrition's Lifetime Achievement Award. He currently serves as the Global Ambassador of Greek Tourism. Dean has been named Competitor Magazine's Endurance Athlete of the Year on three occasions. Men's Fitness hailed him as one of the fittest men on the planet and GQ Magazine called him the perfect human. ESPN awarded him an ESPY as Best Outdoor Athlete of the Year, Men's Journal inducted him into their Adventure hall of Fame, and Outside Magazine named him one of the ultimate top 10 outdoor athletes and put him on the COVID He's also been on the covers of Runner's World and Wired, and Time Magazine named him one of the 100 most influential people in the world. He's been featured In Newsweek, People, GQ, New York Times, USA Today, Washington Post, Forbes, Chicago Tribune, L.A. times, Wall Street Journal, and the London Telegraph. Dean has appeared on The Today Show, 60 Minutes, the Late show with David Letterman, CBS News, CNN, ESPN, the Howard Stern Show, NPR's Morning Edition, Late 9 with Conan O', Brien, the BBC, and many others. He's a graduate of the University of San Francisco, McLaren School of Business and Management, and is also accomplished in business with a notable professional career working for several Fortune 500 companies and startups alike. His roster of clients include Nike, Google, Sony, PepsiCo, Wells Fargo, Apple, Merck, Toyota, Starbucks, Accenture, Stanford University, Yale, JPMorgan Chase, McDonald's Amazon, Facebook and a host of others. Dean, welcome to the show. It's great to have you on.

I told you to embellish freely on the introduction.

No, you didn't.

I tell you tripped me up on it.

It's a journalistic endurance event to get through your bio. You know, we were talking off mic before we hit record and I want the public to know this too. I sort of met you as an audience member. It was back about two decades ago and we were in Outfitters and you were at the time on the COVID of Outside magazine and you very kindly autographed it to my son. And we've kept that as a valued memento to this day. And now, kind of oddly, bizarrely enough, you and I both now have sponsorship relationships with Hammer Nutrition, which is, you know, kind of what brought us back together. So I'm really thankful for both. And I guess this is, you know, certainly, certainly long, long overdue, man.

Yeah, well, I mean, you know, Hammer Nutrition has been a great sponsor and, you know, a great company that's been in it from, you know, almost the very beginning, at least in my career since 1987. And we've grown up together and, you know, and as far as the, like, the growth and the birth and the rebirth, you know, in talking before the show, it sounds like your son is showing us both up.

Yeah, yeah, that's true, that's true. But again, it's certainly back with your inspiration, I think for you personally, for us and our family and a lot of others. And you know, kind of speaking of that, I mean, I think your accomplishments are quite amazing in a variety of ways, professional and athletic and everything else in between. And with that also comes a pretty good dose of inspiration from my research though, and kind of looking at your origin story vis a vis running, fact check me throughout this conversation, but does that go back to kindergarten? Is that right with you being a runner?

Yeah. In fact, my earliest childhood recollections are running home from kindergarten when I was five years old. And I just, I remember, you know, trying to sit still in class and I remember the teacher saying, don't, don't fidget. You know, sit still, pay attention. And you know what five year old boy wants to do that, a five year old boy wants to do just the opposite. They want to run wild and not pay attention. So I tried my best. And when I remember when the bell went off, I thought, oh, I'm free. And I remember running out the door and running all the way home. I knew the path it Went through a park, you know, and this is in la. Oh man, I don't want to date myself. I'm old enough that LA was safe back then. And yeah, it's how it related to the world. You know, sitting in the classroom and having a teacher tell you how the world works was kind of sterile to me. I wanted to go out there and experience it firsthand. And I just remember as soon as that bell rang, I could go do that.

Yeah, yeah, that was the starting gun. So. And then is it true, like by about third grade then you started organizing running events with the other kids? Is that right?

I started organizing, you know, running events that were longer than a hundred yard dash because that was the longest they had. And I said, you know, some of us are not finished at 100 yards. So.

Well, and then again, fact check me, but. So at 11 you're like a phenom, you know, like, you know, straight out of the gate. So you did the rim to rim Grand Canyon and then you did Whitney, Is that right? Like at 11?

Yeah, I did. And you know, I mean, I just, I grew up in Southern California.

Nice.

And I just, I lived for the outdoors. You know, it was in a time when, you know, outdoor exploration was not anywhere where it is today. And you know, hiking the rim to rim to rim in the Grand Canyon, it just seemed like something I was going to do and I did it. You know, now, you know, it's kind of a, you know, with the FKTs and people, you know, looking at this as a big accomplishment to go do that rim to rim to rim. It's kind of brought more light onto what I did. But as an 11 year old kid, I just thought it was really cool. You know, I thought hiking up Mount Whitney was like, if someone said that's the highest point in the contiguous U.S. you know, I thought, oh, that'd be really cool to go out there and see what it looks like.

That's pretty amazing. So then you've been known to, we'll get into, pardon me, the sports diplomacy and things like that and kind of running for others. But I want to talk about running with your heart back at again, fact check me. San Clemente High School in cross country you were doing a fundraiser. I think it was your first fundraising kind of a thing that you were a part of and it was for underprivileged children. It was on a track and you finished in just under six hours at a dollar a lap. And then for context again, if my facts are straight, other kids ran like maybe 10 laps or 15 laps around the track. But as Dean would do, you did 105, so you basically kind of ran a marathon on that track. So what was that like? What was that like for others watching you doing this? I mean, were they, like, wanting to, you know, shut down and go home, or what was that like for you?

No, it was kind of like a Forrest Gump moment solo for. I mean, most kids went out. You know, we collected pledges, and most kids went out and said, you know, I'm going to try to run 10 laps. Will you give me a dollar a lap? So someone said, sure, I'll pledge a dollar a lap. And I didn't stop at 10 laps. I kept going. And so all the people that had run 10 laps kind of moved to the infield of the track, and they started cheering me. And some of them would join me for a lap and then go sit back down. And the funniest thing is, I'll never forget going door to door collecting, you know, my money. And people say, oh, did you do 10? Laughs I said, no, I did 105. We owe you $105. Open up that wallet.

That's great. Oh, I just love that. So from that, then, between kind of that era, maybe high school and college, you kind of had a bit of a hiatus from running. And then as I kind of queued up in the. There was that noteworthy 30th birthday. Tell us what happened in those ensuing years and then tell us about that night.

Yeah, I think, you know, I finished high school somehow. I don't know how. And then I finished college somehow. And then I finished business school. And, you know, I had a comfortable corporate job in San Francisco. You know, I had a company car, I had stock options. You know, I had a. A fat paycheck coming in every week. And I thought this was, like, the recipe for happiness. You know, get a. Get a good education, get a good job, make some money, and everything else will fall into place. And my internal life kind of unraveled as my external life was, you know, getting more lavish, getting more accomplished. This feeling of hollowness inside me was growing. And I think I had the equivalent of a midlife crisis on my 30th birthday. And I just said, you know, screw it. I'm leaving this bar. And my friend said, it's midnight. Let's have another round of tequila to celebrate. And I said, no, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna run 30 miles to celebrate my 30th birthday instead. And they looked at me and said, but you're not a runner. You're drunk. And I said, I am, but I'm still gonna do it. And I walked out of this bar, and I'll never forget, I didn't even own running gear at the time, but I had on these comfortable silk underwear, like these silk boxer shorts. And I just. I pulled off my pants and threw them down the alleyway and just started running south, knowing there was this city, you know, Half Moon bay that was 30 miles away. And I thought, just run to Half Moon Bay. And, you know, 10 miles down the road, the alcohol started wearing off. What the hell are you doing? This is a really bad idea. But I don't. It was too far to turn back at that point, and something just clicked. It was as though I had a moment with God where I felt like that is where I was supposed to be at that moment of time. It's just out there in the middle of the night, running by myself in the darkness. And, you know, I quit my job after that, and so I'm going to dedicate myself to running. I mean, it's what I love to do. It's not much, right? It's just running, but it's what I am. It's what I'm all about. So be a runner.

So then step us from that. So was it fitting running into the day job? Was it just, you know, kind of totally saying goodbye to that and figuring out how to, you know, like, did you have enough of a nest egg to live on for a while and got back into the running, or what was the. The mechanics behind that to be able to, you know, survive?

Yeah, that's a good question. I really didn't have a game plan. I just thought, you know, you love it and you're passionate about it, so maybe you can make a go of it. So I tried for a few years to do exactly what you said to keep my corporate job and, you know, run at lunch. I can't tell you how many times I'd go running when people were having, like, a lunch meeting. I'd go running. I'd come back to the office. I'd go to this sink. There's this one sink where no one could see me. And I kind of sponge off in the sink, put my suit back on, and go back to my job.

Oh, man.

Yeah. And then finally, you know, after. After doing that, actually, the genesis of what happened in my career is, you know, I thought I wanted to write a book just because it was, like, a goal, you know, before you die. Write a book, you know, run a marathon. Go skydiving. Try sushi. Write a book.

Yeah.

And so I wrote a book and I thought, okay, you know, if 10 of my buddies buy this, I'll be lucky. And it just became like a sensation, like an overnight New York Times bestseller. And that's when I realized, hey, there's power in what you're doing. Even though, you know, you finish a hundred mile race, you don't get a prize, you know, you don't get money, you get a belt buckle.

Right, right.

But I thought there's. Yeah, go ahead.

I was just gonna say. And that was ultramarathon, man. That was the book, right?

That was my first book. Yeah. And when that happened, I thought, you know, you. You don't need a job. Why have a regular job? You know, it's just. It's just dragging you down.

So step us through going from that, that night on your 30th birthday to. To ultras. I mean, did you. Were you running in organized marathons? Were you running with club teams where I'm guessing there weren't sponsorships right out of the gate? So how did all that start, you know, kind of conspire and come together?

Yeah, no, I mean, I ran 30 miles and, you know, I remember the next week I couldn't even walk. When my muscle soreness went away, I remember going to like a big five and buying some running shoes and I started running. I started running from my house out to the Golden Gate Bridge because I was in San Francisco and that was about five or six miles. And I thought it was a badass because no one. I prided myself, no one ever passes me like I pass people. No one ever passes me. And. And one day I was running back to my house and if, you know, San Francisco, no matter where you. Where you live, you got to run over a hill or two.

Exactly. The whole thing's hill repeats.

Yeah, it's hill repeats. Exactly. And I was running up my favorite hill, and these two guys just blew by me as I was standing still. And these guys were like a different species. And I thought, wow, what the. And they were in packs, you know, I come to learn their hydration pack, but I just remember they had packs on and they just left me in the dust, kind of choking on their fumes. And I really wanted to talk to them, but I thought, I'll never see them again. They disappeared over the top of the hill. Well, when I got to the top of the hill, they're up there doing push ups. So I'm like, all right, I'm going to talk, I'm going to talk to these guys. Yeah. And I said to them, you know, you guys training for a race? They weren't very talkative. And then they said, yeah. I said, ah, are there, are the hills involved? One guy said, no. And his partner said, there are mountains involved. Like mountains like, where's. Hold it. Where is this race? You know, they said, you know, is it. I said, is it a marathon? He said, no, it's, it's further than a marathon. And I didn't know there was anything further than a marathon. And I said, well, how far is it? And he said, It's 50 miles. And, and I said, holy. Are there campgrounds along the way or, you know, hotel? Like, where do you stop? And the guy, the guy's like, nobody. The gun goes off and you, and you start running and you finish. When you cross the finish line, that's when you stop. And his buddy kind of elbowed him and said, you know, if you cross the finish line. They kind of looked at me like, there's no way this joker will ever cross that finish line. And they, and they just turned around and ran off.

Wow.

So I thought, I gotta learn about this race. And I went to the library and I don't know how old you are, but you're probably about my age. You remember the Dewey decibel system?

Oh, sure.

The library is like microfilm. I found this race on microfilm and it was out near Sacramento. So I went out and did this race, this 50 mile race. And it was the toughest thing I had ever done. I mean, I thought, I thought my limbs were going to fall off. I mean, I thought, your leg is just going to fall off.

I mean.

And somehow I finished this 50 mile race and I'm in the medic tent, kind of wrapped in this Mylar blanket, shivering, drool running down my chin. I'm a complete mess. And I see these same two guys and they're high fiving each other. And they said, we qualified, we qualified. And I'm thinking, what'd you qualify for, the insane asylum? And they said, no, we qualified for the Western States 100 Mile Endurance Run. And I said, hold it 100 twice as far. And I said, but that's gonna last all night, you know, where do you sleep? And he said, you don't sleep. I said, how do you go? He said, you put on a headlamp. And I said, where do you eat? He said, you eat when you run. You cross a river in the middle of the night. It's through the mountains. It's in the Sierra Nevada. It starts at the base of a ski resort. And you have, you know, you try to finish this race in under 24 hours. And I just, I could not wrap my head around it. I mean, it was just such a huge concept to me. And the last thing they said before walking out of the tent is that, hey, buddy, you qualified as well. Oh, and when they said that to me, it was like a bolt of lightning went through my body. And I just knew at that moment that if I don't sign up and attempt this, I will forever. I'll never live it down. Like for the rest of my life, I'll be thinking. They said, hey, you qualified. You chickened out. You never did it. So I signed up for the Western States 100 Mile Endurance Run. And that was 1994. And you know, three decades later, I'm still running 100 mile races.

That is so. That's amazing. That is so amazing. So then that, like stringing those together then was the result then of ultra marathon Man. So how much? So that was 94 for the first. Then when did Ultramarathon man get published?

It came out in 2003.

Okay, so you had a string in between there from those to the time of putting together that manuscript. So to that point then, I mean, you said like, you know, doing a book and eating sushi and whatever's bucket list kinds of things. But what was it that said, okay, if I've always wanted to do a book, I'm going to do it about ultra running or I'm going to do it about my experience as being an ultra marathoner. What was the tipping point to then say, okay, I'm going to take this seriously. I'm going to put pen to paper and put together this book.

You know, the ultra marathoning community was pretty small and pretty insular back then. And not a lot of people knew about ultramarathoning. And I started telling people, people at work, like, you know, what's. What happened to you? Do you get in a car accident this weekend? And I'm like, no, I ran a hundred mile race. You.

A car wreck would be less painful.

Yeah. And so normal people, you know, that weren't immersed in this very small, you know, universe of ultra runners, they were fascinated by it. They just, they were like me, the first time I heard about running 100 miles, they, you know, they were, they had so many questions and I thought it might make good storytelling. So one of my Colleagues. She said her friend was. Was a writer. And I said, well, you know, how. How did she get into writing? She said, well, she has an agent. And I said, well, can I get the name of your friend's agent? So I got the name of this book agent, this literary agent, and I called her up and I said, hey, you know, I want to write a book. And she said, I don't represent new authors. I mean, she was ready to hang up on me. And I said, no, no, this is different. It's like it's a sports memoir. It's like new authors is impossible to get a book published by a new author. And I said, well, let me just. Let me send you some material and take a look at it.

Will you.

Will you do that? So I sent her some material. She looked it over. She said, wow, this is. This is kind of interesting. Let's. Let's send it to a publisher, a book publisher. And so I said, okay, that's. That's fine. Almost the next day, I get a call from Penguin Books.

Wow.

And they said, hey, we want to. We want to. We want to buy your manuscript.

Oh, dear.

You.

Wow.

I know. And I thought, what does that mean? They said, well, we'll give you an advance. You write the book, and then you give it to us, and we give you the rest. Hold it. Is this a prank call?

Yeah. Who is this?

But then I learned why so many authors are just, you know, like alcoholics and just cocaine addicts. They give you this big lump sum of money, and they say, in nine months, give us this big book. And it's so tempting just to put it off. Put it off, Put it off. Oh, I got paid. I got paid. I didn't have to do anything.

Yeah.

And then, like the last week, you know, just BINGE Write for 24 hours a day.

I cram for it. Well, you kind of. You're kind of forecasting my next question, because I was going to say, well, how. How does one, you know, get author a book and author a quality book, you know, that becomes New York Times bestseller, but then also fits in, you know, distances. I mean, your. Your training runs, you marathons, you know, you're. What you do to train is everybody else's goal. So how. How did you. Did. Did you just kind of not ride and actually did kind of cram toward the end and the deadline or. Tell us about that?

Yeah, no, actually, I mean, this is. This is before the term multitasking even existed. But I used to go running. I had this Motorola. It was so cool because it was a digital recorder. I remember first I had these cassette tapes I had to record on. It was a hassle. And I got this brand new digital recorder. So when I'd go on these long runs, I would just dictate into this recorder because as you know and anyone listening knows, when you're running, you have some of your clearest thoughts, your most profound insights.

Yeah.

So I'd go out and that's why the subtitle of Ultramarathon man is Confessions of an All Night Runner. I used to just go running all night and I'd confess into this digital recorder. And then when I was on flights, you know, flying for business, I would just type up my notes. Wow. And it was a good exercise because people say, you know, I feel like I'm right with you in your books. Like I feel like I'm in your shoes. And I think that's largely because I'm writing when I'm running.

That's great. Yeah, I, I joke. It's funny you should say that. I mean, I feel like we're, you know, I'm the limping identical cousin to you, Dean, because I, I, it has been, you know, I have a little Sony digital recorder that I always run with and it's like, I'll come back, wife will say, you know, how was your run? Or, you know, whatever. And I said it was great, but I have like 18 voice memos to myself, you know, so I'll see you after I shower, you know, because I got to transcribe all these things. It's just there is some something about that's sort of transcendent with the running of where, you know, a lot of yours and mine and a lot of other people's heads go to, you know, places that don't happen when you just like sit down in front of a keyboard or something. So I totally get what you mean. But to do a whole book that way is a whole nother level, man. That's pretty cool to be able to, to do it that way. So, so I'm going to bounce around a little bit because I do want to do it. I want to go into a little deeper dive about your writing. But so you get the contract, we get the agent, you get the contract, you get the manuscript in. Then like, how long is it out in the public arena till you find out that it's become a bestseller? And how did you get notified that it was a bestseller?

You know, it was almost instantaneous.

Wow.

Yeah. I mean, it happened literally overnight. I started getting calls from shows and, you know, this is, you know, Good Morning America. We want to have you on. It was mind blowing.

Wow.

It was absolutely mind blowing. And I also. This is back when there were book tours. So I remember doing the book tour and. And there's a saying that I learned in writing circles. The book tour is the punishment for writing the book. So cruel.

That's right. Yeah. It really, really helps your schedule of training too. Right?

It's murder on everything. Yeah. I mean, you know, you get to these great cities and you stay in these fabulous hotels, you know, but, I mean, you get in at 11 at night and then you got a call sheet that starts at 4:30 in the morning. You know, you finish, you go to the airport, you fly to the next city and you just repeat that.

Yeah.

Rinse and repeat for like, you know, eight or nine days. So it's pretty grueling.

Yeah.

But I remember doing the book tour and, you know, doing all the TV and so forth around it and just thinking that I'm really glad I wrote this book because, you know, I. Getting back to the original idea of running 100 miles opens up people's minds. I mean, you could say you ran a marathon and people are like, oh, that's great. How far is the marathon? They really don't know. But when you say I ran 100 miles, like everyone, I can't even drive 100 miles. How did you do that?

Well, yeah, I think that. Good. Point taken. And it's also, I think, to your point, like how you were saying that the ultra running community was so kind of unknown and somewhat insular and it wasn't like, there's an Olympic event that's an ultra distance and blah, blah, blah. And then the fact of your book coming, like the initial, the immediate interest of Penguin and then the immediate interest of the public to go from 0 to 60 in bestseller time is also kind of interesting in thinking about how there must have been something out there that the public had such a curiosity about this or maybe had heard something about it. And I think you really kind of became the poster person or the spokesperson for demystifying these alterations distances and what's the difference between an ultra and a regular marathon and things like that. So I think, you know, there's a lot of gratitude out there for people that, you know, learned about it, got inspired by it, and then, you know, for those folks too, that actually, you know, tie it, put on the shoes and tied the laces and got out on the trails.

Yeah. I mean, I think it started somewhat of a trend. You know, maybe I was on the crest of a crest of a wave and, and it kind of, you know, it, it kind of exploded the whole. I mean, if you look at the numbers in ultrarunning, the number of participants, I mean, it is just like a, it's like a, it's like a, you know, if you chart it over time, it's like an arrow going straight up into the sky. I mean, it's just every year more and more people get into it. It kind of plateaued for a while, but now ultra running is growing again like crazy. And I think it's somewhat of a backlash to technology. You know, I have a quote, you know, someone asked me, you know, is it running boring? And I said, yeah, that's why I like,

yeah, it's, I mean, like back to that getting in your head, you know, kind of thing. I mean, you and I talked off Mike before. Like I, you know, generally like to listen to podcasts, like when I go for a run, but it's not every time. I mean, there's some times where it's just sort of like I need to be in nature. I need to, you know, kind of, I don't know what, just go out without an agenda or without some, you know, mental to do list or problem to solve and just, you know, just enjoy the run, enjoy, you know, that, that process. And that's, you know, it's maybe a, like you said, maybe it's sort of like a nice detoxification from technology. That's a good point.

Yeah. And also I think these hundred mile races, you know, 100 mile or further races, you know, how often is it that anyone, especially people, you know, your listeners, have seen the full cycle of a day, 24 hours outside? I mean, how many people have been out, watched the sunrise, you know, watch the sun move across the sky, watch the sunset, watch the moon rise, you know, watch the moon set and watch the sunrise the next day. All outside in nature while this is happening. Yeah, there's something life affirming about this. I mean, it's kind of where we came from and we're so far removed from that now. There's something almost primordial about doing it again. And it's, it's really, it's rejuvenating to me. It's revitalizing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The nurturance and nourishment that I think that provides is, you know, is quite different from what everybody else's lived experiences these days. So part of that too I mean, you know, I'm not going to go into your training regimen or your diet or anything like that because you've, you know, people can just google your name and you know, get those tips and things. But, you know, a part of the thing around endurance sports of, you know, whatever ilk, bicycling, swimming, running, et cetera, have such an aspect of mental fortitude. And you know, I'm a clinical psychologist, so I'm real into the, you know, head space of these kinds of things. What has been your process of preparing mentally for ultramarathons or anything like in particular to, you know, keeping focused because I know, you know, a lot of times in ultras people will get a little, you know, hallucinate y and you know, if you're on a trail, man, you got to watch out, you know, for, you know, going over the side of a cliff or, you know, snagging a root or something like that. What's, what are some of the things that you've done or that you do to manage the mental aspect of it?

You know, one thing I do with every race is that I just go into it at the starting line with the same commitment and that is I'm going to try my, my hardest today at this event. I'm going to give it my all. No matter what happens. I'm not going to give up without my best fight. And that, that, that placates some of the pre race jitters because what can we do other than be the best that we are? So I don't have any expectations other than I'm going to give it my all. Like I'm. God damn it, I'm going to try my hardest at this race and I'm not going to give up unless they take me out of here on a stretcher. So I go into that mindset and then, you know, people say, what do you think about when things get tough? And honestly, thinking is the problem. I try not to think. I try to be in the present moment of time, the here and now and just execute my next footstep to the best of my ability. So I put on the blinders to the future. I don't question how much further is the next aid station or how much further is the finish. I don't reflect on the past. All I think about is take your next footstep to your best ability. Okay? Take your next footstep to the best of your ability. And it's not easy to do. I mean, our minds are so active. You know, this because of your profession. Even now, as you know, we're talking, you're probably thinking about, what's the next question? How much time do we have left? This and that. I, I just literally tune all of that out and I force myself to come back to my next footstep. And I've done this for 6, 7, 8 hours at a time. It's almost like a Zen like state you go into.

Yeah.

And you can get through anything, I'm convinced if you're just present and focus on the here and now.

That's good. You know, it reminds me back in the day I used to do a lot of high altitude climbs. And kind of the joke back then was because it was, you know, I'm aging myself too, dating myself of we had beepers and it was sort of like, you don't take a beeper, you know, on your climbing harness. And there is sort of this thing of the disconnection from not just technology like you've noted, but also just kind of all the other kinds of things. And to be in this space like you're talking about for those six or seven hours, I mean, you know, climbs, the summit and the coming back down on summit days, you know, when it's a multi staged climb, summit days are like, for me, we're always like the ultra focused kind of times and it's that same kind of thing. There's a Zen like quality and paying attention to kinds of things. You know, sometimes it's weird for me, like fear would not necessarily. I'd be more afraid at the lower altitudes and stuff, even in the less steep spots than I was, you know, at the more vertical, you know, kinds of things where probably it was really much more, you know, dangerous. But I think there's, there's something to be said of what, you know, your point of this kind of connectedness, focus, everything else kind of really does not matter, you know, other than this next, you know, this next step, be it on a trail in an ultra or be it, you know, in a crampon on the side of a mountaintop. So yeah, I totally, I totally get that. And speaking of that, then, man, you have not just done ultras, you have been in some of the most extreme conditions on earth. Is there any particular race or environment that you felt was maybe most challenging? And if I'm guessing, probably what was that? And, and what did you take away from that experience?

Yeah, you know, I've done so many races, I've raced on all seven continents twice. But there was one race I did, it was in The Atacama Desert, which is in South America, in Chile, and it's the driest place on Earth. I remember asking one of the guys there, I said, you know, when did. When did it last rain? And he said, it hasn't. I said, well, since when? He said, since we've been keeping records. There's never been a recorded raindrop where you're racing.

Wow.

The humidity was so low. Yeah. And. And it was. It was like a marscape. It was six day self supported, 250km. When I say self supported, that means you have to carry everything you need in your pack. They would set up a tent for you at night for the racers, and they provide water. But as far as food, you know, you had a. You were living on freeze dried food, you know, astronaut food, basically.

Right.

You were sleeping in a tent where at night it was below freezing. During the day it was over 100 degrees. And it was just. I just. And there's no. I mean, you're not showering. There's no water for showers. So you're out there for six days crossing this desert. And I remember my hair was like straw. I could just break my hair.

Sure. Wow. Do you have to orient that way too, or do you kind of generally know what is. I can't imagine that there's a 250 mile or kilometer trail or something. How do you make sure that you're, you know, not going up the side of a volcano or something instead?

Yeah, it's an actual organized race and they put out these pink flags line of sight. You're not allowed to use a gps, so you've got to look for like you get to a pink flag, you look for the next pink flag.

Wow.

The problem is if you're in a desert and there's a sandstorm.

Right. Yeah.

You can't see past your hand, let alone the next pink flag.

Oh, my God.

So you spend a lot of time, you know, walking around in circles looking for the next checkpoint. Yeah. Wow.

Good lord. So, okay. And I kind of. I kind of teed this up too in the intro. You've. One of the other deserts is Antarctica that you've run. But did you lose your clothes in part of that, Dean? In some part of that. What's the backstory with that?

Okay, so I ran a marathon to the South Pole.

As one does.

Yeah, as one does. It was a one and done sort of thing. It was supposed to be an annual event. It was the inaugural South Pole Marathon. And they told me there'd be 40 to 50 intrepid adventurers from around the world all convening on the South Pole for this first ever South Pole Marathon. There were three of us.

Two were race organizers.

It was so dangerous. I mean, it was ridiculous. Oh, it's one of those things. I was supposed to be home in 10 days, you know, and 30 days later, I stumbled through the door.

Oh, my God.

It was one of those things where you. We got weathered in down there, you know, it just. It was catastrophe after catastrophe and. Yeah. But anyway, I finished this marathon, and at the South Pole, there's actually a South Pole, like a candy stripe barber pole with this stainless steel orb on top of the South Pole. And I'm. I'm sitting there staring at this, you know, this South Pole, and a guy comes up to me says, wow, you know, that was amazing. You're the first guy to run a marathon in South Pole. Do you want to run around the world naked? And I said, you've been spending a little too much time down the South Pole, buddy.

You need to get out of here once in a while.

Exactly. And he said, no, think about it. He said, I'm an engineer. If you run around the South Pole, you're circumnavigating the globe just at its smallest circumference. And I'm like, ah, yeah, it makes sense. But I said, but it's minus 30 degrees. And he said, just don't let your appendage touch that stainless steel or about top, and you'll be fine. So I stripped to my boots and I ran around the Pole, the South Pole. I ran around the world naked. How many people can claim that?

That's right. That is. That's the ultimate bucket list. Check mark. Oh, my gosh. That's hysterical. That is so good. So in the context of all these. So I was talking about, like, harsh environments and stuff. So would that also with the one in Chile, would that be that.

Yeah.

Yeah. Would that be the hardest, you would say, so far, or is there something that even tops that? I mean, it certainly sounds like a crazy challenge just trying to figure out which way direction you're supposed to go in.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, I. I think you mentioned I. One time I ran 50 marathons and all the 50 US states in 50 consecutive days. And I think that one was probably the. The most mentally challenging because it was. It was so protracted.

Yeah.

You know, I remember running a marathon, a marathon in Arizona, in Phoenix, and it was really hot. And I got to the halfway point. I thought, I'm not going to finish this marathon. And that was marathon 19.

Oh, boy.

And I thought you got to get up for 31 more mornings and do the same thing. Like, there's no way you're gonna make. Was just overwhelming. And. And I used that same technique at that point. I said, don't think about 31 more marathons. You know, think about your next footstep. Don't think about tomorrow, you know, don't think about dinner. Just think about your next footstep buddy. Like, get yourself together and be here. And now that's amazing.

All right, so I'm going to bounce around all over the place. I'm going to shift out of running for just a second. It'll still have some overlap to it. But again, in the bio intro, you're a global ambassador of Greek tourism. And is it true if my facts. Again, fact check. You wrote your master's thesis on an aspect of Greek history, is that correct?

Yeah, well, I have a couple graduate degrees and one of them is in classics.

Okay.

So I studied the original marathon, which was in 490 BC in, in Marathon, Greece. There's an actual township in, in Greece called Marathon. And a foot herald by the name of Phidipedes or Phidipides ran after the battle of Marathon to the Acropolis. And he proclaimed Nikki Niki. Or we say Nike. Nike, which means victory. Victory in Greek. He said, we are victorious. And then he died. And that's where Phil Knight got the name of his sportswear company, his footwear company, Nike, by the way.

Wow.

So I did, I mean, I researched his story. I wanted to know the history, I wanted to know everything that happened, how, you know, how this can take place, what path did he follow and so forth.

And then you did an honor run in honor of that, right? An homage to that.

What I learned is the backstory was before running the final marathon, you know, he ran from Athens to a city state called a Greek city state called Sparta. So if you've seen the movie 300, you know who is the most badass fighting ancient Greece?

Exactly.

It was the Spartans, right?

Yeah.

So he, he ran, it was more like 140 miles to Sparta to recruit the Spartans because the Persians had landed the bay of Marathon, which is near Athens. And the Athenians were not fighters. I mean, the Athenians were philosophers and architects and mathematicians, you know, astronomers, but they weren't fighters. So they sent this herald to run to Sparta to recruit the Spartans. He made it to Sparta. Somehow he made it within a day and within 36 hours, essentially. The record said he arrived the day after setting off.

Wow.

So back in 490 BC, a man ran 140 miles within 36 hours. He got to Sparta. You know, he said to King Leonidas, we've been invaded, you know, come help the Athenians or Greece is going to fall to the Persians. And the, the Spartans agreed to that. But they said, but there's one hitch. We can't leave until the moon is full because our religion forbids us for leaving for war unless it's a full moon. And that wasn't for six more days. So this runner got up the next morning and said, you know, I got to go tell my brethren and in Athens that the Spartans are coming, but they're going to be delayed. So he ran all the way back to Athens the next day and yeah, and then he heard that, you know, the troops had deployed to Marathon. And he ran to Marathon and told the general, hey, the Spartans are coming, but it's not going to be for six days. The general decided the Persians are like fortifying their, their position every, every hour. Like, we can't wait for six days. So the Athenians attacked the Persians. They somehow won this amazing battle. And if, you know, if you're into battle tactics, read about the battle of Marathon. It was like the, the, the, the tactical approach they took was, is legendary and you know, in war theory. But anyway, after that was his final run to the Acropolis when he died.

Wow.

So, you know, I, I, I learned about this backstory and I thought I got to try this, this original run, Sparta. Yeah.

So you did that and then you wrote a book about it, right? The Road to Sparta. That's about that experience. It is. And you were being Mr. Authentic in this, right? I mean you ran in like little leather show leather, leather strips for shoes. And you mimic the diet that would have been the diet of the time and stuff. Tell us about that.

Yeah, I wanted to try to, you know, because I'm going to write a book about this guy doing this. So I kind of wanted to try to reproduce as much of what he was feeling as possible. So, you know, I, the ancient Greek foot heralds, they were called hemodoromi or day long runners in Greek. They ate like a, like a beef jerky, like a dried meat. They ate olives and figs and they ate this sports concoction they called pistilli, which is mashed up sesame seeds with honey. It was like a paste. So I, I use these same foods and I only drink water. I didn't drink, you know, heat or perpetuum or anything like that. I just drank water and it was interesting. Interesting.

It was an experience, huh?

Well, you know, like, I've done these seven or eight hour training runs eating only figs. And I thought, figs are great fuel. They are for. For eight or nine hours max. But, you know, for 24 hours. You know why you eat figs if you're not regular? You eat figs to become regular. Well, when you're running, you know, 153 miles, you don't want to be regular.

Right. So. Right.

I was running with a roll of toilet paper, my loin cloth.

Wow. Wow. It's just. Yeah, I mean, I. I think, think a lot of folks might have known that, you know, like the classic thing, hence the genesis of the word marathon. But the whole, you know, Sparta aspect of it I think is just really. I mean, again, it's. It's inspirational in the fact that you, you know, you could have done it totally as a, you know, as an academic and, you know, as a thesis kind of, you know, piece and whatnot. That would have been good and important and educational. But then the whole fact to kind of take it to the next level and do it this way again is just like an. An inspiration to people. It's curious to people. And the gift that you give to people of then, you know, explaining it and going through it, I think is really, again, kind of one of those tip of the hat to Dean, we appreciate it kind of thing. So thank you. That's. What an experience, boy.

Well, I tried to bring it into modern times because so many of our practices are from ancient Greece. We don't even realize. I mean, the term trophy. Trophy in Greek means the turning point. So whenever there was a battle and the Greeks won at the point where they turned the enemy around to retreat, they would collect all the discarded armament and weapons from the enemy and they pilot high at that point. And that's where we get the modern word trophy.

I did not know that. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, it's like when you take these kinds of. I mean, even thinking about like, Sparta and all the things with that and the things we might read in books or learn in school or see in movies or whatever. But then, you know, now there's the Spartan races and there's, you know, all these kinds of, you know, as if, you know, just regular, you know, running wasn't enough, or marathons weren't enough, or ultras weren't enough, and obstacle course races and, you know, all these other kinds of. I did a piece for LinkedIn a while back called Weirdo Challenges. You know, where there's tank lift or tank curling, you know, and all the. There's the Hundred ton club and you know, things like that. So I think, you know, it's again, it's these maybe people trying to scratch their itch, get off the couch, not, you know, be so glued to their devices and you know, go out and you know, experience something and you know, and I think it's always nice to be able to do it if it can be in the, you know, some kind of charitable aspect or, you know, thing that goes along with it as well. So. Okay, good. So I want to shift again, Dean. So I'm not going to go into, like I said, training, advice and things like that. I can never mimic you or, you know, and advice is hard. It's hard to be generalizable and things like that. But I want to pick your brain about five areas. Writing which we've already touched on. I got a couple more questions around that. Business, marriage and family, humanitarian works and diplomacy and just everyday life. So are you up for that? Are you good for time? Can we. Yeah. Good. So I'm going to circle back with the thing we've already got a little bit of a start with and that's, that's writing. So I believe by my tally there's at least five books. I'm just going to call them out. We'll have them in the show. Notes Ultramarathon man, like you said. Subtitled Confessions of an all night runner. 5050 the secrets I learned running 50 marathons in 50 days. Road to Sparta, which we were just talking about. Subtitled Relieve Relief, Reliving the ancient battle and epic run that inspired the world's greatest foot race run 26.2, which I love. 26.2 stories of blisters and bliss. Chicken Soup for the Soul, running for good. 101 stories for runners and walkers to get you moving. Runner's High, subtitled My Life in Motion and Running Wild Inspirational trails from around the world. So you told us the story about, you know, kind of just, I mean, convincing the agent in some, you know, fairly cool, unique way about being that, you know, that first writer did that. Then help prime the pump for subsequent book deals or tell us, you know, you've shared the story behind the ultra marathon man. How about this cascade of some of these others? 5050 and Road to Sparta. How was that then? Getting those booked in deal, same publisher. Did you farm it out with an agent. What was. What were the mechanics behind that?

Yeah, that's a good question. So the. The very first agent that I had, Carol Bidnick, I've been with her the whole time. So she's represented me in all my books. They've been with different publishers. You know, the publishing world has consolidated, like everything else. So, you know, Penguin merged with Random House. You know, the Penguin, Random House. Harper Collins is one of my publishers, Harper Books. But, you know, she. She oversees all of all of my book deals. You know, on the subject of writing, you know, I would tell any writer to start with, with Homer, with the Iliad and the Odyssey. That is the best writing that exists. And it was like the first piece of written literature. And the beauty of it, it wasn't written. There was an oral tradition. Like, it's lyrical. Like, when you read the lines, it's almost like a Bob Dylan lyric of a song. Every verse is like that. So I say, start with those two books. And you also notice that in the storytelling, Homer engages the senses. Like, when I write my books and I talk about a running story, you've got to pull the reader in by engaging the sense of smell. Explain what it smells like. What are you seeing? What does it feel like? What are you feeling? What are you hearing? By describing all those things in great detail, you can pull someone into a story and it gets them more engaged. So I've learned how to write. The most common reaction I get by a non runner that reads my book is, oh, it didn't suck. They think, you know, an athlete's gonna write a stupid, shallow book.

Right, right.

They read my book, my ad. It's actually kind of good.

That's a good litmus test. So. And I know also in your cv, you've written historically, like magazine columns and stuff, like, too like Men's Health, for example. So, you know, what was that like? Did you have to pitch them? Did they come to you and say, hey, man, we know you're bona fides. We'd love to have you do a column? How did those kinds of things come about?

Yeah, they've all come in to me. They've invited me. They either want to take an excerpt of my book or they want me to write a specific story on a specific topic. So I love to write and I love making the time just to do nothing but write, you know, to focus on one thing, which is so rare these days. So I read a monthly column for Ultra Running magazine, which is, you know, kind of a small niche publication, but I Can't tell you the responses I always get to my articles. I mean, you know, people, you develop a loyal following. Like people like your voice, like you resonate with certain people and they like hearing. And so I kept, I kept telling them, okay, this is my last year. No, no, come on, just one more year. All right. This is my last year. One more year. So I'm still right. I think I'll be writing longer than I'm running.

That's good. And not to steal from elsewhere, but I have also heard with I can't give attribution to which podcast, I'm guessing maybe it was Rich Roll. But you talked about your writing process in the sense of like you would write for a bit and then you would go like, do some body weight exercises or some calisthenics or something and then kind of come back. Is that, do you still do that? And if so, what is your. How do you mix and match like a day in the life of a writing day for you with, you know, also not just being, you know, 10 hours at a desk?

I do, I never sit down. I think that, you know, I do all my writing standing up. You know, I have a standing desk. I've had a standing desk for a long time. And I also, you know, I do these little like hit training routine. I have this 12 to, you know, 14 minute hit training routine I do in between writing. So, you know, you can only stare at a screen for so long.

Oh yeah, yeah.

So I'll just go do. And it's all body weight. You know, it's push ups. It's. I have a pull up bar in my office. Pull ups, burpees, sit ups. So I'll do a quick round of hit training and then I'll go back. And as you're doing the hit training, inevitably you're thinking about you're word crafting or you're forming the next sentence or where do I want to take the story now? So you're doing a lot of thinking and to your previous point, motion stirs emotion. Once you start moving, the creative juices start flowing. So that's exactly the process I follow for writing.

Gotcha. Good. So then let's segue into the business stuff. And this is maybe kind of a natural because I know that or I think did. Did you sell or license. I'm not even sure the white right way to say this. Movie rights to a documentary about you or tell us or a feature. Tell us about the. The movie rights. Projects. Project or projects.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And, you know, I don't know the movie making business, but I kind of took my shot at writing a script. And, you know, writing a movie script is very much different than writing a book. You know, it's much more telling the director with a scene and then, you know, some. Some lines, that kind of thing.

Right.

So, you know, there's. I have a representative who's, you know, shopping it around and, you know, there's been a lot of interest. You know, these things take time, as I've learned.

Oh, yeah.

So finding the right home for it and, you know, finding the right actors and the right voice is. Is going to be a process. But, you know, I've had to. I've kept, like, creative control of how the story is told because I've seen Holly. Yeah, I mean, I've seen, like, I'm a. I'm a surfer as well. And there are so many cheesy Hollywood surfing movies. Like, no. No legitimate surfer would ever say what that guy just said.

Right.

You know, this guy, come on. He's. He spends more time in the gym than he does in the water. So, you know, it's like, I didn't want to make a. A stupid running film. I want it to be legit and kind of hardcore.

And is it. Is it a biopic, per se, or is it based on true events or is it just talking about, you know, the. The athleticism with, like, not Dean as being the character?

No, right now it's. It's basically based on my first experience at Western States. So some of the. The stories I just told you about stumbling out of the bar, it's kind of like a, you know, a life story, but finishing with the first time we finished Western States. And, you know, in the movie it's called Western Trails because, you know, Western States doesn't really say so much to a general audience, but if you say Western Trails, they know it's like a trail in the West.

Yeah.

So it's. It's based on like a snippet of time.

That's cool. That I can't. Well, keep us posted with that so that I keep my thumb on the pulse. But there's also. Would you call it a documentary or a profile of you, too? That's available out there too, right?

Yeah, no, there's been a couple of documentaries where I've been the main subject one is. It's just called Ultra Marathon man. And it was about. It was the 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days. And it's a really good movie. I Mean, it was. It was a small production company that put it together. J.B. bennett. It was interesting. Nat Geo. This is when Nat Geo was doing this sort of programming, had bought rights to cover the. The 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days. And two day. Two days before. Like, the CEO said, no, we're not gonna. We're not gonna greenlight this. This guy's never gonna make it. Like, we're gonna.

We're gonna waste all this footage.

Exactly, exactly. We're gonna go have, you know, sell pretty commercial time, and this guy's gonna make it for five or six marathons. It's gonna be over.

Oh.

So, yeah. So this kind of scrappy, you know, young videographer said, I'll. I'll come along on the ride.

Wow.

And he did a really good job with it. I mean, even now when I watch it, it's got an original soundtrack and you can watch it on YouTube. It's just. It's just called Ultra Marathon Man.

Okay.

And then there's another documentary called the Road to Sparta, about my run to. From Athens to Sparta. I'm one of four characters. I'm the main character. But it's good as well. It's dramatic, it's unexpected. It's good. Both these, the guys that did the films are really creative individuals. They're kind of introverts, so they have some strong skills. They're not good at marketing, but they're really good at telling a story. And they did a good job with both of them.

Good. Well, we'll try and help them out on the marketing side of things. I'll get it. Get links in the show, notes for these. So I don't know if it's still in that same area. I. In my head, think about it in the Venn diagram of business overlapping with your life and activities. I'm just gonna say these all out as a category and you can kind of pick them apart as you care to. So, like, getting sponsored. You've been involved with startups, you do endorsements, you do licensing. I know, like we've already said, you've got deals with Hammer, you've done stuff with cbd. Wine, tea, oils, lotions. Step us through the maze of sponsorships, licensing, entrepreneurship in your life.

I wish I could. I wish there was some.

Here's the five step steps to.

Yeah, I mean, I. I think the. The best quality I could assign to a business person, a young aspiring business person, is curiosity.

Okay.

Like, be. I'm just really curious and it drives some people crazy. But I. I Like to find out about things and you know, and I have a lot of people pitch me on ideas and some of them I think are crazy. Some are thinking, ah, this, you know, this, I want to invest in this company or I want to be sponsored. I want to promote this company. So it just, you know, it's curious. Seek out opportunities, learn about them. You know, if you're curious about one particular topic or subject, you know, even, even if that's, you know, basket weaving, you don't have to be specializing in AI like everyone else. I mean, be the best darn basket weaver there is and, you know, you'll have a very fulfilling career and you'll make, you'll make a go of it. I mean, so do what you love, be curious and, and just follow your passion and I think you'll be successful.

That's good. Well, and then have the chops to deliver on it as well, too. So. All right, good.

You know, people say, how do you get so motivated to do these things? If you, if you love something, the motivation comes naturally. Yeah, I don't have to force myself to go on a run. I mean, some days I, some days I do, but mostly I, I love it. So doing what you love isn't, it's not hard to motivate.

Yeah, I did when I was dabbling in the ultra world, I did a double marathon and it was trails and whatnot and I just, was kind of just doing it on my own, self supported, you know, not a big deal. Double, you know, that's a easy workout probably in your world. But I told my daughter, I said we were counting down to the day that it was going to start. And I said I get to run all day today. You know, it wasn't like I have to run or it's like, you know, it's this thing I've been dreading or anything like that. And it just really, you know, kind of turns it around 180 degrees that this is, this is a gift, you know, this is something that, you know, I get to be in nature, I get to, you know, focus on things, blah, blah, blah, and, you know, not be bothered by the screens and work and demands and responsibilities for a certain period of time. And, you know, it's, it's, it's nourishing, it's, it's rejuvenating. So I, I, I totally get that. So speaking of daughters and marriage and, and family and stuff, fact check. Childhood sweetheart. Is that, who is your wife? Is that, is that correct?

Yeah, I married my, my high School sweetheart.

That's so cool.

And we have two great kids. Yeah.

And she's a dentist and realtor, last time I checked. Is that still what she's up to?

Yes, yes.

Gotcha. And yes.

And. And, you know, I mean, when people say, you know, how much sacrifice did you have to make when you had kids? And sure, there's sacrifices. I mean, you know, every parent that wants to run a marathon or do an ironman who has young kids, you know, you're going to train at night, you're going to train early in the morning. Like, my family always came first, but I also brought. I brought my family everywhere. I, you know, and. And not only that, I made it. I tried to make it pleasant for them. I didn't want them to think, oh, dad's gonna drag us to another marathon, you know, next weekend. I would literally get a night. It's one time. I'd get a nice hotel. I'd plan a lot of activities other than the running.

That's great.

You know, that they enjoyed. Yeah. And the run would just be part of it. So that way they look forward to every time I went running and they came along, they look forward to where we going next kind of thing.

That is a great tip. That is really brilliant. I always struggled with that when I was doing more international climbs, and I did all of those. My wife and I were married for a period of time before we had kids. And once we had kids, it sort of didn't diminish my desire to keep climbing. But my wife did, and she said. She said, you can go on climbs, but they all have to be, you know, within the United States. So I was like, okay, fair enough, you know, kind of a thing. And I. I always kind of felt too, that there was a certain level, this is just me, that, you know, the training for a climb, which for me just included primarily just lots of running. But, you know, like you said, you know, it's. It's early mornings or it's late at night or it's, you know, whatever, and that's time away. But you always try and do it while everybody else is asleep. So they didn't really notice. Maybe. But, you know, I also then tried to do it as you have done as well, you know, like sponsoring some kind of cause or something. So we developed, through my nonprofit, something called Summits for Others. So every time I would, you know, go on a climb, it would be a sponsorship thing. We did sponsorships, you know, for my charity. We did sponsorships for War Child and other kinds of things. And that also just kind of helped make it feel like it was more community awareness, you know, building. And I, I know that for you, community and support, you know, have really kind of gone hand in hand with all of your, you know, experiences and endeavors and stuff. Do you, do your kids run or what's. Did they just leave that up to dad or what's. If I can ask, I mean, I don't want to pry, but if we were talking off mic about. And both my kids are runners, by the way, so how about for you?

Yeah, my, my kids run. They're not competitive. Like, they don't run competitively, but they run, both run. Because they, they just love to run. They love, you know, to clear their head kind of thing.

Yeah.

You know, my daughter and I have run a half marathon.

Nice. Together.

My son and I ran a marathon and an ultra. A 50, 50 kilometer race together. So they, they've done some racing and. But they mostly just run, you know, for the health benefits and for the mental health benefits.

Yeah. It's so nice. I, I was again off mic. I was sharing with you that I was talking with dear friend who's just a world class triathlete, Sarah Fix. Yeah, Sarah's awesome. And she was saying, and we were talking about how, you know, back in the day when we were all kids, it wasn't like our parents, you know, we're gonna go out on the little league field and play baseball with us. You know, maybe we played catch or maybe we tossed a football, but, you know, maybe we played tennis. But the fact that there's these dial it up from 5k to whatever, these kinds of things where now parents and kids can kind of run. Or there's the little fun run before the 5k. So at least everybody's out there and they got a race bib or whatever. I love that other aspect of that with the community of running of whatever kind of distance it is, it's the inclusiveness of it, you know, of all ages, all, you know, shapes, sizes, generations, speeds, you know, lack of speed for me, that kind of a thing. So I think that's cool. I clipped. I'm looking at my desk here too. I just have to mention this too. Within. I don't think I put the date on it, but in the last couple of weeks, there was an article in the Wall Street Journal and it talked about the title was Marathon Running Sets, Milestones. And one of the things they noted was that the Paris Marathon set a record for the biggest marathon number of finishers ever at 54,175. You know, and again, I think. I can't help but say I think you got a little bit to do with that, Dean. So, you know, bringing this kind of awareness just to, you know, to running and that sort of a thing. And again, like you said, you know, maybe it's this. You know, there's a backlash of people wanting to be out, be away from their screens. You know, Paris Marathon is not in nature, but it's outdoors and it's. There's community, you know, around those kinds of things. And you can always find whatever your little niche is of a community of runners, you know, nowadays from whatever kind of distance. So. So anyway, I just.

I. Yeah, I mean, running is experience right now. You know, I get a lot of industry reports and analysis, and running is exploding right now, all distances. But, I mean, you talked about the Paris Marathon, The London Marathon, 2025 London Marathon. They have. They have. They had slots for about 48,000 runners. Within 24 hours of opening registration, they had over 850,000 applications.

Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Wow.

Yeah. I mean, these big, big marquee marathons, all of them.

Yeah.

It's almost impossible to get into them now. People. Some people curse me. They're like, careful what you. Yeah, I can't even get into this round in this lottery. I've been in the live fight for five years. I haven't been able to get into the damn race.

That's. Yeah, well, again, yeah, I guess that's. That's the downside. Yeah, I. I get it. I don't have any quick solutions for that, but. Yeah, it's. It's.

There's more. There's. There's a lot more race. I mean, there, you know. Yeah, sure. London, Paris, you know, New York. These big marquee marathons will always, you know, be iconic events people want to do, but there are so many small. I mean, I'm doing in a couple of weeks. It's called the White Marble Marathon in Tuscany, Italy. It's a great course. I mean, they've got a lot of availability, and people just don't know about it yet. But, you know, it's. I think the more people that get into running, the better. Yeah, I think it's universally. I mean, runners. They appreciate the environment more because they're breathing the air. You know, they're. They're good consumers, are usually very considerate of each other. You know, they're. They're humble because running has a way of humbling, you no matter how arrogant you are, you're not going to sprint 100 miles, you know, whatever.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. It is very humbling. So, okay, I want to be conscientious of your time and maybe this last area to focus on because it's really kind of an itch that I wanted to scratch you again. I've kind of referenced this as well, too, of. Pardon me, your humanitarian works and your work in sports diplomacy. So you've done awareness and fundraising in some of your races for causes. That was kind of your origin story back with that high school event. In 105 laps on the track and all that. How was it that you then got to be a US Athlete ambassador, if that's the right term. You've done three separate sports diplomacy envoys to my knowledge, in Central Asia and South America. How did that start? And tell us, unpack that. What's that like doing that?

Yeah. I got invited to run across the ancient Silk road for the 25 year anniversary of US diplomatic relations with three former Soviet bloc countries. Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan.

Of course,

I learned that it was, it was, you know, John Kerry was the Secretary of State. He was a big cyclist. And originally it was like 525km between the three capital cities of those countries. And it was all in the ancient Silk Road, which I'm fascinated with because, you know, it was Alexander the Great that first pioneered that route. And he's Greek like me. But anyway, you know, they said, well, he can't. He can't do the ride. I think he had a bum hip or something. And they said, maybe you can do it. And I thought, well, I'm not a cyclist. And they said, you can run. So I signed up for this event. Yeah. And it was. And it was, it was remarkable. I mean, I was going to these, you know, locations where they'd never seen an American. And here's this guy on foot, you know, high fiving them like they were just. These people are like, here's an American, he's gonna high five me. Oh, my God. It was. And, and I had. It was. It was so beautiful. Because running is such a universal activity. I mean, there's so many things in this world that divide us. Right? You know, you talked about some before the color of our skin, you know, the God we worship, our language, you know, our socioeconomic level. But running is something that is universal. It unites us. It's, you know, we all run the same way and we can all run. So I had Tens of thousands of people run with me. You know, villagers would come out and they'd run 200 meters with me. You know, some people would run a half a day with me. But it was across these, you know, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan, which were great countries. I never saw one McDonald's, not one Starbucks. I mean, if you want to get away from America.

Yeah.

You know, go to. Go to Kyrgyzstan.

No kidding. Wow.

And it was so successful. They recruited me a couple more times. I did one in Peru. Same sort of thing, sports diplomacy. And also in Fiji.

That's. It's great. I mean, I think of those maybe just in the context of, like a more so team sports, but I, I had no idea until researching, you know, this part of your background that that was just, you know, even something that, you know, someone like you could go and do these kinds of things. So that's, that's also, again, very inspirational. Just from a whole nother, you know, humanitarian, we are the world kind of thing. That's. That is. That is just awesome. So.

Yeah, well, I mean, I want to give some of the. The credit to, you know, the team at the US Department of State, because, you know, this falls in the. The category of soft diplomacy. And you're right, it was primarily teams and exhibitions. And, you know, I said those are great spectator sports, but let's have, let's have a. Participants for, like, instead of having them sit, you know, in the arena and watch, you know, some soccer players or basketball players, let's get them out running with me.

Yeah. Yeah.

And they said that that's a great idea.

Let's.

Let's try this.

Yeah, I, you know, and also then it makes it not a competitive thing. You know, I mean, if everybody's sitting in the arena, you're going to be, you know, cheering for your side and then feel kind of bad if your side loses or something, you know, and it can kind of not necessarily backfire, but it's. It's a totally different thing than to do it in the context of, you know, come along, run with me. You know, it's not like you're gonna toss the ball out into the seats and have someone come, you know, onto the court and start, you know, doing free throws or something from whatever country you're in. So I just.

Yeah, and you're right.

It's.

It's. It's always, you know, when there's a team, you're always going to root for your team. It's a little bit divisive. It's a little divisive. Even if it's, you know, an exhibition where when you're running, it's. You're united. So it's such a different dynamic. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, they, they obviously they liked it because I've done it three times and we're talking about doing a fourth.

Good.

Moving 20, 26. Yeah, excellent.

Yeah, let's, let's keep in touch. Keep me posted with that. So I would love to help publicize awareness of that, that kind of thing. It's a very perfect fit with some of the. I'm actually just now working with a new entity that's working on building schools in Kyrgyzstan, so.

Oh, Kyrgyzstan.

Yeah. So we need to keep in touch. So, last kind of chunk of questions, just everyday life. What is there, if there is a typical day, or make it an amalgam, what would a typical day or week look like for you when you aren't training for an upcoming race?

I wish I had it. I don't wish I had a typical day or week.

Yeah, no such thing.

I can't. I mean, no, my brother gets up every day at the same time. You know, he goes to the same office. He's such a man of routine. I can't, I. Routine just, it takes the life out of me. I mean, it, it vitalizes him to me. It just kills me. Routine. So, yeah, I like to never run the same path two days in a row. You know, there's always physical activity involved. I think, you know, a healthy body, healthy mind. Yeah, I think you'd prescribe to that as well. So there's always some form of physical activity involved. There really is no typical day. I mean, I drink coffee. People say drink coffee. I drink coffee. I have a glass of wine now and then. I don't. I'm not abstaining from alcohol. I'm not a vegan. I mean, I eat meat. You know, I have a good, pretty clean diet. But there really is no, there's no typical day. I mean, every day is a little, little twist and turn, a little bit different. I might be doing, you know, a book signing one day and then, you know, writing a column the next and then, you know, doing a sponsor event over the weekend, so.

Gotcha.

I've lived, you know, I sometimes I, I guess I take it for granted and I don't want to. I've lived a really great life. I've got to do so many things and it's been so spirited and entertaining and fulfilling, adventurous. And every time I think, okay, you know, that was great, I get more invitations

that's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Way ahead of you. There is no finish line, Dean.

I think my finish line. The pine box. Right?

Yeah, that's right. That's right. Well, and just kind of, I mean this sort of is a veiled reference to, you know, to age and whatnot. Again, doing background, one of the things that you've noted is that you, you know, you've, you've. And you've written about it too. You know, blisters and chafing and toenail loss and all those kinds of things. And you know, I mean, they're sort of, they're not fun, but they're not sidelining injuries. But, but last I heard, you've really never had anything much worse than those kinds of things. Is that streak maintaining?

It's remarkable. Yeah, it is. Over 30. Well, I say over 30 years of running, but I mean, 30 years of running ultramarathons, but a lifetime of running. Because as you talked about, I started when I was a kid. I've never had a running related injury.

Wow. Wow. And I mean, I'm guessing, you know, nature, nurture, biology, blah, blah, blah. But, but I know too because I stalk you and watch your reels and things that there's a lot of. And as you mentioned, like even in your writing process, there's a lot of whatever kind of cross training and things like that. Are those maybe kind of the secret sauce then as the aging process and continuing to do these kinds of distances and do these different kinds of events that has maintained. It makes me so sad. I've known so many people says, well, I don't run anymore because I'm worried about my knees or I don't run anymore because I did this or that because of my hip or because of whatever. But again, it's hard to generalize to other people with different bodies and different lifestyles and different whatevers. But what's your estimate of the ability to remain injury free that might be generalizable to the rest of us mortals?

You know, I think there's, there's not one thing I do. I think it's everything. I think, you know, I encourage people to look at their life through the lens of being the best animal they can be. So, you know, it's not just training. I mean, it's cross training as well. It's diet, it's sleep, it's interpersonal relationships. Try to optimize all those things to be the best beast you can be. And, and I try to do that. And you know, as far as running related injuries, I Think some of it does come down to, you know, biomechanics, like heredity, like you. You acquire your biomechanics. Yeah, from, you know, there, there's a, there's a saying the best thing you can do as a long distance runner is to choose your parents well.

So I think that's good.

But, yeah, I think, you know, I mean, I'm 100% Greek, and my dad always insists we came from the same village, you know, in the hills of Greece that the original marathoner Feedy Petis came from. And I tell him, dad, we grew up in Southern California. I mean, what hillage in, you know, in Greece are we chasing goats around? I grew up surfing the beach.

Yeah, that's good. That's good. So, Dean, we've covered a lot of territory. You've been very generous with your time today, but are there any areas that we haven't covered or anything I've missed that you'd like to add before we wrap?

No. I think this has been a fantastic conversation. I think that, you know, I've given people a glimpse of who I am and what I'm about. And, you know, I applaud you for providing the, the forum that I can do that. But, you know, if people are interested in learning more about me, you know, you just Google my name. I mean, I, you know, I'm on social media, I've got a website, so I try to be visible and I, you know, the content that I create, you know, it always is. It's. It's trying to give something back to the viewer. Like, I don't just post stuff about me pounding my chest. I always try to come up with a quote that I saw that I really liked and post that. Or, you know, if there's something I learned in my training or some exercise or whatever, I try to share that. And, you know, I always encourage people to your earlier point. You know, listen to me, listen to what I'm doing. Listen to everyone. Follow no one. So get a lot of different points, you know, of reference, and then find out what works best for you.

That's good. And I'll just underline that. I mean, again, like I said, you know, I track you all over the place and, and it's now that you've said that, it now occurs to me that so oftentimes you're showcasing somebody else in your feeds and stuff. And I think, again, that just kind of speaks to the kind of person you are. And it's not just a me, me, me kind of thing. So that's also pretty impressive considering what your credentials are. So well, this has been great. I want to let you get back to your life. I want to publicly thank you for your time and your insights and making time for our conversation. You're an inspirational gift to millions over multiple generations and you've done so since high school that 105 laps. You always have a gentlemanly presence and you do everything you do with grace and gratitude and I just want to thank you for all that. Dean.

I appreciate those kind words and one day let's share some footsteps together. That'd be even better.

Awesome. Awesome. As a reminder, listeners can read a summary of this episode and links to the show notes beyond my LinkedIn top voice companion article, along with past guests as well. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I have, and I hope it will help you in your journey to living your life in full. Until next time, Living A Life in Full is a production of Stout Media, a subsidiary of Gordian Knot, LLC. Assistant producer Gracie Wong Music Dan O' Brien executive producer and host Dr. Chris Stout to learn more, stop by our website A Life in Full for Show Notes and please recommend us to your friends and subscribe on your favorite platform. And as for the obligatory disclaimer, this podcast is for general information uses only and does not constitute the practice of psychology, medicine, nutrition or other professional healthcare services, including the giving of medical or psychological advice. No doctor patient relationship is formed. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I do take conflicts of interest seriously. For all of my disclosures as well as show notes, please see livingalifeinfull. Org podcast and my LinkedIn profile. Thanks and until next time.