Michelle McLean's Journey from Miss Universe to a Life of Global Impact, Philanthropy, and Visionary Leadership

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Welcome to another episode of Living Life in Full, the podcast dedicated to exploring the journeys of individuals who are maximizing their human potential, aligning their values with their vocation, and truly making a difference in the world. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout. Step into a world where beauty and talent serve as a gateway to purpose and influence is measured not in in accolades, but in lives uplifted and futures transformed. That is the world of Michelle MacLaine. Michelle stands as a beacon of international influence, renowned for her unwavering commitment to philanthropy, global advocacy, business leadership. She was crowned Miss Universe in 1992, and Michelle became an emblem of grace and purpose, using her platform to elevate causes close to her heart. Children's rights, women, women's empowerment, conservation, and sustainable tourism around the world. From her earliest days in Namibia, Michelle was deeply moved by the country's breathtaking landscapes, vibrant wildlife, and diverse cultures. Winning Miss Universe did not merely mark the beginning of a celebrated public life. It ignited Michelle's mission as a global goodwill ambassador, positioning her as a tireless advocate for investment, eco tourism and education for over three decades. Michelle's philanthropic journey is marked by influential alliances, ambassadorial roles, and she's a former UNICEF and SOS Children's Villages Ambassador for Southern Africa and has worked alongside iconic figures such as Archbishop Desmond Tutu in South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission and the Nelson Mandela Children's Trust. Michelle has hosted the World Economic Forum in Davos, as well as events for President Bill Clinton. She shared her insights as a speaker at the UN World Tourism Conference, the Economic Conference, and the Diamond Conference, and she's been a featured keynote at the UN's General assembly meetings. Michelle's career is a testament to the power of entrepreneurship and service for positive change. She's an international Business officer for the Gondwanda Collection, where she promotes sustainable safari lodges, ecotourism and conservation through the Gondwana Care Trust. As a Director on the Board of Brand Namibia and Global Ambassador and consultant for the Namibian Investment Promotions Development Board, Michelle's strategic vision has helped attract investment, foster international partnerships, and advance Namibia's standing as a premier destination for responsible tourism and sustainable growth. Her accolades are as extensive as her impact. Michelle is the recipient of the Lifetime Achievement Award for Philanthropy from the President of the United States, recognized among the 100 most successful women in business, empowered women and 50 fearless leaders, and top Global Businesswoman of the year for 2025. Driven by her passion for education, Michelle founded the Michelle Maclean University in 2020, a pioneering institution designed to inspire and equip future leaders in Namib and beyond. As a recognized keynote speaker at international conferences, Michelle shares her expertise on children's rights, education and the empowerment of women as entrepreneurs continually advocating for systemic change and opportunity. Now based in Miami, Michelle is married to Gary Bailey, former Manchester United goalkeeper. She's the proud parent of one son, Luke, and three stepchildren, Laura, Jenna, and Ross, and his loving grandmother to six. Her life is one of constant movement, traveling between Africa, the US and other global destinations as she tirelessly promotes education, investment, ecotourism, conservation, the Namibian film industry, and natural Non Conflict Diamonds. Michelle, welcome to the show. It's great to have you on.

Gosh, what an incredible introduction. I'm actually in tears. I didn't realize that I did so much in my short life.

Well, that's right. I mean, it's well deserved, my friend. My gosh, just doing the research on your bonafides and things was just very, very inspirational. And it just, you know, gives me the goosebumps to be able to have you be on the show and. And share your story with others, because I think it's. It's quite inspirational. So I. I did give a, you know, pretty deep background, but one of the things I always like to begin with is a guest's origin story, perhaps the formative years that, you know, kind of shape who we become for you. It was in Namibia, a place of extraordinary natural beauty and cultural richness. Could you maybe tell us about what that was like as growing up there as a young child and teenager?

Yes. Well, as you just explained, it is a land of vast vistas of beauty and diversity. From deserts on both side of the sides of the country, from the coastline, dunes falling into the ocean, to the other side of the country where we have the Kalahari and the Bushmen live, the oldest living tribe in the world. So from a rich, rich culture and being European, living in an African country was very different, I think, from most people's experiences. My country was then Southwest Africa when I was a young girl, and it was a territory of South Africa won over in the Second World War by the British, but it was actually a German colony for many, many decades before. And that's how my heritage from my mom's side came to Namibia. They were investors in the country. In terms, there were diamonds everywhere in Namibia in the early 1900s. You know, they were pioneers of the country. But moving on to my childhood, my father coming from the British side, from South Africa. The whole region in Southern Africa is very much part of the colonial history, very rich in how the country has evolved from its early roots of Africa and the earliest tribes in the world. So I grew up with all this richness of culture and the Western world. We have a very, very safe country still today. I mean, I grew up with our doors wide open. There was a good relationship between the communities, the indigenous tribes as well as the white colonial communities. It was quite bizarre because at the time when I was growing up, apartheid was very rife. South Africa was in sort of a different kind of country from us. Even though we were under there, we were annexed by them. And we were kind of a republic with them. But I never experienced in my childhood any animosity or any racism. I actually went to one of the first schools where we had an integration between the local communities and the white colonialists. And I also grew up with parents that were, you know, incredibly involved in community work and charities and uplifting and educating communities. And the apartheid era, having been very much holding the ethnic groups, the indigenous groups, to control them. It was a very. In many ways, an incredibly sad part of our history. And I grew up with that, but very oblivious to that because there was such an interaction and community and understanding and caring. So when I then left Namibia as a young girl, well, you know, let's go back to my childhood. So I grew up traveling the country. My father was very insistent that we saw, you know, the country. We understood conservation. In fact, before he became a chiropractor and studied in the United States, when I was a baby, he actually studied chiropractic in Davenport, Iowa. So from the first four years of my life, I actually lived in Davenport, Iowa.

Wow.

And then we. We came back to Namibia, where my dad established his practice as a chiropractor and was very unknown. I mean, Palmer College and in Iowa, Davenport is very much, you know, was the founding chiropractic university. So he had quite a challenge, you know, to get people to understand that cricking necks and posture was actually, you know, something that you need to do for your health.

Right.

So when we moved back to Namibia, he was very. He. Before then, he was in conservation. He was a geologist. So he had traveled the country extensively. And I remember, although education is so important and it's important in our lives right now, he was insistent that he would pull us, my sisters, out of school from time to time and do road trips and explore the country and the animals. And he would. You know, many people would say, but how can you do that? They need to stay in school. They need education. And he said, but this is life education. Yeah, this is important.

Wow.

So that's. That's how I grew up.

That's pretty idyllic. I mean, after this, we need to talk about getting you a book deal or something. This is. I just. It's. It's so enchanting to hear that. It's. It's interesting, too, thinking I didn't realize that about your father. I mean, what a, you know, an amazing fellow he must be. And the. I remember I had done some work years ago. Gosh. Oh, my gosh. I bet. Pushing 30 years ago in South Africa. And I went to the University of Pretoria there and, you know, met with the medical school and whatnot and also had an opportunity to meet with natural healers in Sangoma, I think they were called. And it was just, you know, kind of fascinating to kind of see the cultural, you know, diversity vis a vis, know, medicine and healing and, you know, bringing that into the, you know, 20th, 21st century with science and medicine and universities and whatnot. So it sounds like your father was maybe one of the early pioneers of bringing other kinds of, you know, treatments and interventions to the southern, you know, part of, of Africa. So, so let's, let's take it from there now. You know, many people know you as Miss Universe 1992, and obviously your story began long before. Tell us, how does one, you know, there's, there must be like you become Miss Namibia and then it goes from there. But maybe talk about the origin story around that aspect and that component of your life.

Yeah, well, I have to state categorically that becoming Miss Universe was, you know, totally like, it was, was not something I had planned or had always yearned to be a Miss Universe or a Miss Namibia. I was actually in the modeling industry from a very young age. So in Namibia being a very remote country, you know, and I used to go hunting and fishing with my dad. And by the time I was 13, my mum kind of said, you know, you, you're a real tomboy. I, I, I get that you like to be on survival and, you know, you enjoy this, but it's time to become a lady, you know.

So now the maternal influence starts to get in.

Yes, she was concerned that I was going to forever be traipsing behind my father, you know, going into, into the, the mountains and the savannas and deserts. But so it really was a trajectory of my life in terms of my mom sent me to a deportment class. In those days you went to modeling school just to be able to walk and, you know, to learn to be like a lady. I entered one of these courses and it happened to be a scout from South Africa. And I won this particular course that we did. And at the age of 13, she encouraged my parents to send me to South Africa to start modeling. So during my holidays I was still in school and I would finish, obviously, and during the holidays I'd go and model in South Africa in Cape Town and Johannesburg. And by the time I was 14, I was scouted by an international agency in Europe. So at the age of 14, I went to Madrid for three months. I missed a first part of chunk of my school year.

Wow.

And I navigated my way as a young 14 year old. Obviously the agencies looked after you and I stayed with family, you know, host families. But I started to realize that my, my interest in traveling the world and exploring was, you know, was, was just. It bit me and I was going to be that person forever. So I used to go into the museums in Madrid and, you know, the Goya Museum. And I, I started expanding my knowledge on the world outside of Namibia. And then, you know, just fast forward, I still went back to Namibia. I finished my schooling. I actually finished my schooling by crushing the last two years into one because I wanted to go back to do, you know, I was invited overseas to have contractual work for different agencies. And I went back at the age of 16 back to Europe. I modeled in Switzerland, in Greece, in France, in Italy, and I traveled for a year. So, you know, the age of sort of 17, I decided, okay, I've seen a lot of the world at 17. Yeah.

As one does. Yeah. Wow.

From that perspective, I thought, okay, well, I've seen a lot of Europe, but I was still very much attracted to, as you mentioned earlier, the holistic lifestyle of the way I was brought up. My father and mother being my mom, was nutritionist, so they worked together collaboratively in the practice. And I wanted to come back and actually study massage therapy. So I came back home for a little break and then I said to my parents, I've got some money for modeling. I'm going to go to Japan and study a very special form of massage and ancient healing. And so that was my idea. Then I stayed for a little while longer and I got involved in triathlons with a whole bunch of guy friends of mine from school. And while we were training and I was spending a few more months there, they said to me, oh, there's a Miss Namibia pageant you could enter and you can win a car and a computer course. That was intriguing because I was just about to turn 18 and what better way to start your life with a platform of having, you know, some monetary assistance and a car. They, they actually made a bet with me and it was on a bet that I entered Miss Namibia. I had no idea what about,

So

I entered with my eyes closed and I just went, okay. And I remember at the pageant, 5 and 6 of, you know, my, my guy friends were just clapping and laughing and celebrating with me. And then I won the pageant and I was like a deer in the headlights. Oh, I had no idea what this entailed.

Wow. So what did it entail?

Yeah, well, I found out very quickly. So the director of the pageant had said to me, and bear in mind, our country was only two years independent at that stage. So Namibia had only been known as Namibia since 1990, and this was in 1991 when I won Miss Namibia. So I was pushed into this world of, okay, now sit and watch these videos of what pageants are about. You are going to represent our country on the international platform. It's a beauty contest. It's nothing you unused to. You've been modeling for years. And I looked at this, and I was like, well, how many pageants do I have to go to? And in those days, these pageants were much smaller. So a representative from one country, certainly from Namibia, would go to the Miss Africa pageant, then the Miss World, and then the Miss Universe pageant. So I had three pageants ahead of me. This was now my year ahead.

Wow.

I learned as much as I could about pageants. I spoke to my modeling agencies that were still wanting me to do certain, you know, campaigns and things, and my modeling agencies. In those days, models and beauty queens were seen as absolutely separate industries, like it is today, which where, you know, most of the beauty queens and Miss Universe, Miss Worlds have actually been models and actually know what it's like to get endorsements and to work the international stage. So all my modeling agencies dropped me around the world.

Wow.

The agencies in New York, the agencies in Europe. And they basically said, you're on your own. If you want to be a beauty queen, you just go ahead and do it. Wow. So I said, okay, well, I've got nothing to lose. When I'm finished this year, I'm going to still go and do my massage therapy in Japan and do my holistic healing. And then the trajectory of doing pageants just, you know, swept me away. I went to this Africa pageant that was in the first month after I won, and I really wasn't prepared. I didn't know what to expect. I saw all these other ladies around me. They had wardrobes that, you know, were endless. They'd been groomed since they were 15. So the first pageant was a little bit of surprise to me and not the greatest experience. So we went to a country in Africa. There were a couple of us ladies that were competing. And within the first. We were supposed to be there for two weeks. Within the first week, our passports were taken away from us. And it was very subtly done. It's like, no, we're going to look after your passports. But six weeks later, we were still there and one or two of the girls reached out to their countries and said, we are being kept hostage. We are actually here on display for the sponsors to please the sponsors and they've extended the length of this competition.

Wow.

It was, it was. You know, I've been used to the modeling industry, so it wasn't like harassment or. Those experience were not. They weren't new to me. But being held literally hostage in your. In a foreign country in Africa was, was very scary.

Yeah.

So we got through that. I got home safely after six weeks and saying to my director, Namibia, I am never going to another pageant again. You have got kidding me.

Yeah, exactly. What did your parents say? I mean, that must have been terrifying for them as well.

Yes, yes. I mean, you know, having really trusted me in the process of modeling overseas, and even though I was very much surrounded by drugs and eating disorders and, you know, older men definitely targeting you, they knew that I could look after myself and I'd come back safely from Europe. So they just gave me support and they said, you know, this is a diplomatic issue because when I went to my ambassador at the time in this country who was representing Namibia, he basically said to me, we've just become independent and we have to form relationships with this country, so you're going to have to stick it out.

Wow.

I didn't have any diplomatic help.

Wow.

But they knew, they knew that I was there, so I knew that I was safe, but I just wasn't enjoying the experience.

Wow. Okay.

But that was, that really. That really grew me into my, my attitude towards the world. Not, you know, seeing pageants as something that can be used for good, but also modeling and the pageant industry, how fickle it can be and how important it is to navigate your way through it with the right mentors.

It seems like, you know, and I know you and I have talked in the past about these kinds of things too, that, you know, there, there seems to be much more transparency and visibility to these kinds of things. So I can't imagine, you know, back in the early 90s where all of this stuff seems, I mean, you have a certain, you have a certain level of moxie and expertise by virtue of what you. With your modeling early on career, which is kind of amazing to think about, you know, your age and what you're able to manage with such maturity, but then to deal with something like this that's kind of even, you know, the, the antes upped on the international stage and to, to hear back of like, well, you know, just you know, mind your P's and Q's, but, you know, this is. This is what it's like to become an emerging country as well, too. And that here you are a part of that, and, you know, from the insider's kind of perspective, is just. Just amazing. Michelle. Wow. So that then, is the Africa part of it. And then tell us how that then leads to the. Then Miss World. What happens next?

Yeah. So coming back home, I took a few months working in Namibia, still doing a bit of modeling here and there, but working a lot on social projects. And I really grew my passion for the local people in Namibia, the needs that the people had, especially, you know, in the conservancies and the, you know, the. The lack of education that was given over the decades. So I was then asked to. Well, it was part of my job to go and represent Namibia at the Miss World, which was a couple of months later. And it was also an experience of, you get to the pageant. There are 95 girls, women from around the world. They've all been groomed and trained, and they've got the endless wardrobes. I came from a small country in Namibia, and although I knew a lot of designers that helped me, I never had the wardrobes and the exposure that they had on this platform. So I learned a lot in that process. And just observing, I wasn't really thrilled with what was happening at the pageant at that time. There were a few sort of controversies. There was definitely nepotism. You know, there were certain countries that were put forward, whereas where the hell was. And people called us. Namibia, Zambia. Wow. I had a huge job to try and, you know, educate the world that I was actually, you know, I actually came from a country in Africa, and it actually exists. But it was a good learning. It was a good groundwork for me in terms of just enjoying the pageant, understanding what women from around the world and all of their adversities in terms of their countries. I mean, some of these women from South America, they were literally treated as, I want to coach couch this in the nicest way, that they were almost used as escorts for politicians. And they were given an opportunity to enter a pageant, and they were made to win so that they could represent the country on an international stage. And, I mean, these are some of the things that people out there don't know about. And I'm not talking about the pageants today. I'm talking about pageants in the 90s and certainly the 80s, where a lot of these women were actually kept woman. They would have to go back to, you know, their lifestyle of being a partner for a politician or a gang member or a good. And a lot of these women share these stories with me that they were so desperate to win because if they didn't win, they would lose that lifestyle and they would lose the money that they would get for their families and their parents. So it, I mean, it opened up a whole new scary world for me.

Yeah. It is not what, you know, it appears. Oh, my gosh. Wow.

So. So that was quite frightening for me to see on, on that level. Of course, then, you know, the pageant went on and I came forth in the pageant and I was actually just very grateful that I didn't win and, and that I could move on to, you know, go back to Namibia and do some more charity work. So I went back and I said once again to my director, I'm never going to another pageant again. You know, it is, it is corrupt. It is, you know, it postulates that it's showing women these opportunities, which, you know, the Miss World and the Miss Universe do. And as I will move on to talking about Miss Universe, it gave me the most amazing platform in my life to be able to utilize if it is the right organization. So, you know, it really was up to me to make the best of this experience. So my director said to me, well, you actually have a contract and you actually represent Namibia, so just go to the Miss Universe pageant. Just have fun, just represent us, you know, and, and that's all we can say. Just you go there, represent us and have fun. So I took this mindset of, okay, I'm going to this pageant, I'm not going to be the best dressed lady, but I've now got a hell of a lot of experience under the belt.

Yeah.

Should I say?

Yeah. Wow.

And that's what led me to, I think, having a mindset of going to the Miss Universe pageant in Bangkok, Thailand, a couple of months later, just before I was going to give up my Miss Namibia title. And I had the most wonderful experience. Not only because Thailand and its people and the organization, amazing, the Miss Universe organization was just another level. You know, it was paramount communication. It was international, it was well run, it was professional. There was nothing about this underlying, you know, favoritism, nepotism, which country was going to win. So I really felt I let my guard down and I really felt that if this was going to be a part of my future, my legacy, that I was just going to embrace it and have fun. And that's pretty much what I did.

Wow. I'm so relieved to hear that it was so qualitatively different from some of the experiences that you had had before. So then maybe kind of step us through it. There's certain performative kinds of things and whatnot. So what, you get to meet a whole. Did you have familiar people, women that you had seen in other competitions, or was this all a new group of people or. Tell us about that part, too.

Oh, yes. No, actually, very interestingly so. The bigger countries that always go to pageants, like Colombia and Argentina, they usually have two different pageants. There's, you know, one where the lady goes to Miss World, and there's one where the lady represents at Miss Universe for Argentina. But in smaller countries like Namibia and New Zealand and Ireland, there are, you know, you basically represent your country and you go to all the pageants like I did. So, yes, in my. In my year at Miss Universe, there were probably four or five women, especially my closest friend at the time was from New Zealand, Lisa. And so we got to. And there was Miss Belgium as well. Miss Belgium had actually been with me in Africa as well. So there were quite a few stories we could share. And we were all in the top five at Miss Universe. So it almost, if I look back now, I haven't really reflected on it, but all those experiences we had must have, you know, given us this opportunity and this. What would you say, this aura, to be able to actually move into the top five of the Ms. Universe pageant.

Wow. So then we go through this. It's the end ending ceremony, so to speak, and you get named Miss Universe. What was that like?

So during the pageant, I was having a lot of fun with all the ladies, and I had no. It was very, very competitive that year. Miss Venezuela, Miss Colombia, Miss India, they were all, you know, extremely. They. They were the most popular. They had the most, I guess, experience. And when I was called out in the top 10, so I had no expectations at all when I was called out in the top 10, I had an immediate sort of emotional and spiritual process where I said, well, all our scores are going to be deleted now and we're going to start from scratch. And I've had years and years of experience on stages around the world. So why. Why couldn't I win? This could be fun, could be a great, you know, adventure. And it was in that moment. And I don't know if sports people experience that or people who have reached a certain, you know, you're not expecting it, but it just. It's almost like it's. It's Coming from the universe, it's just literally being downloaded into you. And I just. I lost my nervousness. I lost my expectation of the process. And I said, I'm just going to go out, listen to the questions, answer and represent the best way I can. And to my absolute shock, when I found myself in the top three, I looked at Miss India and Miss Columbia next to me, and they were the most popular ladies in the pageant. India was called second princess. So third runner up. There was Miss Columbia and I standing together, and one of us had to win. And I looked at her, and you can actually see on the footage, I mouthed to her, congratulations. I know you're gonna win, and I'm so happy for you. And when my name was called out, it was just, you're gonna. You're gonna really laugh at this. The first thing I thought of was my mom saying to me before I left, she said, please pack up all your stuff in your room, put them in boxes, because you're not coming back. And I said, mom, that's a horrible thing to say. I'm not coming back. Nothing's gonna happen to me. No, she said, you're gonna win. And the first thought I had as the crown was put on my head was, oh, my gosh. I didn't pack up my room. My mom is gonna be. How did she know? Oh, so. So it was. It was just like you. Most people say, oh, you know, thoughts go through your mind of all the grandeur and everything you're going to do in the next year and. And how. Just, you know, relieved you are that you won. I was just like, oh, my gosh, I still haven't packed my boxes up.

Michelle, you are. You are so down to earth and so wholesome. You're graciously, you know, saying to Miss Columbia, you know, congratulations. Oh, my gosh.

No, it was a very interesting experience. And then from that moment on, you literally just whisked away on this red carpet. You know, you have travel managers, home managers. You're on an airplane twice a week on different continents. I mean, on a Tuesday, I would be in Indonesia. On the Thursday, I'd be in Colombia. And although it sounds glamorous, it was. You know, you're traveling alone. You're a young girl. I was one of. One of the youngest Miss Universes ever at the age of 19.

Wow.

So, you know, there's a lot to deal with and the political aspect. So just to give you reference, when I left Southern Africa to represent Namibia at the Miss Universe pageant, it was May in 1992, South Africa was having quite a few riots and there was quite a lot of disturbance because it was the lead up to Mandela being freed and what the country was going to look like. So I left with a lot of that sort of past apartheid, but moving into the new legacy of the new world in Southern Africa. Went to Bangkok. We were so sheltered during our four week stay there that we didn't know that there were riots going on in Thailand. There was something about the king and you know, and there was a political party moving against. So they were very worried about our safety, but we had no idea. So when I won in Bangkok, this was so embarrassing because the first thing the media asked me was, so you represent an African country and you're white. So tell us about that. So that was like the first sort of dig that I got. Then they said to me, what did you think about all the riots in Thailand while you were here? Oh boy, you seem to have riots wherever you go. We're talking about from a political stance and on an international level. I didn't look like I was informed enough and I had to really struggle back, you know, to get my confidence back again, that I wasn't just a silly 19 year old girl. That these things actually take a lot of effort and a lot of guidance around you. Especially when you're traveling from one country to the next. You can't know everything about the political aspects and the geographical constraints and you just. Or societal constraints. You just don't have that knowledge. Yeah, but I learned very, very quickly. So by the time I was whisked off, I didn't go home for another two months. So you taken straight to the place where the Miss Universe office is. In my day it was in Los Angeles. It has to date gone, you know, from Los Angeles to New York when Donald Trump owned it, which we can certainly talk about as well because I met him in my year, but in my day it was in Los Angeles. So I arrived in Los Angeles and what do you think is waiting for me?

What?

The riots.

Oh gosh.

The whole of LA is on fire.

Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.

So, you know, so. And it was also very racially charged. So everything was kind of. And I was, I was just caught up in this, in the storm, but navigated my way through that. And then one of my first press conferences and you know, New Yorkers are known to be very direct.

And

so I had my first press conference at the Plaza Hotel and the press was asking me all these things about the fact that I'm white, representing an African country, and about the riots and, you know, underprivileged people around the world. So I, yeah, I had to do my homework very quickly.

Wow.

But I'll tell you a funny story. Walking into the Plaza Hotel, the reason why Donald Trump can never forget me is I am from an African country, right? And we didn't have revolving doors. So I walk into the Plaza Hotel with my crown and my sash very proud. But as I pushed the revolving door, I didn't realize it was automated and created such a suction that it pushed. I pushed it and pushed it and it pulled me into the foyer of the hotel so fast that I lost balance and I fell on the floor and I slid along the floor, just dropped. I slid.

Oh, golly.

A few seconds later, it feels like minutes I was lying there thinking, now how do I redeem myself from this position? So all I did was lie on my side, put my, my head on my elbow, and I went, tada. Here I am. Oh, my God. So I was very surprised that I wasn't on the front of the newspapers the next day, but Donald Trump was standing in the foyer and greeted me and said, well, you certainly know how to make an entrance.

Oh, golly.

And there were many other interesting stories from my year as Miss Universe, but that was certainly the beginning of the funniest.

Wow. Wow. That's. Again, it just, it kind of speaks to your, you know, your fortitude and wholesomeness, you know, that, that, you know, I mean, other people, that would have just been such a ruinous kind of thing, but, but not for you. So. Well, and it seems like, again, you know, you, you know the history and have the expertise in this that I lack. But it seems to me, as very much the outsider, that, like, winning a Miss Universe pageant is like a pinnacle for a lot of people, but for you, you really kind of turned it into a launch pad. And like I mentioned in the intro, I mean, you, you focused on education and philanthropy and things like that. So I want to maybe talk, you know, unpack a lot of those kinds of things. And from some of the background research that I did, you can't always necessarily trust the, the factual nature of what you find online. But you have a children's trust, is that correct?

Yes, yes, I was able to establish the Michelle McLean Children Trust, so. So I think one of most important parts of being able to have a title of Miss Universe was that I was given this opportunity to establish the Michelle McCain Children Trust in Namibia. And the then Director, who is the one who encouraged me to keep going, keep going to all these pageants. He facilitated and got the. The, you know, ensure the opportunity that I could establish a foundation in Namibia because he knew that it was really based on the last answer that I gave. We were asked, what would you do if you were made leader of your country tomorrow? And yes, it sounds like the. The usual sort of world peace and I'm going to save the children. But because I worked, because I had worked in charity and I had been part of growing up with that, you know, philanthropic sort of nature, I said in my last answer I would look after the children because they are the future leaders. And it does sound very, you know, something that any beauty queen would say.

Right, A scripted. Yeah, exactly.

But I can honestly say 34 years later, I've stuck to my commitment and. And I was able to, through the help of many business people and certainly the director at the time of the Miss Namibia, to establish the foundation and never look back. And it is my biggest passion besides my family. I just, you know, I'm still busy with the work today, the initiatives, the projects. We built the Michelle McLean Primary Schools. It was in an area where children were walking 5-8km.km a day. We have that as a legacy, a flagship project. And I've had initiated hundreds of projects over the years. When Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie had their baby in Namibia, Shiloh, you know, they were protected very much from the media. They then made money from the sale of the first picture of their baby. And my foundation, the Children Trust, was. Was given some of those funds to be able to initiate 10 projects with them. You know, so there's been many wonderful experiences over the years, and I would never have been able to have that visibility and that momentum if I wasn't an international celebrity or had a profile like Miss Universe.

Yeah, I truly respect that. I mean, taking that as an opportunity to be able to build these kinds of things and as a. As a door opener, so to speak. And you know, and just also kind of knowing now a little bit better about your background, it just makes, you know, perfect sense with that. So. And speaking to that being sort of an entree to, you know, a variety of other kinds of people and situations. You. I mentioned in the intro that you worked with Desmond Tutu. What was that post apartheid or tell us what that involvement was?

Oh, absolutely incredible. When I so often, the year of Miss Universe, I'll just go back a little bit and traveling the world. I stayed in Los Angeles and I was Given an opportunity to do acting, the doors were already open. I. I thought, wow, this is a fascinating world. Until I got into it and the whole thing of the couch auditions, it was real. And I guess I was a bit spoiled having been in the Miss Universe, on a red carpet for a whole year, being given everything, supported in so many ways by the organization and by people, and really revered. So when I went into the acting world, I had to start off like everybody else. When I went into auditions, there were 300, 600 women that looked just like me. Tall, you know.

Right.

And after a couple of months, I said to my agent, you know, I'm not sure I'm cut out for this because. And he said, yeah, well, a couple of the producers called me afterwards and you wouldn't really, you know, listen to them. And I said, but I went in with a script that said, she is the till lady behind the groceries store till. But what they wanted me to be was the stripper. And I was like, I didn't come to read that part. So. So the, the honest truth, truth was these producers would say to me, well, honey, if you don't want to read this part, there are 300 women out there that are desperate and really want this part. So, you know, don't waste our time.

Wow.

And then after about a year and a half of this, I realized. And I, I even had a Baywatch audition that. And they, they said to me, well, we think that you might be good for the part, but I think you need to have a breast augmentation to be able to fit in with it.

Oh, my gosh.

And at the age of 19, I was like, I won Miss Universe with these assets the way they are.

Wow.

I'm pretty damn sure that unless I want to fall into this trap, I don't need to be doing this. So I walked away. I said to my parents, although I have opportunities here in LA and in America and on the international stage in acting, I think I'm going to come home and try my hand at television and just, you know, just come home and just do my children trust and raise the. And do projects and, and just recalibrate and see where I want to go from here, which is what I did. I went back to Southern Africa. I got into television. I was a big fish in a small pond, which suited me perfectly. I could use my accolade for positive work and for my career. And I wasn't subjected to being in LA where I was a B, B grade, C grade actress. So I'm grateful that I made that decision.

Well, and also potential fodder for abuse and mistreatment. You know, I mean, you seem to have very successfully navigated those risks, you know, in. In the prior years. I'm. I'm glad to hear that. That. I mean, it almost seems like that was like a spark to then be able to push you, you know, without any kind of, you know, hesitation into the. The work that you built your career on, thank goodness, is absolutely.

I think that I realized that authenticity for me was much more important than fame, and I'd already had a taste of fame with. With the Miss Universe. It was almost like it was a gift, a blessing. That was. Well, it's not almost. It was a gift and a blessing given to me that I got a very, you know, slight little experience of what it would be like to be an international celebrity forever for life and be hounded, and your life is just not your own. You don't know if your partner's choosing you because you are famous or wealthy.

Right.

Just for you. So I. I'm really grateful that I made those decisions.

So that was then sort of the springboard to have opportunities with. With Tutu and UNICEF and those kinds of things to unpack that for us. How. What. What those involvements were.

Oh, yes, I digressed. I'm so sorry.

No, no, this is. That's. That's how our show goes, Michelle.

No, that's. That really was then. Then the trajectory for me to go to South Africa, work in television. And then I had, during my year, met with Nelson Mandela at the Olympic Games just after I won. So I had had a relationship with him. He was actually the one who really encouraged me with his Nelson Mandela Children Trust. He encouraged me with my Michelle McLean Children Trust. And I. I really had a wonderful experience with him. And let me tell you, that man was an absolute saint.

He.

He was just. I mean, obviously not. He's still a human being, but his aura and everything was just, you know, it. It really inspired me that Africa, South Africa could go to another level. And then Desmond Bishop, Desmond Tutu was also, you know, he knew about my profile. They were very supportive of me representing Southern Africa. They were proud of me. And I got to do work with him with the SOS Children's Villages. And I was especially proud to be working with him because he was, you know, the. He was the architect of the truth and reconciliation. Right, Mitzi? Yeah. And. And we had so many wonderful conversations together. But I also went to Swaziland with him, and we opened a new SOS Children's Village. And so I was aligned with the kind of people that that were, were going to be, you know, my, my mentors, my guides for the future. And when I saw the kindness and the genuine love and compassion that both Nelson Mandela and Bishop Tutu has for the world, you know, that just inspired me even more.

You know, it's such a nice 180 degree difference from some of the dark side, the underbelly of the negative kinds of things that you were, you know, seeing and you know, people trying to pull you into or you know, some of your colleagues from the past pageants that, you know, are kind of involved with it. So, so refreshing and wonderful to hear those parts of it. So I know too, back when we were first talking about this, that you and I share a history of working with the World Economic Forum back, back in the day, a million years ago, I was what they called a glt, a global Leader for tomorrow. And then as a faculty and a speaker and stuff for a number of years after. But you've hosted events in Davos and done also hosted things like with former President Bill Clinton. Tell us what it's like to have that front row seat in global policy conversations and your experiences in Davos.

Well, I think being, being a young woman and also, you know, having had the opportunity to be on an international platform, I got a lot of, I guess, guidance and I just self study in terms of international politics, in terms of human rights. So I felt like I was, you know, versed in a lot of things. But when I went to the World Economic Forum, I realized that there was so much more to learn about the world and how powerful people can do good things. But I'd also learned they can also do negative things to the world. And so that experience of the World Economic Experience Forum really opened my eyes to the collaboration of so many, you know, world thinkers, leaders and being able to host an event for Bill Clinton, I mean he is, you know, everyone has, has had their challenges in life. Everyone's human. I really think that somebody like Bill Clinton or Barack Obama or Donald Trump has got to their positions because there is a real need in the world for visionaries and leaders like that. And we have to respect that their trajectories as well have purposed our world, have driven our world. Whether it's maybe sometimes in negative directions, but also in very positive, positive changes.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it, you know, it also speaks to your ability to be so versatile with the kinds of things that, you know, like you talk about Self study. I mean, it's, it's sort of the aspects that you were mentioning earlier of needing to really be kind of a quick study around, you know, global geopolitics, whatever country you're going to wind up in, you know, next Thursday kind of a thing. And I think you've, you're kind of a role model again from the research that I've done of, you know, your history of being able to consistently do that, you know, over the course of your, your entire career. And one thing, I know you've got a plane to catch in a little bit, but I have a couple more questions if you're good for time. And an area I don't want to miss talking to you about is, is your whole involvement with ecotourism and conservation and safari and things like that. So can you maybe tell us kind of set a context for that and, and what those involvements are like?

Yes. Well, I am very passionate, as you know, about Namibia as a whole, but also the philanthropic side and how we elevate communities, educate children. So for me, it was a natural progression from having moved to America 13 years ago with my husband Gary and our four children. I knew that coming to America again would give an opportunity for me to promote my country internationally. So now I'm working very closely as the North American business officer and representative for the Gondwana Collection, Namibia, as well as the Namibia Tourism Board. And as you mentioned, I've done work as well for the Namibia Investment Promotions Development Board. So I work very much on the basis of promoting Namibia, our eco tourism. You know, Namibia is one of the only countries besides Costa Rica in the world that has conservation in our constitution. And two thirds of our country is conservancies. And so to look after the indigenous people in those conservancies, whether it's up north in the Namib Desert, in Kalahari with the Bushmen. It is really, really important for us, you know, that when we promote Namibia to the world, that sustainability and ecotourism are not taken out of context of just, oh, it's just putting solar panels up and getting fresh water. It really is about educating and upskilling the, the local communities to work together to be able to create a tourism industry and to sustain a tourism industry which the country depends on. It's, it's our biggest industry in the country, our biggest, biggest promoter of our gdp. And so it's important I find sustainability, the word sustainability, and recently spoke at the International Luxury Hotel association here in Las Vegas that the luxury tourism is actually so important. For a rising international tourism country like Namibia that has grown by 12% by the way, since 20, beginning of 2025. So we have a huge canvas to be able to explore this opportunity. When luxury travel is looked at, especially from the North American perspective, you know, from my perspective from Gondwana collection, Namibia is that we are saying Namibia is one of the countries in the world. It's one of the safest countries. The road in of front infrastructure is the best in Africa. We offer the tourists and, and the fact that it's low dental density, you're not going on a safari and there's 30 cars in a row looking at one. It is. And, and that's unfortunately what Kenya and South Africa have become.

Yeah, yeah.

Namibia still has that uniqueness, that authenticity, that immersion into the culture of the country. And we have 11 different, different ethnic groups and 13 different languages.

Wow.

There is so much to explore. And when I speak to my tourists and clients that coming that are coming to Namibia or have been to Namibia, they leave with a part of Namibia in their heart. I mean, Will Smith recently said he knows that God exists, but when he went to Namibia, he knows now where God lives.

Oh man, what a great plug. Wow.

And we've heard that and, and Hamilton, the F1 driver has come to Namibia. And you know, so we, we need to really enhance the fact that Namibia is so uniquely special and diverse from deserts to the Zambezi region and the big five. But most importantly, we are friendly people and we're a safe country. And more and more people these days, you know, you see all these safety alerts that are being given out by countries. Canada and America said, you know, don't go to certain countries. We don't want to be on that list.

Right.

Because we need tourism to really grow our country and our future leaders.

Yeah. And it, you know, it makes me think too. I just read an article in the Wall Street Journal too that I think just perfectly fits with Namibia as well. Is the kind of a, maybe a hybrid or a blend with the luxury aspect, but then also the adventure aspect. I mean, the article talked about how this one person's experience was that they wanted to do all these different kinds of activities and they had to try and figure out, well, we want to go here, but then we've got to stitch together this activity and that activity and is it okay for kids and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now there are these entities that are coming online, which it sounds like Namibia is right perfectly smack dab in the middle of to be able to have those experiences where you can have the culture, you can have the beauty, you can have the nature, you can have the adventure, you can do it in a very comfortable kind of way and kind of one stop shopping and then just being able to fall in love with the country as well.

You've hit the nail on the head there. An adventure in Namibia is just incredible. As you said, you know, you can go with an RV on the sand dunes, you can have immersive experiences under the starlight. I just recently was in a place called Saucers Flay in Namibia. It has the least light pollution in the world. Maybe besides one or two places in the United States or in South America because we don't have towns and cities, cities for a thousand kilometers around us. And that is, you know, besides the adventure. Namibia is one of the only countries in the world that promotes self driving because it's safe. You know, we have a very, I mean almost a non existence crime rate. It's petty crime. You know, don't leave your valuables in a vehicle. You would not do that anywhere.

Right, sure.

So but also you're saying that diversity, diversity of experiences. Then we have the walking with the desert elephants, the ex, you know, experiential times with the bushman people, how they lived authentically thousands and thousands of years ago and still do today. So I mean we could, we could be here for at least 10 hours.

Yeah, we need to do it with visuals as well too. Yeah. Wow. Well, and again, I want to be respectful of your time and don't want you to miss your plane, but I, you have had such a, you know, an amazing, you know, life filled of experiences and people that you've worked with and you know, had, you know, just mentorships and things like that. Is there anyone that perhaps stands out of who's influenced you or your work the most or been a mentor to you? I mean, it almost sounds like your director way back when, who kind of kept, you know, pushing you towards doing things that you maybe I'm not so sure. I really don't want to. But you've done Mandela and you've done Tutu, et cetera. But is there, you know, or maybe it's a team of people, but you know, who's, who has served as mentors to you that, you know, can lay claim to who you are today?

I would have to say on a spiritual level and looking at Mandela and his compassion for the world. And even after incarceration, after 27 years, he did not have a bone of hatred in Him, I think that was the core learning for me, going into the world as a professional woman, being in the spotlight. What, you know, I had to really internalize, reflect. What is it that I am going to do in my life? What is my legacy going to be? And if I had to say on not the spook spiritual level and world platform level, Mandela certainly stands out to me. I mean, I still have a whole. I've got a beautiful portrait of him in, in our house and I always have a candle there. And, and, but I have to say as well, in my formative years, my parents were my inspiration and mentors. They still are compassionate, kind human beings. My father as a chiropractor would give healthcare to people without asking for money. They would come and give him, you know, a goat or a chicken or a pile of wood as a thank you. And I think I learned from a very young age that and I do have a huge support system, whether it was in my pageant years, was my director, my family, and certainly today when it comes to guiding my, my life and my next level of trajectory and, and you know what that legacy is going to look like. My husband Gary has, has been my, you know, inspiration and my biggest support, you know, to be able to move to America, raise funds in America. Because now I've established the Michelle McLean foundation in the US where we can drive for funds through to Namibia to the project. And I'm going to changing. It's going to be a different. It's going to be the same ethos as the Michelle McLean children dress, but I'm changing it to the Michelle MacLean foundation with many new projects that we are launching now in Namibia in the new year. So very, very excited about that. And of course, I must say, my biggest inspiration in my life has not been my accolade of being Miss Universe. It's being a mother. It's being a mother to my son Luke. He makes me proud every day. And all my children and now six grandchildren and we're going to spend Christmas with all of them.

Oh, that's wonderful. That is wonderful. Well, Michelle, maybe to kind of wrap up for young people and maybe especially women who see your journey and dream of blending like as you have business, advocacy, global leadership. Is there advice that you would give to them?

I would say 100% that it's important to know who you are, what your morals, ethics, goals and aspirations are, to really internalize and reflect on that first. Because whatever you project to the world is going to come back to you. Are you. And I always say there's, there's nothing wrong with a young woman wanting to be famous and, and be in Hollywood. There's nothing wrong with that at all. But it's got to be an individual decision. And as a mentor to, to many women and many groups of young people, I would say to find out really. And, and you, you change as you go along. I didn't have the same aspirations at 19 than I do now, but to really have a base of where you come from and try and project what is your future going to look like? What is your legacy going to look like? What do you want to leave behind? What do you want people to say about you? Not that it's an ego thing, but that it's have I done, have I done a good thing? Have I done something positive for our planet, for, for humanity? And if that's not in your realm, not in your wheelhouse and you just want to make money and I have no, you know, I don't judge people on that. They, they can do that. I just don't find it very easy to be in that space. Yeah, but it's, it's, it's. No, yeah, it's, it's, you know, I have to say that with young people, I find them sometimes, especially in southern Africa, they feel very hopeless. There's a very low employment rate that we have in our country. And so to build up that self esteem and that hope for the future, you can create your own future, but don't try and look at somebody else next to you and try and emulate them. You can have mentors, but be your own authenticity person and within your own morals and ethics and your desires and dreams.

I really love that and that, that is poetic and you know, certainly is your brand. Michelle. So what are some of the best ways that listeners can learn more, learn more about your foundation, things like that connect what are. And we put these into the show notes.

Well, you can always go and email me. I'm very open to hearing everyone's stories and inspirations. You can email me michellemichellemclean IO for anything in tourism and wanting to create a wonderful curated itineraries to come and visit Namibia and go on safari. You can contact michellemclainc.com and I have my website, the Michelle Maclean Children Foundation. That's mmcf.org.na Great, good.

We'll put all that into the show notes too. If people are driving in their cars or going for a run and listening this. So Michelle, your life is such a powerful example of living not just fully, but meaning fully to put in a little pun there. And I just, I want to thank you for sharing your journey and your wisdom and your vision with us today.

Chris. Thank you as well. I followed your your legacy of what you've done and I really admire you that you are able to bring out the best in individuals around the world and really give them a platform to be able to share their stories. So thank you for giving me this opportunity today.

It's been a pleasure and we need to help. Let's keep in contact because I'd be happy happy to publicize some of the activities and things too through all of our my non profits platforms as well too.

That'd be wonderful especially for international donors to realize the work that we're doing that it actually is going to the projects and I manage it 100%.

That's great. Good. Awesome.

Thank you Chris. And thank you for keeping it in the timeline. I appreciate it.

You bet, you bet that. Thank you, Michelle. As a reminder, listeners can read a summary of this episode and access links to the show notes via my LinkedIn Top Voice Companion article, along with past guests as well. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I have and I hope it will help you in your journey to living your life in full. Until next time, Living a Life in Full is a production of Stout Media, a subsidiary of Gordian Knot, LLC. Assistant producer Gracie Wong Music Dan O' Brien executive producer and host Dr. Chris Stout. To learn more, stop by our website at lifeinfull for show Notes and please recommend us to your friends and subscribe on your favorite platform. And as for the Oblivion Obligatory, this podcast is for general information uses only and does not constitute the practice of psychology, medicine, nutrition or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical or psychological advice. No doctor patient relationship is formed. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I take conflicts of interest seriously. For all of my disclosures as well as show notes, please see Living a Life in full and my LinkedIn profile. Thanks. And until next time, Ryan Reynolds here

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