The Unforgettable Lorraine K. Lee on How to Become the CEO of Your Own Career

Living a life in full is a conversation you always wanted to have with that person who gave an amazing TED Talk or the author of one of your favorite books, or that inspirational Olympian you always wanted to know more about. It's graduate level conversations with those making a difference in the world and in the lives of others. This show brings you new ideas and approaches so that you can live a life in full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout and I hope you enjoy this episode. This episode is brought to you by the nonprofit I founded, the center for Global Initiatives. The center is an all volunteer organization so there are no salaries and thus all tax deductible donations can go to the work. While our key country partner is in Tanzania, our work is global and generally focused in the areas of education and healthcare. We also help others to get their nonprofits started or augment others project based initiatives. It's our goal to open source humanitarian intervention and to help make it easier for others to do more good in the world. We are proud to have been ranked a great nonprofit every year since 2011 and to have achieved a Platinum level rating by Guidestar Links. In this episode's show, notes will take you to published articles on our outcomes, a number of helpful tools, and downloadable resources which are all free always. Please Visit us at CenterForGlobalInitiatives.org and be sure to watch our video at Patreon.com DrChrisStout to learn more. Thanks. Welcome to another episode of Living a Life in Full. I'm your host Dr. Dr. Chris Stout. Are you an ambitious hard worker and a high achiever who always delivers, but you feel stuck or unseen and you struggle to move up in your career? Or maybe it's your peers who seem to get all the recognition and they advance while you're wondering why you're being left behind. Working harder and being great at your job in and of itself may not always get you the promotion or the recognition you want. In today's competitive workplace, ambitious professionals need to master both how and where they show up if they want to stand out and be recognized. In today's competitive workplace, you need to be unforgettable. And that's where Lorraine K. Lee can lend a hand. Lorraine is an award winning global keynote speaker and an instructor for Stanford University's continuing studies program and LinkedIn learning and she's the author of the best selling new book Unforgettable. Get seen, gain influence and catapult your career. It's also one of the Next Big Idea Club's must reads. Through her role as a founding editor at LinkedIn and work with Fortune 500 companies, she's helped millions of professionals developed an intentional, powerful presence that makes them go from invisible to unforgettable. Lorraine received her BSJ from Northwestern's Medill School of Journalism and is a LinkedIn Top Voice with more than 300,000 followers. She has over a decade of experience leading editorial teams at the world's top tech firms. She's been invited as a guest speaker to some of the world's most recognizable brands, including Zoom, Cisco, Amazon, asics, Hilton, and McKinsey, covering a wide range of topics that include creating engaging virtual presentations, growing your presence on LinkedIn, effectively communicating in a virtual world, leading collaborative, remote, and distributed teams that thrive, and designing virtual, impactful and managing hybrid meetings. Before starting her own company, Lorraine was the founding editor at Prezi, SlideShare and LinkedIn. In those roles, she collaborated with global business leaders and helped launch core products including LinkedIn's Daily Rundown and LinkedIn newsletters, which I'm most appreciative of. Lorraine has been featured in numerous publications including Forbes Inc. Bloomberg, Read, Write, and Entrepreneur. Lorraine, it's great to have you on the show.

Thank you for having me, Chris. I'm very excited.

Me too. I've been looking forward to this ever since, learning more about you and your book. I did a little bit of a bio sketch and your bonafides in the introduction, but could you maybe share some of your career origin story of getting to Northwestern and then what came after that?

Sure. So as you mentioned, I studied journalism at university. It was always something I was very passionate about in middle school and high school and pretty soon on though, once I entered Northwestern, I knew that I didn't want to do traditional journalism, but I knew I wanted to use my journalism skills. And thankfully journalism skills can be used in a lot of different fields. And so I had a few different internships in PR and corporate communications and by the time it was, you know, the time to enter the workforce, I'd reached out to a former manager of mine and asked her did she know about what jobs existed and she mentioned she was working at this startup in Silicon Valley and that was 2012. So start seeing a lot more articles. Yeah, about how lucrative Silicon Valley was and how much opportunity there was there. Now I'm originally from LA and had wanted to move back there, but I figured, okay, you know, Bay Area is close enough, let me see if I like it and what this job is like. And that was at a startup founded by One of the first 10 employees at Google. And yeah, and I was like, this is a cool place and this is a cool job and great pay and great benefits. So I'm going to stay here for a little bit. And now I've been here since 2012.

Wow, that's great. Yeah, I agree. I think degrees in journalism really kind of are a Swiss army knife of academia. You can go into so many different kinds of areas and obviously the things that you've done not only by virtue of being an author and a best selling author at that is, you know, being able to do the kind of work that you did at all these tech startup companies as well. I mean, really kind of content is king. May I ask, or is it something private? Which company was that that you went out to? The.

Sure. Yeah, it was. So the first job I had, it was at a company called imo. Imo, it's a messaging app.

Yeah, okay. Gotcha, gotcha. And do you have the proverbial like, you know, employee number 62 badge or something like that? I remember there's a lot of founders that sort of have a wall full of those or early employees, I should say.

Yeah, I don't have a badge like that. I don't know what number I was, but I think it's still a smaller startup. But I was this, I guess I could say I was the number two marketing person at the company.

All right, good, good. That's, that's, that's very cool. So, you know, I think a lot of things today in terms of what's, what's on LinkedIn, what's in inc, what's in, you know, even Forbes. I mean it seems to be sort of a LinkedIn Entrepreneur Inc. Fast company, you know, genre, so to speak, of looking at careers and looking at, you know, how do I get my first career, how do I advance in my career, how do I get that promotion, how do I take agency for myself and you know, and maybe gumption as well to be able to ask for that promotion. So I think a lot of what we'll probably talk about in this conversation will be in that domain and really kind of predicated on your book, which again, unforgettable presence, great title, get seen, gain influence and catapult your career. But if you don't mind, before, before we do a deep dive into it, I want to first share what some other notable authors have had to say about it. Daniel Pink, number one New York Times best selling author, said, if you ever felt that your hard work wasn't enough to move you forward, this book will change your perspective. It shows that the answer isn't to become loud, flashy or inauthentic. Instead, the secret is to follow Lee's advice and craft a professional presence that reflects who you are while making sure the right people notice. Everett Taylor, CEO of Kickstarter, said, in business and in life, how you show up matters. Unforgettable Presence is your guide to making every interaction count. Lorraine offers a clear, actionable roadmap that's as enjoyable to read as it is impactful. Dorie Clark, Wall Street Journal bestselling author of the Long Game and faculty at Columbia Business School, said, Unforgettable Presence is a career game changer, packed with Lorraine's expert insight, insights on crafting a standout brand that gets you seen and recognized, and tip of the hat to Northwestern. Charles Whitaker, dean at the Medill School of Journalism there, said, with instability being the only certainty in the job market today, today's young professionals must develop a set of skills that will enable them to stand out in a fuzzy zoom landscape. Lorraine teaches us how to do just that. This guide should be required reading for all budding professionals. So, man, high praise, Lorraine, and well deserved.

Thank you. Yeah, very exciting.

Yeah. And how nice, you know, to get your department chair too. That's really kind of cool and kind of closing the loop and the pride that he must have, you know, about the role that they played and where you are today is also really pretty cool and heartwarming. So. And just personally, I mean, I really enjoyed your book as well. So I have to start this little cliche, but I have to start with the obvious. What was your goal with the book? What spurred you to write it?

So it's funny, Chris, writing a book was never something on a vision board of mine. It was never really something that ever crossed my mind until a former colleague of mine, Arun, who's also in the acknowledgment section, he, he brought it up and I had come out with my first LinkedIn learning course and he, he asked me, when's the book coming out? You know, sort of in a joking way. But I was like, oh, that's an interesting idea. Maybe it's something I should think about. So I kind of stored that nugget away. And it wasn't until after I got laid off from Prezi and I started my own company where I thought, okay, this is something that I want to do. I don't know the exact timing of it yet because I decided I wanted to work with a publisher that's sort of how the idea came to be. And then there's just a lot of benefits when you write a book. I think, you know, being early in my business, it was certainly something that I heard from a lot of authors that helps grow a business. And then I think the idea of distilling your knowledge in this, this one physical item is such a wonderful idea to help people, to organize your thoughts and give people this one tangible thing that really summarizes a lot of your expertise and stories and insights. It's also the nerve wracking part of it, right, where it's like all one thing, but all those parts I think contributed and got me really excited to do this.

That's great. What was your timeline for it? How long did it take to go from that concept of actually taking action to it coming out?

It was a tight turnaround. So I believe I signed the contract with Wiley March of last year and then the book came out this year in April. So 13 months.

That is, it takes me 13 months. I'm actually going through two second editions of two books of mine with Wiley. Yeah. And it takes 13 months for us to get through the proofs. So that's really, that's lickety split for those that may not have kind of gone through these kinds of experiences. That's awesome. I'm going to circle. I want to focus on content and if you don't mind, let's put a pin. I want to circle back because people have listened to my show, know that I really love to nerd out around the whole book publishing aspect, you know, and how, how do you do it and did you have an agent and did, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I don't want, I don't want to derail us from the whole career kind of thing first. So one of the things in this, I'm just going to be embarrassed about how old I am these days, but having the idea of an unforgettable presence kind of reminds me way back when I used to do a lot of stuff with Fast Company. And this is, golly molly, probably late 90s, 97ish, maybe there's a cover piece that Tom Peters, who was kind of like a big deal back then and it was like a cover thing, you know, I can, it almost looked like a Tide box or something, if memory serves. And his concept was something called a brand called you. And being the CEO of what then he called me incorporated. And it just, it sort of was reflective of that in your book. And you have, you offer a much more contemporary perspective. Does Tom Peters ring any bells? Are you familiar with his work? Did he influence your thinking?

I've heard those titles before. Yeah.

Yeah, I think you're really kind of spot on because I in the process of doing your book, you know, I'm kind of into it and you know, still reading my news feeds and things and other things are real similar and it's sort of like, you know, I'll read something and be like, did Lorraine write that? You know, so I think you're really, your timing of, you know, going through that just audacious schedule with Wiley is really, you know, perfect. So if you don't mind. You've described yourself so this isn't me, but you've described yourself as being shy and kind of an overlooked introvert. And now you're a sought after keynote speaker. And was that a result of being intentional about your professional presence or, you know, tell us about how that evolves to you, yourself as well as others that you coach, like becoming the CEO of your own career, was that intentional? Was it strategic? Was it organic and just sort of happened or break it down for us?

Sure, it was quite strategic and very intentional. And intentionality is a theme that's sort of woven throughout the book. So I start off telling a story in the book about my time at LinkedIn as a founding editor. Wonderful place to work. As you mentioned, Chris worked on some really cool projects, high visibility projects, but never got promoted from mid level to senior leader. And that was very frustrating and tough for me because I wanted to advance and I want to keep growing my career and I want to be wanted to be seen as a leader. And it wasn't for, you know, not working harder or anything like that. And I only realized after I left LinkedIn and did a lot of reflection and talking to other mentors and peers. Oh, the thing I was missing was presence. And then that idea got even a little bit more magnified when I joined Prezi on the presentation platform. And pretty soon after Covid happened and then we went virtual. And then I realized, okay, yeah, presence, you know, video presence and virtual presence is also a thing. And then that sort of kind of really solidified this idea of presence, not just about how you're being seen. So for example, at LinkedIn I was being seen as this really hard worker, but perhaps not as strategic. And that's what you need to advance. And with the virtual space now, it was not just about how you're being seen, but where you're being seen. Right. And then I also started posting on LinkedIn more as I started speaking. And then people would come to me and say, oh, you have such a strong LinkedIn presence. And I thought, that's interesting. They've never met me before and they're, you know, they have a positive impression of me or they, they think good things about me or they think I'm credible or, you know, this and that through LinkedIn without ever having spoken to me. And so it was sort of the, you know, I knew presence was important after I left LinkedIn, and then I sort of solidified even more all the different ways that presence show up in our modern workplaces. And. Yeah, and that's, that's sort of what I. I realize that I like to talk about a lot of different things that have to do with both these definitions of presence. And so it was a very natural fit that, okay, this is going to be what I speak on and I'm going to continue to be intentional about it. And then through all that and through the public speaking and putting myself out there and gaining that confidence, yeah, I became a keynote speaker. I'm still introverted, by the way, but, yeah, that's how I ended up to where I am right now.

That's great. I think I totally get it. I think. Let me bounce this theory off you being an introvert, which I also identify as, which people that know me really well recognize that, and people who kind of just know of me don't believe it, but I think the writing aspect of it really helps, and the getting published aspect of it, you know, in LinkedIn or a book or, you know, whatever, you know, whatever venue it might be. And it almost, you know, it gets. Maybe also, I don't want to diverge into imposter syndrome or stuff, but it almost seems like when you make that transition from the written word of whatever it is, let's use LinkedIn is the example where you can kind of freely publish your thoughts. And sometimes that's scary, too, because you feel like, you know, is someone going to lambast me? Am I going to, you know, feel like, you know, the emperor has no clothes? I'm going to be found out as a fraud. You know, this is. This is. I think it's genius. Everybody else think it's dumb or whatever, but does that kind of having success with that and encouragement? Because I think people also on LinkedIn are not trolls. I mean, they tend to be. They're there for a reason, you know, and they generally tend to be very supportive and ask good questions or give atta boys and atta girls, that sort of thing. Did that then help with the presence that you then brought to your day job, so to speak, as well as then doing keynotes and presenting at some of these Fortune 100 companies?

I think it was a combination of all those things. So I would post on LinkedIn while I work there, but not super, not like a super regular cadence, like often enough because I was an editor and was creating content and all that. But it wasn't until, and I took a hiatus actually when I moved to Prezi because I was like, let me just focus on my job. I'm going to figure out the LinkedIn stuff later. And I had tied my brand so closely to LinkedIn, I wasn't exactly sure what to post about when I moved to Prezi. And then it wasn't until I started public speaking and doing webinars and things like that where I was like, oh, I need to start posting on LinkedIn to let people know that I'm doing this thing. And then it was through that that I really gained more confidence, found my voice through posting more consistently on LinkedIn. Because I do think that consistency part is key to get over some of those fears and concerns that you mentioned, Chris, because it is, it can be very intimidating.

Right.

And then I think, yeah, it all sort of kind of came together and then you gain confidence through that. Then you speak more and you're gaining confidence through that. So it's just this like flywheel effect almost.

Yeah, yeah, I like the fly wheel. That's a great way to term it. So, you know, as I, we've kind of talked and we'll start to dig into the book a little bit more. The structure of the book I really liked because it's, you know, it's research based principles and things that you bring into it and you know, good, good index and good references because I nerd out on that sort of thing too. You bring it to life by virtue of your own personal anecdotes with, you know, very, you know, bless your heart with, you know, good transparency and things which would make me very nervous to do with myself. So I, I applaud that. And then insights and interviews from a variety of notables and industry leaders. I mean, you've got, you know, Daniel Pink, you got Radical Candor's Kim Scott. So how did you, how do you connect? How does someone, is it like leveraging your, your bona fides already to knock on the doors of Daniel and Kim? You know, how do you get the, how did you do the ask for their input on your book or you know, unpack that for us.

I'm so glad you asked this because interviewing them. So I interviewed about three dozen leaders and it was, I think one of the most fun parts of this whole book writing process because I got to meet all these people. Yeah, I really looked up to. And you know, apart from best selling authors, I spoke to C suite leaders at Fortune 500 companies, I interviewed content creators, a standup comedian, a poet. So all these different types of people whose job really relies on presence and who have something to say about it. So to answer your question though, it was a, it was a mix of things. It was some sometimes called outreach on LinkedIn, sometimes it was finding the contact information on their website and sometimes it was yeah, through nature of connection. So for Danielle Pink specifically, I remember I hired someone while I was at Prezi who went to Northwestern with me and she and Daniel Pink went to Northwestern as well. And I remember her telling me after I hired her, she mentioned, I don't know how it came up, but she mentioned that she was good friends with Dan's sister. And I didn't know what I was going to do with that information at that time since that was, you know, while I was still at Prezi and the book was not on the radar yet. But then when it came time to write this book, I reached out and she was so sweet. She's like, yeah, I'll send a note and see, see what happens. And Dan is so, so kind and just really generous. And so I was really excited when he responded and was open to being interviewed for the book and then also endorsing it meant a lot.

That's great. Good for you. Was that like, was that scary to do?

Yeah, yeah, it was scary. I think, you know, I get, yeah, I think it's natural to get sort of intimidated by these bigger than life, you know, personalities or business leaders that we see often in our feeds, in the news, etc. But it was also very exciting and I knew like you have to do the scary things, right, to get the, the great outcomes. And, and I certainly got rejected or ghosted by a lot of folks as well. But you know, it's sort of like a numbers game. You have to be still be willing to ask because you don't know who's going to say yes.

Right, exactly. Well, and I'm glad you shared that too because again, you know, usually the stuff that gets talked about and publicized is just the, you know, all the home runs, you know, the outs at Bat and base hits no one ever, you know, talks about. So that's good. And just also kind of as a quasi shout out. Ginny Wood, who is in your book, I'm interviewing her, I think next month. So I think.

Amazing.

Yeah, I think. Good, good. Well, I'll give a shout out to you and our episode too. But yeah, it's very fascinating for me to almost kind of see this ecosystem of people that, you know, it's a Kevin Bacon kind of thing, you know, except it's probably not even 6 degrees and I think nowadays it's more so 3 degrees, so. And again, I think you all have kind of a variation on a theme, but your thumb's on the pulse of what's very important to people right now with, you know, with career and work and the chaos and things that are going on, you know, otherwise with it. So. Okay, well, you've teed us up a little bit for LinkedIn with your background and with how that's been helpful to you. But, you know, we talked off mic before. You're both LinkedIn top voices, so if you don't mind, let's talk about LinkedIn, then we can get that out of the way and then go into some other things, if you're good for that. So. So, all right, so I want to pick your brain, all things LinkedIn. Why is it important for folks to have a presence on LinkedIn, even if they're not in the mood or not in the space right now of current space of job hunting?

LinkedIn has really become what I call our virtual water cooler, our virtual landing page, and really our ultimate virtual office. And as you said, Chris, like, LinkedIn is not just a place to look for jobs anymore. It's a place that's focused on content, community, conversations. And you want to be seen. I mean, you want to be seen at the office, Right. You want people to know about you, stay top of mind to have a positive impression of you. You have to be on LinkedIn. There's a stat I share in the book from the Rain group that says 82% of buyers will look up a seller on LinkedIn. It on LinkedIn before replying to prospecting efforts. Now, we're not all salespeople, but I think we can all relate to that experience where we'll get a message from someone. And how are we going to assess who this person is and whether they're credible? We're going to click through on their profile and check them out.

Sure.

And yeah, when we're at networking events, what are we doing first when we want to connect with them, we're not going to their website and finding an email address. We are adding them on LinkedIn. And so it's just, it's such a powerful place to connect with others, to make others know what you're an expert in and to make friends and to build a supportive community. I met Jenny Wood through LinkedIn and, you know, we were strangers. We only had talked virtually, and then since then, we've been able to meet in person. We have been supporting each other so much through this, this craziness of the book journey and book launch. So much can come from it. I just can't speak highly enough about it.

Yeah, good. Yeah. I'm obviously too big fan of it, so you and I both are in a fortunate position. We've got hundreds of thousands of followers. I have no idea how that's happened for me. And you seem to maybe. You certainly know, at least I know the algorithms change and it's probably top secret. It's like McDonald's secret sauce or something like that. But you've got much more LinkedIn knowing how and know, you know, much greater experiences and stuff. But for, for people that, you know, maybe are, myself included, I'd love to have more. Who wouldn't? But could you share what you think, what works vis a vis, you know, growing an audience, be it as a top voice, be it as, you know, connections and just general followers, what doesn't work, you know, newsletters, gaining subscribers for newsletters. What are some of the things that people, listeners, might do if those are areas that they want to increase their visibility and their presence?

I think the first thing that you want to do is come up with a posting cadence that works for you. And we sort of alluded to this before, Chris, but to stay consistent. And I think, and I'd be curious to hear from you, but like, I think that's probably one of the hardest things to do on LinkedIn, especially when you don't get on LinkedIn, maybe as much of that dopamine hit right away that you're used to getting on social media. So to stay consistent with it and to have a regular hosting cadence, that's, that's important and hard to do. And So I know LinkedIn recommends, I think, four posts four times a week. And to me that's way too much when you're starting off.

I know, I know. Because you, you don't want to post, you know, baloney either. You know, it's sort of like you don't want.

Yeah, Exactly. You want it to be quality content. You don't want to burn out if you're new to this. Oh, gosh, four times a week, somebody just, I know, like making me. Yeah. Sweat. So, so what I say is to start with a really low bar. So in the book, I say just start off like posting once a month. That's your goal. And you're gonna realize, oh, I can do once a month. And then you're gonna, you know, bump it up to twice a month and then you'll just keep building on that. But consistency is really key because people will follow you when they start seeing content from you regularly. Right. They see one post and then never hear from you again. There's not going to be any reason for them to follow you.

Right.

The second thing I would say is, again, you and I, Chris said that posting can be very intimidating and nerve wracking. And so commenting is actually, I think, a very underrated way to get comfortable with your voice, start sharing your expertise and gain followers. So the thing with comments though is we don't want to just leave comments that say I agree or very interesting. Aim for at least let's say 15 words. That means you're adding something of value. Right? So I agree. And here are three things I would add or I agree. And have you thought about this? So really you want to be creating conversation and you want people to see your comments and to learn something about you through that comment.

That's good.

And then of course, as you said, Chris, like, there's a lot of other ways that you can be creating content. So we have videos, we have LinkedIn newsletters. So if someone likes more long form writing, that could be a really great way to gain followers, subscribers, all of that LinkedIn live shows. So a lot of, lot of different avenues, but I think those two firsts I think are really critical to keep in mind.

Gotcha. Good, that's, that's very helpful. You also have a very nice little tip sheet. I'm actually just gonna grab your book and see if I can. If I dog eared that page. Yeah, there it is. So like, on creating your brand, how to share your accomplishments without bragging. Because that's one of the other things that I think is kind of. And I've learned from that too, thank you, by the way. But you know, it's like the proverbial cliche of, you know, the humble brag, you know, oh, blah, blah, blah, blah, bl. But you know, and people can grab the book. You can give a couple here for Free. But I'd recommend people to grab the book and go into it because you give some really excellent alternative ways to do that that really come across as very authentic. I mean, again, your journalism degree and your creativity are certainly paying off because what you wrote in your book is awesome. But talk about the humble brag, what that is if people don't recognize that term and ways to avoid it.

Humble brag. So LinkedIn gets a bad rap sometimes about how everyone's sort of bragging about themselves. But basically humble bragging is like you're bragging but trying to not make it seem like a brag, but everyone can kind of see through it, I think.

Right.

And that's what people sometimes say. You know, LinkedIn can be cringy because everyone's just bragging about themselves non stop. Right, Right. So, yes, there's a few ways that you can adjust your phrasing and also, also at the same time help others learn more about you and help people connect with you. So we see a lot of posts. I'm excited to announce, I'm excited to share and how we can change that. So let's say I'm excited to announce I have a new job at this company. Well, instead of just talking about the fact that you're excited, share a little bit more. Like, what was the journey to get that job? How did you get in this industry? What are you most excited to be doing in this new role? Right. Like, are you managing for the first time? Like, that's a very cool thing, I think, to call out and people learn a little bit more about you or I'm excited to speak at this event. Okay, well, what is the topic? Like, why are you passionate about this topic? You know, I've been studying this topic for, for 10 years and now I'm really excited to, to take the stage and, and share my insights on X, Y and Z with this, you know, amazing audience. And so again, like, it's, it's a little bit more storytelling that you're inserting and a little bit more of a personal touch and personal, just more information about you that allows someone to, yes, be excited for you, but also connect and learn a little bit about you at the same time.

That's great. And that's a good kind of heuristic to think about it in terms of like tell a story, you know, versus, you know, give a sound bite or, you know, I'm very humbled to have received the Nobel Prize this year, you know, or whatever. So, so that's good. So this is probably more of a nuts and bolts and very selfish question, but anybody that puts together a newsletter puts a lot of work into their newsletter. And some people, again, gosh, I'm just the power folks that are able to create content that is quality and do it rapidly. I bow my head to them because that is just really impressive. And I will never be able to do that. But I have the newsletter Tools for Change that comes out on a monthly basis because that's about as quickly as I can produce one. But is there a way to send it to followers? Like, is there a way? Like, can you. I mean, that, like, I don't know who all my followers are. I mean, I could kind of go look, but is there like a carpet bombing way or is that kind of against the ethic of LinkedIn to like, reach out specifically to people that are, you know, I would kind of think maybe my followers would want to know I have a newsletter not all my followers may follow, may subscribe to it, or. Or may not even know about it. But are there ways to be more of a, you know, get the word out there? Yeah, versus, you know, just organic and fingers crossed.

So. So as far as I know, the only way you can send a notification to everyone is when you first create the newsletter. So that's like the special moment where when you publish the newsletter, the first edition, it gets sent out, a notification gets sent out to your connections and your followers. So that's when you're going to see the biggest jump.

Okay.

Unfortunately. And Chris, your point, like, there should be a way where you can alert people, but whenever someone new follows you or connects with you, they will get a, like a connection request to follow your newsletter. So I guess there's that. But there's no, like, mass message way, as far as I know, to send everyone and just say, like, hey, in case you didn't know this exists.

That's good. Well, that's good to know. And I think that maybe will be encouraging for listeners that have been kind of LinkedIn newsletter curious like to say, well, I, you know, I think I could do this. And again, just also to tell everybody, if you do choose to make a newsletter, it's your choice as to how often you publish it, how, you know, in often, you know, whatever. You don't have to, you know, feel like you're going to be the New York Times and you have to do it, you know, every day or every month or every, every week or whatever. That's nice to have that choice. I have just this total kind of Random way of when I drop it. We talked off mic before. The podcast will always drop on the first day of the month, no matter what the day, the weekday that calendar date drops. My experiment with LinkedIn, with the newsletter is to drop it on the first Wednesday of every month. And that's just been. Just so I don't have everything all crashing together, you know, on the same dates and days. Sometimes they do, of course, but you know, just with the thought of people are probably kind of busy Monday and Tuesday at least that's been my work life experience. And then Thursday, Friday are like catch up days or, you know, downshift days or take Friday afternoon off kind of thing. So I just thought, well, what's in between? So I just arbitrarily chose Wednesdays of when my first Wednesdays of every month just so again, it's not, you know, hectic for me. But any thoughts, tips is people should experiment. I could change that. I could make it, you know, the third Tuesday. I mean, I can, you know, just. So again, everybody knows they can make it whatever they want. But I don't know if that's something on your radar, something you have an opinion on or advice you could give to listeners too.

My newsletter also comes out, well, mine's weekly, but also comes out Wednesday. And I think I had sort of a similar logic as you, Chris. I, I do think though, and this is sort of related to, you know, when people ask me what's the best day to post on LinkedIn, right. Generally you can say, okay, most people are going to be, you know, online Monday through Friday, and maybe Monday they're really busy catching up and Friday they're sort of a little bit more checked out ahead of the weekend. So you can make a generalization. Maybe Tuesday through Thursday are the best week, but I think it really depends on your audience. And it's important to experiment because we can't just say for sure, you know, for, for that specific person, Wednesday will be the best or Tuesday will be the best. I learned through experimentation that posting on Saturday on LinkedIn, I actually get a pretty good amount of engagement. And I think that's because there's less competition because fewer people are. People are still opening LinkedIn, but they're not maybe posting on weekends as much. So you have to just kind of experiment and play around. You know, if your audience is more in the APAC time zone, you'll probably want to post more in the evening, right. And then maybe, maybe Sunday makes sense for you because they're waking up on their Monday? I don't know exactly. But yeah, you need to sort of experiment. And one thing I like to say is to, you can launch or post a poll on LinkedIn. And so that's like a very low lift way to ask your audience, hey, when would you like to receive content from me? And it's very easy for people to vote in a poll. So it's also like, like an additional way to post and maybe feel a little bit less nervous about it because you'll definitely get some votes once you do that.

Oh, I like that. Yeah, those are all great tips. Yeah. And you really raise a good point. I mean, you know, it's, it's, our audiences are global. I mean, that's, that's the, you know, that's the good and bad of it or whatever that, you know, then you think, okay, well, and there, I suppose people too, depending upon what their content is, what their specialty is, what they're trying to get out to the world, might also be specific to certain, not just industries, but also to certain geographic areas or whatever. So to keep those kinds of things in mind when they do post. Because one of the other nice things that LinkedIn does is, you know, you can put, set it to a calendar, you know, so if you, you know, like if someone says, oh my gosh, I gotta get up at three in the morning and send this out, it's like, no, you don't, you can figure out what time zone.

Definitely don't do that.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Whatever time zone. And that's, you know, that's a nice tip of the hat to LinkedIn. That's a super helpful feature. So. Okay, good. Well, thank you for that LinkedIn rabbit hole. So I'm going to pull us back out of it and get back to the book. So a lot of the stuff, I want to break down some of the things, other areas that you cover in terms of like how to, and you structure your book in the sense that at least the way I took it is sort of like four areas in particular. You've got personal branding, presence, of course, presenting and leadership. So in no particular order, I thought we might kind of of focus on each one of those categories and then we can kind of, you know, open things up. If that sounds like a good way to unpack all this.

Yeah, sounds good.

Great. Okay, so let's start with personal branding. So we talked about, you know, me incorporated and the former fast company stuff and all that. Why is it important for people to develop a career brand from your perspective and what you write About a career

brand is my way of talking about a personal brand. Because we all have a personal brand, right? Our personal brand is essentially our reputation. However, when people hear the phrase personal brand, they sometimes think, ooh, that, you know, that sounds kind of maybe inauthentic, maybe like, I'm just promoting myself all the time. A brand. Isn't that just a thing for companies? So career brand, I think, describes what your brand is in service of and makes it perhaps a little bit more palatable. So career brand is your brand in service of your career. And like I said, our brand is essentially our reputation. And so we all already have a

brand, and it's whether you like it or not.

Yeah, whether you like it or not, you have one. And it's about, do we want to be intentional? Again, that theme of intentionality. Do we want to take control of it? Do we want to be intentional in how others see our brand? Or are we going to just leave it to chance and let others. Others define it for us? And so a brand is a very powerful thing. It's going to be what helps you reach your goals, reach that next level, be tapped for opportunities. And we have to constantly be thinking about it, making sure people know about it. And yeah, it's just, it's one of the most important things that I was missing early on in my career. But once I got more clear on. On this concept and, and realized its importance, I was like, I can't unsee this.

I.

You know, you have to, you have to do it, right.

Well, in, in your book, you talk about four crucial elements, and you, you've got a cool mnemonic, Epic. Tell us what epic is and how that fits into a person. Sure.

So your epic career brand framework. So EPIC stands for experiences, personality, identity, and community. And as you said, Chris, these are the four criteria to be thinking through as you think through your brand. Because I know you think brand. It's like, oh, where do I even start? So hopefully these will help. So, first one, experiences. We all have personal and professional experiences that make us who we are today and have gotten us to the point where we're at today. So think through that personality. So as I mentioned before, and you as well, Chris, we're both introverted. You might be a more serious person, the louder person of the group. You have different personality traits that you bring to the office. So we want people to know what you bring. Identity. These are the values that you live by that you want people to know about when they work with you. It could also be parts of your cultural background. So, for example, for me, I'm an Asian American woman, and the values that are really important to me are I want people to know that if I say I'm going to do something, I'm going to follow through on it and I'm going to do what I say when I say I'm going to do it by. So that's just one example of one of my values. And then the last one, community, is where people forget this one. And it's probably one of the more important ones. So you come up with your career brand, you have a sense of, okay, your story and who you are. But if your community and your network is not seeing you in that way that you see yourself, that's a problem. There's a disconnect. So you need to make sure that all those things are aligned, and that way that will be a solid career brand. How you see yourself, how you want to be seen, is also the way that your community or your network sees you.

I like that. It also gives kind of a filter or a litmus test. Not only you give it as like a foundational structure, but then it's also like a person could just, you know, periodically do a pulse check on themselves of that.

Understood.

Yeah, yeah. Am I hitting on all these? Do I have a weak area? What, you know, what can I do to remedy wherever it is weak? Also kind of part and parcel of this is what you call your upi, your unique power introduction. It kind of reminded me of like the proverbial elevator pitch, but share with the audience what a unique power introduction is all about and then how they might craft one for themselves.

Yeah, your upi, a unique and powerful introduction. This is a way to be, again, intentional, more intentional about the way you introduce yourselves. And I came up with this acronym because, like you said, like, there's the elevator pitch, which I think most people associate with networking events or in an elevator. Right. You're into an executive, but your UPI is meant to be used and also adjusted depending on every single setting where you have to introduce yourself. And most notably in our everyday meetings. What I noticed in meetings is that so many people kind of throw away the introduction. You know, they'll just say really quick, oh, you know, I'm Lorraine and I worked. I'm a. Whatever my title is, I'm an editor, and I've worked here for three years. And there's just so much more that you can and should be saying to. And it's not to be like, you know, a 10 minute introduction, but just few more sentences where. What does that mean to be an editor? What are you doing? Who are you working with? Just a little bit something that adds to your credibility and you're going to appear more confident and more authoritative as well when you share this information. So, so not saying I'm on Lorraine's team, but I'm an editor and I run the blog and also our social media accounts and we reach, let's say, like millions of users and I've been here for three years and I also sit on Lorraine's team. So just a little bit more information that gives me the context whether I'm a new teammate, a client, whoever it is, so that I understand who you are. And so, so meetings, again, like meeting new clients, meeting new teammates is just a really great moment to stand out and I want people to use their UPIs to be able to do that. So again, a little bit of thought, a little bit of intentionality, you can use some of the elements from your epic career brand framework, but it doesn't take too much. But you just have to think about it.

Yeah, I really like that because, I mean, if you can kind of have it in your back pocket, so to speak, so that you're not put on the spot. And again, for us introverts, you know, it's like that sort of a thing impromptu, like, you know, I like hot dogs. You know, you just, you. And then you're like, oh, gosh. So the, the, the other thing you just said that I really like about it is that, you know, it depends upon where you are, who your audience is and you know, what the introductions are all about, you know, because it's nice. It's not, I mean, it probably is nice to have one kind of quasi universal one, you know, that you can use whenever, wherever, but also to tailor it so that, you know, if you're speaking to a, you know, a bunch of tech people, then maybe you lean in more of the tech experience you have or what it is that you're doing. If you're leaning more into marketing and promotion, then maybe you kind of emphasize the, you know, where, you know, your per, your career has, you know, taken you in those kinds of areas. So that's, I think that's, that's really a good tip. So maybe that's, you know, those are meetings and those are, you know, kind of just, you know, general networking and things like that. One of the other things vis a vis promotion and, and raises and things like that. You talk about five ways to make a strong impression with executives, what are some of those kinds of things that people might be able to incorporate in their career and deal when they're dealing with who they report to?

Your UPI is certainly one. I would say one of the best ways to stand out to an executive is in your presentations to them or when you're speaking to them. And a lot of people don't realize that when it comes time to speak to an executive, one, it's a very exciting opportunity. So I know it's probably nerve wracking, but also remember, it's also very exciting that you're being put in this position and to remember that what is important and exciting to you is not necessarily important and exciting to the executive.

Good point, right?

Yeah. And you really have to understand who they are and what's important to them and how they like to consume information before you get in the room or the virtual room with them. So even doing that, I think you really put yourself a step ahead of many of your peers. And to remember, short and sweet is always better. Right. An executive is busy, busy, always on the go. And so to be able to get to the point quickly and then leave the majority of the time open for Q and A so that they can get their questions answered is going to be ideal. And then, of course, prepare and plan for what the possible Q and A could be. So those are a few ways, I think, in a presentation setting where you will stand out and people will be impressed by you.

That's good. I like that. And those are all so actionable. I think that, you know, in general, I think that, you know, covers a variety of different kinds of, you know, work settings and whatnot. That's. And I think that's. I should also just give a shout out to you for that, too. A lot of what your book is, it's not industry specific. I mean, it's, you know, if you're working with other people, if you're working in office or out of office, it, you know, all these things are very, you know, applicable to that wide spectrum, so to speak. So one last question on this. So putting all these different kinds of things together, you also have shared, and I'd like you to share for the audience, you know, in our conversation, ways to get ahead, like, you're new on the job, you've just gotten there, you're getting out of the gates. What are some of the things that people maybe can try to do as best as a good fit for their circumstance, their first three months on the job, so that they can get that visibility not look like narcissistic or whatever about things, but what are some ways to get ahead in the initial three months of getting in their job, their

new job, something I did when I was at Prezi and I think, you know, it's great practice for anyone at a new job is to come two things come up with a 30, 60, 90 day plan. And the second thing is to meet as many people as you can in the organization. Now the 30, 60, 90 day plan, for those who don't know, who are listening, is a plan where you figure out what do I want to accomplish in the first 30 days and then the next 60 days and then the first 60 days, then 90 days. And once you create this, this is the important step, bring it to your manager, make sure that they agree with you, that they get your buy in and that you're set up for success. And so I remember doing this with my manager and she had me take out a few things, add a few things just from what she knows about the company and how things were moving. And then that's a really nice checklist and guideline that you can follow to make sure that you're on the same page. Because it can be really overwhelming starting a new job. You're like, what am I even doing right now?

Exactly.

And it also shows you're being really proactive. So that's, that's one thing. And then the second thing is when you're new to a company, it's such a unique time to be able to basically go up to anyone you want, say hi, I'm you and I want to learn about what you do and talk to me basically. So that can be more junior people, that can certainly should be more senior people. Right? And so talk to as many people as you can and you're going to be able to start connecting the dots and then laying the groundwork for those relationships which will become so, so important the farther you advance in your career. And relationships are really the bedrock of business and the foundation of how we build trust. So getting those, building as many relationships as you can, meeting as many people as you can, and then learning as much as you can about what everyone does will be very helpful.

I really, really like that, Lorraine. I think the, the meta aspect of communicating to your manager, of you're being proactive and saying here are these kinds of things and then soliciting that feedback and now you know what the yardstick is in terms of expectations and hitting whatever your goals are during those first three months and then beyond and I would guess too. I mean, there's no harm in all those folks that you're meeting up, down and sideways in your company connecting with them on LinkedIn as well too, right? Right?

Oh, yeah, definitely.

Yeah. And then they get to see what you're writing and get to know you, your presence. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, okay, this is teed up nicely for the segue into the second thing of presence. So you talk about professional presence and you talk about executive presence. Are they different? Are they similar? How are they, how do they scrub up against each other?

Sure, they are different. Executive presence is one piece of, of the presence puzzle, or the presence pie, as I like to call it. And this was something that helped me a lot in terms of reframing. I think when we hear presence traditionally, we often think of executive presence and how I show up in the boardroom and how I show up in front of the executive team. And to me, I feel like executive presence can be a coded, can be like a heavy, you know, phrase. Like it can come with a lot of sort of just, just coded meanings or like expectations. And it can be really ambiguous. You're like, what? You know, everyone has their own definition of executive presence. And so what I wanted to do with this book is I wanted to make it really clear that presence, professional presence, is something that all of us can build, can strengthen, that we have. And it's not just about these big moments that we have in front of the executives in the boardroom, but it's really more about these small and medium sized moments that we have every day throughout our careers, at every level, and how they build up over time to create our overall presence. So executive presence is one piece of that. But there's also, like we said, LinkedIn presence, your virtual presence where you're showing up in chat channels. Right. Are you in the right chat channel? Your presence when you communicate on email. So it's just so many different factors that I don't. Yeah, I'm having us hopefully rethink the way that we think of presence holistically. And executive presence is one piece of that.

I like that. I like the pie and the holistic aspect of it. And I mean, kind of what you've talked about just now and in the book too, is these mindset shifts that can kind of put you in the driver's seat of what your professional journey is going to be and having intention around that. So we kind of dabbled upon this. Maybe we don't need to do super deep dive, but I'd like to get your opinions on the aspect of imposter syndrome and overcoming that in these kinds of contexts vis a vis presence. And then also maybe juxtaposing that with how introverts can work and lean into their introvert superpowers, which you, I think you coined that in the book, which I really dig. So maybe kind of talk about both those things in the context of this, this holistic issue with presence.

Sure. So the first thing you asked about was imposter syndrome. Imposter syndrome is something that everyone experiences and something that was very, I don't know, validating is the right word, but let's use validating. Validating throughout this process was when I interviewed a lot of the executives for the book, I did ask a lot of them or of them about imposter syndrome. And everyone has experienced it.

Right.

At some point. Even as people who, you're like, they're so, you know, they're just, they're so professional, they're credible, they're. Everyone knows who they are. Yeah. Imposter syndrome still comes up. And so I think a really helpful way to reframe it and it gets easier over time is that if you are feeling imposter syndrome, it's often because. Because you're doing something new and something challenging and something that's stretching you. And that's a really good thing because that's when we grow the most. Right. In those uncomfortable, challenging times. And the more you do things like that. And I think Jenny Wood said a phrase like confidence comes from trying hard things and not dying or something like that.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But that's essentially like what it is, right? Like the more you do it, it. I think imposter syndrome becomes less because now you have all this data of you kind of pushing through these challenging moments. And then again, that mindset shift, like, oh, I'm doing something hard, like that's a good thing. Right? Like, I'm not the smartest person in the room. I'm going to learn a lot from everyone here right now. And so it really, I think, stems from being in those uncomfortable new situations. So I think that mindset shift has helped me a lot. And then you look back at all the things you've done and remember, like, I just published a newsletter the other day I got invited to speak at the Zoom All Hands, which was very, very exciting and also very nerve wracking. And I got more nervous than I'd been in a long time, you know, speaking for a few years now. And I had to say to myself, okay, you're nervous. But also, you've done this so many times. You've done, you know, the podcasts and the TV interviews and all of that. Why should this be any different? You know, I was just putting all this pressure on myself. It was the all hands. And Zoom has meant a lot to me in my career, and I, you know, I wanted to do a good job, and so. So, you know, you gotta look at the data. And then. And then, you know, I went through it and turned out great. But, yeah, that's sort of my take on imposter syndrome.

Gotcha, gotcha. So is that then also then sort of this example of the introvert superpower. So being able to, you know, kind of do an accounting of yourself and saying, hey, you know, you've, you know, you've been there, you've done that. You know, this is an important group. That's fine. No wonder you're feeling little twinges of anxiety or maybe imposter. But, you know, you've, you know, you know, buckle up, buckle up. Lorraine, this is not your first rodeo.

So, yeah, I think it's related. So the introvert superpowers I talk about is really, you know, tied to the fact that it can feel like corporate America is built for the extroverts, and it can feel like, oh, things like public speaking are maybe not made for introverts, but introverts have so many superpowers, and I want them to realize that and not feel like they're at a disadvantage. Right. It's just about understanding how can we leverage those superpowers in the right settings and in a way that, you know, benefits us. So if you look at the example of public speaking, it's funny, like, I think you said this earlier, Chris, like, people look at us and they're like, oh, you're an introvert, but you're, like, putting yourself out there and you're. You're speaking and you're talking all the time. And introverts are very well suited for public speaking. I know it doesn't seem like it at face value, but we're wonderful at building connections, kind of being empathetic. Right. To the audience. Understanding the audience ahead of time is critical to making a great presentation. We are very thoughtful. We are very prepared. We love to prepare. Right. So all of these things are critical for a great presentation. And presentations give us a more controlled way to get our voice out there versus maybe like, speaking on the fly at a meeting. So, yeah, I really wanted to point out that there are all these avenues through which we can be very powerful through which we can be seen and recognized. It's about knowing what those are and leveraging those and not feeling like being an introvert is a disadvantage, but something that. That can really make us shine.

Wow. Well said. Well said, Lorraine. Yeah, thank you. And this is a good segue into then talking about the presenting, because I don't know about you, but I just did a thing at one of my alma maters and met with a number of graduate students and faculty and undergrads and just had a lovely, lovely time. And it was sort of like. And I said this very transparently to them. I said, you know, again, sort of like I half jokingly said at the start of our conversation, like, people wouldn't necessarily realize that. And these students didn't know me from Adam. You know, it was the first time that we'd all connected. And I said, and I will be, after spending a day with you all, I will love it. It's high energy, it's great fun. I've been looking forward to it. I got notes, and I will be wiped out for about two or three days after this. Is that the same for you? Is that. Do you just, like, build up this head of steam, do it, and then you're wiped, or have you found a way to, like, just, you know, get back on the horse and. And not miss a beat?

I still get tired. A day is a lot of work. I just came back from a few days in Chicago for various speaking engagements. And I mean, I had yesterday to recover a little bit because I came back Saturday, but I'm still like, yeah, very tired.

It really.

Yeah, I'm like, waiting for the weekend already. I'm like, I gotta rest next weekend.

Yeah, I got you. Okay, good. It's. I will form our own little support group. So. Yeah, yeah, so this again, good segue into, like, talking about presenting and whatnot. One of the things you also. And this is also like an overlap with presence on the presence for a second, I think, you know, back in the. Back in the bygone era, for me, it was sort of like I was always at work, you know, and it's not a complaint. I just. I mean, I enjoyed being there. I enjoyed what I was doing, doing. I enjoyed the people I did it with. It was. I went through the dot com era where it was like a badge of honor to be like, there are a million hours a week, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, now there's remote working, now there's virtual offices, now there's, you know, all these other kinds of things. I knew how to have a presence when I was physically present. You are also very skilled, obviously, like with your whole bona fides, with zoom in particular. But about, you know, the virtual things of, you know, remote work and hybrid work and these kinds of things. What are some of the things? Like you. You talk about resting to avoid resting, business face. And you've got a set of essentials vis a vis presenting to consider when you're on video. Calls can share what those are all about and what we can learn from doing that when we have these virtual kinds of contacts and meetings.

Today I created something called the Team Method Tea. It's meant to be a reminder. What's the first thing you do in the morning? I'm going to drink some tea or coffee, right? But tea in this case. And yeah, it's a tea. Method is the things you need to think through, the first things you need to do before and during, you know, your call. And I think, Chris, a lot of people still get intimidated with video or think it has to be this really complicated thing, and it doesn't. And so T method is meant to be a simple framework to follow. So T stands for. Well, the T stands for tech. The E stands for energy, and then the A stands for aesthetics. And so these are the three criteria to think about. So technology you need to start thinking about, like a webcam, an external microphone, various, you know, hardware, software to make sure that your setup is strong. You have crisp audio, crisp video, and then energy. You want to make sure, you mentioned rbf, resting business face. You want to make sure that you look like you want to be there and that you don't look miserable. I don't know what it is, but I guess just because we're at home virtually, right, like, we're just relaxed and we just have like kind of an angry face on or an even neutral face. So you want to look like you want to be there, right? And so being aware of your facial expressions and also just generally the energy that you're giving off on a call, that does make a difference. And you want to be, as I say, like a little bit extra because the video screen mutes energy. So we want to really give it a little extra something so that the person on the other side can feel our energy. And, you know, we do that through things like body language, for example, and then aesthetics. You want to make sure people can see you, so you want good lighting. You want to curate your environments, right? So that's both your background and perhaps Even the foreground of your video with certain visuals. There's a lot of different tech products out there that allow for that. But again, it's like there's that theme, intentionality. Again, being thoughtful about these few key factors that are needed to get on a. Really to get to show up professionally on a video call and then it makes a strong impression. Right. Again, people form an impression super quickly. Some say in as little as a few milliseconds, some say in as few as a few seconds. And that's not much time. So you want to make sure you're showing up the best way you can.

That's great. I know that. My own experience too. I do a fair amount of work with startups and private equity and whatnot. And some of the calls, it's sort of like we're all kind of getting, you know, there's the initial meeting, meetings and getting to know each other and stuff. And what you just said reminded me two things. One was on the, on the private equity side of things with some people that we're going to be working with. We were having this meeting, we never met in person at that point in time. And this fellow had like a couple of, of like little metal model cars behind him and I could recognize what, you know, makes and models they were. And then on a subsequent email, you know, I said, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah about what business was. And I said, hey, by the way, are you into cars? You know, and that just started this whole other relationship development and building that had kind of obviously nothing to do with work, but I think really helped us, you know, bond and communicate. Number two is like a lot of times when people are authors or have other kinds of things that are supportive of their, their presence and who they are will be sort of forward facing copies of their book, books, you know, on a bookshelf or whatever, kind of not, not like a movie poster, you know, but I mean those kinds of things just like how when someone would go into your old proverbial office and see your diploma or see your trophy or whatever. Yeah. So I think structuring those things and again that makes it, I don't know, you got to be careful. Like then you don't have the fade or you don't have the virtual office as your background or whatever. But I think those, you know, and I feel I have a, I don't love hate with some of those. I mean sometimes it's, you know, it's nice or whatever, but I think a lot of times it's, it's More. I feel more, I hate to say bonding, but something bonding light when I could get to see what people's environments like. It's like I got invited to their house. So I think, you know, what you say are very much all those kinds of components that get into those micro opinions or micro perspectives that people might have. Not just of you and your, you know, hopefully not ugly wrestling business face, but, you know, you're also your background and. And people probably project and make assumptions too, about, you know, it's, oh my God, it's a mess, you know, oh my God, you know, yeah, window shades are broken or, you know, or whatever. And then that is a reflection of you. So those are good.

Exactly, exactly. Oh, I love that story, though, that you shared about the, like noticing what's in the background. Like, that's exactly why, you know, we curate our background because we want to find those moments of connection and, and break free from that autopilot small talk to build those relationships because it's harder virtually and you only have so much space, but use that space.

Yeah, brilliant. Brilliant. Okay, Last component of the four leadership. So part of this, I guess maybe if these other kinds of aspects are firing, then it relates to boosting your credibility. As if. And again, I know not everyone wants to be a manager or a leader or a founder or whatever. Maybe they're just happy and want to keep doing what they're doing and do more of it and get recognized in financial remuneration for what good work they're doing. But can you talk about developing strategic relationships vis a vis boosting that credibility if someone is on a trajectory to want to have a greater leadership role in their job and the asterisks to that and how to do that also, maybe if they're working remotely,

I'll share one really simple tip that I just alluded to, actually, and that is turning off autopilot small talk in conversations. And so what that is is basically if you can predict what the other person is going to say, that's autopilot small talk. So let's say you and I, Chris, are in an office. I say, hi, Chris, how are you? You say, I'm good, how are you? And then I say, I'm good, thanks. And then that's the end of the conversation. That's us not really thinking at all. Right, we're going on autopilot. This happens in person. It happens virtually. I talk about this concept in the book called conversational threading, where you want to offer a few threads when someone asks a Question asks you a question. And then you also want to ask questions that will elicit some threads. For example, I see you in the office, Chris, and are on video. And instead of asking, how was your weekend? And then you say, good, how was yours? I will ask you, what was the highlight of your weekend? And now you actually have to pause and think. You have to reflect on what you did and then share some options. You know, what you did with me. Oh, I read this interesting book, or I went on a hike, or I did this and that and now I learn a little bit about your interests and I have some threads on I can pull on. Oh, tell me more about that book. Oh, you know, maybe if we're in the same city. Oh, you know, how's that hike I've been thinking about? Like, is it for beginners? Because I'm a beginner. So now we're creating some conversation and slowly building a relationship because small talk is a very critical way that we connect with others. The reason it gets such a bad rap is because we are always on autopilot. And of course that's a fun conversation to have. And so, so when you can start building those relationships, it helps with things like influence. And actually, relationships is one piece of my RAVE model, which stands for relationships, appearances, visibility and expertise. And those are the four criteria to build influence. And so I think, yeah, you know, super important if you want to kind of move up in an organization and build those essential relationships and get the buy in for the things you need buy in for.

That's great. And I also should give a shout out for all your great acronyms, by the way. Should have led with some of those. Yeah, that's good. You get some T shirts and we can do a whole swag thing. Well, and you know, I like that in the context too, because in the process of that example you just gave, it also shows to the person you're speaking with that you care about them. You know, it's sort of like the unspoken meta aspect of that was that, you know, gosh, Lorraine really, really wants to know. I didn't think she cared. I didn't think, blah, blah, no one else asks these kinds of questions like she does. So I think that's again, another good foundational building block of those kinds of relationships that again, no matter where you are in a organization that are beneficial. And it's just good humanity too. It really is caring about the other without necessarily having to have some ulterior motion or whatever, it's just being a good person and you Know, being eventually not just a good colleague, but maybe down the road a good friend as well too.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

All right, I'm going to shift gears a little bit because I being conscious of your time, I do want to ask you, vis a vis, we've talked a lot about thought leadership and, you know, publishing Newsletters and LinkedIn Top Voice articles and things like that. Do you happen to have any opinion? Because now it's not. I wouldn't say it's crowded, but now there's a lot of other, other platforms. There's obviously LinkedIn newsletters, there's LinkedIn Top Voice articles, there's Medium, there's substacks. People have their own email lists. Do you have any opinion experience? If someone's listening to this and they want to start something like now they know you gave a great bit of advice about starting a LinkedIn newsletter, about how it can get really start out of the gate big, because that's going to be one of the best opportunities to reach an audience. But you know, what do you think about all these? Should people repost on others? Should people focus on one or the other? Is there a rank order? They should do them all, but really lean into this one and go soft on that one. What do you think about that?

I like in terms of email or newsletters rather, I like to recommend anytime you can own your audience, that's always the best thing when people are getting your email straight to their, to their inbox. But I also think at the Same time, like LinkedIn newsletters gives you a different kind of reach. Right? Like you're, it's, it's kind of like all built into the ecosystem. So that's what it's good for. I actually post my newsletter. I'm on both my email newsletter and my LinkedIn newsletter because I think I'm reaching different audiences through both.

Sure, that's good.

Yeah. But yeah, I would say that those, those are the platforms I'm most familiar with. I know there are folks who are on Substack and some of those other sites, but I use Kit. But Yeah, kit and LinkedIn newsletters are sort of my go to for that. More, I guess. Not gated, but just like my newsletter content.

Yeah, that's good, that's good. And I'll tell you too, I mean, just for any podcast, curious people too. I mean, one of the things that you and I talked off Mike before, like why we're on so many platforms, forms and I have found Visa and this is different than newsletters and written words but in terms of audible or not audible, but audio.

Oh yeah.

That people get into a habit. Like, I really like Overcast. That's kind of my favorite listening to platform. I like it how it works on my phone. I like all this, you know, gizmos and things that I can do with it. But I know that some people are just super Spotify, some people are super, you know, iHeartRadio or super, you know, you pick on any of the other channels for those podcasts. So that's why we wanted to distribute across all those different kinds of platforms and RSS feeds, etc. Etc. Because, you know, once somebody's on one, it's sort of like, well, gosh, I listen to five other podcasts consistently and there's this new one that, you know, Chris is doing, but he's not on my platform. So I'm not gonna go, you know, load up another piece of software on my platform phone just to listen to one podcast and then you get forgotten about. So just as a tip for other people that's. And it's not a big lift to be on other platforms and things like that. But I think, you know, you make a good point vis a vis the written aspect of things too. So thank you. I appreciate that. We also talked a little bit about at the beginning about this space and like what Ginny Wood is doing and whatnot. And I just have to give a little bit of a shout out too. So someone else. That's been a good gist and you may know her. Do you know Octavia Goradima? She.

No, I don't.

Well, check, check her out. She's. She's great. You guys, I should do off channel. I'll introduce you to. But she's. Yeah, she's a founder and CEO of a. She's also a Wiley author. Just, you know, great stuff. And she's done some stuff on Audible. I guess I'm channeling her because I. That's why I misspoke when saying Audible earlier. But she's got a startup called firemomo. She was a. It's a techstars portfolio company. Full transparency. I advise on that. And they offer tools around coaching and tracking your work and career wins. So she's, you know, she comes from it from a different kind of approach. The same kinds of things that you are talking about in your book are sort of the applications of things that then what she does with her company that keep track of all these different kinds of things that keep track of your, you know, your weekly wins and things along those lines. So we'll, after this, we'll do some introductions and stuff, but you guys are really kind of, you know, cut from the same cloth, so. Okay, so having said that, now I want to go. I want to finish up with maybe some book nerd stuff. So being a Wiley author, you said that, you know, you connected with them. You're on this, like, really amazingly what I would call aggressive, but good for you to get it done that quick kind of timeline. Why Wiley? How. How did you select them? Did you have an agent? Did you have a manuscript that you shopped? Did you have chapters? Tell us how you got not only knocked on Wiley's door, but got through the door.

Wiley reached out to me on LinkedIn, actually.

No kidding. Awesome. Wow.

Because of my LinkedIn presence.

Well, there you go.

Have a good LinkedIn presence. Get a book deal.

Yeah, no kidding. Wow.

We have. Yeah. So it was very exciting. I still remember when my editor, Brian reached out, I just, like, jumped out of my seat. I was like, oh, my gosh, wow. Because I, you know, again, like, the book was in the back of my mind, but I was waiting to work with a publisher, but I hadn't really, like, strategized or thought about how I would go about that. So it was very exciting. They reached out, and funnily enough, a few other publishers reached out soon after. And so I was like, you know, this is. The universe is telling me I need to do this now. Like, I. And again, you know, talk about imposter syndrome. I wait.

They have the right. Lorraine K. Lee. That's. That's how I always feel. Yeah.

I'm like, one year into my business, I'm like, is it. Do I have something to write about right now? Like, I don't. What. So I, So I. I didn't have an idea yet, but, you know, Wiley sent me sort of this outline to fill out. And then I realized when I started drafting my proposal, the ideas flowed across quite quite seamlessly and quite smoothly. So I think. I think I. Actually, I didn't mention before, but I started when I started my business. I attempted a very loose outline of what a book would look like. I was thinking about self publishing, and I just realized I was like, this is so much work. It's so hard. I don't have a clear vision yet. But then a year later, when I'm writing this proposal, it came. Yeah, just very, very fast. I was really appreciative and excited about that and that. And the reason I went with Wiley, you know, one of the things I really liked about them is that they publish your book very quickly. So I think a lot of the other major publishing houses will wait one to two years after you've turned in your book.

Yeah.

And to me, you know, I'm trying to move quickly, trying to build my business, trying to just get my ideas out there. I'm like, oh, that feels like a really long time. So wait, versus Wiley, you know, I turned in my book in November, it came out in April, so just about half a year. So that's great. Yeah.

And maybe lickety split, I mean that my experience, my niche with them is all nonfiction, more so in healthcare, behavioral healthcare, medicine kinds of things. So I mean, we have. Ours is not as. I mean, and maybe ours is skoosh. More evergreen. There's not a whole lot of changes in a lot of the stuff that I write. It took a while. It took. It was over 10 years before I did the second editions of these books, so. So maybe we were a little more glacial and maybe that's part of it. But boy, Lorraine, I have to say, congratulations. I mean, do you think that. Because the audience should know. I don't think this is the norm. I think you are very special. That is just, it really speaks to your, the quality of the content that you do. And you certainly, I mean, it's sort of a, kind of a cool, you know, talk about a demonstration of presence to then see what can result from it. Do you, do you think, was it pre newsletter? Do you think that it was like, what are the. I'm sure it's multiple reasons, but so you're out there, you were doing all the things that you've been talking about that you recommend for people to do, that you've been there and done that, and that it's obviously worked quite well for you. But do you think that the presence of the newsletter helped? Was this before the newsletter came out or what do you think were maybe some of the key things that helped ink a deal with Washington?

I think it was a few different things. I already had the newsletter at that time.

Okay.

So I think what Wiley does more so now for any aspiring authors out there is they are finding more authors on LinkedIn and they're going to LinkedIn to see who is publishing their thoughts and they're reaching out. And I've had a few friends who Wiley has reached out to.

Good for them.

Yeah. And they're like, are you interested in writing a book? Because I see. See you're posting on LinkedIn or I see you Have a newsletter or I see you're a speaker and they're looking for people who have audiences who perhaps speak at companies. Right. Places where that would want to buy the book from you. And so I think it was a combination of all those things. The fact that I have my own business, the fact that I'm posting content regularly, the fact that I'm both on LinkedIn as like a post, but also as a newsletter, and the fact that, that I have a sizable audience. So I think all those things combined really help. And now you certainly don't have to have hundreds of thousands of followers for Wiley to reach out because I know other folks who have fewer followers in the tens of thousands. But yeah, you essentially want to make it known, right? Like the intentional. Make it known that you are comfortable and you enjoy putting your insights out there. Otherwise how is anyone going to know?

Right, exactly, exactly. It's an interesting parallel because again, and my audience tends to be more clinical and academic and so the kinds of things that when we would kind of. I'd have a new idea. I've had a lovely track record with Wiley. Big, big fan shout out. Thank you, Wiley. But it would be sort of like, wow, depending upon the topic. A lot of the stuff that I did is super psychology, nerdy stuff of evidence based practice and treatment planning guides and outcome studies and things along those lines. The big popular ones, I did a couple on developing your own private practice and getting better at your private practice, etc. So those probably have a greater reach. They're not super niche, but they're within someone that wants to have a clinical practice of, you know, whatever ilk. But we also had to like talk about, well, what are those audiences? So it's sort of like I was doing kind of recon to pitch a new book idea. How many licensed clinical psychologists are there in the world or in the United States? How many licensed social workers, psychiatrists, physicians. If it's something that's going to be specific for a course. Course. How many universities teach a course that this could, this book could be adopted for? So I think all those kinds of things. But with you again, it's, you've got such a wonderful audience and obviously too, congratulations again. If I didn't make it clear enough at the beginning, but to be a best seller too, I mean, it's, you know, Wiley, Wiley was very, very present to see that the what you talk about and the ability for you to be able to communicate it is great, great. And maybe one final shout out with the book. I have to say, and I think this is kind of a cool way to kind of keep it evergreen as well, too. Having the QR codes in there is genius. It's just genius. I mean, it's, otherwise your book would be like five volumes or it'd be, you know, you know, 1700 pages or something. But for the chapters and for folks that haven't had a chance to pick the book up yet, for the, there's like certain kinds of things where you've talked about, like how to do a deeper dive in LinkedIn or how to do this or how to do that. And then those links, those qrs are these beautiful. Like, I don't know if Wiley laid those out or if you did those or what artists, but I mean, the way that those are laid out, like, almost like easy to read infographics. Here's the tips. 1, 2, 3, 4. I mean, you've, you've got a stylistic way not only in the printed copy of the book, but also in these, you know, the digital, digital versions of what the QRS lead people to that are just so engaging. And so I could imagine what, what your, your slides look like at a, at a presentation that you would give because you, you have such facility with graphical representations that are easy to understand, easy to digest, eye catching, fun, colorful, you know, so again, tip of the hat to that. I didn't, people wouldn't necessarily see that, you know, thumbing through Amazon. But yeah, once you get the book, those are awesome as well. Tip of the hat, Lorraine.

Thank you. I have to give my team credit for designing all of that. I don't have the design eye like they do.

Yeah, well, good. They did an awesome job. Well, I'm checking the clock, so we've covered a lot of territory. Is there anything that we've missed or anything that we should amplify or that you'd like to add before we wrap up?

I think you covered it. This was a great conversation. Thank you so much.

Well, thank you for doing the book and making the time to be able to do this. So I also have to ask, you know, what's next? What's, what's on the horizon in the upcoming projects or goals that you're excited about?

I think it's just, you know, focusing on the book right now and I'm, you know, doing a lot of speaking engagements. So if anyone, you know, has a book club or a team meeting or off site or all hands or anything like that, I would love to learn more about how I can help support your team and then teaching a the Art of Public Speaking course at Stanford Continuing Studies this summer. So it'll be the second time I'm teaching it, which is very exciting. And then I have my my 20th LinkedIn learning course coming out sometime I believe this summer. So in addition to the book, some exciting other launches as well.

Excellent. Good. Hey, when those do come out, or whenever, you know, send me some links. I'll put those in our newsletter to keep.

Oh, appreciate that.

Yeah, absolutely. Easy enough. So what are some of the best ways? I mean, you've kind of teed us up vis a vis Stanford and Lincoln, but what are ways listeners can learn more, connect with you, get your book, get you on their docket for a keynote or a presentation?

My book can be bought at anywhere where you buy books, so Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc. Also, bulk book buys are possible as well with additional customization. So you can reach out to me@unforgettablepresencebook.com if you're interested in that. Of course you can connect and follow with me on LinkedIn and then my weekly free newsletter, Career Bites. Bite sized tips to supercharge your career in three minutes or less. You can subscribe@lorraineklee.com subscribe Great.

Good. I'll put all that if people are driving or can't write these things down. Those will all appear in our show notes as well too. So. Well, hey, listen, thank you so much for taking the time to be on. I've just, I've really enjoyed it and it's just, it's great to get to know you a little bit better as well too too.

Same here. Yeah, this was so fun. Thank you again.

As a reminder, listeners can read a summary of this episode and access links to the show notes via my LinkedIn Top Voice Companion article, along with past gists as well. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I have and I hope it will help you in your journey to living your life in full. Until next time, Living a Life in Full is a production of Stout Media, a subsidiary of Gordian Knot LLC. Assistant producer Gracie Wong Music Dan O' Brien executive producer and host Dr. Chris Stout to learn more, stop by our website at lifeinfull for show notes and please recommend us to your friends and subscribe on your favorite platform. And as for the obligatory disclaimer, this podcast is for general information uses only and does not constitute the practice of psychology, medicine, nutrition or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical or psychological advice. No doctor patient relationship is formed lastly and Perhaps most importantly, I take conflicts of interest seriously. For all of my disclosures as well as show notes, please see livingalifeinfull.org podcast and my LinkedIn profile. Thanks. And until next time,