Dr Chadi Nabhan on Monsanto Trials :Glyphosate Exposed

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Hey, guys. Criben, governor from the Gut Health Gurus podcast. I've got a background in food science and today we have an amazing guest. It's such an interesting topic. I, I mean, it's something that's really dear to my heart and something that I've tried to talk about quite a lot over the years. And firstly, Chatty Naban, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you. Thank you so much, Cribben. I really appreciate the opportunity. It's pleasure to be with you. It's. It's the first time I am on an Australian podcast.

Wow. I feel very honored that you, you've chosen the Gut Health Gurus to, to. To bring your message out to the world. And Chatty, what I like to do at the start of my podcast is to ask a very open question. Who is Chatty Naban?

I'm a cancer doctor. I'm a. I'm an oncologist, medical oncologist and a hematologist. So I took care of cancer patients for 20 years. In the clinic, I focused mainly on a form of cancer called lymphoma, which is a form of cancer that involves the lymph glands, the immune system and sometimes the bone marrow. And I also did some research in the areas at some clinical trials in lymphoma and some investigations and all of that academic stuff. Then went back to business school. I decided to understand business and economics and I, I got a degree, MBA in healthcare management. I became very interested in just the healthcare system as an ecosystem and how can I help patients. Not necessarily from the bedside, but more from a bigger picture. So I transitioned from academic medicine and I worked at a couple of companies and the last one I'm in right now is a molecular profiling company that, that really profiles tumors to understand the underpinning of the DNA and the RNA of cancers. So we can help in deciding what's the best treatment for patients. Along the way, I became a podcaster. I have my podcast, it's called Healthcare Unfiltered. It's not quite as famous and as popular as yours. But it's hopefully we'll get there maybe in the next hundred years. But I tackle various healthcare topics in general, whether it's policy, leadership, treatment and all of that nature. And as you know, recently I became a book author. I wrote a book which I'm sure we'll talk about and it's just happened with serendipity. So at the, at the heart of everything, who I am, I'm, I'm someone who cares about patients with cancer, treated them and I, and I try to do my best to help patients.

Wow, what an amazing introduction. Thank you so much. Chatty. I'd like to dig a little bit deeper into your clinical days, see if you could jump into a little time machine and go back into firstly, your research studies, the papers that maybe something might pop up and jump out at you that you'd want to share. And then secondly, some potential case studies if you're open to sharing, obviously confidential as possible in terms of client information. But I'm really interested to hear about what your experience is around this, this area of oncology which, which you specialize in.

Yeah, look, you know, career wise, we all evolve sometimes. My least favorite question, when somebody asks you, what are you going to do two in five years? I'm like, who the heck knows? You have to have a cliche answer because unfortunately it's a cliche question. But I've evolved career wise. In the beginning, I was very interested in novel therapies, what type of new treatments for lymphomas I could be involved in, whether it's clinical trials and the type of therapies I could give to patients. But I have to tell you, I became after that interested in two aspects that maybe your listeners and viewers will relate to. One is what we call real world evidence. What does that mean? It means that sometimes patients are treated in clinic and in the real world differently than the patients that were on clinical trials. Because in clinical trials things are so coordinated and they are so organized. You have to give the particular therapy at the particular time, at the particular dose. All of these things. You have to do the CAT scans and the imaging studies at particular intervals. The interpretation is also coordinated and centralized. But then a drug gets approved and it becomes available for physicians to treat and then everything becomes a little bit different. You don't always treat the right at the same dose. You may do the scans in various intervals. So I became interested in understanding patterns of care in the real world, how they vary from clinical trials and how can we really make sense of what Happens in the real world. I also became interested in geriatric oncology. And geriatric is a tough topic because, you know, sometimes if you say somebody is geriatric, it means they're old. But the reality is more cancer patients are diagnosed over a certain age. The majority of cancer deaths are over a certain age, statistically speaking, Although we see cancers in all ages, but statistically, most cancers are in patients over the age of 65, and most people who die from cancer are over the age of 65. We have to pay attention to that field because it is really important to understand how older patients get treated and what happens. As far as stories, you know, Cribben, when you deal with cancer for so many years, There are so many stories to share. But maybe I'll share with you. Actually a story that got me interested in oncology. It's an old story because I'm not young anymore, but it really illustrates the heart of oncology and cancer patients. I was doing my residency, I was a first year resident. And you know, you're nervous. It's. You just don't know much about the field and you're just basically getting into the patient's room, getting the vitals and making sure everything is okay before your attending physician comes in and you want to make sure you tell him or her the story. So I walk into this patient's room. She was in her mid-40s. She was young, beautiful, and just looked like an angel. Honestly, it's hard to describe. I still, to this day, by the way, 28 years later, I still remember her face and her features. I walk in and she had ovarian cancer and her two daughters were sitting with her in the room. And I was just basically copying her vitals on a piece of paper. There was an electronic medical record at the time and just asking her how she was doing. And she surprised me by asking a question. And she said, do you think I'm going to live until Christmas? And I was not prepared. It was October. I was not prepared to answer. I did not know what to say. I did not really feel I am qualified to offer a prognosis in something so sensitive. Plus, she wasn't really my patient. I was just covering the. The floor and as if she sensed how uncomfortable I was, as if she sensed that she was not fair to me in asking the question. Imagine she is the one who has the cancer. She is the one who's dying from cancer. And she felt bad for me. And she looks at me and she says, you know, don't worry I just look forward to seeing you tomorrow with your smile and right there and then I realized the importance of human connection. It is so important. Patients with cancer strive for that. They are more than just a patient. You know, they. The human nature of the relationship is way more critical than the science. Science is important for the progress, but that human connection is there. And I fell in love with the relationships that you form with your patients with cancer. You know, I'll finish with this when you. When your health is jeopardized, whatever health issue you have, you are at the most vulnerable time in your life. Whatever health issue is, health is the most precious thing that you actually have. And imagine you are at the most vulnerable time of your life, and you have to trust a complete stranger that you just met for the first time with your health, with your treatment decisions and everything. It's a privilege to take care of patients. It's a privilege to take care of people. But that story has stayed with me for over two decades.

Wow, that's really touching. Chadi, thank you so much for sharing. What is cancer? Chatty.

What.

What is it and why does it affect us? According to what you mentioned earlier, perhaps statistically, more in our later. The later parts of our life.

Yeah, look. So cancer, our body. I'll step back. Our body is composed of various organs. Every organ is composed of cells. These cells, usually, they are present in a very harmonized manner, so they grow and multiply, and then they die and they are replaced by new cells. So there is this balance between cell survival and cell death. And cells die. They have this natural life cycle. Something happens that basically tips that balance off. So either the cells continue to grow and they don't die naturally, or, you know, again, the balance of, you know, growth and death is completely off. That leads to the formation of growths or tumors. And these tumors could be cancerous and malignant. What that means cancer is an imbalance between cell survival and cell death. And it could happen in any organ. There is no organ that could not become cancerous because every organ has cells. Now, why is the balance tipped off? That's the question, right? The balance tip top. For a variety of reasons, but generally, there are mutations that occur in our body in the. Basically the structure of the cell, in the DNA of, in. In the backbone of the cell. So think of a building, right? And the building is. Has bricks and walls, but these walls and these bricks could get damaged. Now, why would they get damaged? There are external factors that could damage these bricks. There are external factors that could damage the Cells that we have in our body. You know, sun exposure could actually cause problems in the skin and all of these things. Right. You know, we could, you know, smoking, it's external thing that we do, Pesticides that we'll talk about and herbicides and things of that nature. So again, there are external factors that affect these cells, affects and damage these cells. So the balance is tipped off. There are internal factors, such as mutations that are actually inherited from fathers and mothers to the. To the sons and daughters. I mean, there are certain familial reasons that usually occur, and you have really no say in it. It just happened to be passed on to you in from birth. And then there are certain things pertaining to things just wear and tear, which is, to your point, pertaining to the older folks. I mean, buildings, sometimes there's nothing external or internal. It's just they're, you know, 100 years old and you can tell they're older. So the bricks are not the same. The repair mechanism is damaged. Our body is actually an amazing machinery. So even though the cells are damaged, we're able to actually correct that damage that happens to the cell. As we get older, our ability to repair that damage becomes much more, less. But is that just because of age or is that because of other factors that also affect older folks as opposed to younger folks? I don't personally believe age by itself causes cancer. I'm not a firm believer that you tell somebody you have cancer because you're old. That's not a cause. But just because it happens more in older people doesn't mean that the age caused it directly. We have to look behind the curtain and see, okay, what happened in that older individual. And in fact, I'm actually writing my second book now about cancer, Trying to help cancer patients, patients, all of this. But anyway, hopefully this simplifies things. I like to simplify it. Hopefully it's not complicated.

Sure. That's really simple. I appreciate you showing that. So, in a nutshell, it's just a combination of genetics, which. Which you mentioned, and. And epigenetics. So external factors that might push the body into a dysregulated state, which then causes the disease. So thank you so much for sharing, and I'm sure the audience might be really interested to hear it from a specialist like yourself. What are the typical treatment options available? And then secondly, what are the preventative measures that people can take to potentially prevent the disease in the first place?

Yeah. So if it's okay, Cribben, I want to step back just a little bit because I think that it is important to recognize that cancer is not one disease. Because when we ask a question such as how do you treat cancer? And how do you prevent cancer? It implies that cancer is one entity, which is not the case. Sure, we all can agree that breast cancer is different than prostate cancer, it's different than ovarian cancer, it's different than brain cancer, and you get the gist. So I think there are certain risk factors that are more applicable to certain cancers, may not be applicable to other cancers. I mean, smoking as an example. I am not aware of smoking increasing the risk of brain tumors, but we all know that smoking increases the risk of lung cancer and bladder cancer. I'm not aware that smoking increases the risk of prostate cancer. Now, it doesn't mean it's okay to smoke, but I think it's important to recognize that the cancer as an entity differs, depends on the organ. So the treatment and the risk factors and the causative factors differ. I think to your point, though, there are certain general factors that are common sense that we should all try to adhere to that will help reduce our risk. In general, I mentioned smoking. Alcohol is an interesting substance because the jury is out on it. In general, there are some data on increasing the risk in breast cancer, for example, in pancreas cancer, but it's really not clear what that means. I mean, if you drink a glass of wine a week, is that really bad? Is it hard liquor? Is it beer? It's not clear. So I. I think it's controversial. So I always say from an alcohol standpoint, you know, be a minimalist as much as possible. I think that would be my recommendation. Being exercise and staying fit is very important. Obesity. Avoiding obesity is critical. There are 14 cancers that have been linked to obesity now. Doesn't mean that the other ones who are not linked, it's okay just to eat whatever you want. I still think you need. Need to indulge and enjoy food. Life is short, and you have to be also reasonable. But you could do that in a healthy manner. You have to exercise and stay fit. And exercise does not mean you need to be running a marathon or doing a triathlon. Could be walking briskly, could be doing a lot of things. These are important. So these are like, in general things that I always recommend. I mean, professionally, I think there are certain professions that have increased risk of certain cancers, and I think these vary as far as the treatment. Of course, every cancer is treated differently. But when you think about the general types of treatment we apply to any cancer, sometimes surgery, and there are different ways of doing surgery, sometimes radiation therapy, sometimes chemotherapy, sometimes immunotherapy, sometimes hormonal therapy, sometimes targeted therapy. But which ones you select and what you do depends on the cancer itself. Lymphoma, as an example, is not treated surgically. Colon cancer is treated surgically. Breast cancer is treated surgically. So again, it depends on the disease.

That's a great clarification. I mean, you're completely apt in saying this. There's so many different types. It is a gut health guru's podcast, so I'd be remiss to not dive a little bit deeper into the gastrointestinal path. So you mentioned colorectal cancer, colon cancer, stomach cancers. Is there any further light you can shine on these type of cancers and what we can be doing to potentially mitigate the risk?

Yeah, so maybe we'll talk about colon cancer a little bit. I think from a colon cancer perspective, the best way to divide it maybe into two categories. One category is the colon cancer that is passed on genes that are passed on from family to their children that lead to increase the risk of colon cancer. And usually this is under the, what we call the lynch syndrome. The lynch syndrome is a syndrome where patients have a, you know, mutations in genes called the mismatch repair genes. And when this occur, they increase the risk of developing colon cancer. And when these, you know, usually these patients should undergo colonoscopies early on in their life for the ones that are not related to a genetic mutation that is inherited. Most of these cancers evolve from polyps inside the colon. So because these polyps usually start forming at the age of 45 and above the guidelines, at least today in the United States, I'm not really sure in Australia, but in the United States is to undergo colonoscopies at the age of 45. And depending on the results, you can repeat every 5 years or every 10 years and all of that. So that is in terms of what type of screening as far as what might cause colon cancer. I think GI oncology is not personally my specialty, but I think that there has been some studies on red meat, for example, low fiber diet and things of that nature. And you can criticize every study because there's no study that's perfect. So I try to tell my patients is eat healthy and be realistic. On the upper GI tract in the stomach and the esophagus. We see these more prevalent in Asian countries, Japan, China, other areas. And it's been hypothesized that some of the reasons we see that is because of the type of diet that they have, which is very spicy, lots of smoking and alcohol together because they become synergistic in terms of causing that type of disease in the esophagus and the stomach. So it's really important to pay attention to that. There are certain ulcers that occur in the duodenum and the stomach. They are caused by a bacteria called H. Pylori. H. Pylori is a bacteria that increases the risk of certain ulcers in the stomach and the first part of the small intestine. And there's some data that H. Pylori could be associated with increased risk of gastric cancer as well. It is present and prevalent in certain countries and sometimes it's there, it doesn't cause any problem. But if it causes ulcers and things of that nature, then it could actually have issues. So, you know, not being a specialist in GI oncology, that's what I could say. I think Criben, you probably familiar with a lot of research on the microbiome, right? There's a lot of data on this and a lot of people are interested in the microbiome and how this really might affect gut health and everything else. And I think it's important to keep a close eye on that field. I'm very interested in that. I'm actually going to do a podcast on it as well. There's also maybe going back to the colon. Patients with Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, tend to have higher risk of developing colon cancer. So we usually watch them carefully and do lots of monitoring. So, you know, it's important to discuss this with the doctor that is supervising the care of the patient.

That's amazing. Chatty. I appreciate you stepping a little bit outside the comfort zone to tackle a gut related question, but I think all those points that you touched on are so, so on point. So thank you for sharing. I think a nice little segue there. You mentioned the importance of diet, on potentially mitigating some of these risks. And the reason why I sort of, I came across your work is the amazing book you've written, Toxic Exposure and really going down the path of tackling some of these issues around pesticides. So I think that's a perfect way we can subtly segue into this famous trial that you've recently been involved in. So firstly, in a nutshell, can you just let the audience know what the lowdown is with this very high profile trial you've been involved in?

Yeah, you know, I, I, I did not, I, I never considered myself an expert Witness, which means you are a physician that testifies in trials right and left. But I, as serendipity has it, I end up testifying in three major trials. In the first three major trials that were brought against Monsanto for their Roundup herbicide. So Monsanto is a company that manufactures Roundup. Roundup is an herbicide. And the main ingredient of Roundup is a chemical called glyphosate. And Roundup has been used in the United states commercially since 1974 by Monsanto. And in 1995 or in the mid-90s, Monsanto introduced something called Roundup Ready seeds. These are GMOs. And basically what that means is the farmers could spray Roundup on the weeds, and they kill the weeds, but they also spray on their crops, and the seeds are not damaged and they're not affected, and they're able to harvest and everything is fine. So the use of Roundup increased significantly. But what does that mean? It means that Roundup is present in our food because you're actually spraying on corn, soybean, alfalfa, cotton, everywhere. And this eventually becomes your food in cereal, in bread, and in everything. But this wide use of Roundup and glyphosate led the who, the World Health Organization, and a subdivision of that called iarc, the International Agency for Research on Cancer, to investigate whether glyphosate has any carcinogenic potentials. So they gathered some scientists and they looked at the published evidence, they looked at animal studies, mechanistic studies, human studies. And they issued a report in March 2015 that glyphosate, which is the main ingredient of Roundup, is a probable human carcinogen, which means it increases the risk in some patients to develop cancer. After that, lawsuits started happening, and patients who were heavily exposed to Roundup started suing Monsanto because they alleged that the lymphoma they had developed is because of the Roundup that they used. I was contacted by one of the firms in the spring of 2016 because of my expertise in lymphoma, asking me if I'm willing to look at the evidence and testify on behalf of the patients. Because most of the data was not in all cancers, was mainly in non Hodgkin lymphoma. I said, I'm not familiar with the evidence. I know about pesticides increasing the risk of lymphoma, but I'm willing to study and investigate this, and I agree to that. So I read and I studied, and basically I found out that I was convinced that there is a relationship. And with that, I agreed to testify. So I testified in the first three trials against Monsanto and Roundup. All of these trials were won by the patients and the first one was in the summer of 2018, which was a big, big trial. Johnson against Monsanto.

Chari, thank you so much for sharing that initial intro into this very famous case that you've been involved in. I'd like to ask a couple of follow up questions from that. Firstly, what is the history of glyphosate from your research?

Yeah, so glyphosate was actually discovered originally in the 50s by Swiss chemists and subsequently was patented by monsanto in the 70s when a couple of scientists that worked for Monsanto discovered that it has these capabilities. It's a mineral chelator and it does have the capabilities of killing weeds. It affects a particular enzyme that is present in plants. And you know, Monsanto patented and they basically made added surfactants to it and water and other soluble chemicals and it became Roundup. Surfactants are basically like foamy materials that usually lead to more makes the glyphosate more sticky, so it gets more sticky on the weeds and does its job. So if it affects the skin, there's more absorption because of the surfactants. So the composition of all of this made Roundup. But glyphosate was discovered originally in the 1950s. And Roundup is not glyphosate alone, it's glyphosate plus surfactant plus other material.

So there's some sort of a mechanistic action of the chemical structure of the glyphosate plus the surfactant that makes up Roundup, which targets plants in some ways almost like a herbicide to kill them.

Right. So basically when Monsanto introduced Roundup Ready seeds, basically what they were able to do using the gmo, they were able to make sure that that enzyme with the genetically modified or you know, process, the enzyme that the Roundup usually targets or glyphosate targets, is not present in these crops and the seeds. So then the Roundup or glyphosate is affecting the weeds, but not affecting the crops. So you're able to grow these, you know, the crops, harvest your, the corn and the soybean and everything. So that's really why the use of Roundup increased significantly after that. And guess who, by the way, manufactured Roundup ready seeds? Monsanto.

Right. So it's, you're creating a, almost a system where the Roundup or lyphosate plus surfactant wipes out all the vegetation but these special type of seeds and crops that grow from these seeds are able to resist the Roundup. So thus reducing a lot of labor on the farm and whatnot.

Exactly.

And obviously patenting these seeds to make sure that there's no real viable option.

Exactly. But, you know, I mean, if you think about it now you're the same company that is manufacturing Roundup for the weeds and Roundup Ready seeds, so you're profiting either way. It's great.

And how, how long is this, this glyphosate being, you know, in our food system? So did you mention 1950s or something like that?

Well, I think, I think it started really making its way more in the mid to late 90s, because that's really when it was being sprayed on all of the crops. And what I obviously focused on and what I read and researched and, and the topic of the trials I testified in was mainly in lymphoma, cancer and glyphosate. But it would be. I mean, look, we should really ask ourselves, is it possible that some of the ailments that we are seeing in today's world may be related to the wide use of glyphosate? And around the. All over the place, it is the most used weed killer in the world. You know, billions have been sprayed all over. You know, once the Roundup Ready seeds became available, you could actually have the airplanes and just spraying all of the Roundup all over the corn fields because you no longer fear that you're going to damage the corn. Right. So I think, I think it's there. I mean, there's a lot we know. It's in cereal, in bread, and everywhere. The question is, is it really causing additional issues, autoimmune diseases? Is it affecting the gut? You know, your podcast is causing gut leaky syndrome, and we have some data on that. Is this really affecting other things beyond cancer, which, again, have a lot of effects on illnesses and quality of life? I did not necessarily study that per se, but I know a lot of people that really questioned this, and I think it's important to study it and investigate it, of course.

And. And if you're just spraying it into the environment, it's going to get into waterways and, oh, for sure into into livestock. And it's. It's just completely ubiquitous in the environment, so it's almost impossible to avoid. I take a walk down to my. My local park, and probably once a month you've got the council workers and gardeners spraying. I'm sure it's Roundup or some sort of pesticide, weed killers to kill the weeds. So it's so hard to avoid. What do we do?

It is very hard to avoid. I think there are two things that. Well, first of all, I think the fact it's hard to avoid should not be an excuse that we should not have a solution. At some point everybody smoked. I mean, everybody did at some point. Doctors smoked. They were on commercials. If you go right now and Google doctors commercials on smoking, you're gonna find one of them. Where they put doctors prefer Camel, you know, the brand, I mean, in the hostel. So it was all over. It was sexy to smoke, it was on tv, it was ads, all of these things. And now we know it's bad for you and you can still choose to smoke, but at least you know it's bad for you. So, yes, it's ubiquitous, but we should have a solution. And I think there's a big opportunity here to actually for some entrepreneur people to come up with a different way of killing weeds without damaging the environment and without damaging people. I don't know what that is, but I think it's an opportunity for somebody who is innovative, who is whatever. I mean, maybe somebody from Australia. But really, I think it is important. There's a lot of hunger for this and lots of need for this. The other thing I would say, Cribben, is that Monsanto, the manufacturer of Roundup, has always argued that Roundup is safe because the epa, the Environmental Protection Agency in the United States of America, has said it is safe. And that is, I respectfully disagree with the epa. I think they got it wrong. And if you look at the original documents, which I detail in the book, by the way, and I detail the documents from the EPA from the early 80s, the EPA said it was carcinogenic back in the 80s and then they changed their position without any new data that they received. So I mentioned that because I think there's an opportunity for all of us as citizens to basically lobby and put some pressure on the regulatory agencies, whether they're in the US in Australia or everywhere. And these regulatory agencies then need to demand more from the manufacturer. They need to put some strict guidelines, they need to demand some more studies, and they need to make sure that they really put the safety of their citizens front and center.

100% agree, Chari. And that's the beauty of capitalism is that the consumer has the ability to influence the behavior of manufacturers by their wallets. Which products are you choosing? Is it choosing organic based products? Is it choosing water based products that have been tested for Glyphosate. Whilst we're not going to completely eliminate glyphosate from the environmental exposures completely, like totally. You know, just like with any chemical, dose level matters. So by reducing the dose levels that our bodies are exposed to, I can hypothesize that there would be some benefits in mitigating the risks of glyphosate using that strategy. So where do we go from here? I have to ask the question. The glaring, obvious question that came to my mind is why don't you just put your neck out there? I mean, you pretty much testifying against a behemoth, you know, with endless amounts of resources. That was an extremely brave move.

Well, first of all, I had no idea what I was getting into. I literally had no idea. I did not even know how big this was going to be. I realized the impact when I read the science. I became convinced and I was able to read additional internal documents that were shared with me through the discovery process about Monsanto's behavior and about Monsanto's ghost writing and about Monsanto's internal email communication. But I did not know how big this is going to be. And I want to make sure I'm clear that this was not just my effort. I mean, there was many other expert witnesses. I was the medical oncologist, but there were other expert witnesses, epidemiologists, toxicologists, statisticians. So other folks that were obviously part of the team. I did my part and they did their part. But ultimately it was a team that led to exposing the truth, in my opinion, why I did this. Like I said, I did not know it was going to be that big, but I'm glad I did. It was the right thing to do. And I can tell you I didn't really think I was going to write a book about it. But eventually I did. Because in one of the court testimonies, the Monsanto lawyer, when I was on the stand, he said, well, how come you did not? You don't go around the world and lecture about this and talk about this and tell people about this? And I said I didn't know. I said I wasn't sure. It's allowed. I said, I'm an actively testifying expert. I don't think I'm allowed. He said, no, no, you are. I said, okay, then I'll do it. But I thought the best way to do it is to write a book to the public. Write a book. Not for doctors, not for lawyers, it's to the public. So the book is written in an easy to Understand manner. It is not written for healthcare professionals or legal professionals. It's written for anybody who is interested in that topic. It is. It's a story. I, hopefully I was able to tell a story and educate people about what actually happened. I wasn't really trying to lecture people. This is not a textbook. This is a story. This is the story of the first three patients that took Monsanto to court. What happened in the courtroom, in depositions, in trial, what was the evidence? But it's really through my lens because I tell people in the introduction, I'm not a legal expert, I'm not an environmentalist. I'm a doctor that took care of patients. And I want them to see what I went through because I wasn't knowledgeable enough about this. And I take them through what I learned through the process, so they really know how I came to the conclusion that I came to.

You know, that's brilliant. I mean, it's so courageous. Even, Even if you kind of stepped onto the landmine by accident, you kind of. You found yourself in this position, but hats off to each other. That's. That's so great. I really encourage people to get a copy of the book Toxic Exposure and just read about this, this journey. And what's the, what's the timeline? When was the, the actual trials? When you were testifying to the book release?

Yeah. The first trial was in the summer of 2018. It was big, Cribben. It was big. Everybody was there. It was all over the newspapers. It was on tv, on the Wall Street Journal, just everywhere. It was pretty big. It was the first trial ever. And at the time, by the way, for your listeners at the time, Bayer was acquiring Monsanto. So Bayer, the large German pharmaceutical company, paid $63 billion to acquire Monsanto. And after they bought Monsanto and the deal closed in the fall of 2018. After the first trial, I think Bayer underestimated the power of litigation and the power of patience. They probably did not really appreciate what was going on because their stocks went down by two thirds and it's still down. So they've lost so much in market cap. After the acquisition, they paid $63 billion. They lost a lot of market cap. The shareholders voted loss of confidence in the CEO of Bayer, who is gone right now. There's a new CEO that started about a month ago. So a lot of things happened. The Wall Street Journal called the acquisition one of the worst business deals. So all of this was happening so you could imagine the publicity about these trials. And here I was. I didn't know how big this was. So this was the first trial was in July 2018, and the verdict came out in August 2018. The second trial was a federal trial, was in federal court, and this was in March 2019. And the third trial was in state court also, and it was in May 2019. There continues to be additional trials, but the subject of the book were these three trials. And I started writing the book after that. It took me about three years to write pretty much. And then obviously with COVID things slowed down. So the book was released in February 2023, about four months ago. And I'm glad to see a lot of uptake and a lot of folks are interested in it because again, this is not a legal book or a medical book. It's a story about what happened in those two years. 2018, 2019.

Sounds fascinating. I think a lot of audience members would love to grab a copy of the Toxic Exposure and dig deep into this topic. And what is the, the estimated payouts and damages from, from these three trials with, with these.

So I, I'll have to tell you that this, these three trials led to a large settlement for over a hundred thousand patients for about $11 billion. Oh, this is the settlement. Okay. And I don't know obviously how much each patients received, but that is the. It's one of the largest product liabilities settlements in the United states history. The first trial, Johnson vs. Monsanto, the verdict was $289 million. It eventually went down with appeal and everything. The second trial, Hardiman against Monsanto, was 85 million. It also went down with appeal. But interesting cribbing. The Hardiman trial was the trial that Monsanto decided to take all the way to the United States Supreme Court. But the Supreme Court refused to listen to hear the trial. They said, no, we're not going to hear the trial. The third trial, the damages and the verdict was for $2 billion. One billion each patient, it was a couple, was an elderly couple, Alva Pillard and Alberta Piliad, and $1 billion each. So a lot of damages, a lot of money, plus lawyer fees, plus market cap, plus the payout. And Bayer to this day refuses to acknowledge that maybe this could cause cancer in some patients. I mean, they could just put a warning label and call it a day, but the reason they don't want to put a warning label is because it affects profit.

Wow, that is really unbelievable. And I think it's a perfect circular connection to what you said earlier. Health is the most important thing. It's priceless. So irregardless of whether these, these, these poor folks that have ended up in court to challenge this behemoth, they get a little bit, quite a lot of money actually. But that doesn't give them your life back. No, it doesn't give you your life back. It's like the booby prize. You know, your life's been destroyed, your health's been destroyed, but at the end of the day you pretty much get a bit of money to keep your mouth shut. You know, that's what, what it comes down to. So hopefully this message can get out there and inspire people to make the right choices when it comes to their diet, what they're doing in their garden. You know, it's such an Aussie thing to grab a bottle of Roundup and spray it all over the place. I've been guilty of that myself. You know, being a bit, bit slack in the garden and just finding all the weeds and just spraying them with Roundup. But you know, if you have to.

Do this, you must wear protective gear.

Yes.

Wear gloves. Don't have it come to your skin. I mean, again, I think ideally you need to avoid it, but at least people need to be aware of the risk and make sure that they just don't get exposed their skin to it.

Completely agree. And the other factor, chatty is we don't fully understand what the flow on effect is. Once we spray this into our gardens, into our soils, how does it affect the soil microorganisms, the soil microbiome, how is it affecting us long term? How's it affecting our gut microbiome? You know, so it's just something. I just think the wisest thing is just avoid it. Avoid it. I agree with you as much as possible. There's too many unknowns there and it's really not just not worth the risk from what we're seeing, especially with this massive, massive lawsuit. So I agree. Hopefully some sanity pervades in terms, prevails in terms of the regulatory bodies and all, all that sort of jazz. I'm not holding my breath, but I think there's enough power in the hands of the consumers to speak with their wallets to avoid the product and eventually it's, it's going to come off market. I'm, I'm, I'm certain of that. With, with an.

I am hopeful. I mean, Bayer did promise that they're going to pull roundup off the US market for residential use in 2023. That will only be available to farmers and pesticide applicators. So for residential use, it's not going to be available, but it's still available. I can go to the store and I can find it right there. They have not pulled it out yet.

And then the other point is, is choosing organic. You know, it does, it, it does cost more, but it costs a lot more to produce. You know, if you've got Roundup ready crops and you're spraying everything with Roundup, you know, your labor costs are far easier. The, the gross margins on your farm are a lot, a lot more attractive. So it's going to be cheaper to produce, but what is the price on your health? So guys, easy, easy option. Choose, choose organics. Choose companies that are not putting chemicals in your food. You know, I have a very simple ethos. It's called Jeff, Just eat real food without all the crap and all the, the additives and chemicals and sprays and whatnot. Chatty. So thank you so much for coming into the podcast. You know, I think that's a perfect place to wrap up. People can go out and grab your book Toxic Exposure and explore this topic in far more detail and depth. You've put your, you know, three years of your life into making this, this masterpiece. So guys, highly encourage you going out and grabbing a copy of the book. In closing, I always like to ask my guests, what is the best thing you could do for your gut health today?

I think you mentioned it. I really think we need to avoid the chemicals, artificial chemicals that we have on the food when you are able to eat organic food. I do strongly believe I didn't believe in that that much when I first started. I think the more I learned, I'm, I've changed my mind and I'm, I, it's. There's nothing wrong in being educated and changing your mind and admitting that maybe there's a better way to doing things. I think when able get organic food support these small, you know, farmer markets and these folks, not these large industrialized nations that think about farming. They're not, they don't have really your health at the center of, of their mind. What they have in their mind is how do I make more money? That's what they care about.

Exactly. So beautifully said. And if people want to connect with you, how do they find you?

Feel free to. I'm on Twitter at Shadinabhan. I have a website www.shadinabhan.com. they can follow me and check out my podcast Healthcare Unfiltered. It is on every Tuesday morning tackling healthcare topics on Instagram. Chady underscore Healthcare Unfiltered and I put all of my podcasts on YouTube at Shadi and Healthcare Unfiltered and they can also email me@shadinabhan0outlook.com I'm happy to answer your questions.

Wonderful. Thank you so much.

Chadi Crabin thank you. It's been an honor and a privilege to be with you.

We hope you enjoyed this episode of the Gut Health Gurus podcast with Dr. Chadi Nabhan. If you found this podcast valuable, leave us a kind review and five stars on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube or your favorite podcasting app. If you want to connect with our host, Kriben Govinda, please follow him on Instagram, Facebook and TikTokthealthgurus. Also check out our Gut Health Gurus Facebook group with 17,000 plus members ready to help you on your journey to amazing gut health. This episode is sponsored by Nourish Me Organics. Head to www.nourishmeorganics.com and use the code HappyGut for 10% off. Make sure to check out their range of organic supplements until next time.