Dr Gabor Somlyai on Deuterium and Cancer

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Hey guys. Cribbin Govender from the Gut Health Gurus podcast. I've got a background in food science. My colleague right next to me is all things psychology with a psychology background. And apologies, I've got a bit of a croaky throat today. So please, please be forgiving of my poor vocal quality. But we have a absolutely stunning guest today. His name is Dr. Gabor. I'm going to totally mess up his last name. Thank you for sparing me the pain of trying to get the pronunciation correct. Somlayi.

Yeah, Gabor.

I just wanted to say thank you for coming onto the podcast. And how we typically start our podcast is just to get to know who Gabor is. So who is Dr. Gabor? Somlayi?

Okay, so my name is Gambol Somuyi. The L and Y is one letter in Hungarian language. I graduated as a molecular biologist in 1982. Then I received a scholarship from the Hungarian Academy of Sciences. Then I defended my PhD. I worked in Hungary, in Germany, in the United States. And I had a very old idea during my even before I went to the university I had one of my idea relating to cancer research. The idea was that the hydrogen has a key role in the cell psycho regulation. And four years later when I was a student another idea came to my mind that was in 1980 that the hydrogen deuterium together is able to regulate the cancer growth or the cell multiplication. But I had to wait till 1990 when I came back from United States. Then I started my research on a cancer field. Before that I did DNA work and gene mapping and that type of work. But in 1990 I started to investigate my old idea whether this deuterium has any role in living organism. And that should be a real key to solve that kind of problem.

Sure. And that just highlights I guess your credentials and I guess you've been talking about what we're going to be talking about for a long, long time. So I thought we would start off by, by asking you a question. And I think when I when I mentioned the name Albert Signori, what does that mean to you?

Albert Seniori is one of the Hungarian Nobel laureates. He was a very clever, clever scientist. He was who Discovered the vitamin C. The people know the vitamin C. So he was the Hungarian scientists who discovered the importance of vitamin C. And he was a key person in that story. Because in the 70s he visited Hungary and there was an interview with seniority. And seniority said that if you want to solve the cancer problem, you have to go sub molecular level. Sub molecular level. And that time I was a teenager, but I remember for that sentence. And so the reason I think we are in that stage now, where we are now, that hopefully getting close to the breakthrough in cancer research. It started roughly 40, 50 years ago. Because he was so clever that recognized that. That the life is so complex, that impossible, that it is organized by big protein molecules. And this is the reason he recommended that he should go to the submolecular level. And he suggested that the electrode should be that submolecular part of this story. And I saw not the negatively charged electron, but the positively charged hydrogen. But at the end of the story, this is the two side of the same coin. Because when there is proton, you need an electron. Or if there is some electron, you need a positively charged proton. So finally, this is the same story. Anyway.

Sure. And I think Albert was certainly from my research, a huge inspiration for you. And I did come across that you wrote. You scribbled down on a piece of paper on at that very young age. Do you want to describe to the audience what was actually written on that piece of paper?

Yeah, it was in 1976, May 21st. And the reason what I wrote down that the hydrogen has a key role in cancer development. So this is what I put on the paper, the hydrogen. And after that I kept it in my mind that the hydrogen. The hydrogen. The hydrogen. And four years later, when I. During our study, we learned about the ph, the entropy enthalpy. And at that time came to my mind that the heavy hydrogen, the deuterium also present in the nature. And then I suppose that these two kind of hydrogen would have a key role in the molecular system, in the biological system.

Amazing. So I guess Albert Signore was one of the early guys that really focused on these sub molecular particles, for want of a better word. And so you mentioned this term now deuterium. I mean, most people across the planet would have no idea what deuterium is. But from. From what you guys are saying, deuterium is so important. So are you able to define what deuterium actually is?

Yeah. So people have heard about heavy water. When we talk about heavy water, we need to nuclear power plant. They used heavy water. And the heavy water means that not to hydrogen binds to the oxygen, but to deuterium. The deuterium is a heavy hydrogen. It means in the nucleus there is one proton with mass number one and bind a neutron, which mass number one. So the deuterium mass number is two. And due to the 100% mass difference, the deuterium behaves differently in chemical reaction. And this is a key issue because if we have two hydrogen behaving in the same way in a chemical reaction, then doesn't count whether it's. It's. We called it hydrogen deuterium. But in that case, because the deuterium is completely different in biochemical reaction, it can count. So and the question was whether the life used out that there is a heavy hydrogen. And this is the question what I addressed.

Mm. And it's so significant because I mean hydrogen is a backbone for so many chemicals all around us, our bodies, our water, our proteins. It's one of these fundamental elements, is what I'm trying to say. So are you saying that deuterium can replace hydrogen? Is that how it works?

So yeah, I would say the other way. So when during the evolution, I think there was a time when there was a small bacteria or very primitive living organism, they could regulate the life on a molecular level. But like humans or animals or plants, they are so complex. Those who are not an expert in biology, I typically say that think about that 1 25th part of a millimeter is 40 micrometer is the size of a cell. Within a cell there is a nucleus. The nucleus diameter is 100 micrometer, which means 100 parts of the millimeter. And within that nucleus there is a DNA which length is 1.8 meter length. 1.8 meter DNA is packaged in the nucleus which sizes 100 micrometer. So it's so small and it contains the 1.8 meter length DNA and it's covering 25,000 genes in one single cell. There are 2,000 biochemical processes and it works perfectly. Our body consists of 37 trillion cells and all the cells are in harmony with each other. And then we are fine. So the question is, how can the light organized that very complex system, the 2000 biochemical processes triggering the gene expression, suppressing the gene expression. And the reason that the cell can do it, that it is organized and regulated on a sub molecular level, which means the cells are able to modify the deuterium hydrogen ratio, the molecules. We do what the DH ratio is said to do. And so it's normal that the deuterium is in our body and it's present in the nature. And the life used oath that there is heavy hydrogen. And the life was able to build up a regulatory system using out that there is. There are two hydrogen in nature behaving different in chemical reaction. So it's okay that we have deuterium on the earth, we have deuterium in the ocean, we have deuterium in the food and in the surface water. The key issue is when someone get cancer or someone gets some other diseases. And the question is how can we cure them or treat them? Whether we can use out that there is that sub molecular regulatory system. And this is what we are doing, this is what we are researching to figure out how it works.

Right, so you guys are trying to establish how the cells actually can regulate that ratio.

Yes, yes. So the key method is now that we published the very first paper in 1993. The title was A nature occurring deuterium is essential to normal growth rate of cells. And in that study I prepared deuterium depleted water. And I checked how the cell culture behaves and can grow if we prepare media with deuterium depleted water. And the result was when the cells were put into the deuterium depleted media, the cell growth was stopped, suggesting that the cells necessary to have a given amount of deuterium. And in the paper we published in that paper, we also published that we put human breast cancer into mice and we replaced the normal water with deuterium depleted water of the mice. And that way we can eliminate the tumor from the mice. So all these data suggested that somehow the cancer require the deuterium to keep the cell growth and to manage the tumor growth in mice. Independently from our study, there were lots of paper suggesting that when the growth hormone bind to the membrane, that will stimulate the so called hydrogen sodium hydrogen antiport, which means the cell take up the sodium and throw out the hydrogen. And it means that ph goes up as the hydrogen ion concentration is decreasing in the cell. Everybody agreed that somehow this is a signal for the cell to multiply. But nobody could explain finally what is the final signal that the cell will multiply. What we said in the very first paper was that when the growth hormone bind to the membrane stimulate the sodium hydrogen transport system, that we prefer to eliminate the hydrogen. It means the deuterium level will increase within the cell, okay? Because the membrane will discriminate between the two hydrogen. So eliminate the hydrogen, keep back the deuterium, so the DH ratio will increase. And we say this is a signal for the cell to multiply. If the cell healthy Cells or cancer cells can lift up the DH ratio to the threshold. That will be a signal for the cell and the cell will multiply.

Right.

So this is the accelerator and the question is where is the brake? And the brake system is in the mitochondria. So when we are eating the food and we burn the food, we burn the food to carbon dioxide and water. It is called metabolic water. Everybody every day producing deuterium depleted water the body. This is what the healthy cells can do. And if we compare the cancer cells with the healthy cells, what is the only difference? The only difference is the mitochondria, that in the healthy cells, the mitochondria is working properly. They are able to produce deuterium depleted metabolic water. But we know since Warburg that the cancer cells mitochondria doesn't work properly. No. 3 carbon cycle cycle. So the cancer cells are not able to produce deuterium depleted metabolic water. It means that for a cancer cells, because the damaged mitochondria very easy to lift up the deuterium hydrogen ratio to the threshold. This is the reason that the cancer will grow.

I'm going to press pause there for a second. Now let's go back to what are mitochondria? So this is fascinating because I think mitochondria and especially mitochondrial health is going to be increasingly relevant and important. So how about we define what is a mitochondria?

Yeah. So within that cell there are lots of small cell organelles and one of them is the mitochondria. Mitochondria is producing the ATP. So when we eat the food and the energy which is stored in the carbohydrate, in the lipids is converted by the mitochondria to ATP. And the cells can use up that type of energy source for other chemical reactions. The ATP is covered with a double membrane and on the membrane There are the ATPase, which is a so called nanomotor. It means spin 9,000 times per minute. And this is fueled by the hydrogen ion. So it's essential for the mitochondria and for the ATP is whether the mass number of the hydrogen is 1 or mass number is 2, depending on the. Because this is a fuel to speed up the nanomotor of the atps. And there are other biochemical process in the mitochondria, because so the mitochondria receiving the typically two carbon and that carbon goes to the three carbon cycle and generating the ATP. And the other key issue with the mitochondria that what is the carbon source? Because depending on what we eat that will determine the deuterium level of the metabolic water. So when I, when I went to the supermarket and bought different kind of food, sugar, cottage cheese, fat or butter or this thing, and I asked the scientists to take out the water from the food and burn the dry food to water and carbon dioxide and tell me what is the deuterium concentration of the different food. And it turned out that the carbohydrate contains 150 ppm. The ppm means. There were 150 deuterium out of 1 million trillion. You have about 155 ppm because you are very close to the equatorial area. But when we check the D level of the fat, it was 100, 118 ppm. So it was very depleted. And the same with the butter. So when we take lots of carbohydrate from the carbohydrate, the mitochondria, we produce normal deuterium containing water. So in that case the metabolic water deconcentration is higher. Comparing when we eat the fat and digest the fat because the fat will produce deuterium, depleted metabolic water. And I guess worldwide it is typical that people says don't eat fat because it's very harmful and not healthy and you should take the carbohydrate. 60% of the calorie intake should cover with carbohydrate. But it means our D level is higher than my grandfather had because he was eating the fat because it was normal. That the bacon is what part of the normal food. And this is a big game in our life, what we eat, how we move and all these things can modify in the deuterium level of the body of the cells. And depending on what type of eat we eat that we modify the deuterium level. But the mitochondria and the cell membrane can generate because the cell membrane can increase up the DH level, the mitochondria is going to push down the D level. And this is again whether the cell can reach the DH ratio and multiply the or the cells are not able to reach the DH ratio.

So I'm just, I'm just going to summarize there just for audience. So what you're saying, Gabor, is that the dietary factors, whether it's carbohydrates or fat consumption, are going to have a major impact on the cell's ability to deplete deuterium. So carbohydrates having a higher deuterium load could potentially result in the cells having more deuterium and fat having a Lower load will reduce the deuterium level. And do you want to talk a little bit about the difference between, I guess, the TCA cycle and the pentose phosphate? Is there a difference whether metabolism happens, one pathway versus the other?

We never investigate these two. I would say that all the biochemical processes depend and modify each other. And at the end of this or at the beginning of this chain of this process should be the deuterium hydrogen ratio. We never. We have run study, yeah, we have run study when we label the glucose first to carbon with carbon 13 and that glucose was given to the cells. And then we separated the, the molecules and we did this experiment together with Laszlo Bolos, professor from the UCLA. And following the carbon 13 in the different molecules, we could map what's going with the carbohydrate with the glucose. And that way we could find big differences in normal water and deuterium depleted water. We took part in on a conference at the Harvard University several years ago when we presented our results. So what we can say for sure that the deuterium level can modify all the biochemical processes which is running in our body and running in our cells. And this is a key issue finally.

So I think one thing we haven't, I guess, clearly covered is what does deuterium actually do to the mitochondria? Is there any damage by deuterium to the mitochondrial nanomotors? I have seen some speak of this. Is there a clear mechanism of how this happens?

I would say from the other side, we have run a study with athletes at the university in Hungary. One of the group of athletes were consuming 105ppm, so reduced from 150 to 105ppm for 44 days. The others consumed normal water. And there was a loading test at the beginning of this study and at the end of this study and there was a huge difference between the two groups. The key issue was that those who were consuming deuterium depleted water. The lactic acid appeared later during the loading test, which suggests that the mitochondria were able to work more properly. So the oxygenation of the glucose was much better. So suggesting that the lower D level can help the mitochondria and the ATPase to rework and then synthesize the ATP and they have enough oxygen to oxygenize the carbohydrate. And this is what we have proven and we published it, that the lower D level could help the athletes during the loading test. And the. Yeah, and the glucose level didn't change during the first five minutes during the Loading test in the DDW consuming group. But it reduced the glucose in the other group again suggesting that the oxygenation and the mitochondria could use up the glucose more properly and Rio could oxygenize it. What we can suppose and Boris Laszlo professor says that so if there is something which is spinning 9,000 times per minute and you put the mass number one or mass number two, that can damage that mitochondria and the ATP is. And that should be the reason that we could prove that for the athletes was very useful to consume deuterium depleties water.

Absolutely. And the normal deuterium level of water is how many ppm, Dr. Gibbon?

I say 155ppm. In the ocean. In the ocean and depending on where you are that can be different. In Europe we have about 145ppm. And if you go to North Pole or South Pole it's even lower. But let's say not the ppm the millimole. The deuterium level in our body is 1240 millimole which means six times higher than the calcium level in the blood and 10 times higher than the magnesium level in the blood because the calcium is 2 millimolar the magnesium 1 millimolar. So the deuterium is a pretty relevant concentration. And I guess the reason that since the 30s when Uray discovered the deuterium and they found that 6600 to 1 the ratio between the hydrogen and deuterium and everybody thought okay, let's ignore it because 6,000 to 6,600 to 1 is not a big number. But checking the 12 millimole is extremely high concentration in a living organism. So I guess we couldn't ignore and all these results what we have published prove that the deuterium is essential and it's very important. It has very important role.

Yes, and I guess it's what I guess if I can summarize what you're saying is just having too much of it could potentially be not a good thing. But it does have a function in.

Yeah, I think on a long term, on a lifetime it's important what is the D level in the body, Whether it's close to 150ppm or we are living our life, you will be 150, 45 or 150ppm. That can modify I guess and that can influence maybe our whole life whether we had a cancer or we had a lot lower chance to get cancer.

So let's segue onto cancer now for a lay person that's I guess having no understanding of cancer formation. Now, how is cancer related to mitochondria? And how does deuterium influence this situation?

So it takes about four or five years that from one single cell we can diagnose the tumor. And at that time the tumor size is, let's say half centimeter or one centimeter in diameter. So people. So it's not true that yesterday I was healthy and today I've got a cancer. It started very long ago when it's another big mistake when there is an operation and everybody happy that the tumor was removed. And the doctor says, okay, forget it, we removed all the tumor and they were healthy. But during the four or five years period, Tumor cells can leave the primary tumor. And if these cells can survive, then the metastasis will appear. So we never can say that the tumor was recognized in time. We can find the tumor in an early stage or a late stage, but never in time. Because this is the nature of the tumor and the cancer development relating the. So I say this is so we can modify the probability to have a cancer or not to have a cancer during our lifetime. And one reason should be the key reason would be of course there is a two main concept the origin of the cancer. One concept is to find the mutation in the genome and then finding the genes having key role in the tumor development. The other says that the metabolism responsible for the cancer growth. And I say at the end again, that will be one story because sure, we can prove it that given mutation can increase the risk of cancer. But this is a ham and eggs story, which was first whether there was a mutation and this is the reason that the metal was a little bit getting different or there is a change in the metabolism and that caused mutation could be true both of them. So there was paper published that the higher D level can cause mutation. So when the DNA is doubling, the deuterium can maybe increase slightly the mutation rate. And that way can influence and can increase the risk to have mutation in a given region which is responsible for the cell multiplication. So what we can do during our lifetime to reduce and to reduce the risk to have cancer. We say that a lower deuterium level should be responsible. And that way we would be able to reduce the risk of cancer for healthy people. We recommend it would be good to consume deuterium depleted water for three, four months every year, every second year. Because in that case we should reduce a little bit Drastically, let's say 220ppm. The the D level and the tumor cells cannot tolerate that type of changes. So due to the damaged mitochondria. And then due to the other process in the cancer cell which require to multiply, multiply and they require the deuterium. But when we from outside reduce the D level because people consuming deuterium depleted water we are diluting washing out the normal water from the patient and is getting lower the D level and all the cell has to handle the changing deuterium concentration. But this is what the cancer cells cannot do. Or they need longer time to manage that type of changes. So those germs of cancer cells can be eliminated by giving deuterium depleted water for people. We have a data that in our database There are 171 cancer patients. They were diagnosed with cancer, they were operated and they were tumor free. When they started to consume Dutene depleted water to get back and to relapse. But our data shows that we lost 11 patients out of 171 during the over 800 cumulative follow up time which is extremely low. And Most of these 11 patients who has died, seven of them consumed deuterium depleted water, had a break, consumed again for a couple of months and later, two, three, five years later, I heard that they have died. Which means those who came back and repeat a cure every year, every second year. We can really prevent the relapse of the cancer. And that would be a good argument that. Our body reducing temporary that will change. So that will cause so big changes that the cancer cells cannot tolerate. And that way we can reduce the risk of cancer to appear or to reduce the relapse of the cancer. Wow.

I'm actually stunned that I've never heard this type of information broadcasted. I mean Dr. Gabor, if you've been doing this research for 30 years, I'm staggered to why this information is not more widely talked about.

Do you know, this is very difficult. So just think about. I am just going to the Bay Europe meeting where the pharma industries is giving together. And I took part several bio meeting on Chicago, Amsterdam, Frankfurt. And I keep saying but think about the farming industry is going to find the molecules. They are seeking to find the genes responsible for cancer. So they are thinking on a different level. They are spending billions of dollars and the world spending billions of dollars to cure people. And the death rate is increasing. And then I came from Hungary. Okay guys, we should drink water. So it's very difficult. And I understand those guys who are very skeptical about that why the water would be good to cure cancer. But the time has come. I would say that 30 years, all the publications we have published and there are several independent publications. So from Shanghai to ucla, people doing research with duty in depleted water. And one day we can get the threshold and hopefully it will be obvious that we should go to sub molecular level, as san Jordi said 40 years ago.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I mean just in Australia alone I think if I totally butchered this, but I think it's something like one in two people, the rate of cancer at the moment. I really hope that this message actually gets to those people on the promise that this information holds to not only cure but also as a preventative measure for people to live good lives without being cancer free. So I really hope this message gets out there. And so. Did you want to say something, Dr. Gabor?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I guess the society cannot afford, afford the dose price which is present now in the, in the cancer drug business. And the efficacy is pretty low and the prices goes up and even that the people are dying. And it's very important for the society to, to keep the people in a healthy position, reduce the cost and the people should work, they should raise the children and all the things. And this is for science. So the science duty to find the reason and figure out what's going on in the cancer field. And this is what we are doing now.

Absolutely. I think this information is very pertinent. If I could speak to the situation in Australia. We've recently run some testing on water samples. Water samples coming from taps, drinking faucets, water samples coming from Australian bottled water. And they're all above 150ppm. Geographically, Australia is almost like a Korean, the canary in the coal mine in, you know, having a whole region geographically having a high level of deuterium. And we're seeing a whole raft of health issues in this country. So perhaps, hopefully this information gets out there that people might consider alternatives in terms of water, something that's potentially lower in deuterium.

Yeah. So the other last issue was so that we have to do cancer drug based upon deuterium depletion. So in the long term we need to register it differently concentration as a drug because this is the only reason that all the people can get it. And of course we have to educate the oncologist how to integrate deuterium depletion into the conventional therapy. Because I don't say now we have to forget all the drugs and all the techniques to cure people. We have to integrate deuterium depletion to the existing therapy. And that way we can get a tenfold increase in survival and all these things and this is what we are working on. So our companies is getting to get and to register idutum depleted water as a drug.

Absolutely. And what PPM does it have to be at to be effective as a drug?

Typically we say that 105ppm is low enough to start therapy with that type of water. And after a couple of months we recommend to reduce to 85 ppm the 65, 45 depending on the stage of cancer, type of cancer and following what is. Conventional therapy. And this is. So that will be level when it's necessary. Wow.

I'm absolutely shocked, stunned. I'm going to be paying very, very close attention to deuterium in water for my family. I have three beautiful little boys and the last thing I want is for them to develop any form of cancer. And as a responsible parent, I'm going to be paying very, very close attention to deuterium levels in the water that my family are consuming. And James, is there any. We're actually coming up pretty close to time, Dr. Gabor. James, do you have any questions? Yeah, sure.

So I just wonder if people don't have direct access to deuterium depleted water, what are some of the options for them? So we have, we have two type of products in Hungary. One is a registered drug for veterinary use. So those authority which was responsible to decide whether it's good to cure cancer for animal field, they have recognized it and authorized it 20 years ago. For human and people can buy it. And this is how we could generate some revenue during the last 25 years to support our research and, and collecting more data and to figure out what's going on. So there are drinking water on the market and there is a drug which is registered for veterinary use and we have a facility which is able to produce deuterium depleted water in a pharma company. So we are able to produce but in depleted water for clinical trials. And this is what we are going to do to go to ethical approval to finalize the protocol and to start new clinical trials to approve very, extremely effective way to cure cancer or treat cancer patients.

Wow. I applaud you, Dr. Gabor, for the work that you're doing to alleviate or potentially even cure this huge, huge problem that we have in the world. So I really do hope and I wish you the best of success to achieve your mission which is to, I guess, cure cancer.

Thank you for calling me.

It's an absolute honor to talk to you and to get this information straight from the horse's mouth. What you guys are doing and how promising this research is, even though a lot of it's many, many, many decades in the making. So, huge applause as we wrap up. I just wanted to highlight to my audience who are pretty much in that gut health space, interested in gut health. This information is very pertinent to gut health as well, because, you know, there's mitochondria in those gut cells. So if the mitochondria are not functioning properly, the gut lining is not functioning properly. And these gut cells. Correct me if I'm wrong, Gabor, but these gut cells are replenishing themselves something like every 24 to 48 hours. So it's a very fast replenishing cell. So, again, it's very important that these mitochondria are functioning properly and deuterium, a very, very important factor in the function of gut cells.

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

And so the final question I have for you before we close this beautiful discussion, Gabor, if there's one thing that someone could do to improve their gut health, what would it be?

They should consume dirty and dip it with water? I would say.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. And I'm taking very close heed to this message. And again, Dr. Gabor Somlay, thank you so much for coming onto the Gut Health Gurus Podcast.

Thank. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Bye. Foreign.

Hey, guys.

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