Dr Ken Mcgrath on The Microbiome and Sports Performance

This episode is brought to you by Nourish Me Organics, your Gut health superstore. Now, Nourish Me Organics are the market leader when it comes to probiotics, prebiotics and anything related to gut health, including home fermentation kits. So do head to www.nourishmeorganics.com and use the code Happy Gut for 10% off.

Hey, guys. Crippen governor from the Gut Health Gurus podcast. I've got a background in food science and nutrition, and today we are having a very, very different format. I've actually got Dr. Ken McGrath here from Microba, who's a microbiome expert with particular interest in the microbiome and also the sports science field. So I'm really blessed to actually have Ken here at my house.

Hi, how are you?

Ken, thank you for coming down all the way from Brisbane and to spend time with me here in East Bentley. Melbourne.

Not a problem.

And you had a bit of problems with the traffic this morning?

Oh, it's just a bit heavy here in Melbourne. You know, Brisbane's a bit different, I think, but all good.

Absolutely. And the first thing I like to do at the start of my shows is to get it from the horse's mouth. Now, who is Ken McGrath?

Oh, that's a good one. I guess the easiest way to explain it is I'm a bit of a science nerd. My background's in molecular biology and DNA science, so particularly how we can use technology to understand the microbiome. My PhD is in molecular pathology. My research postdoctoral was in microbial communities, in agriculture and in health. And through that, I was managing a DNA sequencing Lab for around 10 years, so essentially running DNA analysis services for Australian researchers to help them understand their research questions. But last year I joined Microba to apply that knowledge and that understanding to the human gut microbiome. So in my role now, I'm helping people understand the technology that we use at Microba and how it can be applied to really understand what's going on inside your gut.

Right. And I can't help myself but be fascinated by your background in agriculture and exploring that a little bit further. We are going to talk a lot about the sports link to the microbiome, but how about we start off with a discussion about the. The soil microbiome?

Certainly. Okay. So my background is actually from farming, so I grew up on a farm near Dalby in Queensland. So my dad's still out there at the moment, my brother as well, growing grain and have cattle as well. So that's Why? I was sort of interested in the microbiome and soil microbiota.

Right. So what can you tell us about the significance of the soil micro microbiome? So why is it, what is it? And potentially what impact does it have on human health?

So, firstly, there's so much we don't know and still a lot of research that needs to be done in that space. I haven't been in that area for quite a while, too, so I'm not that up to date with it. But at least I do know that the soil microbiome interacts with the plant structure quite heavily. And there's a lot of communication happening between the bacteria that live in the soil and the plant, and that's doing a whole range of things, including helping growth, even things like providing fertilizer to the plant, like things like the rhizosphere. So certain legumes that harness certain microbes create little structures for them to live in, little houses, and the bacteria give them nitrogen and fertiliser in response to food back. So the symbiosis occurs in legumes in particular. Beyond that, certain soil microbes prime a plant for their immune defense, so actually can protect them against fungal diseases if the right microbes are present. It really is this complex community that's changing how plants grow, for better or worse.

That's really fascinating. And one aspect of the plant microbiome that fascinates me is mycorrhizal fungi. So what can you tell us about mycorrhizal fungi?

Look again, it's sort of outside my field expertise, so I wouldn't be able to give much on that space.

Right, fair enough. And just for the audience, mycorrhizal fungi are almost remnants of very ancient rainforests. Studies have suggested that mycorrhizal fungi most extend the root structures of plants so they can access water much further from the actual plant. But if you want to listen to a podcast about mycorrhizal fungi, go back to an episode I did with Jack Lees about the soil microbiome and particularly mycorrhizal fungi. But thank you for giving us that primer on the soil microbiome. Because our food comes from the soil, right? So most of it, whether it's animals or whether. Whether it's plant foods or the soil, has an integral part of our microbiome. So I really appreciate it. One thing I really love to do is gardening. How's your gardening skills?

Very good, actually. So I've got a veggie patch at home and grow some Tomatoes and beetroot and even grown some cabbages and made my own sauerkraut from, you know, from paddock to plate. But it was backyard to jar for me. It was fantastic.

Wow.

And I've got a small little veggie patch. I can take you down to have a look. It's totally neglected over winter, so it's a bit of a hole.

Now's the time to get it planted and ready again for a new season.

Exactly. I will get to it when I find some time. But what I do like to do is nibble on just some veggies. Like I have some lettuces that literally now they've become wild, so I don't water them. I do put mycorrhizal fungi in my plot, so, so I haven't watered them. They have pretty much self seeded and spread all through my garden. And I literally, for lunch I just go and nibble on lettuce from my garden with the soil, with the bugs, everything, and I'll go and nibble on some oregano or some herbs just to get some diversity in terms of the plant food in my diet.

That's so important too. The diversity of plants means diversity of plant fibers, prebiotics, which leads to diversity in the gut microbiome. It's one of the strongest drivers of the microbiome, is your diet. And so making sure you're having different plant foods in your diet is so critical. A lot of people think, oh, I'm pretty healthy, I eat five serves of veggies every day. But if it's the same five veggies every day, you don't have diversity. You're not getting that in your gut. You need to mix things up. And I've heard people talk about, you know, trying to have 30 or 40 or even 50 different plants a week. Now, that's a challenge, of course, but that's the idea that you need to try and achieve is not just having a diet that's rich in fruit and.

Veg, but diverse plants and spices count in that equation as well, isn't it?

Yeah, that's right. They're spices. So they contain plant fibres. That's right, yeah.

And all the polyphenols as well in plants. Tea. That's a plant food.

Yeah, that's right.

That's matcha. So how many plant foods do you think we need a week?

Look, as I said, people are still, I guess, coming up with numbers to try and achieve. I'm a bit more pragmatic in my approach. I just say more is better. So look at what you're currently doing and try and increase it a bit. That's going to help you in the right direction.

And the diversity as well, right?

Absolutely. Yeah. So that diversity of the different plants is something that you need to just increase. Consider going through a supermarket and finding a plant you've never cooked with before. There'll be some and just grab it and jump online and work out how to incorporate that into your cooking. That's going to help. I think that approach is far simpler than trying to achieve 30 or 40 or 50 as a number. Just try more.

I'm thinking something like a. Imagine a curry powder. A curry powder would probably have, I'd be guessing, maybe five or six different spices in that blend.

Certainly.

So that's a good whack of plant foods and polyphenols.

Absolutely. Yeah. It depends on the curry, though. I guess the curry is all based on maybe a meat curry with other oils and fats in there as well. It might not end up so healthy, but still, the plant fibers are going to be a boost for your gut microbiome.

A nice little veggie curry, maybe.

Yes. Certainly.

The other thing would, just to finish the plant food loop, is if you're picking stuff from the garden, there'd also be all these soil microbes that are on the food itself as well.

Right. And maybe even in the food. So there's evidence to show some microbes can actually colonize the plant structures themselves. So not just on the surface, but inside the plant. So there's also just a lot of evidence to show that exposure to the soil itself through gardening and through digging is good. I think it's more of a mental health thing. Personally, I just think being out in the outdoors and connecting with nature is a good thing for you. But perhaps there's some exposure that you're getting, microbes that are helping out your gut there as well.

Totally. And the sunlight on your skin. Short amounts. Of course, here in Australia, we have to be careful with too much sun exposure, but certainly some good vitamin D production going on. You did mention something about colonization. Now, just before we jumped onto the podcast, we were talking about colonization of microbes, and you mentioned something that really struck in my mind about the whole concept of probiotics and whether things like Lactobacilli actually have the ability to colonize the gut. Now, Ken, you're one of the experts in the world in this field. How about we set the record straight? So what's going on with Lactobacilli again?

I haven't done research in this space. I've read up a lot about it. But also our senior scientist at Microba has a lot of literature she's reviewed, Dr. Eleanor Pribble. And so it's quite clear that Lactobacillus isn't a great colonizer of the human gut. That's really well established and there's a bit of mythology around Lactobacillus. It turns out that it colonizes mice guts really well and really effectively. They've got the right receptors for it to happen. And because so much research on the gut microbiome was originally done in mice, the scientists could see it colonizing and presumed, oh, so people will be the same. Lactobacillus is a colonizer. It's just not true. Microbus sees Lactobacillus on less than 2% of the populate the Australian population's gut. And it's probable that even that 2% is coming from their food and just passing through. So Lactobacillus itself may still be beneficial and it may be able to change the local environment or produce metabolites as it's moving through the gut, but it's not going to stick to your colon and be there afterwards. So the benefits would be transient. They'd be there while you're taking it, but you wouldn't have that living in your gut ongoing.

So if we're having a supplement or eating fermented foods or something rich in probiotics, specifically Lactobacilli, I guess the consumption patterns are important to regularly include these things in meals, versus having a mindset of, I'm going to have a supplement or a fermented food and then it's going to colonize and give me benefits.

Yeah, that's right. You need to be having it regularly for that benefit to be had. Even around the probiotics, too. There's some research saying some probiotics can still have a benefit even if they're autoclaved, which means that you kill the actual living organism. But it's those metabolites that are inside the cells that are able to change that local environment in the gut as they pass through. And that has a benefit. So you don't have to have a live bug to have a good effect.

Absolutely. And that's such a critical point because a lot of people are wanting to consume fermented foods and they think, well, I'm having a kefir or a sauerkraut or something like that. But it's important to have it live. But you can Also use it in the cooking. Because even if you do cook these products, as Ken suggesting, the live bacteria may also have some benefits. Now, one thing, that one question that we often get asked, and we touched upon this before we jumped into the podcast about histamine. Now people are terrified of histamine. So how about we set the record straight? What is histamine? Because fermented foods do contain histamine. What is histamine and how does it impact the body? And in what situations do people need to be worried about histamine? What parts of the population need to be worried?

Histamine is a metabolite and it's incredibly common. It's in foods, it's in the environment, it's produced by bacteria. And so histamine triggers in some people an immune response or a heightened response to other things as well. So it's almost like a primer to a reaction. But of course, hay fever, it's all linked to histamine mast cell activation. With histamines, it's a complex thing because it's so prevalent and there are so many factors involved in how people respond to histamine that it's actually difficult to work out what might be involved in an individual's reaction. Because you've got foods, you've got the environment, you've got their gut microbiome that could be producing a lot of histamine or, or some people producing a tiny amount. Then you've got the human gut itself and the receptors to histamine. Some people have the genetics that mean their guts basically have no receptors and they won't have much of a reaction to the histamine in their intestine. Others have linings that are covered in receptors, and they're really sensitive. They will react to even small amounts of histamine. So if you look at the gut microbiome and how much histamine it has the potential to produce, it's tricky to predict whether or not a high level would be causing a response or not without knowing the human genetic side of things and how many receptors you've got. But even without that, you can tell if the gut might be contributing. So if you've got the symptoms of histamine problems in the gut, and you've also got a microbiome that produces a lot of histamine, it's worthwhile trying to focus on shifting that away from a high histamine producing microbiome to see if that helps with the symptoms.

Is there particular. So I know the microbial test does pick up the Histamine as a metabolite in your report, are there specific types of bacteria in the microbiome that produce more histamine than others?

Certainly there are. And even some of the novel organisms, so these are unnamed species that microbial discovers as we do our research, are histamine producers. And so what microbial is doing when we report on histamine is we find the genes. So these are the pieces of DNA that let a bacteria do a function and in this case produce histamine. So we're counting the number of bacteria that have that gene. And that gives you an indication of do you have a lot of bacteria that produce histamine or only a few that produce histamine and get that level? Even within that, though, you'll have some bacteria that really are the high producers and low producers. And so that together gives you your overall potential for histamine production.

I'm just thinking out loud for someone to work out whether they have an intolerance to histamine, how would they establish that?

So the microbiome is a good starting point, but it's not the only piece of the puzzle. You've got to look at everything. You've got to look at your foods that you're eating. Are they high in histamine? Look at your environment, look at your own reaction to that. Are you someone who is really sensitive to histamines already? And that gives you an indication of your human genetics and whether or not you've got the receptors everywhere or whether or not you're a bit more resistant to that. Looking at all the bits of information together really is needed to come up with an answer.

It's almost a consumer listening to their own body. If you're having a huge whack of histamine in a particular food product, how does your body react to this? And this will give you a clue on whether you can actually tolerate these foods or not. And perhaps, maybe some people might be best avoiding it. And do you know roughly what percentage of the population would have a huge amount of receptors in the gut?

I don't know that.

Maybe we'll save that for another podcast with one of your guys from Microbial.

Need to get a human genomics histamine expert expert for that one?

Yeah, we'll try and find someone on the interwebs, sure. But guys, just to close that loop, listen to your body. If you're having a food high in histamine and you're having a reaction to it, then perhaps it's best to find an alternative to get Your probiotics from now, Ken, you mentioned before the podcast something about the work that microbial is doing in terms of identifying with a high level of certainty whether someone's got some gut conditions like IBD and Crohn's. Now, this is fascinating. This is a huge game changer. I just wanted to give you the opportunity to share with the world, what are you guys doing there? Because this is huge.

Sure. So it's important to understand that Microba isn't just a testing company. We're not just letting you understand a lot more about your gut. We're trying to push forward our understanding. So humanity's understanding of the gut and how it's impacting health and it's one of the most exciting things about microbial, I think. So what we're letting people do is if they want to, they can choose to share their de identified data with microbial research people. And that means that we remove your name, we just get your results and also give you a survey of any health conditions you might have. And we're using machine learning to try and find patterns between the gut microbiome and your health conditions. And it's starting to reveal some really interesting information. One of the big projects we've had is around ibd. So irritable bowel syndrome, in particular Crohn's and colitis, trying to work out, are there any patterns here? Do certain microbes tend to associate with these disease states more frequently? And it's actually quite remarkable. We are seeing that there's a certain group of organisms that that seems to only be seen in people who don't have ibd. So the idea is that maybe they're protecting the bowel against these diseases. We don't know this yet. We're going through the steps of isolating organisms and testing them out to see are they able to suppress inflammation. Going through that scientific rig at the moment, but it's such an exciting space because potentially we may have revealed some of these mechanisms for some really serious diseases that might lead to potentially treatments in the future.

Now, these particular bacteria, I'm guessing they are just being discovered. So we don't really know what these bacteria are in terms of the naming.

Some of them certainly are these novel organisms. So bacteria that don't have names in science, organisms that haven't been able to be detected before because the technology didn't exist to see them. But with Microbis Metagenomics, we capture everything in the sample, all the DNA. And what that's let us do is build together genomes of novel organisms that are unknown to science previously. So again, that's exciting to have the tool and the technology for the discovery of those novel organisms because we get to track them, we get to see are they associating with healthy people or are they associating with, you know, not so healthy people and maybe causing disease. So this is that journey of discovery that microbial is on.

And where do you think these discoveries are heading? What's the your feeling for the potential future, what a potential future might look like? You can just guess.

You can sort of imagine a future where, you know, you've got some kind of monitoring tool built into your bathroom. And so at a flush of a button, you get to have your health state every day and it's just monitoring, are things okay, or are there some patterns emerging which indicate things might be going in the wrong direction? And then you can start to take action to avoid that. I think that would be a fantastic future of healthcare.

Maybe it links to a shopping list or something of food products.

At a flush, it says, look, your butyrate levels are a little bit low, so add some more resistant starch and have some more legumes. Yeah, that kind of thing. I think that'd be amazing.

That's pretty amazing. I'm so excited to see where the future is headed, But I think we'll jump back to the original loop and what the main discussion was. I know you're very tight on time, but tell us about. Main reason for me wanting to have this conversation with you is you spend some time with rugby players. Is it the nrl, isn't it? These guys from.

So the rugby league team actually used microbiome, the kangaroos, the Australian rugby league team, we did a project with them where we tested their gut microbiomes and just looked at what was happening in their gut. Were they mostly healthy or not? And we really wanted to provide some personalized feedback on the things that they might be able to eat to shift their microbiome to a healthier state. Because these are elite performance athletes. They are looking for any gain they can get just to help them better. Because that 1% extra can mean a win or a loss. And so, yeah, we were able to go through that and talk to them about their results and how they can make these changes to try and get that boost in performance.

What would be the key findings of this work? Because it's substantial. Again, where the future is headed in terms of sports performance and sports enhancement by using microbiome drivers. What's some of the findings of this Particular work that you've done.

Yeah. So, I mean, with the team in particular, some general finding there, they're mostly healthy. Not so surprised, of course, but not all. There were some people who had low diversity in their gut and could benefit in increasing the number of different plants they are consuming. There was a high ability to break down proteins generally, which isn't always the best thing, but that might reflect a high protein diet, which sports people typically have. But really the value came down to each individual person getting an idea of what's right for them. So as a group, it's really not the right way to think about it. It's about for each individual, their report that we could give them, that showed them what to consider and how to shift their microbiome towards a healthier direction.

That's amazing because the way I'm imagining a sports club operating, I could be totally wrong, is you'd have some sort of optimization coach or nutritionist or dietitian or someone of that caliber working with the athletes in that particular club. But what you're suggesting is that it perhaps needs to be quite personalized and tailored to the individual's needs.

Yeah. And that's where this is really heading, is to understand an individual's requirements and be able to tailor a diet to them. So you're right. The performance coaches and dietitians working with themes will tailor it for the team somewhat and maybe even to the type of performance required for that sport. But they're not going to that next level of really personalizing things to the person's unique microbiome. And so the kangaroos are one of the first teams to try that approach and see how it goes.

And what's your feeling? Do you think there's going to be some adoption in terms of the methodology that you're proposing?

Look, this is still a research trial really at this stage, and it's been exciting, it was well received by the team. But there's a lot more to discover yet and a lot more to try and work out what's happening in the research space. There are some discoveries around how the microbiome influences things like how much oxygen and lung capacity there is. So VO2 max has a connection with the microbiome and even some more recent research on marathon runners and organisms that seem to be able to give you extra endurance and run further than before, which is really fascinating.

That's absolutely fascinating. So in terms of the research that you are bringing up, is there anything, say, for instance, there's a gym rat or someone that's into their fitness, or there's some Paleo CrossFit type people listening. Is there any takeaways from the research that they can adopt in their lives?

Straight away, look, a lot of general advice on just health. So to be able to perform at an level you need to be healthy. So a lot of that research is actually based on the fundamentals. Things like having a gut microbiome that can produce short chain fatty acids to keep your gut healthy and happy, having a gut microbiome that's not producing inflammatory compounds like lps, lipopolysaccharide or trimethylamine, or a whole range of compounds that can have detrimental effects. So just having good gut health in general is a useful thing and will help the performance of the person. Just being healthy, that's a goal that we all want to achieve. More specifically, there are some bacteria that have been linked to specific sports outcomes, and one of them was, I mentioned earlier, an endurance approach. So just cover that a little bit, if I can. There's research out from the US which showed that they looked at the microbiomes of marathon runners and noticed that most marathon runners had a higher prevalence of a certain organism, something called Valonella. It's a genus. And they went, well, this is strange. Why is it more common in marathon runners than the general population? And so they went, okay, we'll do a research project, we'll isolate the bacterium. So they cultured it up, they put it into mice, and suddenly the mice could run 13% further. Wow. So the mice became marathon runners by having this bacterium, and they even went as far to work out the mechanism. And then basically, the mice, sorry. The bacteria was taking lactic acid, leftover product that makes your muscles burn. It's converting that back into energy for the body. It was basically offsetting the effect of lactic acid in the mice and letting them run further. So it's just exciting, I think, that a single microbe was able to achieve that much of an increase, you know, 13%, when athletes would be happy with a 1% boost in performance. So you can see that research now heading towards, well, can we turn that bacterium into a sports probiotic where you might be able to have a drink or a tablet and get that benefit. That's where this is headed. Although it doesn't exist right now, there's no supplement you can buy off the shelf that would be this, this organism Valinella in a tablet form. But I'm sure it's in development.

Was it Valinella Atypical, wasn't it?

I believe so, yeah.

There's probably lots of guys out there and ladies as well thinking, how do I get. Firstly, we need to get it in there to have it in the gut, but how do we encourage it to grow in the gut? Do we have any insights on that?

Not yet, no. That's again, some of that research that's needed. We do know though, or Microba knows that it is in some Australians already. So we know from our research that we see Valinelle in around 3 or 4% of Australians. So there are some people out there that have the right guts for marathon running, as an example.

That's incredible because say, for instance, you have someone that's potentially considering a career in marathon, they might get the test.

Done and check if it's there and they. Okay, they've got that. I'm sure. It's more than just a single bacteria, of course, and perhaps even there are other organisms that are unnamed. These, you know, these novel bacteria the microbial discovers that are doing the same functions that are converting that lactic acid back into food. So it probably all doesn't come down to a single species. It's always more complex than that. But you can do the microbial test and find out. Yeah, look at your species table and look for Valinella atypica. If that's there, then you've got that extra boost at least to win the marathon.

It's almost like Michael Phelps with the double jointed ankles giving him an edge in his particular sport. Maybe some of these novel bacteria might be giving people a genetic edge.

Yeah, well, this is the thing. There's the discussion around gut doping and would there be in the future testing if people have hacked their guts for performance? I've heard that the ioc, the International Olympic Committee is considering a release on that saying that they will not consider probiotics to be doping, but they will allow probiotics in sport. This is going to be something that is accepted in the sports community as it is currently. I mean, people are on yoghurts and other things as part of diet. So they will actually have an official stance soon on this topic and it will be to allow probiotics to be part of normal training and normal health.

Wow, that is an amazing nugget that you've shared. Because imagine the future, I mean, as we discover more of these novel organisms and potentially some of these organisms giving us small edges in our sports. Atypica, that's a 13% improvement. That's huge. So imagine when some of these things start to get commercialized and being widely used. I think it's just incredible sports performance.

Yeah, that's right.

I'm so excited.

And different blends being available for different sports too. So you'd have your sprinting blend versus your endurance blend, or your powerlifting blend and your rugby versus afl blend. You know, it's exciting to think about.

Where that would head multi billion dollar probiotic would be one that can actually make you lose weight, I think.

And you know, the research may establish and that might be coming, where the microbiome is linked to obesity and weight loss as well. There are examples of FMT where obesity has been transferred with that and it's always more complex than just the fmt. Other things change as well. So it's not causative yet. But there are suggestions there that the microbiome is a driver of weight loss and gain.

One organism that particularly pops up when we talk about things like weight loss or even diabetes is Akkermansia muciniphili. Now, do you want to tell us about the significance of this particular organism? And we'll pretty much close as we finish this loop, but tell us about Akkermansia, what it is, why is it important and how. Because people normally assume that Akkermansia is all good, but we discussed before the podcast, maybe there's some elements of Akermansia that are also negative. So let's talk about the full loop on Akkermansia.

So Akkermansia is considered one of the good guys to have. And I view it, maybe it's my farming background, but I view it as a mucus farmer. So what it's doing, it's actually stimulating mucus production, but also consuming a bit of itself. So it's growing a crop of mucus and having it for dinner. Now, the issue comes when you've got too much Akkermansia and an overgrowth of that. It means that there's basically a big family and not enough food to go around. And what it does, it eats that mucus layer and reduces it down. That exposes the epithelial lining to pathogens, opportunistic pathogens, and that can cause disease states. So having the balance right with a commence here is useful. You'd want to see it sort of in 1 or 2% of your microbiome, and that would be great. But if you're seeing it at 20 or 30%, then it's really too much. And you might be having some issues with your gut lining and gut mucus layer because of that.

So if you're up in the 20% level, what can you do to fix that?

Right. So, I mean, there are a variety of approaches, but essentially you're trying to shift your microbiome away from its current state to a healthier one. The way to do that is through different prebiotic fibers in the food. So different plants. Try and consider a bit of a dietary shift. You can also consider probiotics, or some people even consider antimicrobial compounds. So different plant compounds that inhibit or reduce certain microbes. These are all approaches you can try. But diet certainly is a big driver of the microbiome and is one of the. The main ways that you can shift it.

Sure. And it sounds like it's one of these issues when you do have imbalances in things like certainly Akermansia, if you have too much of that, or if you've got some proto bacteria issues, something like Boffula or D Suffer vibrio or something like that, where you need to work with a trained professional. That's my advice to people, is it's very hard to hack these things yourself. Work with a practitioner that can actually guide you with the right probiotic supplementation, probiotics, certainly dietary interventions as well. And then you can obviously test before and after and see how these things change over time.

Absolutely. And one of the nice things about microbial is we've built a network of healthcare professionals who understand our reports can help you out with your results. So you can get the test done and have your result and then find a practitioner to give more support and that sort of ongoing understanding that you really need to get the most out of the results. So we're really happy to have people across Australia that are able to provide that and looking to expand to other countries in the near future.

That's amazing, guys. Your test methodology is second to none in the world that I've seen and that you're so progressive on the work you're doing, the research, discovery of novel bacteria. We talked about reclassification of certain bacteria that you guys have discovered, which I'm sure you're going to release to the public in due course. But I just want to say congratulations to all the work that you're doing.

Thanks.

I'm so honored to be involved with Microbar. And I thank you so much for coming into the podcast.

Not a worry.

And if people are listening to this podcast and they're really fascinated about reaching out to you guys, how can they find you and you personally?

Yeah, certainly so always through our website, microba.com and all our resources are there or you can reach out to me. My email is ken mcgrathicrober.com cool.

You might get an inundation of your inbox, but that was pretty brave. But let's see how it goes.

Good. All good.

Ken, I just want to say a huge thank you for coming onto the podcast and you have yourself a great day.

We hope you enjoyed this episode of the Gut Health Gurus podcast with Ken McGrath. Wasn't Ken an absolute guru when it comes to the microbiome? And so is Nourish Me Organics. So do head to www.nourishmeorganics.com and check out the Learn section which includes the comprehensive Gut Health Gurus blog and also the Ultimate Guide series. Guys, your support means the world to us. So do leave us a kind review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app and do check out the Gut Health Gurus group so we can continue this journey with you. And also the Gut Health Gurus Facebook page and also Instagram. Guys, until next time.