Dr Maya Shetreat on The Dirt Cure - from Children's Health to Depression

Hey, guys. Cribbin Gavins from the Gut Health Gurus podcast. I've got a background in food science. My colleague next to me who's back, he has got a background in psychology. And we have a fascinating guest for you today. She comes highly recommended by a previous guest, Dr. Vincent Pedre, who spoke very highly. So we reached out to Dr. Maya Sheetreat. Maya, firstly, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me.

My pleasure. And Maya, what we typically like to do is set the scene for our audience and we always ask the question, who is Maya Shetri?

That's a hard question. I'm a pediatric neurologist, which means I treat both children and adults. And I do integrative medicine, which means that I look at things from a whole person standpoint, looking at the root cause, and I use all different kinds of treatments. In addition to being an integrative neurologist, I'm an herbalist. I've trained in herbal medicine and I do a lot of work also. And I have for many years with elders and shamans that I've studied with. So I do a lot of work on sort of the physical, emotional and spiritual level and a lot of work with nature and the earth.

Wonderful. What a polymath, for want of a better word. It's amazing. And I guess what really drew me to get you onto the podcast is that our audience, many of them are mums and they, they, it's, it's a daily struggle, firstly with the, I guess the, the, I guess the conflicts, information that they get from different sources being one issue, and then the daily struggle of shopping and picky eaters and feeding your kids. But I thought I would ask the question, doing my research on you, Maya. I came across fact, correct me if I'm wrong, that there was an incident where your, your son had, was it an asthma attack, which was one of the, I guess the early parts of your journey. So take us through that experience.

Sure. Well, so before I ever went to med school, I was interested in mind body medicine. I thought I wanted to become a psychoneuroimmunologist because I saw Bill Moyer special, he's like an interviewer here and he'd done this amazing special and talked about that. So I thought, this is what I'm going to be, psychoneuroimmunologist, I'm going to go to med school. I wrote my essay about it and they actually let me in to med school for some reason. But then in the process of med school, I sort of got really caught up in all the things that you have to learn in medical school, it's overwhelming. And plus, I had three children over the course of my training, so by the time I was getting ready to graduate, I was thinking, okay, I'm going to practice and what's going to come next? And then my son, my youngest child, who was 12 months old, had this episode of what looked like asthma. And it went on. It was really on his first birthday, and it continued for about 10 months, where he had these intensive episodes every other week of breathing issues and was put on antibiotics and inhalers and steroids, and it was just again and again in this cycle. And at the same time, he also had a developmental plateau. So he had been an early talker, but then he wasn't gaining any new words. And he also was walking, but he would fall sometimes, and when he fell, which he did more often, he wouldn't catch himself with his hands, which is a normal reflex. So he'd hit his face into the ground and hit his head, and he would have these bruises. And it was just weird, really. Very terrifying as a parent. So I took him to different doctors that were my colleagues and also other doctors, some of the top doctors in the world, and allergy and neurology, and everyone kind of, you know, blew me off and kind of, you know, patted me on the head and said, oh, he's just a reactive kid. And really kind of just pushed me aside in this way. I mean, I felt it was like the way a lot of moms are treated, which is. It's kind of a little misogynistic, like, why are you not really listening to me? Why are you not hearing what I know for certain is happening with my child? So I really realized that I had to do the research myself, and I was going to have to come up with the answer. And as I kind of looked into the research, and this was long before people were talking about the gut immune brain connection. There was not that much research on it, but there was some. And. And I was like, this is food. This must be related to food. I took him to a different allergist, not the best in the world, not one of the most famous allergists, just a regular allergist who was like a nice person. And he said, yeah, let's test him. He tested him for a bunch of things, and his whole arm blew up when he was tested for soy. So I thought, first of all, we stopped soy, right? And within a week, he had no more asthma unless he was exposed to soy. But then I Realized soy was in everything, really in everything. And that's particularly in the U.S. but I think it's also in other countries that soy oil and all different soy proteins. And I thought, well, what's so bad about soy? Why is this such a problem? And then I learned that in the US soy is actually almost 100% genetically modified if it's not organic, and that it's treated with Roundup, which is pesticide that in a lot of countries has been banned or really limited, but in the US was not. And I sort of fell down this rabbit hole of history and policy and politics and food science and really just, you know, I'm, as you may be able to tell, a pretty, you know, like, avid researcher. And so I just kind of gathered as much as I could, and I started to recognize what was really going on in our food system on a grand scale and how it could really be affecting not just my son from the point of view of food affecting his gut, affecting his immune system, affecting his nervous system, but that that could be going on with so many kids. So I started to apply some of what I'd used with my son and some of the tests I'd looked at and some of the different nutritional therapies with my patient population. And it was like daily miracles at first, where I really. I felt like that, you know, it wasn't miracles, but it felt like miracles. Kids with all kinds of chronic conditions, autism, adhd, severe adhd, seizures, migraines. I was just seeing all these kids really transform. And so I saw that this was really something that needed to be talked about on a larger scale. And so I wrote a book.

So you wrote a book called the Dirt Cure. And we'll certainly be linking on the show notes to the book if people want to dig deeper. But it's a fascinating concept. So the Dirt Cure, and I say dirt Cure, what does it actually mean to you?

Well, so, you know, I felt like. And I know dirt has a different kind of connotation in other countries, and I think the UK version of my book is actually just healthy food, healthy gut, happy child. They left out the dirt part, but everywhere else, it's. It's the dirt cure. And the reason I use that word is because dirt has sort of a lot of ideas to it, right? It has the idea of the three pillars that I think are foundational for health, and that's for everyone, right? It's being exposed to germs and microbes, eating fresh food from healthy soil, and getting into nature. And with those three elements. I believe that we could really reverse a lot of the illness that people are experiencing and prevent a lot of the illness that both adults and children are experiencing.

Absolutely. And I'm not sure whether you're following Jeff Leach's work, but he's doing some amazing research with the Hasda populations in Africa. And it's the same sort of conclusion. Like, I mean, the environmental factors are huge in shaping the microbiome, so we can change our diets, but we also have to do something about the environments that we're in. And certainly exposing ourselves a lot more to things like dirt and soil and getting into the seawater or river water or whatever it is.

Right. Well, we think of it as exposing ourselves, but really like that. You know, it's like playing. It's this thing that I think, like, you know, it's not technical, like, beautiful. It's this win, win, which is like eating, like, the most fresh, delicious food, going outside and making mud pies and rolling down hills and hiking and bird watching and making forts and climbing trees. It's like all the things that, like, I loved as a kid, the things that I always wanted to do. That's the thing that kids and adults need to be doing all the time, like, so much of the time. Hours and hours and hours a day. So it's kind of like. It's not clinical. It's like everything but clinical. It just so happens that there's now tremendous robust science to support us spending at least four hours a day outdoors.

Totally. Totally. I'm 100% with you, Maya. I mean, we don't need a doctor to tell us that it's a carrot signing thing and have some fun, because these days we're indoors, we're watching Netflix or on devices. And it's just. I'm with you. Just taking those four hours a day or whatever that you're recommending to actually consciously go outside and play. And it's so fulfilling, whether it's in going down to the park with your children or gardening. So let's talk about gardening, because you're into herbalism and things like that. So what got you interested in gardening? How did that journey start?

Well, so it actually started. I've always loved growing things, and I grew up with a little suburban garden in my house. But when I moved to New York City, I lived in an apartment, and I didn't really have a way to garden until I got my first office. So I rented this office space that had this abandoned lot behind it, and it was part of the office Space, but they didn't think anyone would want it. And when I went out there, it was just really gross, like, just vines, and there was, like, all this sort of petrified dog poop. It was like, awful, awful place. And then I decided, I'm gonna make a garden. I asked them, can I use this? And they were like, yeah, sure. Nobody's using it. And so I worked with someone, actually, who volunteered, and we both just created this permaculture food forest with berry bushes and fruit trees and all different kinds of shrubs. And then we enriched the soil. We got chickens, we got bees. And I had this really beautiful little, you know, Eden behind my office, where I could take even the kids that were coming to see me and show them. They would go out and pick tomatoes, or they'd take an egg home from the chickens. And it was really a very special, beautiful experience. And eventually I ended up moving my office and I moved to a house where I could actually grow a garden where I do grow a lot of medicinals and food, and I have my chicken. So, yeah, it's like. It's amazing because there's so many aspects to it, right? You get the fresh food, you get the herbs, you enjoy the beauty of the flowers, all those different things of what you get from it in that way. But there's also all these other connections, right? So we also know that in soil itself, it's like one of the most biodiverse probiotics you could get, if we would call it that. So in one teaspoon of soil, there are as many organisms as there are people on the planet. And here we are going out and buying a pill with. We're like, oh, this has 5 billion colony. Just go outside and garden for a little while. Get the dirt under your nails. I always see pictures of me on Instagram, I put up or whatever, and I'm like, oh, my fingernails are dirty. But it's like, because I'm outside with my chickens, or I'm picking things, or I'm getting the soil ready for planting. And here you are getting all these great different organisms that you're getting in your skin or you're breathing, or you're getting in your mouth a little bit. And the fascinating thing is that there's all this research now on soil organisms, various soil organisms. Mycobacterium vacci is one of them that's been looked at in all different kinds of ways. But it's been shown to reduce anxiety. It's been shown to boost cognitive function. So, like, when mice are given Them, they're smarter and they complete mazes faster but with less anxiety. It's like called a superhero effect, you know, and this superhero effect you can get, you just have to keep re exposing yourself. But that's easy if you just garden.

Wow.

And so that strain, I've never actually come across it. So Mycobacterium bacchae.

It's B, A, C, C, A, E. Okay.

So I'll definitely link in the show notes to some research with that, with that probiotic, because that's fascinating because for listeners, they'll be well aware of, I guess, my struggle with anxiety and depression, the start of my journey. So anytime I hear anxiety or depress, my ears break up because that is a huge area of interest for both James and I. James, having the psychology background, I thought that's a wonderful segue to talk about anxiety and depression because, James, I'll hand this over to you on the strategies.

Yeah, sure. I'd just be fascinated to hear what your ideas are on how we treat that and particularly in an integrative approach. But what are your thoughts?

Gosh, there's so, you know, there's so many ways, I mean, if I would start just. So first of all, and I don't take it lightly, right. I'm going to talk about a bunch of different things because I don't think there's any pat answer to what helps anxiety and depression. It's different for different people. And sometimes it takes a lot of different elements folding into your life to really get resilient. Even if there's something that helps really to feel like you can take those hits or those stressors and it doesn't kind of knock you back again. So I would say, like, and I'm going to not make this the whole rest of our time because I easily could do that. But certainly biodiverse organisms is important. So there's a tremendous amount of research now on gut brain connection where it comes to mood. So much so that there are probiotics that are called psychobiotics because the probiotics influence anxiety and depression so powerfully. And in fact, that's a lot of what pharmaceutical companies right now are focusing on in their research and development is around how can we use organisms to really transform people's moods. So that's number one. And the big thing I would say is like taking probiotics and like, Lactobacillus is definitely one of the important ones. And Bifidobacter is a big one for anxiety. So that's, I think, a beginning. But Again, getting outside, getting in soil, all of that stuff. You're going to be getting biodiverse things. Pets also are a great way to have biodiverse organisms. So that would be number one. Number two, I would say is actually getting out into nature. And there's an amazing amount of research because of something called forest bathing that is practiced regularly as part of the culture in Japan. It's been studied now in a very objective way and mood is definitely significantly enhanced by immersing yourself in the beauty of the forest. And there are many reasons, I believe, for that. I don't think it's just the bacteria and I don't, you know, I think it's like that really deep connection and you know, all the different, which I'll mention, there's all this kind of change in your electromagnetic field, which we all have an electromagnetic field that's emitted from our heart and the rest of our body as well, that connects or combines with other electromagnetic fields and electromagnetic field of the earth, of trees, of rocks. All of those things are very grounding and stabilizing and actually uplifting for us. And that's something measurable. So there are a lot of benefits to being out in nature as well. And then there are tremendous number of botanicals that can be really, really helpful. Anxiety is almost really easier in a way because there's so many calming nervines available that are easy to access. I like Passion Flower a lot and it's been studied comparing it to benzodiazepines and actually it's considered as effective, but it has a longer initiation time so it's not going to kick in as quickly. But you also have less cognitive impairment and it's not addictive. So Passion Flower is wonderful. Skullcap is another wonderful herb and what I really like especially for children. But I feel like moms and dads always take it and say, oh, I tried it and it's great. I couldn't believe it is wild milky oats. So oats, wild oats for one week of every year emit this milky substance. And during that period of time, if you tincture them, which is to make it into kind of a liquid using alcohol, it actually has very relaxing properties, but non sedating. So it's safe even in 3 year olds and 4 year olds. You can use it and there's going to be no sedation whatsoever, but it just kind of like mellows you out a little bit. So there's all these really beautiful botanicals that offer a lot of benefit in terms of relaxation for anxiety. And then on the other side of it, with depression, it's a little more involved. But I would say a top herb that I like just for kind of uplifting is lemon balm. It's been used quite a bit as, I mean, it's very fragrant and aromatic, so it's nice as a tea. You have to drink a lot of it if you want this property. But it's called the gladdening herb. It's actually uplifting and it really helps uplift mood.

Wow. Yeah.

Incredible.

That's amazing. And I've never heard of any of those particular herbs. I'm so glad to be, I guess, enlightened and educated by you, Maya. Now, I'll ask a slightly controversial question. So you ready for it? Sure. What's your thoughts on psilocybin mushrooms? Because there's a lot of, I guess, research, especially in us, happening right now, particularly for depression, anxiety, post traumatic stress. What's your take on that?

I mean, I think that the research is really compelling. I think there's going to be a huge future in using plant medicine in various ways to kind of do. To reset people. But really, when I say reset, what I mean is actually to connect deeply to themselves and kind of to this ancient wisdom that comes with the plant. So when you work with plants, you're not just working with. From my point of view. Okay. And, you know, I've studied with elders and shamans, but, you know, from my point of view, there is a plant consciousness, and it's something actually I teach about and talk about quite a bit in my own courses that I teach online. And these. So these different plants come with their own wisdom. And part of the wisdom of these plants, these powerful plants, or mushrooms in the case of psilocybin, is really about connecting to yourself and remembering yourself and kind of letting go of a lot of the. Kind of what's been projected onto you by society. So it's about going back to your essence. And I think that a lot of anxiety and depression and PTSD and a lot of things. I mean, obviously we could go really deep with this, but I think a lot of what happens there is this loss of yourself, this sense of not being able to remember who you are, find yourself and feel grounded in yourself and centered. And so in this process of working with these powerful plants, they act as guides, really Totally.

And I guess it's not a. It's not for the audience members to go out and look for psilocybin or any other things that we mentioned. There's safety factors. So do use common sense when you're exploring these ideas. What's your thoughts on things like ayahuasca and some, you know, there's the toad venoms and all these type of.

You know, again, I mean, I think it all comes under this same umbrella of these are ancient medicines, but they are powerful medicine. So I do think that if it's something that a person is considering, look at the research, I mean, make sure that I've had some college age kids who looked on the dark web and please don't do that because it's important to do this in kind of the light of day, so to speak. In other words, you want to be guided by people who know what they're doing with this and you want to be able to, if you're working with these substances, you want to be able to do it in like a good way and a reputable way with people who are, you know, growing it in the right way. And that even goes for things like cannabis, which is something that is being used medicinally quite a bit for anxiety and many, many other things here. So there are, these are very powerful teacher plants and I work a lot and lecture a lot on teacher plants and I believe that they have a lot to offer us. But you really have to be and come to them in a good way. So you have to, you have, it's a real, it's about relationship and a lot of the work I do is about teaching how to, how to come in good relationship with any of these plants before you work with them and so that you can get the most out of the experience. So I do, I think that there's going to be a place for each of these therapies. But I don't think that it's the be all, end all. You know, I think the idea is that really through these plants, which are very strong plants, it's really to teach us that we have to start listening to ourselves, listening to the earth, connecting and building relationships with all the different elements of the earth, right? Like not just saying, oh, we need to, you know, use this herb because it's good for me and it's going to give me this and it's going to give me that. But to say, what do I have to offer this plant and what does this plant have to offer me? Right? This is a, like any relationship, you have to come with your gratitude, you have to come with your offering at the same time. And being in that state of gratitude kind of not coincidentally is, you know, we've Seen now, there's a tremendous amount of science from the HeartMath Institute that shows that when we're in a state of appreciation and gratitude, our heart rate variability, tracings change to be what we call coherent. Right. Coherence in this very beautiful tracing that actually is associated with reduced PTSD symptoms, less anxiety and depression, better cognition, less heart disease, lower risk of mortality. So being in a state of gratitude and appreciation is incredible for your own health, but it's also about offering to other people, to other. You know, to plants, to the earth, to animals, to kind of everything around us. You're. It's giving. It's giving an offering.

Absolutely.

Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I think when you feel good and you're grateful, that's when you can really help others. I was really interested as well. I wonder what your thoughts are on healing and in terms of, I guess, healing the spirit, healing the soul, healing the heart. What are your thoughts on that?

Well, I think that it's been really ignored in Western medicine as a whole. Like indigenous medicine. You know, physical illness is like a late thing, right. It's like way downstream. And really everything starts with. So you have your physical body, your emotional body and your spiritual body. And so things start with your spiritual body and your emotional body, and only then eventually, if you don't deal with it, does it manifest in your physical body. So that's the big kind of. That's my approach.

And so we spoke about. I guess we spoke.

Sorry. Okay, go ahead.

So we spoke about, I guess, some strategies from, I guess, the herbal aspects. Then we start to move into half math.

All this talking. Okay, half math.

And then how about we jump into, I guess, things like. Like a flotation tank or sensory deprivation. What's your thoughts on that?

I haven't worked that much with sensory deprivation, but I do do a lot of work with, like. With meditation. And I think that. I mean, obviously it's not the same, but it really is about going to this place of stillness. I think sensory deprivation is kind of an extreme way of doing that. And I know that there are a lot of people who benefit from that a lot, but I think there are a lot of ways to kind of go to this place of inner stillness and kind of receptivity. And when you do that, because we're in this world, that's so stimulating all the time. And I think, you know, cell phones are this, like, blessing and curse at the same time because they offer us so many benefits of connection or sort of connection. But at the Same time. It's like they're constant stimulation from the minute you open your eyes to the minute you close them. And I think being able to just be in a place of inner silence is absolutely critical for every single person. Children and babies all the way through, adults and the elderly. And so we need to start to build that in. It's like food, drink, going to the bathroom, sex, silence. Right? These are, like. These are our needs. Our needs, you know, and so I think things like sensory deprivation, you know, really, they have a place. And I hope that we create just more silence and opportunities for silence in the world so that we can really experience that sense of inner peace.

Cover the breath. Yeah.

Yeah. I'd be really interested in your ideas on breathing meditations and practices that you use.

Yeah, I love. Like, there are pranayama exercises that I really love, for example, and I actually have for people who want it. I have a free recording on my website if they want to go download it. Because I love it so much. I just wanted everyone to have it. But I love some of the ones I actually would use with my patients, ones that stimulate the vagus nerve. And I use that because in neurology, right, we have, like, you know, people who have seizures, people have anxiety, people have migraines, even adhd, all these different kinds of conditions. Stimulating your vagus nerve is a way of just totally calming yourself, getting into balance. And I actually, you know, use it all the time, where it's just really breathing in through your nose for four counts, holding it for seven, and releasing it kind of with a whoosh through your mouth for eight counts, and then repeating that four times.

What does the whoosh sound like?

Well, it's important to note that your tongue should be gently behind your. Kind of behind your upper teeth, at the junction between your teeth and your palate. So I leave my tongue gently, not tense, but gently in that spot because it closes an energetic circuit. And then when it whooshes out, I'll do one round of it, so in. And then you repeat that four times, and you can do it literally anywhere. I've done it when I've given a talk to 500 people, and I'm sitting in the audience, and I'm, like, nervous, and I just sit and do that. I've done it in difficult, emotionally difficult moments just to help ground myself. And if you do it regularly, you know, once or twice a day, then anytime you use it, anytime you start doing that breathing, your whole body is gonna kind of like you're a Pavlovian. Dog. Right. Like your body knows. Oh, we're doing the vagus nerve stimulating relaxing thing right now and your body just kind of, you know, calms down.

Thank you so much. Mo. We've got the live or the podcast demonstration of your vagus nerve stimulating techniques. I'll definitely link to your website with the link to that actual practice as well. So I really appreciate you sharing that. I think it's a good point now to come back full circle to I guess, the struggles that mums have every day when it comes to children, when it comes to diets, lifestyle practices. What are your takes on the modern mum and feeding a family, reading labels, watching diet, what's your tips and tricks in that space?

Yeah, so I have a whole book on it, but I'll definitely throw out a few ideas. I mean, I think for one thing, you know, I think it's very possible to eat a nutrient dense diet. And that's really the big point for me is that I don't really think there are, you know, anything that's nutrient dense is basically a good option, assuming that nobody reacts to it. Right. So if you have a child who's got, who's sick or chronically ill, has some kind of condition, then you're going to want to experiment with foods that might be beneficial and foods that might not be beneficial. And I kind of outline how to do that with an elimination diet in my book. But I think for most kids, like, if you have a pretty robust kid, then you just, you really want to buy the foods that are whole foods, number one. Meaning, you know, you recognize the things that grew out of the ground or you know, that were, that came out of a tree or whatever it is, and you want to kind, you want to know where they came from ideally. Right. So it's not just like, oh, this is meat, you know, it's like, well, was this meat raised in pasture or was it, you know, raised all on grain? Because that completely changes the quality and that can feel overwhelming at first to start to ask those questions. And it can be an awakening for sure. But what I tell people is it's like a temporary, difficult period of kind of a reset that takes you to a much better place. And it becomes easy, it becomes second nature. You start to know what farms you would buy from and what brands you like and then it's just, it's second nature. You know, you're always going to give those priority compared to other things. And so that's, I think one of the big things is just really looking for Nutrient dense foods with a preference for organic. I like to go to farmers markets whenever possible because I know the food is fresher. I know it was picked recently and it's not coming from far away. Plus I'm supporting local farmers and I can ask them questions about how their growing their food or raising their food. And yeah, and I think also knowing that with children, with picky kids, it's, first of all, children, some children need to try a new food up to 30 times and this has been studied before. They develop a taste for it and then they like it. So, right. Like if you think about a kid saying no once and parents saying, all right, forget it, you know, they don't like this, which is common, you know, but that kid needed to try it so many times and then they're gonna like it. Don't give up. Keep offering the food, you know, and don't have, don't always let them have like the breakfast cereal or whatever for dinner if they don't like their food. Like they have to try what's available to them at the table. You're not like a short order cook, you're not running a restaurant making food that hopefully there's one thing there, you know, they like, but making sure that they have to at least take one or two bites of something new and make that kind of a celebration. Engage them in cooking, engage them in meal planning. You know, go look at funny YouTube videos or cookbooks or take them shopping or take them to the farmer's market, especially because grocery stores can be a nightmare with lots of pitfalls.

The system's set up against you before you even get there. So that's a wise idea. That's some amazing tips and tricks right there and I really appreciate you sharing. I think moms will really appreciate their advice because it's a daily struggle, certainly for many moms, including my wife. So it's a struggle.

I think it's also just important not to feel like you have to be popular all the time. I mean, I'm like, you know, I'm kind of like hard ass, you know, and my kids, like, you know, they're older now, they're teenagers, but you know, growing up for them, I mean, I was a busy mom. I worked, I got home and I cooked a fresh dinner every night and I felt like, you know, this is what I can do for them. And if they said I don't, well, I don't want this, you know, I'd say, okay, like this isn't your favorite. Eat what you can. Hopefully Tomorrow will be something that you love, but today it's this. And it doesn't always have to be your favorite. That's okay, I think. I wasn't trying to win the popularity contest with my kids. I was like, this is what you have. And I try to make it really good. And if you don't like it, that's okay. Try your best to eat it. And if you don't eat it, you'll be hungry and you'll have breakfast tomorrow. But. But I think it's really important not to always try to be your kid's best friend when you know you're in the position of doing the mom or.

The dad, you know, 100% with you. Maya. Now, we're pretty much coming up to time, but I've got, I guess, one final closing loop. Because, Maya, you deal with, I guess, with clients and patients who come in to see you, I guess with tricky situations with kids. Now, is there any particular, I guess, case study or story that you'd like to share about, I guess, a victory that you've had with the child?

I mean, you know, I could tell you all kinds of things, but, you know, I would say, I mean, I could tell you about. Basically, you know, I've had kids. Like, I had these twins who came to see me. They had seizures. Both of them were having seizures, and they were like staring spells. We call them absence seizures. And they were both eating, they were really picky, and they'd kind of really be then indulged in being really picky. So each of them ate about four foods. Different, though, not the same four foods. And they came in, they were having these episodes. And we did some lab work. I took a careful history, and we changed their diet because it turned out they were allergic, actually allergic to several different foods. We took them off of some of those foods and it was an ordeal because they were foods that were in a lot of the processed foods that they liked. So it meant this mom had to go from being their best friend, quote, unquote, in this way, to kind of saying, this is the food you have to eat and this is what it's going to be. She had to start cooking in a different way. And, you know, it took some. A little work on her part, but she had, you know, within a few months, she changed how she cooked, she changed how they ate, and they became completely seizure free with no medication at all, just by changing their diet and taking a few basic supplements. Nothing very fancy, maybe. We did fish oil and probiotics and, you know, A few other minimal things. And these two kids were totally seizure free and eventually outgrew their seizures, really, just mainly by changing their diet.

Wow, Maya, we've covered some tremendous ground in this last 40 odd minutes. And geez, there's a lot of takeaways. I'm going to be listening back to this podcast and taking lots of notes. And I'm sure our audience and the mums that are listening are going to be intrigued with this podcast. And just in closing, I always ask my guests, if there's one thing that you can do for your gut health, what would it be?

So you can probably guess what I'm going to say, but it is to get out into nature. Really make it a regular practice every day, hot or cold, outside or raining, just take at least a few minutes. You know, whether it's if you need to watch your Netflix or you're streaming whatever, take it outside and sit on the rock or sit on the ground and just like take in the air, take in the sunshine, be connected, or put it down and just go hug a tree. Literally, I can be found hugging trees. People see me hugging trees. I'm completely fine. I even sometimes post it in my Instagram stories because it's like, it's such an important way to connect. And so any way that you can make sure that you're getting outside every day is the best way from my point of view, that you can improve your gut health and your other health.

Totally. I'm 100% with you, Maya and James, is there any parting words?

No, I think that was fantastic. I think it's a really interesting approach to improving your health and I'm definitely going to get outside today.

Awesome. Well, Maya will definitely be linking to your books and your website in the show notes if people want to find you. Instagram, if you like, we can link that as well. And yeah, huge gratitude to you, Maya, for coming onto the podcast. I know you're a very busy woman, very much in demand, so totally appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

It was my pleasure.

Thank you so much.