Hannah Crum on Kombucha Making 101

Hey, guys. Cribben Govender from the Gut Health Gurus podcast. I've got a background in food science. My colleague next to me, James Shadrach, has got a background in psychology and all things gut and brain. And we have a fascinating guest today. Her name is Hannah Crum. And if you're in that kind of fermentation, gut health kind of space, I'm pretty sure you would have come across Hannah. She is the founder of Kombucha Camp, which is all things kombucha education. And she's got a wonderful book called the Big Book of Kombucha, which is extremely popular for kombucha makers. So, Hannah, firstly, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me, Cribbin. Really appreciate it.

So, Hannah, what we like to do is set the scene for our audience, and we always ask the question, who is Hannah Crumb?

Hannah Crumb. She is the Kombucha Mama. She is mother to zillions of bacteria around the world. I'm on a mission to help change the world one gut at a time. And if I've learned anything from fermentation, it's that I can't do it alone. And why would you want to, really? Right. Diversity is nature. We love diversity. We love how symbiosis, when in those commensal and those mutually beneficial relationships really helps to uplift every being on this planet. And so we really, truly, that is our mission and our vehicle is kombucha. And our message is, you know, microbes are magic. And that means magic is all around us at all times because we're completely covered in microbes inside and out, and they really can help us plug into those deeper energies of Mother Nature.

What a wonderful introduction. And I can't help myself but be intrigued. And in the curiosity getting the best of me, how did you get the name Kombucha Mama? Because that's so cool.

You know, it was a happy opportunity. I was being interviewed by a local magazine. Gosh, I want to say, in 2007, which was when I started blogging about kombucha and they called me Kombucha Mama, and it stuck. And I just. I really resonated with that mother creator. Nurturing energy. And, you know, I have a baby business. I mean, they're all kind of toddlers now. The book's even three years old at this point. But then we also do a lot of nurturing and mothering through our trade association, Kombucha Brewers International. So not only do we help everyone at that homebrewer level who's trying to get reconnected with this ancient practice of fermentation. But we're also helping, you know, people have. Businesses, have opportunities in this world to support their community locally, and we do that through the trade association. So, I mean, you know how it is, Cribbin. You're living your daily life. You're just mountains of things to do on your task list. But when I sit back and reflect on all that we've been able to do, I just am so grateful to have this opportunity to work with such an amazing community of passionate people who really care about health and what a blessing that is to be able to put that kind of energy into the world and to be rewarded for it. And I think that's. There's nothing more humbling than when people say, I started brewing because of you. I started my business because I read, you know, something on your website or, you know, I joined KBI or whatever it is. Like, it's just so exciting that people really resonate with the information we have and that it's helping them to live a better life.

I'm sure, Hannah, when you first started, there wouldn't be a lot of people talking about kombucha and actually knowing what it is to where we are now, where kombucha is very, very trendy. And pretty much most people have come across kombucha. Like, even if you're catching a flight on the plane, I'm sure they would be offering you kombucha these days. But what I'd like to do is explore your origin story. So you're probably one of the very early. I mean, kombucha is a very ancient product, but in contemporary times, you're probably one of the very early ones that started brewing your own kombucha a long time ago.

Well, I first learned about it, sort of. Yeah, exactly. I can see where you're headed there with that question, Cribbin. You know, I started brewing kombucha. I first met kombucha because I feel like it was an introduction to an entity, to a consciousness, to something that isn't just a blob in a jar, although that's kind of the form it take. But I first met kombucha consciousness, if you will, in 2003. And literally the meeting was just. There it is, sitting in a jar, and someone goes, that's kombucha. Never heard of it, didn't try it. Had no idea what it was. And so when I finally came back to Los Angeles, lo and behold, it was on every whole food shelf. And so it was real easy for me to buy a kombucha and taste it. And it was that love at first sip for me. It was like angels are singing and the heavens are opening. And I think that truly has to do with the fact that of course, being the generation I am, I grew up on processed foods. While my gut instincts led me away from things like aspartame and diet sodas. Couldn't stand them, never wanted to drink those, although I really enjoyed full sugar soda all the time as a kid. Growing up, there were just certain ways in which my body protected me from going too far down into processed foods. But certainly that was what I consumed for most of the time. So to have something with nutrients in a living form was really exciting. And, you know, I used to think sauerkraut smelled like old socks. And to be honest, it kind of does. But I've also learned to really love those flavors, to embrace those nutrients. And I mean, honestly, anyone who has that first sip of kombucha, when you get past the like, oh, that's sour and weird sort of initial thought process, it's like, whoa, every nerve ending just came online at once. How many things are there out there that are legal that can have that kind of really resonant experience in just one sip? I mean, kombucha, really, it's powerful stuff.

So just describe it for us. So were you at a friend's house when you first saw it?

Exactly right, yeah. So I was visiting a friend from college. I'm from the Midwest, originally Chicago area. We both live on the west coast now. He lived up in San Francisco, which is a very groovy house of all kinds of great things. So, like, that same day we went out to my first raw food experience and was just sort of learning about these different ways of eating. And of course, California on the west coast really has a lot of this sort of health minded, health conscious type energy. And, you know, so then going into the rabbit hole of kombucha was just totally different. It was easy in la, being such a large metropolis, to then find a scoby locally, which is how I got started. And I was brewing it at. And just, you know, my husband didn't love it. He thought it was terrible. You know, that's sort of everyone's initial reaction when you're encountering something new like this. But the more I brewed it, I ended up developing flavors that he enjoyed. And then I really got inspired. I did this sort of artist way Workshop. It's a. If you're not familiar, it's a book from the 90s here in the US and it sort of walks you through writing morning pages, getting in touch with spirit, getting in touch with self, and doing all these sort of creative exercises. And what it led me to feel inspired to do was to teach other people how to make kombucha. And that's where kombucha camp was born. In my tiny LA guest house, inviting people to my home, showing them how the process works, sending them into the world with their scoby. And there was no concept of, and this will be my career, and this is my business. Right. It was just this hobby, and I loved it, and I just had to share it. And that passion just organically grew. Like, I truly believe that kombucha has been utilizing those of us who resonate with it as a messenger, as an ambassador to help bring this information to a bigger audience. And I truly believe it's timely. Kombucha is becoming really popular right now because we need it. We're in a health crisis. We are being toxified, we're being poisoned. However you want to imagine it might be happening, it probably is. But that's the great thing about kombucha. It helps detoxify the body naturally. And it's made from tea. Tea is one of the oldest healing herbs on this plan, and it is so good for you. And that fermentation process just enhances those nutrients, really helps support that healthy liver, which is there to help you live and, I mean, just makes you feel good. And I think that nutrition in a living form, especially in the Western world, when we've been so overtaken by this processed foods revolution, where we're constantly told these recombinations of soy, wheat and corn are what's good for you, when really they don't provide that nutritional payoff is frustrating. And so to have something that can be quickly integrated into your diet, into your lifestyle, that brings such a physiological experience, because people say, oh, I believe in kombucha. And it's like, I don't believe in kombucha. I know kombucha. I know kombucha works because I feel it in my own body.

Absolutely. And in terms of your background, before you started kombucha camp, what were you doing?

I was in la. I was trying to be an actress, baby. You know, I had done theater. And it's my personality. Right. I have this desire to be out into the world and to share things, I guess. I didn't know what my message was until I found Kombucha. But I had done theater as a child, as a preteen teenager, and I had studied foreign language. In college. I majored in Mandarin Chinese and in Spanish. I have a bachelor's degree in each one. I love languages, I love words, I love communication. And I just. Like I said, I didn't know exactly what my message was until Kombucha came along. And the book is going to be translated into Spanish. We just sold the rights in Korean. So here my dream is now coming into fruition, where my ability to speak all these languages, connect with different people and bring this message of healing is really, you know, so, so fortuitous.

That's so funny that you mentioned your acting background. I haven't actually spoken about it in the podcast, but part of my journey was also I did pretty much a whole year of acting training in the Maisner technique. Yeah, it's literally one of the best things I've ever done in my life. And it culminated to me, firstly, I was hugely scared of people and speaking. It's been a phobia for my whole life. And so I forced myself for a year to prepare myself for a theater production in front of around 300 people. So a year of training. And that's how I pretty much. I'm still terrified of speaking in front of people. And get me wrong, but that's. That was a huge. I guess a huge tick on my bucket list was to actually stand on stage and perform. And I played the joker. So such a dark, so antithesis of who I am. But it's wonderful to have that connection. So I get you in terms of the acting.

Well, it's so fun to express these different characters. Right? Like you're saying this character, that's the antithesis of who you are. And yet we all carry shadow energy. We all carry these numerous parts of ourselves. I mean, I think that's unfortunately, the problem of the reductionism in the west is this dualistic concept. And yes, dualism is there, but really, I go more to the Taoist concept. I think I'm just Taoist. Intuitively. I feel like Kombucha's Taoist just because it's always going with the flow. It's even flowing out of the bottle indiscriminately without your permission. It just has flow going for it. And, you know, there's so much subtlety, there's so much sophistication, there's so much nuance that we start to lose in this world of black and white that truly, you know, we really do embody all of these, you know, the degradation that needs to happen through fermentation and death is just as important and just as vit to our survival on this planet as life.

Right.

I mean, if we think of cancer, cancer is basically cells that won't die.

Yes.

Right. We need death. In fact, we go out in the fall and we admire death. We see the leaves fall and the changing of the colors, and we're like, oh, this is so beautiful, all this death around us. But then when we come to talking about human death, we feel so, you know, afraid or ashamed or embarrassed or, you know, I just feel like, unfortunately, at least in Western culture, we haven't had an opportunity to really deal with it in a healthy way like our ancestors used to. You know, having a wake, having these rituals around how we deal with our grief, I think is so important. And fermentation is just one of these things. I know, what are we talking about death for? But, I mean, fermentation is truly like pre digestion. You know, when you put food into your body, it might be, you know, dead already or it might be alive, but then there's an interaction that occurs with these other organisms, and that becomes fodder for creating enzymatic reactions and providing nutrients and stimulating life. And truly, out of death comes life every time, like the Phoenix from the flames. And I think it's just important that we embrace those concepts because they make us stronger in the end.

Absolutely. And we jump around all over the place in this podcast, and we talk about a whole range of different esoteric type.

Okay, so I'm not off topic.

No. This is the essence of our podcast. We pretty much go down any rabbit hole. Nothing is taboo, and that's what James and I stand by. So let's go back to the moment when you decided to teach people about kombucha. And what was, I guess, your first challenge? Because it's hugely challenging when someone takes home live bacteria and then they're leaving it to sit on the bench for a week or two. So what was that? The first, I guess this was first question or query or concern that came from someone that you taught well.

I mean, I think the question we get a lot, because it's unfamiliar, it's unknown, is, will this kill me? How do I know if there's bad bacteria in there that's gonna, like, it's some sort of invisible zombie? And it's not to say there aren't organisms that we can't See, that have a negative impact our bodies. Certainly they do. But one of the awesome things I've learned through understanding fermentation, reading the scientific literature, is that pathogenic organisms, opportunistic pathogens, are weak. They're weak by their nature. And so what we have going for us with fermentation is sour power. Right? Fermentation. We have sour power, and then we have alcohol and sour power. Of course, these are the acids that are created by the fermentation process with that low ph that literally cuts through the cell walls of these pathogens and kills them if not on contact, but within a few hours. The other benefit we have are these trace amounts of alcohol, you know, again, here in the West. And I don't know how it's treated where you are, but, you know, alcohol is a controlled substance and it's dangerous, and pregnant women have to avoid it and children should never drink it. And that is not at all how human beings evolved on this planet. And unfortunately, I think when we treat it in this really, again, black and white, negative way, we don't allow the health benefits, the medicinal aspect of alcohol to be understood. And then when we pasteurize it and denature it and take away all of its nutrients, we then turn it into a controlled substance.

I have to pause you there for a second because I'm fascinated by that train of thought, and I've never heard actually anybody in my whole life speak about, I guess, the potential medicinal benefits of alcohol. So. So let's delve into it. What's your thoughts on. Is there a limit to where the medicinal benefits get, you know, become more of a danger?

Water will kill you, and yet you have to have water. Air will kill you, but you need to breathe air, right? So everything has the potential for life and death. It's always about balance and how are we using it. So when I'm talking about the medicinal benefit of alcohol, I'm talking about the strategy that yeast devised in order to convince human beings to cultivate it. What a brilliant strategy it came up with. It's like, hey, I'll give you a little relaxation. I'll give you a little fun if you'll take care of me. But in doing that, what yeast also does is the alcohol is antimicrobial, right? So when you go to clean a wound with rubbing alcohol, the alcohol is killing microbes. When you're in a. In a winery and the wine is sitting in the barrel, the microbes, the alcohol in the wine prevents mold from growing in that barrel. And so alcohol has that first ability to help kill off pathogenic organisms. The second is it thins the blood. It creates relaxation. Right? Dis ease. All dis ease is some form of stress. A terrible diet is a form of stress. Stress comes in so many different ways in our life. So when you consume something that can literally shift your nervous system, and you feel, you know, your first sip of beer, your first sip of wine, like you kind of, you drop in to this sense of relaxation. And now when we allow those to be made from elderberries, when we allow them to be made from the flowers and the plants of this planet, and not just from, you know, a sugar and grain source, and again, that's pasteurized. I still think there's a health benefit to biodynamic wines and unfiltered beers, because yeast also contains a nutritional payoff. They contain all the B vitamins in living form. And there were many things that our ancestors couldn't simply boil in water like tea and derive the nutrients from. They would place them into alcohol tinctures, because alcohol is a salt. And so it also draws out the nutrients from whatever you're infusing into it. And then again, when you consume it in the appropriate boundaries, right? And when it's supposed to be consumed and the amount it's supposed to be consumed, that has a really positive benefit on the body. And so, unfortunately, with kombucha, because of this prohibition mentality from the United States, where we literally outlawed all consumption of alcohol in the 20th century, believe it or not, people have this very different concept of it, and they don't understand that there's such a thing as healthy low alcohol. And that's what I consider kombucha and water, kefir and kvass and all of these traditionally fermented drinks that were not intended to intoxicate, that maybe you get a little lift from, usually from the B vitamins in living form, but sometimes people who are very sensitive to alcohol will have an adverse reaction. And that's just a reminder that not everything is for everybody. People can be allergic to any number of things. Strawberries, shrimp, peanuts, all kinds of stuff. And so it's really just about trusting your gut, listening to your body, and trusting the wisdom that your body contains in its DNA.

Wow. Thank you for sharing that train of thought, because that's the first time I heard someone articulate that so wonderfully. So I really appreciate you kind of providing an alternate view to, I guess, alcohol, because it's a hot topic in terms of kombucha brewing. Now, before we Go down the whole kombucha brewing, because I know that's a huge part of what you do in the kombucha Brewing association with the nonprofit that you have. Let's delve a little bit deeper into kind of like the home brewer, some of the issues that someone just starting kombucha might come up against. So what are the typical challenges that you see?

I think the typical challenges are not knowing the rules. Right. Like, there aren't a ton of rules in fermentation, but there are a few. I think the rule that's most important is if you give an organism what it needs in order to thrive, it will. And that rule applies to us too, which is a great thing to remember. So the things that kombucha needs in order to thrive is appropriate temperature. We also need to remember that the symbiosis, while it's beautiful and lovely, we are the stewards of the balance. And so what I mean by that is not just taking the dregs at the bottom and using that as your starter liquid, because then you quickly throw that symbiosis between the yeast and bacteria out of balance. And so, you know, making sure you have proper airflow out of direct sunlight. All of those factors, once you have sort of environmental and nutrient factors dialed in, like, people want to make kombucha without sugar. And I understand people are frustrated by the amount of sugar in their diet, but I always go back to consider the source. Where is this sugar coming from? What is its purpose? The purpose for the sugar and the kombucha is, yes, a little bit remains as the teaspoon of sugar for you to help the medicine go down, but truly, it's to feed those microorganisms. And so when we try to, oh, I want to use a different sugar, I want to use something else. Not that we can't do it, but it's definitely going to impact the flavor. And so remembering why we're making it in the first place, I think all of that helps us to understand a little bit better these sort of controversial ingredients that we're working with.

And why is sunlight an issue in terms of kombucha brewing?

You know, this is a good question, and I would love to see more information about this. Typically, we think of the sun as being antimicrobial, Right. And so it has UV rays. And if we were to place our kombucha right in direct sunlight, the concern is that the UV rays could damage those organisms. Now, what I haven't seen is, is that actually true or not. And so we just take the safety route. Right. So for now, kombucha is brewed just out of direct sunlight. No one's saying we have to hide it in a closet, although some people will do that. It's more like you just don't want it right on the counter or right on the windowsill with the sun streaming in so that it's hitting directly. Although if we were to cover a glass jar with a cover, or if we used an opaque vessel, that certainly would be fine because the UV rays aren't penetrating an opaque material. So that that's. And then we can take advantage of the warmth from the sun.

Absolutely. That's an excellent point. With the UV light and in terms of the, I guess the types of sugar, is one better than the other? Is there something you'd recommend for people to use?

Sucrose. So sucrose is just your common table sugar. It's a molecule that's formed of both fructose and glucose. And it's the process of cleaving that sugar and breaking it into its monosaccharide components that causes kombucha to take a little bit longer to ferment than say, June or jun. It's raw honey, cousin.

Yes.

In raw honey, fructose, glucose and sucrose, all three of those elements exist naturally in the honey. And so it takes less time for us to fermented jun or June because those organisms can immediately utilize those sugar sources. In kombucha, those have to be broken down first through the enzymatic process before they can be accessed. And that's what takes kombucha a little bit longer. But also those healthy acids we're looking for, like why we drink kombucha, can take a little bit longer to form as well. And that also reduces the sugar content. And it's at that stage when we're at like the 15 to 30 day fermentation period where we're seeing a beverage that then has that benefit of helping people who have diabetes or other sugar driven ailments. Prior to that, if we're still on the sweeter side, if we're adding fruit juice and things, it may not have that same sour power we're looking for. But of course the world palate is one that prefers this sweeter flavor. My hope is, and something I personally have observed is that when people start making kombucha at home, they might like it sweeter at first, but your body craves sour, it craves bitter. Those are the flavors of health and Digestion, and those really cleanse the palate so you can actually taste the nutrients from the food you're consuming, as opposed to having this layer of sugar blocking out flavors and nutrients. Buy it at the store. But I really hope at some point, everyone gives it a try at home, because truly making your own kombucha, it's just that experience of the process, experimenting with flavors, getting really into your herbs. It just becomes such a personal experience. And so many people tell me my homebrew tastes better than anything on store shelves. And yet I also advocate people to go out and buy kombucha, because, first of all, we can't make everything. And this is where trading with friends can be really great. You make the sourdough, I'll make the sauerkraut. They're making the kombucha now. Let's swap. But also supporting local purveyors, because fermentation is an industry that I truly believe anybody can enter right now and have an impact on their community while creating a business that sustains their own livelihood. And that's tremendous. Right. There's not a lot of jobs out there where we can say, I feel great spending this much time doing laboring or doing whatever, and knowing that I'm helping other people in a huge grandiose way.

Thanks so much for sharing, Hannah. I was just interested when you were talking about the differences in flavors. How do you change up the flavors? I'm familiar with jun and regular kombucha, but how do you change up up flavors?

So this I'm having right here is Love Potion 99. It's blueberry, lavender, and I use frozen berries, sometimes fresh. When they're in season, I use the petals from the flowers, and I personally prefer to use the pieces of fruit or the elements of the spices, because. Right. As much as our scientific information is vast, there's still so much more we don't know. Right. Like, it's a teeny little tip of the iceberg with this huge mountain of knowledge that we've yet to even fully understand. I mean, today they're starting to call it, like, entourage elements, you know, whereas, like, hello, everything is complex. Everything has Entourage elements to it. I mean, and this is, unfortunately, the pattern of pharma is to find the one active ingredient to remove it from that matrix of other elements. And this is what leads to all these negative side effects. Whereas if we were to go back to herbal medicine and really focus on those traditional preparations, be it from Ayurveda or tcm, you know, so that we truly are working with the ancient knowledge that our ancestors have handed down to us so that we're in harmony with the elements of the earth. I think we would find them to be far more effective with far fewer side effects. The problem is you can't patent them and make billions of dollars off of people, you know, so it's an unfortunate catch 22 there. But so flavors, flavors. So I always go to nature, I go to my yard, I go to the farmer's market, I go to what tastes good, what's going to be fun to play with. And if you have any herbal knowledge, you know, applying that gently to kombucha is really a really great way to come up with some fantastic flavors. And our book, of course has 260 flavor inspirations, including savory options like bacon and mushrooms. And again, when we remember kombucha's easy drinking vinegar, it makes sense how savory profiles can actually fit really well with the product.

I've got a couple of side notes I wanted to explore further. So the first one was you mentioned the sucrose. Is it better to use refined or unrefined something like jaggery Rapidura?

Absolutely, to be honest. Like refined sugars are the best and here's why. Jaggery and rapidura, again, really great sugar sources, but they're very rich in minerals. Minerals. And that causes the kombucha to sour too quickly. And so again, we're balancing between the sour and the sweet. So using the refined sugar, it's less mineral heavy, which means the yeast doesn't get over activated. So you're able to create a smoother flavor profile and you're still getting the nutrients from the yeast. Now you could use jaggery and rapidura. Just know you're probably going to have to shorten that fermentation cycle or learn to tolerate it more. Tangy beverage.

That's absolutely gold. And the other thing is you mentioned Jun. Like I just wanted to get your take on it because some people believe jun, you can turn a normal kombucha scoby into Jun. So what's your thoughts? Is it a separate species altogether or is it something that's just being converted?

I mean, I think again, we need more research to fully figure that out. As some people would say, we don't even know what kombucha is. But I disagree with that. I think there's been enough research in the last 150 years on kombucha to concretely identify it as an acetobacter ferment. In some of the recent DNA studies we're seeing, we're finding the majority of our yeast is Brettanomyces bruxellensis, which is a lower alcohol producing yeast, and also the yeast that makes lambic so famous for their sour flavors. So it's a really great yeast to be in our family. And it's different from the Saccharomyces cervicia, which, which you typically find in beer and bread and things like that. We're also finding that our bacteria is Acetobacter glucon Acetobacter. I'll get his name eventually. Kamadogibacter, which is awesome, right? Like, science is constantly evolving the names of things based on researchers who can more concretely identify stuff. And so Dr. Komagata in Japan, like, really studied a lot of these acetobacters, and so he gets a lot of bacteria in his name now. But if we're still googling, we're probably gonna find it under a cetivector glucon acetivector as well. Now, in terms of John or June. And again, I don't want to burst anyone's legendary bubble. Like, it's fun to have legends. Where do human beings come from? We have a zillion stories that try to explain that concept. And, you know, even the science and the archaeology, we're always finding another clue that hints it even older, even more beyond. Right. Like, so we may never actually know the full story, but I do believe they're cousins. You know, I've done some research in, like, looking up dictionaries and Tibetan language, and I just don't find anything that indicates a fermentation of honey. And so, again, I'm not trying to dispel anyone's ideas about it, but I truly think they are related. But ours are different. Right? Like, we also do jun. We cultivate them exclusively on raw honey. We've tried to give our kombucha cultures raw honey. We've tried to give our jun sugar, and they both go to mold right away. Can you gradually adapt one or the other over time? Probably, because organisms are flexible. I mean, that is the nature of bacteria is to be able to pick up DNA that's left behind by other organisms, incorporate it within itself, and evolve to do something different. So bacteria are pretty ingenious. And, gosh, we sure wouldn't be here without them. And that's why I really think of us as bacteriosapiens, because without bacteria, we wouldn't survive either.

Totally. You got something? Yeah. So I was just interested in you know, you've been involved with kombucha for such a long time now. How do you think it affects your, I guess your emotions, your mood psychology? How has that changed for you as a result of being in touch with kombucha?

Well, I thought it was a hippie before, but now there's no turning back. You know, that's a really great question. Here's what I'll say. There's no panacea, there's nothing that cures everything. I still need herbs and elements, I still need energy healing, I still need to get my chakras in alignment. And while kombucha certainly does have B vitamins that help give me that little energy boost, I'm a human being and I'm complex. And so one thing isn't going to be able to take all that away. But I definitely know in my heart, whether science will prove this or not, that this is our first break right here. Is this our gut, the first brain? Right. Because this one cannot function if this one is out of order. So if we're looking at order of operations, this one needs to be taken care of first. And it makes so much sense when we think about, I mean we're tubes, we're meat tubes, we're plant tubes, we're animals, like we're just tubes. We don't look like bacteria, we're all bacteria shaped, we're rockin shaped. We can't help it. I mean we can't help but express that what our true nature is. And so I got lost here. But yeah, I mean we can't help but be what we are made of. And that I think is so important. And we're complex and we're diverse and that means we need a diverse range of inputs in order to help those things. And it's so vital that we understand this connection because again, Western medicine has tried to attack it from the outside. Oh, there's something wrong in here. Well, let's balance. You know, I always thought there was a pharmacy in my brain just because that's what I thought was happening. And then I learned actually it's all happening in my gut based on the food I'm eating. And it just makes so much sense that anything you absorb through your body is going to have an impact on your body. And that's why we need to be paying attention to the products we're putting on our body, the poisons we're applying to our lawns, the pesticides that we're allowing to run off into the oceans, all of These things have an impact on us. But I'm also the person who truly believes that when we start reversing our trend that the earth is going to heal quickly just like a human body does does. And it's not to say that there's always going to be complete healing. Sometimes an illness is there to teach us a lesson about life and sometimes that lesson ends in our death before we're fully healed. But that doesn't mean the journey wasn't worth exploring. It doesn't mean that there isn't value in that life. Just because they had to be a canary in the coal mine to let people know, hey, there's something really wrong with X, Y or Z drug or X, Y or Z chemical that's being used. And unfortunately that life had to be sacrificed in order to help other people know that it's a real problem.

Yeah, yeah, that was fantastic. Thank you.

But fermented foods, I mean look, bacteria are this force field surrounding your body. They are the force. And so imagine if you're taking antibiotics, you're exposing yourself to toxic chemicals that kill your force, that deplete your life force. Of course you're not going to have the energy, you're going to end up in a lower vibration, your body's not going to be able to protect itself. And this is where not just kombucha but sauerkraut and kimchi and every nido ferment thing that you can imagine, these are things that we can incorporate in our body that power us up, that give us that bacteria power that help to restrengthen our force field. One of the other things that I always do, unfortunately we can't do it here because we're not in the same space. Is safe, healthy, non threatening human touch. Human touch is so incredibly vital. Not just the energy but also the microbes that we share. And you know, here in the United States and maybe in Australia too where you're at, we've created this environment where it's, you know, first of all it's over sexualized. So there it's really hard for men and women to have sort of platonic interactions without some pall of sexuality being cast over it. And then you know, we've even to the point where like adults and children aren't truly allowed to interact in the same way that we used to be able to. And, and it's not because human beings in their very nature aren't able to understand healthy boundaries. But we don't get predator training. And this is really what I mean like predators and pathogens are ways of being, their modes of behavior and their policies that have been implemented on big levels. And this is where, when we have the vinegar of truth, right, breaking these toxic bonds, you think about that's really these acids. What they're doing is they're removing biofilm, they're breaking down these coagulated, these stuck things. And that's where my hope is that we keep telling the truth, we keep sharing the truth, we keep putting this information out into the world and it resonates with enough people because on that deep human level, we understand this is true.

Totally honored.

We know truth.

I'm with you, Hannah. I mean, you being an actor as well, you've been through a lot of the exercises. Human contact, eye contact, eye gazing, all these strategies used in acting deeply affect how you feel and how you operate. And there's definitely some healing aspect to it, whether it's touch or eye contact. So 100% with you on that one. So let's go back to the kombucha making connection of 101. For want of a better word.

Read the book. No, I'm just kidding.

My community are going to be very disappointed if we don't cover some of the pitfalls that they normally face. Now, firstly, let's go back to when you mentioned adding different ingredients to your kombucha brew. So you mentioned adding frozen berries or herbs or medicinals. Would you do that on the first fermentation or on the second fermentation?

So this is again, the beauty of a flexible technology. There's a lot of ways we can apply it. The reason we learn the rules is so then we can break them later. Right? And so the rules are we don't use flavors or anything in primary. And that's because we want to protect the health of our mother culture and allow her to propagate as she should. However, those daughters, like quickly go from daughter to mother in one batch. And because so prolific, I mean, they're literally infinite abundance in action, you can set up a myriad of experimental brews. And if you don't need that one culture to reproduce in order to perpetuate your kombucha, then, you know, if it survives or not, it doesn't really matter. And we can experiment with any number of things in primary. And so in our book, we talk about making ginger kombucha with just ginger in primary, we talk about hibiscus kombucha just using the petals of the hibiscus flower. And there's so many more that People are experimenting with and doing. And that, I think is the true spirit of fermentation is just the creativity. I mean, now we see kraut with all kinds of different vegetables added. And I mean, pal chai originally comes from China, and it literally just means fermented veggies. And so, you know, kimchi didn't even have chili peppers in it until chili peppers were brought to Korea from the New World. And yet that has become emblematic of Korea. Right. In terms of fermented foods. And so I just feel like there's this infinite well of possibility when it comes to experimentation. But it is. It's paying attention to your organisms, making sure you're getting them the nutrients they need. And if you're not being okay with the fact that they won't necessarily replicate and understanding that, okay, this is. I'm doing this experiment, I'm sacrificing this culture potentially because it may not reproduce.

I've got a burning question. I've got to ask you this. In terms of Korean fermentation, if you go take a step back, what's your thoughts on using oysters in the fermentation?

Well, fermented fish is a common nutrient source throughout Europe and potentially Asia as well. I mean, ketchup was originally a fermented fish sauce from Indonesia. Somehow it got turned into tomatoes in the New World. It was actually made from mushrooms and things like that in Europe. But really. Right. People were trying to get at is this umami flavor that's being enhanced by the fermentation of fish. In Ireland, they would stuff fish heads with oatmeal and then bury them in the wall, which were made of peat moss. Right. And then they would dig them out and eat them. You have lutefisk up in Scandinavia where they literally put the fish in lye. And again, this really points to, like I'm sure Sandor has talked about in his Art of Fermentation. Literally every culture on this planet has some ferment that probably someone else thinks is disgusting, but was really an important nutrient source for those people based what they had available to them. So I think fermented fish is really. I mean, you see it in the fish sauce and the non ploys and all kinds of stuff. Like it's not an uncommon ingredient.

We're coming out to time, but if you wouldn't mind, I've got a couple more absolutely burning questions to ask you.

Okay, I'll answer them quickly.

Mold, in terms of mold. So what's your thoughts on mold? How do we. Because this is a pitfall that so many big beginners go into. Say, how do we stop mold from forming in kombucha?

Strong enough starter liquid, enough starter liquid and temperature. Mold is a way of telling you something's not appropriate to consume. It forms on cheese, on fruit, on any kind of food. So again, this mold isn't, you know, this like magic mold that's going to kill you more than any other type of mold. It's just basic food mold. And, and I think going back to that original question, like, what are people afraid of? They're afraid because they don't understand. Kombucha is actually just a food. It's just a food. It's just a food and drink like any other food and drink in the world. It's magical properties just has to do with the fact that it's alive and it's full of nutrients that haven't been processed out of it. And so when we see mold, it's just an indicator that something in the environment is off or our ingredients aren't strong enough. And so it's real easy to just get rid of it by disposing of everything. Now. Right. Sometimes you cut the mold off the cheese and eat the cheese anyways. We just don't really recommend that anymore. Same with the sauerkraut. Right. You just scoop it off the top and eat what's underneath. And you have to decide, is my immune system strong enough to tolerate the little bit of mold residue that might be in there or do I want to be completely safe? Dump everything. And this is why you have your Scoby Hotel in the first place. So you have an extra culture. You can then revitalize your process.

Yep. So maybe people listening to the podcast are total newbies. So what's a Scoby Hotel?

Scoby Hotel. Living it up in the hotel Scoby. It's really just a jar with Scoby's in it. Like, the bacterial cellulose is incredibly stable, unlike our kefir grain buddies, which tend to break apart more easily and don't store as long as. Well, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. They're very thick. But with kombucha, that bacterial cellulose is very stable and so we can store it for extended periods of time. Now, it doesn't mean we just completely ignore it for months on end and expect it's going to work. It does still need some nutrients from time to time. It is still alive, but it can stay in that sort of stable environment for a really long time. And so it's literally just your extra scobys in a jar with some liquid, whether that liquid is kombucha or sweet tea. And then it can be used as your strong starter for future batches. And so it can actually work to your benefit because then you can drink everything in your jar. Know, you can just go to your hotel, grab some strong starter, top off with a little sweet tea, and everything sort of stays fresh and fluid that way.

Great. Thank you for explaining. And one of our prominent members in our group asked us a question. He's one of our moderators, Arthur, Wonderful man. And he asked a question about making kombucha without tea. So I think you covered it to a certain extent when you're talking about using the daughters. So what's the. The, I guess the modus operandi for making a kombucha without tea?

Right. So tea is a wonderful nutrient source. People are worried kombucha has caffeine, when in reality, kombucha has far less caffeine than the tea you started with. So it's kind of a weird thing that it gets that rep, but it's really because of the increased energy you get from improved digestion as well as, excuse me, kombucha burps those B vitamins and living things. And so, again, as we discussed, it's flexible technology. Make herbal kombucha, if that's your jam. Sometimes the cultures will evolve. And this is why we assume that jun is potentially an evolution of kombucha. It just had time to get used to the elements in the raw honey and the green tea. And so we can create scobys that will ferment a wide range of substrates. And we even see scobys form in apple cider vinegar. So again, they have a lot of acetobacter from the fruit flies that inoculate the fruit and lead to this really yummy, tangy flavor. But of course, apples have different nutrients than tea does. And so a apple cider vinegar mother is going to have different organisms than a scoby for kombucha will have. And it's not to say one is better or more ripe than the other. It's just one is more diverse based on the substrate it's been fed, and the other is more diverse for the substrate it's been fed fed. And so, you know, it's really that personal choice and experimentation. And, you know, we haven't even seen the end of kombucha. Like, we're just at the tip of the iceberg. People are so into hard kombucha right now, making higher alcohol kombucha, which, you know, my favorite way to have hard kombucha is just to spike it with some alcohol. But you know, people are experimenting, they're trying different yeasts, they're, you know, it's, it's fun and flexible and fluid and why not?

It's really exciting where that space is headed. And I think it's a perfect segue to talk about your non for profit and that's your kombucha Brewing is IT.

Association, it's kbi Kombucha Brewers International. From the outset I knew that I wanted to include everybody in the world. So Alex and I, Alex is my husband, my Scoby partner, my other half here. We founded it in 2014 specifically to meet the needs of the crisis that was created in 2010 when Whole Foods took all the kombucha off the shelf because of these trace amounts of alcohol that can be higher than our half a percent ABV legal limit. So it truly was coming out of that space that we then we needed to bring people together. We'd already been working with kombucha producers. We did a 30 day kombucha challenge a few years ago, something I need to resurrect again at some point. But we really wanted to spread the word of kombucha and by supporting the commercial producers who are getting bottles into consumers hands and introducing it to a wider audience, the best way to do that was through the association. And we have our sixth annual conference coming up here in April in Long Beach, California. I mean, it's kind of crazy, right? Like I said, you're doing your task, you're living your life and all of a sudden you take a moment to pause and reflect and it is just so exciting. How many of these businesses have grown, how many more new kombucha producers there are not just here in the US but around the world. How many more universities have students wanting to do research on kombucha? We're initiating a study with University of New Zealand. They reached out to us. So we're just really excited to continue to contribute to this body of knowledge. Because what kombucha drinkers know is that it has a positive impact in their body. I was going to be denigrating here what every misinformed article out there says is like, woo, danger, danger. We you don't know. Okay? It's only because it hasn't been around that long and all these old stories that came up in the 90s really came from people not understanding what other health challenges the person was dealing with. And again, not everybody can have every food and not expect to have some sort of physiological reaction. So kombucha is safe for almost everybody to consume with a very small segment of people who are severely immunocompromised and everyone can enjoy kombucha. And it's. It's just like any other food you would include in your diet on a regular basis.

Wonderful. And we're going to start to wrap now, just a couple of questions. Burning question of mine is, what's your thoughts on the probiotic content of kombucha?

So this is an interesting one and one we need to do more education about. And that is. So probiotics are confusing word in the first place. It doesn't have a really cohesive definition. Basically it's something that confers a benefit on the human body. By that definition, I mean, almost anything that isn't processed to death could be considered a probiotic. Right. Like a raw carrot has nutrients and enzymes and potentially organisms in a living form on the skin that help our bodies. And so there's some confusion here and there's a line of people who want to create a definition such that really only pills that they're making with special organisms designed to withstand the acids in the gut are allowed to be called probiotics. So I don't agree with that either, really. Kombucha doesn't have numerous organisms, it has acids, it has healthy organic acids that help the body in a different way. If you want lots of bacteria, you go to kefir, milk, kefir water, kefir, things like that. Kombucha isn't really about billions of organisms, it's really about those healthy acids made later in the fermentation process.

Excuse me. My colleague James has just got another meeting, so he's hopped off. We're about to wrap. So, in terms of the probiotics, I think the most well known one is the saccharomyces type. Is it Saccharomyces boulardii or Cerevisi?

I have to admit, in all of our studies, it's almost never come up. I almost never see kombucha. I mean, it's just the reality of it and that's. It doesn't mean kombucha is not good for you.

Yeah, absolutely right.

But this is this. And you probably get this more Caribbean. But just people want to latch onto the one thing. What's the one thing I need to have in my. And it's like, it's not one thing, people. It's not one. It's diversity. It's many different things and trace amounts, and some of those might even have to be, you know, toxic in large amounts. Like, we don't even totally know what our bodies need.

Yes. Admittedly, we've run studies on Kombucha. We've never found found Boulari either. We do find a lot of these, Acetobacter, and we do find Cerevisiae, which are known probiotics. But again, I lean. I 100% agree on you. I think there's a huge amount of benefits in the organic acids present. The acetic acid gluconic, the glucuronic, hugely beneficial. So Kombucha is definitely one to include in the gut healing or gut helping arsenal for sure. So we'll start to wrap and the question I like to ask my guests is if there is one thing you would do for your gut health, Hannah, what would it be?

I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is eat dirt. And what I mean by this, go out in nature and just touch plants, touch dirt. I mean, obviously, if you know it's got a lot of toxic chemicals on it, don't do that. But I mean, babies put dirt in their mouth for a reason. This is our immune system. Everything comes through here. And the more that we can embrace our dogs, our cats, things that carry different bacterial organisms than us, then we just diversify our microbiome. So go hug somebody. That's a great way to help boost your health and release some oxytocin and get some good vibes, right?

Yeah. Toby, go play with your dog and pat the dog and give him a kiss. That might help as well.

Exactly right.

I think huge amount of gratitude, Hannah, for having you on the podcast. It was so much fun. You're such a vibrant, engaging, enthusiastic speaker, and I'm hugely blessed to have you on the podcast and I'm 100% sure our audience are going to love this episode. So thank you so much, Hannah Crumb.

Thank you, Crib and Govinda. Really appreciate it.

Thank.

You.