Jeff Chilton on Medicinal Mushrooms

This episode is brought to you by Nourish Me Organics, your Gut health superstore. Nourish Me Organics are amazing when it comes to gut health supplementation, home fermentation kits, probiotics, prebiotics, and so much more. So do head to www.nourishmeorganics.com and use the code Happy Gut for for 10% off. Hey, guys. Criben Govender from the Gut Health Gurus podcast. I've got a background in food science, and today we are going to be exploring a fascinating topic, something that's piquing my interest in so many ways. And I was so fortunate to get the opportunity to talk to a domain expert in the field of mushrooms, Jeff Chilton. Welcome to the show.

Cribbin. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here.

My absolute pleasure, Jeff. And at the start of every show, we'd like to get it from the horse's mouth. Who is Jeff Chan, Chilton?

Well, I was born and raised in the Pacific Northwest in the United States in Washington State. It's a land of green trees. In fact, it's called the Evergreen State. We have lots of water, lakes, rivers. It rains all the time. So unlike Australia, we don't have to worry about water. So in this environment, it's actually one of probably the best places in the world for wild mushrooms. So we have wild mushrooms everywhere. I went out early with friends and parents of friends and went wild mushroom picking. And the thing about going out for wild mushrooms is you're walking through the woods. It's a beautiful environment, and if you find the right kind of mushrooms, it's like a treasure hunt. You've just found treasure. So that kind of interested me early. Then when I went to university, my major was anthropology. This is the late 60s, by the way, anthropology. But I also studied some mycology. And then after university, I decided that I'd like to continue on with my mycological studies, but not as an academic. And so I went to work on a very large mushroom farm in 1973, and I stayed there on that mushroom farm for the next 10 years. So I was literally living with mushrooms for 10 years.

That's a fascinating origin story. And there's so many rabbit holes I want to jump down. I'm like a kid in the candy store when it comes to mushrooms at the moment. Just to let you know, Jeff, I've just embarked on a journey of starting to grow my own mushrooms at home. I've been actually, it's coming into Almost summer now, but in the, in the kind of the cooler months, I was out exploring and trying to teach myself how to pick mushrooms and downloading apps on my phone and how to identify mushrooms and things like that.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, you know what, I wrote a book in 1983 called the Mushroom Cultivator, A Practical Guide to Growing Mushrooms at Home. I should send you a copy then, because, yes, it's got everything you need in there to grow mushrooms on a small scale.

Absolutely. And just to give the audience a heads up on why I'm so interested in mushrooms and why I'm so interested in this conversation, there's a couple of things. Firstly, this is the Gut Health Gurus podcast and I've seen some studies regarding mushrooms and the benefits of certain compounds in mushrooms for enhancing the growth of beneficial bacteria in the gut. So that's one topic that really piques my interest. The second thing is the medicinal compounds found in mushrooms to benefit health. And then thirdly, the emerging field of using mushrooms or certain types of mushrooms to treat or to assist in the treatment of anxiety and depression, which is something that I've struggled for a long time in my life and certainly Gut health has helped me a lot. But I'm really fascinated about the field of using psilocybin and psilocybin type mushrooms to, to assist with people with post traumatic stress disorders, with anxiety and depression, and a whole myriad of other illnesses. So there's lots of topics we can jump into. And how about we start with the medicinal properties of mushrooms that you've the types and the benefits of mushrooms?

Yeah, sure. Well, you know what, the key to the medicinal mushroom is a compound called a beta glucan. The beta glucan is found in the cell walls of all mushrooms, but certain mushrooms are more powerful than others, and that's because the architecture of that beta glucan changes from mushroom to mushroom. They all have these beta glucans. So even when you're eating mushrooms that we don't necessarily consider medicinal, they still have a lot of very beneficial properties, one of which I'll mention right now, which is fiber. Mushrooms are super high in fiber, so they're feeding your microbiome when you're eating mushrooms. That's one of the benefits right there. But these beta glucans, there is just a ton of scientific research on beta glucans. I mean, thousands of papers on the benefits of beta glucan. And what they do is they actually stimulate the production of immune cells, whether that's helper T cells, macrophages those types of cells. And they do that by hitting. We actually have receptor sites in our lower intestine that they activate, and then they produce these immune cells. And so what's interesting about that too, is that they're called a host defense potentiator or a. What's the other one. But what they're doing is they're sitting in the background, and if we need them to have that effect for us, they'll do it if we need that sort of burst of immunological activity. But if we don't, they'll just stay there. So in that sense, they're an adaptogen and again, a potentiator here. So that's kind of how they work. And these beta glucans are the key active compound in all mushrooms. That's one of the things that we test for. We test every mushroom product that we sell for these beta glucans. And that is just so important. We can talk about product quality as we go along, because testing is something that I love. Because with herbal products, how do you really know whether they work or not? And how do you really know that the herb you've got is fresh or has the compounds that you're supposed to have? It's so difficult. And especially if you go into a store and you look at what's on the shelves and you're trying to figure out what brand is good. There's so many brands actually being able to test is something that is very important to us. And again, beta glucans are the primary compound that we're looking for.

And something that's piquing my interest and fascinating to explore. There's all these different types of mushrooms. So in terms of the beta glucan content, are there some mushrooms that have more of it than others? Is there like a hierarchy in terms of the content of beta glucan?

Well, you know, there actually is a hierarchy there. But for example, the two. In all of our testing, the two mushrooms that are highest in beta glucan are reishi, which is really interesting, and another one called turkey tail. Those two measure out at about 50% beta glucan, which is really incredible. Most of the other mushrooms would be anywhere from 25 to 50% beta glucan. Shiitake would be 30% maitake, somewhere around 35%. And the thing about it is, it's not just the beta glucans that we're looking at. We're looking at other compounds. For example, in reishi and chaga, they have what are called triterpenoids. Have you ever tasted a reishi mushroom, just an actual reishi mushroom, or had a reishi mushroom tea?

Yeah, absolutely. I have it pretty much every day.

Well, reishi is bitter and those bitter compounds are the triterpenoids. And that's when you know you've got a reishi mushroom that's high quality mushroom because not all of the ganoderma species and reishi is what we call ganoderma ling chi. Not all of the ganoderma species have these triterpenoids, but this particular one, the true reishi is bitter. And those bitter compounds are very good for your liver. In fact, at a conference in China for reishi, there was a traditional Chinese practitioner there and I was talking to him about it and he said it is his number one herb for the liver. And I was like, wow, that's really interesting. And he even said he used as much as 30 dried grams, which is like, that's quite a lot of mushroom. But you know, the interesting thing about traditional Chinese medicine is they, when they're using herbs, they want to see something happen. They don't, you know, use a little bit or anything. Like they want some, they want an effect. So, you know, you know, sometimes when you're, when you're taking supplements, well, the bottle tells you to take two capsules and there's 500 milligrams per capsule. And guess what, there's 60 capsules, which means you have one month supply. Well, and they're telling that to people that are like, some people might weigh like 60 kilos, somebody might weigh 80 kilos. And they're saying for everybody to take the same amount. So, you know, that's one of the things you really have to be aware of when you're out there, you know, trying to find the right supplement and taking the right amount. Because sometimes the supplement might say it's got reishi in it. It'll just be what we call fairy dusting, where it's just a little bit in there and they're just using it as a marketing ploy.

And one thing that fascinates me and certainly confuses me as well is the difference between the fruiting body and the mycelium. Because. Because you'll often see that in the packaging or labeling of the product. So firstly, how about we define the two different aspects of the mushroom and then is one better than the other or they're both the same in terms of mycelium fruiting bodies?

Well, yeah, and let's talk about that for a second. That's really great. Just for Your listeners, too, that mushrooms don't have seeds. How do you grow mushrooms? They don't have any seeds. They actually have spores. So with every herb we. In the. In the whole. If you're looking at medicinal plants, you think about the different. What we call plant parts. You know, is there a root, is there a fruit, is there a leaf? Where is it that the medicinal compounds come from? So with a mushroom, you have a spore, which. That spore, when it germinates, it germinates into a very fine filament. And you've probably seen that by now. And that fine filament comes together with other of these filaments from different spores that have germinated, and that turns into a network. And a network of those filaments we call mycelium. That mycelium is the actual body of this fungus. It's like the tree of this fungus, whereas the mushroom is the fruit of that tree. And what happens is that once that mycelium has got a lot of nutrients and it's colonizing, for example, it's out there. We don't normally see it. It's underground. It's in a piece of wood. Most people harvesting mushrooms or picking wild mushrooms, they don't even know it's there because we can't see it. What we see when we're walking around the woods or around the neighborhood is we see this mushroom pop up, but we don't actually see the actual body of this fungus that is under the ground there. So the mushroom comes up, it matures. As it matures, it opens up to, like, an umbrella. There's gills underneath. Those gills produce spores. Now we have a completion of the life cycle. When I'm thinking of medicinal mushrooms, I'm going, okay. It has three plant parts. Spore, mycelium, and mushroom. Now, do they all have the same medicinal effects? Well, you know what the fact of the matter is, mycelium does have beta glucans, but it's actually a very simple part of it compared to the mushroom. That mushroom is like a biofactory. What it's feeding on allows it to actually produce. These triterpenoids produce other compounds that are not in the mycelium. And reishi is a perfect example of that. Because the reishi triterpenoids are almost exclusively produced by the mushroom, and the mushroom produces a large amount of triterpenoids. The mycelium produces some obscure triterpenoids in very small amounts, but nothing like the actual mushroom. And this is true of most of the mushrooms. Is that really the benefits are in the mushroom itself, the mycelium. Actually, if you had pure mycelium, you'd get some benefits from the beta glucan. But let me just alert you for a minute to the whole what's going on in the industry, and that is a lot of companies out there are growing the mycelium on grains. The interesting part about it, and if you're getting into growing mushrooms, well, grain is actually something that as a mushroom grower, we would use that as a carrier for mycelium, and then that would become seed to grow mushrooms. Because again, the seed to grow mushrooms is actually mycelium. But you need something to put it on to, then you can mix into whatever it is you're going to grow, your compost, your sawdust or something. So grains have traditionally been used as a carrier. But what some companies do is they grow the mycelium onto the grain. Then when that grain is colonized, they will then dry it and grind it to a powder, grain and all. And what happens is that when we measure those products, and I've done a whole study on this, it turns out that those products are mostly starch from all of the grains. And when you have that much residual grain as starch in the product, the beta glucan content is very low. So what we found is that these particular products are, let's say, 30 to 60% alpha, which is the starch, and maybe around 5 or 6% beta glucan. Whereas that's just the opposite with an actual mushroom. An actual mushroom is 25 to 50% beta glucan, and about 2% mushrooms don't have starch. What they have is glycogen, about 2% of glycogen. So it's just the opposite. So if you are looking for a good, good product, really, you have to be careful if it says mycelium on the back, if you're lucky, because a lot of them don't even reveal that. If it says in the other ingredients, which sometimes we have to have that, what else is in there? Other. Well, sometimes they'll put my ciliated rice or my ciliated oats or something like that. If you see that on a retail mushroom product, put it back on the shelf because it's going to be mostly starch. And that is something that is so important because if you want to get the real benefits of mushrooms, then you want to be sure you're getting a mushroom. You look at the label and it shows a picture of a mushroom. It says reishi mushroom. And you think oh, it's a great mushroom product. You don't even know. No, you know, because sometimes they don't even tell you on the back. They just say, oh, yeah, it's ganoderma or so. You have to be very careful. But that's really the key thing is what we're looking for is the mushroom. The mushroom is what's been used traditionally by traditional Chinese medicine. So that's where all of the real activity lies, is in the mushroom itself.

I'm really fascinated and thank you for highlighting these, these factors that influence choice when people are picking products. And I think we see that across the food industry with the use of fillers and really diluting the benefits of the product and making it, I suspect, making it cheaper in production as well. So you're not fully getting the purported benefits of the product with these additional processes and fillers being added to the product.

Well, and what's happening is that mushrooms are expensive to grow. I mean, if you're growing mushrooms, you can sort of get an idea of what it's like and to grow them. And there's a lot involved. And here's the other thing about mushrooms. They're all harvested by hand, by hand. Every single mushroom that you see in the supermarket has been picked by hand in the growing houses, wherever they are. So it's very expensive. And that's why these other products are produced, because they're very cheap to produce. And you can imagine if you're actually selling grain powder instead of a mushroom, the expense is night and day.

Yeah. And especially if someone's going on some sort of protocol like paleo or keto, and you're adding these hidden carbs into your protocol, which might go against the grain, for want of a better word.

Yeah, exactly. And you know, every year we attach a conference in the us it's called Paleo FX and it's for Paleo people. And I have them come up to my booth and they say, oh, mushrooms, wow, this is great. And I love mushrooms. I'm taking this great mushroom product and I ask them the brand and nine times out of 10, the brand that they're taking is one of these brands that's mostly starch. And when I tell them that, they're shocked. Absolutely shocked.

That's the thing. I don't blame people for going out and trying to get the most cost effective product. But typically, from my experience, you really get what you're paying for. There's a reason why some products are marked at a cheaper RRP versus other products that are perhaps More expensive from the outset by looking at, at the product. But there's a reason for that and I'm sure one of the reasons that you're highlighting.

Absolutely. And just be very careful and look very closely. And I know in Australia there's. Because I was just there and I saw a few of the different brands and you know what, I would be very careful and look very closely. And if you have any questions, just call them up and ask them. Are they selling you real mushrooms? Is it real mushrooms or is it actually my ciliated grain?

Well, thank you for the heads up. Just a sidetrack. Something that, a little thought bubble that popped in my head. How did mushrooms come to the fore in terms of their medicinal benefits? I think you hinted a little bit about the Chinese medicine aspect, but how about you break it down for us?

Sure, sure. You know, it's interesting because I was just China for a conference there. It was actually the 10th annual, or not actually annual, but 10th Medicinal Mushroom Conference in China. And it was fantastic. And they talked about the use of mushrooms through antiquity. And I think they stated that there was somewhere around 180 different species that had been used and 800 different formulas that included mushrooms in them. So it's a very long practice of use. But the fact of the matter is that in the west, herbalists were really not onto mushrooms. You know, in China and Asia, well, they've been eating mushrooms for thousands of years. So we actually in the west, but for some reason in North America and probably Australia and the uk, it just sort of. We kind of lost that. I don't know. They started cultivating one mushroom and that's the button mushroom you see in the supermarket said, you know what, I like that mushroom. That was what was being grown on the farm that I went to. And it was like £2 million of that a year. And I never got sick of it. I can still eat it, I like it. But there's so many of these other mushrooms there. And so in 1989, I started my company, NAMX, and we were the first company to actually introduce medicinal mushrooms into the herbal marketplace in the United States. Everybody had a complete line of green herbs. They had botanists on staff and they knew all about plants, but nobody knew anything about mushrooms. And so when I was out just walking around at trade shows trying to, to educate people about the use of mushrooms and it took articles, it took books, it took trade shows, it took a lot of time to introduce them to the point where in the late 90s, a lot of companies now had mushrooms in their product line, whether it was shiitake or reishi, but still, there wasn't really that much use of them out there as an herbal product. But, you know, it's kind of interesting because right now, oh, God, it's just like all of a sudden, it's just exploded three years ago. So I'm sure, you know, it's kind of like every time you turn around, another article has been written about mushrooms. And, you know, I think a couple of things that all of a sudden happened. One is, you know, nothing happens overnight. It's been since I got into the mushroom industry in 1973, it's just been a very, very slow education for people in the food markets to finally realize that mushrooms are a real healthy food. And, you know, when I first got into that, the classical nutritionists thought that mushrooms had no actual food value at all. They just thought, oh yeah, mushrooms kind of a garnish. It. It tastes good, but got no food diet. And the reason they thought that was because mushrooms are low in calories. One of the reasons for that is that they have a lot of fiber. And back then, fiber was not quite as big as it is today in terms of our knowledge of fiber and how important it is and the microbiome.

And all of this.

That was a big part of it was just like, okay, there's no calories. If it got no calories, you got no food value for us because we want energy. So that has finally shifted through a lot of educational campaigns. And also just in the last 20 years, especially in North America, we've got people growing mushrooms that are different species, which makes it much more interesting. So there's shiitake mushrooms, Maitake, and when I was in Brisbane, there was a small mushroom grower there who's at the Saturday market in Brisbane, and he had about six or seven different species of mushrooms there that he was selling. And now if you go into the supermarket or something, you can see multiple species of mushrooms and actually purchase them, especially if you're in a larger city. And then there have been certain people out there that have been talking more about mushrooms. And so all of a sudden, it's just kind of like it finally just kind of reached that tipping point. I don't think there's any going back. I think mushrooms are here to stay. Part of it is, I tell people, look, be sure you put mushrooms into your diet because they're a great food. You can supplement with them, which is fine, but put them into your diet because really they're Feeding your microbiome. Not only that, just as an example here. Are you familiar at all with Lion's Mane Cribbon?

Yeah, absolutely. It's something that I use before I do presentations. Something to sharpen my mental focus.

Yes. So Lion's Mane is our top selling mushroom right now, if you can imagine that. And three years ago, I don't think we sold 20 kilos. I think maybe last year we might have sold 10 tons.

Wowzers.

And you know, it's interesting because Lion's Mane has these compounds and these particular compounds stimulate what is called nerve growth factor. And nerve growth factor is really important for the maintenance of our neurons. And that is something we all can use a little bit of help. I get help from coffee in the morning.

That's it.

There's a whole category now called the nootropics over here. Nootropic is anything that kind of enhances performance. So right now. And you know. And you talked about it too with. We talked a little bit about the whole thing of psilocybin mushrooms now and how they have come to the fore. And boy, if you want to want something where you definitely know whether it's working or not, you can take those because they have compounds in there. Well, psilocybin, which is very active and it's a definite nootropic. And when you get it up to a certain level, like maybe 250 to 500 milligrams, you can start to feel a few things.

I'll pause you there for a second because I do want to come back to that topic, but how about we just finish off the. Because I'm fascinated to get in that rabbit hole. I want to give it a bit more. Bit more airtime. But how about we just wrap up the general gourmet kind of medicinal mushroom space and then we'll move on to psilocybin.

Sure.

Well, so let's talk about the. So if someone was going to have a toolkit of different mushrooms to use for different ailments or situations in their life. So you mentioned reishi. You mentioned lion's mane turkey tail. There's another one called cordyceps which I use often for exercise and sports enhancement. So how about we break down the main medicinal mushrooms and what situations people should use these particular mushrooms?

Sure. If there's any one mushroom that somebody wants to use regularly, it's Reishi. Reishi. Reishi is different from all the others in that it's got the beta glucans, but it also has these triterpenoids and that's something that in China, especially as you're getting older, reishi becomes like the one that most people will take. It's actually called the mushroom of immortality, but it's something that will help you as you age. So it's kind of a longevity herb. It's also been used. Reishi, turkey tail, maitake have all been used when you have immunological difficulties. Maybe you're going through a cancer treatment or something, something like that. Your immune system is being destroyed by the chemo, the radiation, and you need something to help your immune system cope with that. Those three mushrooms would be really high on my list for that lion's mane, certainly for cognitive enhancement. That's something that it is noted for. Chaga. If you have any issues with your stomach issues, that's been one that's really. That's one of its primary uses is if you have issues in your alimentary canal. And people with irritable bowel syndrome or Crohn's disease or something like that, I highly recommend that they try chaga and see whether it might help you there. Cordyceps. Interesting thing about cordyceps is that it was used for what's called neurasthenia. Somebody who's still weak from a long illness, and they can't quite break out of that illness. They would prescribe them cordyceps. And so you think about that in a sense of, okay, they're fatigued, they're tired. So cordyceps. And that's where it's kind of drifted into the whole athletic sort of thing. And you know how they measure, figure out whether something can be used that way is they take a small pool of water and they click a stopwatch and they put a mouse in there, and the mouse swims, and it will swim in there. And when it stops swimming and, okay, this is it, then they stopwatch again and they take it out. And, well, so they do that with a control mouse, and they do that with a mouse that's been taking something like cordyceps. And then they go, wow, with that diet of cordyceps, for the last week, this mouse has swam for 60 seconds longer than the one who didn't. That's one of the ways that they measure fatigue in animal models, which is really interesting. And Reishi is good for that. Cordyceps. So those two. That's what I think about those two mushrooms. And then there's a few. I mean, shiitake. Everybody should put shiitake into their diet. It's a fabulous mushroom. It would Definitely help you with any sort of immunological issues. And again, I just look at it as almost like prevention. And that's what I like to think about in terms of if somebody's like, well, should I really be taking this? Yes. As a preventive medicine, you should be eating and, if necessary, supplementing with some mushrooms. Definitely look at it that way. In a sense, I look at it, too, as food as medicine. And mushrooms are just a primary example of that.

Absolutely. Jeff, thank you so much. I was not aware that chaga was so beneficial, along with all the other beneficial aspects of all the different mushrooms that you mentioned. But that's fascinating because a lot of our listeners are into that gut health regime, gut health space, and suffering with gut illnesses like IBS or Crohn's. How absolutely trying that.

Yeah. And the other thing. Let me just say this one. This too. The Internet is full of amazing amounts of hype. Please don't listen to all the hype out there about whatever it is. But chaga right now is, you know, it's out there, and it's the king of mushrooms, and there's nothing it won't do. It'll do everything, you know, and it's just like, the hype is way too much. You have to look at it. And the way I look at it is, okay, let's get it down to two or three or four things that they're very effective for, and talk about those and all of that other stuff. Just take it away, because I don't want to hear it. Pure marketing speak is what it is.

I hear you, Jeff, and I always come back to, is there studies behind this thing? And chaga is certainly one of these mushrooms and the compounds in there that are pretty well studied. Would you agree?

Yes, absolutely. I mean, the triterpenoids there have been quite well studied, and they are antiviral, antibacterial, and so, yes, absolutely. There's got a lot of good research on chaga.

And reishi, correct me if I'm wrong, is probably the one that's got the most studies out of any mushroom.

Absolutely. The amount of studies on Reishi is just legion. I mean, it's like the most studied mushroom in China, for one, where most. That's where most of the papers or the majority of the papers have been written on Reishi.

Yeah. And, you know, these. Just to give the listeners a heads up, Reishi and cacao is a blend that I make for just maintaining just good health. I think Reishi has just got all these terpenoids as Jeff mentioned. But then also with the cacao combination of having all the polyphenols to feed the good bacteria like Akkermansia. So you know, you've got your beta glucans that feed bifidobacteria, which are incredibly important keystone peacekeeping bacteria in the gut. And then you've got using something like cacao, raw cacao, to feed Akkermansia muciniphili, which is another important bacteria that maintains the integrity of the gut lining. So that's just a little hack for you guys.

Sounds great.

Sounds Reishi and raw cacao.

I put reishi actually in the morning I put reishi into my coffee and I have a reishi coffee to start the day and I just put it in as is very bitter. But I like my coffee of dark roast and I don't sweeten it anyway. And it just kind of adds another bitter note to it all.

Yeah, I hear you. Mushrooms do pair very well from a taste perspective with coffee.

I think I should add some cacao to that too though, thinking try it.

Out and let me know what you think.

I will, I will. That sounds really good.

Is there any other mushrooms that are perhaps emerging that people, from a medicinal point of view that people might not be aware of?

You know, it's interesting because at this conference they did talk about some of the, some different mushrooms that that they've been studying and they're very active. One of which is called Phulinus. You're probably hearing more about that. Mesuma, I believe is also. And they also have a name for it in Chinese. The other thing that they have just learned how to cultivate was the cauliflower mushroom, which has medicinal properties as well. And that's just a fabulous edible mushroom if we find it here in my local woods where very happy. It does look a lot flowery, almost like a cauliflower. And when you fry it up, it's like crunchy noodles. It's delicious. So there's a few other mushrooms coming down the pike, but right now we've got these core of about 8 or 10 mushrooms and unless it's really special, it's hard to break into that top group. But, but here's something that's really fascinating is that, is that there was a paper at this conference where this scientist had actually grown 91 different species of Cordyceps.

Oh wow.

91 different species. I mean right now we grow a certain species of cordyceps and then there's the wild crafted caterpillar fungus that's out there. But he went out he found all of these other different species, brought them back to his lab, got an actual culture, and then got them to grow. So I mean, that's just like amazing. And when you think 91 different species, I mean, what if you start to analyze those, what are you going to find? It could be any number of really interesting compounds. So that was really a major breakthrough.

Yeah. Just as a side note, something that I'm learning about the. What's the word for it? Mycology. So correct me if I'm wrong. So with mushrooms, I guess when spores come together, it's almost sexual interaction or reproduction. So all these different spores that combine with each other give rise to a lot of genetic diversity in the different strains of mushrooms that can be produced from a group?

Well, yes and no. The fact of the matter is, is that, is that different species will not interbreed.

I didn't mean interbreed with each other. I just mean within that one type.

Oh, within that one species, absolutely. I mean, if you have multispores coming together and they do have mating types and they will produce different hybrids, so to speak, just like the genetics of that same species from a different part of the world will have a whole different sort of what has been growing on the type of wood. So it could have a completely different profile. They've demonstrated that the amounts and types of. In fact, there was someone who did a paper on the different triterpenoid profile of different reishi mushrooms. So this is absolutely what goes on out there.

Wow. It's a fascinating area. We could go down very deep.

Oh yeah, yeah. There's so many avenues that we could go down, no question about it.

So before we finish off that loop, what's really interesting with you mentioned frying up your mushrooms and that triggered a memory for me. And what's really useful to do is especially those on kind of keto paleo type diets and they're frying up whether it's meat or it's bacon or something like that. What I like to do at the end of the process is just throw in some mushrooms. What that does is just absorbs all the oils and the flavors and the good fats from that. Rather than just washing it down the sink, use the mushrooms.

And that's great.

Yeah, like a fantastic.

Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, that really. That's really cool. You know, and what I would say too, for people who are just frying up the mushrooms, what I recommend too is to actually fry them up in a fairly high temperature.

Right.

Because you know what will happen sometimes is if the temperature is too low, the water will come right out of them.

Yes.

And unless you're making a gravy, which is fine, someone could, you know, do that, because you can have a mushroom gravy that way. But a lot of times what happens is then you're eating them and your son is going, oh, my God, that's so slimy.

I do have a burning question for you, Jeff. I've recently started growing oyster mushroom. Yeah, they seem to be like a relatively beginner friendly one to grow.

Absolutely.

So my question is, because I'm eating, I'm actually producing a lot of. I did produce a lot of oyster mushrooms. They seem to have gone a bit stagnant at the moment. They're not doing much.

Well, that's okay.

It's getting warmer, I think. So the temp is probably getting a bit too warm for it. Perhaps. But is there any benefits from just basic old oyster mushrooms?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Oyster mushrooms have really good medicinal properties. In fact, that's one that I didn't mention, but that's sort of in the top 10. And that's mushrooms supply not only with the beta glucans, but also they had compounds that were really interesting. Lovastatins, which people were like, wow, lovastatins. I mean, I mean that was kind of when people were more like, oh, cholesterol, kind of use them for anti cholesterol these days. That's not such a thing. Right. But they've got quite a lot of interesting compounds there. And so it's a definite medicinal mushroom in terms of growing it. Yes, it's one of the easier ones to grow. And remember that when you're growing a mushroom, your first flush will come on and that will tend to be your biggest flush. And then there'll be a resting period. And then if you treat it right with proper humidity and don't let it dry out, then maybe a week later you'll start to see the formation of what we call the second flush. But each flush will be a little bit less. And, you know, maybe if you get a third flush, it's good, but after that it's pretty much spent. And then you can take that straw or whatever you're growing it in and use it for mulch or, you know, in your compost or something. I mean, that's the beauty of mushrooms is that that Mycenaeum is breaking down agricultural waste and turning it into high quality food products.

That's a really interesting side note to explore because with climate change being such A hot topic, sustainability, recyclability of things. What's your thoughts on using mycology to break down environmental toxins, wastes?

Well, you know what? The fact of the matter is that certainly different fungi have demonstrated that property. Here's what's kind of interesting about it, is that most of those fungi that do that are not the edible mushrooms at all. Most of them are what we would call imperfect fungi, and those are the fungi that we would refer to as molds. Most people, when you see a mold, you're like, oh, my God, time to clean things up. Right? Well, it was the molds in that group of imperfect fungi that produced penicillin, those same fungi, and the reason we call them imperfect is they don't produce a perfect form, which is the mushrooms. There are imperfect and perfect fungi, and it's the perfect ones that will produce a mushroom, but the imperfect ones do not. They're just a mold. They're out there in the soil, too, working, breaking stuff down, and they're producing all sorts of interesting compounds. So definitely, I mean, you know, I kind of crib and I kind of try to look at it as more of a ecology because we, you know, the microorganisms that are out there, the bacteria, the yeasts, the molds, the fungi of all sorts, I mean, it is just a really interesting mix of these organisms, including insects as well, breaking everything down. So there's so many things involved in this. I tend not to focus on just one part of all of that. I look at it as a really big ecological mix. And I know there's definitely groups out there that are studying bacteria that can break down hydrocarbons and certain fungi, and all of that's really good, certainly. And maybe they will find something that you can spray on that will do it. But as it is, certainly there are the whole ecology, which is breaking down all the organic matter that's out there. For one, without all of those organisms, we would be covered in leaves and branches and all of the stuff that never really would break down without them.

Exactly. Interesting side note, what's your thoughts on mycorrhizal fungi?

Well, I mean, there are many, many mycorrhizal fungi out there. I mean, there. And those are the mushrooms that we can't actually grow. I mean. I mean, we're trying hard, and they've actually, for example, a truffle is actually a mycorrhizal fungus, but. And it actually, they have developed a way to inoculate tree roots. And then there are truffle plantations all over Europe, where they planted like hectares and hectares of these trees, oak trees, normally, and they grow truffles, the mycorrhizae and trees. I mean, it is a relationship that's beneficial to both. It's called a symbiosis. I think these symbiosis are actually part of nature in general, whether it's a fungus and tree roots or these other organisms. Again, I look at it, a lot of people are out there and they think the way they look at the world is nothing but conflict. Whereas for me, I like to think of everything out there as just cooperating. And it's kind of like doing whatever works to benefit themselves and everything else. And so that's kind of how I look at the mycorrhizae and the world that it lives in, where it's working together in a cooperative relationship, it's getting some benefits, it's providing some benefits. Isn't that the way the world should be?

Absolutely. That's the beauty of nature. Isn't can seem like a harsh place sometimes with certain situations that naturally happen in nature? But everything happens in a symbiosis for a reason. There's a reason why there's the apex predator versus the little elk or the deer. And it seems like a horrible thing to get eaten, but everything is balanced by that process of nature.

Well, and you know what? Everything is eating everything, right? I mean, everything is food for some other organism. Ultimately even us at some point, if we just naturally plopped over into a hole or something to be consumed by microorganisms, which would turn us back into something that would benefit somebody else. So we're all just part of this big feast, aren't we?

I hear you. We're pretty much coming up to time and I think it's a really good place now to start to explore psilocybin and then we'll start to wrap. Psilocybin is a really interesting compound, fascinating for anybody with post traumatic stress disorder, anxiety, depression. Now you started to talk about the beneficial compounds in these magic mushrooms or psilocybin type mushrooms. How about we explore that space? Where is it at? Why is it becoming of interest and where is it going? And how could it potentially benefit people in the future?

Well, you know what's really interesting about it is that, is that the use of these mushrooms was rediscovered in the 1950s. And it was discovered that in the mountains, deep in the mountains of Mexico, there were native healers that were still using these mushrooms in healing ceremonies. So it was, it was an amazing discovery. And that was Actually part of what kicked off the whole revolution in consciousness of the 60s. I mean, you know, as a child of the 60s, we were very intimately involved with these mushrooms as well as other compounds. And it was unfortunate that they stopped it and made it all illegal because, you know, the issue really was that we had no real background in how to use them. So we were sort of, you know, sort of had no map here. And it could. Because you always need really when you're using something like that and it's something that is as deeply. The experience of it is so deep and so powerful that having the right setting to do it in is really important. So, you know, the whole thing of setting set, which is your mental state at the time, even in the early 60s, there were some research that was done with people who, when they had these experiences, the most sort of life changing experiences they'd ever had. And now they're able to show that they can have a great benefit for people of end of life issues. They're afraid, they're. They don't know what is coming. That actually helps them through that and allows them to see that they're just part of this bigger thing and allows them to open up and really understand a little bit more that it's not necessarily as bad as they think it is. Addiction. They've used it for people with addiction and they've been able to break addictions by the use of these mushrooms or other compounds and just to mental illness, they've been able to help people with mental illness. So it's really limitless at this point in time. And it's great that it's finally happening because we could have been so much further along had they not made it all illegal. And it's funny because, because for my generation, we've gone through a prohibition for 40 years, not just of mushrooms, but of pot, for example. I mean, it's kind of funny because I think, you know, all the time I spent, all the years I smoked pot, it was all illegal. Now I don't. And it's legal. It's like, well, wait a minute. I mean, I mean, and truthfully, I have friends that have been in jail over it and it was not, you know, it was a pretty unpleasant thing really when you're, when you're faced with that and you're always looking over your shoulder and all the rest, but it is, you know, and now it's like, you know, it's being legalized and I'm just like shocked.

Yeah, totally. I mean, I think the pot is pretty Much everywhere these days, isn't it, when it comes to your neck of the woods?

Oh, it is, yeah.

It was funny. I was recently in Europe and just walked down the street so you can smell it everywhere. It's like, wow. Certainly not. Not in Australia.

It's.

It's not at that stage.

No, no, that's right. But you know what? Yeah, no, I was gonna say it's. It's time and it's gonna take a while for it to kind of settle down because right now it's a huge rush and everybody's kind of going crazy, but it'll settle down. It'll become part of the culture and in a positive way, I'm pretty sure. And so, you know, it's a good thing, I think.

So what I really like about this space, and you highlighted it as well, is setting really matters. And I think working with a practitioner, it's not for people to rush out and find psilocybin in the forest, psilocybin mushrooms in the forest, or, or buy it from somewhere. It's really what I hope to see is to be practitioners. Safe spaces where people can go in and actually get these treatments to handle it. Because in that way then there's less chance of any horror stories. And that will really push back the treatment, I think, almost back to draconian times.

I agree. I think that's a really good point because I think if you want to have that really powerful experience, you need somebody there that can guide you through it and to be there with you and in a safe place where you don't worry about somebody knocking on the door and saying, hey, what are you doing? Or the phone rings or something like that. No, you want to unplug your phone, put something on the door, but no, you need to be in a place that's very supportive and something where you can have that. That experience without anything coming in and affecting it. It can be a life changing experience. On the other hand, there are like, you were talking about the ability for people to microdose. That's something too. That's really fascinating because the fact is that with small amounts, you can sort of reach certain thresholds where it can be very stimulating and can, you know, ultimately be a very positive type of herb, let's just call it mushroom in this sense, but very positive for all sorts of different activities. So that's something that's really, you know, we're just at the beginning of the whole microdose revolution, so to speak, and to see where that goes and to get reports Back from different people. It'll just be quite fascinating to see how that progresses.

Yeah, absolutely. And other side notes is these compounds are not addictive, which is a huge.

Fantastic. Absolutely. Yeah. And considering all of the people out there who unfortunately have been addicted to all the wrong drugs, I mean, and they actually need to get into treatment and maybe even with psilocybin to help pull them out of that, because it's. It's pretty bad in some of the cities in North America. It's pretty bad.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's really exciting to see. I think it's John. Is it John Hopkins that are doing all the research at the moment in the States with their psychedelic research center or something like that. So it's really interesting to see what these scientists come up with and leading the way to bring these compounds to other nations across the world where people really need it. Because we're in the midst of a mental health epidemic right now. Talk about gut health. I mean, we've got also got equally a mental health crisis across the world. So anything that can help in a safe way is certainly going to be beneficial for humanity as a whole.

Well, yes, And I think too, I think we need centers, like almost like retreat centers where people can go and they could have this experience and be able to come away in a much, you know, and have a very positive experience with these things that sort of teaches them. And that's the other side that we don't have right now. But we need more of those. And also there are groups out there now that are starting to form just like for many, many years and still going is like the Native American church where they have actual sort a little more organized and they come together within their group at times with as many as 30, 40 people and have a night session. And it's very supportive and in a controlled setting. Yeah, things like that really need to be promoted.

Absolutely. I think we're up to time, but how about we wrap? So what we like to do is ask at the end of our show, if there is one thing you could do for your health, what would it be?

Jeff? Well, for me, it's just getting outside every day and walking and being in a space. You know, I'm very lucky. I live in a small community and I've got fresh air. I've got some of the best water in the world. Cribbon. It is just fabulous water. I wish I could send you a glass of it right now because it is delicious. But you know, getting out walking, which keeps the body moving, it keeps Breathing in that really good air. So that is something that I feel very strong about. I mean, I focus on my diet. I also do an hour of inside exercise with weights and things like that. But that walking is just, like, critical to getting out. Some people might run, but walking is just great for me, and it just feels good. The other thing I do is I don't try and focus on anything. I try not to focus on anything. I just try to absorb and just let my mind go to wherever it wants to go and not. Not stop on any one thing. Just kind of. We have an expression we call grokking, where, you know, it's from a book way back then, where it's just a deep, deep sort of essential feeling about things. Just trying to get into that space where you're just being a part of it.

You'd be amazed at the number of guests that have said exactly the same thing when it comes to walking. I mean, it's such an underappreciated, utilized regime. And it's almost a form of meditation from what you're describing it as.

Well, it is. And you know what? Part of my philosophy, too, is I'm very much against cars. People think how much time most people spend in a car, and I've spent plenty in my lifetime. But I maybe get into a car once or twice a week, and I only drive a few miles, maybe, I don't know, 5km down to the local store, and that's about it. But I do not. I walk everywhere. And I really feel that that's. That's important in my small community. Even when I was in Brisbane, we walked to the bakery, we walked to the local store, we walked down to that farmer's market on Saturday. I mean, you don't have to get in. I'm a firm believer in public transportation. Stay out of your car. Public transportation, walking, it's very important for you and the planet.

Absolutely. I hear you, Jeff. If people are listening to this show, they're fascinated by what you have to say. They want to reach out to you and connect with you online, however. So how can people find you?

Well, our website is namx.com n We've got a lot of information there, and I love just educating people about mushrooms. So it's very deep. And we've got a lot of really good slideshows that I put together, too, so people can come and see how our products are made and see the farms that we use to produce our mushrooms and things like that. And then if they're looking for some product on the retail side, they can come to realmushrooms.com great.

Awesome. Thank you so much for coming onto this show. I enjoyed this discussion so much because I'm just fascinated by mushrooms and I just, I'm so eager to learn more about mushrooms. So thank you for educating the public and as well as myself. So huge appreciation. Jeff Chilton there.

You're very welcome. And Cribbin, if you need any advice on your mushroom growing, just let me know. Use me as a resource.

Awesome. Appreciate that, Jeff. Take care.

Take care. Bye.

We hope you enjoyed this episode of the Gut Health Gurus Podcast with the amazing Jeff Chilton. Now guys, your support means the world to us. So do head to your favorite podcasting app and leave us a five star review and a kind comment because this is how we get our message out to the rest of the world. So we really appreciate your support guys. Nourish Me Organics, who's the sponsor of this podcast, has just launched an amazing range of medicinal mushroom products from Life Cycle. So do head to www.nourishmeorganics.com and use the code Magic Mushroom for 10% off nourishment organization. Organics also have an amazing support group called the Nourish Me Organics Gut Health Guru. So do head to Facebook, join the group and get connected with amazing support of like minded people who are absolutely crazy about Gut Health. Until next time.