Kirsten and Christopher Shockey on Fermenting Vegetables and Cider Making

This episode is brought to you by Nourish Me Organics, proud partner of Mason Tops, who make a wonderful beginner friendly vegetable fermentation kit. For more information, head to www.nourishmeorganics.com and use the Codeword Podcast at checkout for 10% off your Mason Pups products.

Hey, guys. Crib and govender from the Gut Health Gurus podcast. I've got a background in food science. My colleague next to me has got a background in psychology and with an interest in the gut and the brain. And today we have one of those rock star couples in the fermentation world. And I'm extremely excited to introduce you to Kirsten and Christopher Shockey. I just want to make sure I look down at my noses to make sure I get the names right. Did I pronounce that properly?

Absolutely.

Awesome. Firstly, Kirsten and Christopher, welcome to the show.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you so much for inviting us.

Our pleasure. And what we like to do is to set the scene for our audience at the start of the podcast. And we always ask the question, who is Kirsten and Christopher Shockey?

Who are you?

Let's see. We live on a homestead and we ferment things.

One later. We've been married over 30 years, four kids, two grandkids.

Wow.

Yeah. And like Kirsten said, we moved to this farm. It's with the land that my son purchased next TO it's about 56 acres or 23 hectares, mostly perennials, trees, orchards, things like that, pasture land. And tell you, kind of give you a hint. We have more kitchens in our house than bathrooms.

Amazing.

We're passionate about real food. We're passionate about the planet. Yeah.

And flavor.

And we have a fermentation cave too.

Which we have his and hers fermentation caves, actually.

Wow. And this is a really interesting dynamic because normally it's the two of us and there's only like one guest, but.

Today.

We'Re going to new territories here because we're interviewing a couple. So I'm really excited to explore that dynamics. That's pretty cool. And so, Kirsten, we'll start with you. So what's your background in terms of, you know, your journey into fermentation? What were you doing before you discovered it and how did it all start for you?

Well, I think my journey into fermentation really started with raising my kids. Like Christopher said, we have four of them and at some point in the whole when they were young, it occurred to me that I really wanted them to know where their food comes from. And how it's grown and that being part of their education. And so moving out here was a big, big piece to that. And so we got goats and cows and chickens and had big gardens, trees, and all of those things that produce food. And then you have a lot of it and you have to figure out how to preserve it. And so I was a cheesemaker first because of all the milk. And, yeah, it was just a very, very organic journey. And then in about 1999, my mother gave us a crock that was already filled and it was in a box and it was already bubbling away. And so that was. That was sort of the first time we moved vegetables into the scene. And honestly, for years, we just fermented sauerkraut. It didn't occur to me or Christopher, really, anybody to take it to where we've taken it now. So I think that's. It was very organic.

Great. And how about the hubby next to you? So how did your journey start, Christopher? Was it parallel to Kirsten's?

You know, so I was trained in technology, so I worked several careers, but one career in high tech with Hewlett Packard. And so we bought the farm while I was basically traveling five days a week or something like that. So, you know, my role then was to try to pay for the farm. And then in 2006, I left and tried to chase some dreams instead around education and farming and food and things like that. So I think that's when I really kind of kicked in to play more of an active role in this. Kirsten has the better palate, she's the better cook. I'm happy just to eat everything that she makes. So I'm chief taste tester and things like that. I take all the humble positions willingly in this whole thing. And the exception is the latest books around hard cider, and I'm the cider maker. So in that one, we reversed roles and she was tasting my ciders and I was making things.

So. Wow, that's so exciting. Cool. And so, you guys, it seems that there was this interest with Kirsten story around, I guess, your food. What drove that interest for you to want to explore, to grow your own food and start a farmstead?

For me, like I said, a lot of it was raising the kids and their health. But also in our area, we have a really dynamic small farm community. And as we had the. Suddenly we were on land and it occurred to us, wow, we should be doing something with it. And we really got interested in permaculture and biodynamics and as Christopher mentioned, he was traveling a lot. And I think in all of that, there was a little bit of hope that you could have a very tiny farm and it could pay for the income of a family of six, and we could all just sort of hearken back to some old kind of agrarian economy. But, I mean, that is just not the reality. I think that was in the mix, and that's part of why we started that farmstead kraut business is we just. We were looking for a way to work together, and food just became huge passion. And partly because of the environmental implications of growing, you know, food right and growing it without chemicals and just being part of that and helping people learn about that and also seeing where the health of so many people is going. Food is the number one thing that that could help. I mean, we are what we eat.

Yeah, totally. And that's. That's the philosophy that we, James and I, stand behind, that food is just so important to get right. And the farming aspects. We've had Dr. Zach Bush as a previous guest. I'm not sure if you've come across his work.

And he.

He spoke so eloquently about regenerative farming and, you know, improving our farming practices not only for our health, but for our planet. So really, what both of you are doing to be an example that people could follow. And I guess you wrote this fantastic book called Fermented Vegetables, which is one of the most popular groups in our Facebook group, our Gut Health Gurus Facebook group. And we did pose to the group various questions about you guys coming on. They're all super excited to hear from you. But they did ask a lot of questions related to the book, which we'll really dig into as we progress in the podcast. So, James, any questions at this point?

Yeah, well, I was just going to ask about your general thoughts on the health implications of the way you guys eat and grow your own food. What are your thoughts there? Because I think there are at least myself. I think a lot of people would love to be able to live on a farm, eat everything natural and grow it themselves. But what have you observed in. In terms of health? Well, I think when we moved here, we had our time where we were vegans and time when we were vegetarians. And then when we moved to the farm, I think I was just always hungry. I was eating a lot of vegetarian patties, but I was just always hungry. So I think you just have to keep listening to your body and figuring out what's working for you and what's not. I Know, for Kirsten, on our fourth child, she got anemic, and so for her, iron became a really big thing, so she had to change her diet as well, you know, So I think our bodies change, and I think we have to just listen to that. I think the biggest thing for me is not to be dogmatic about it. I mean, it's easy just to get your identity tied to one of these things and that then you can't listen to your body when you say, nope, but I'm a vegan or I'm a vegetarian or I'm this thing or that just kind of where I was coming from, I had my identity tied to it. And so it was hard to say, oh, maybe I need to eat a little bit of meat now. So the farm will let you at least raise things. Know that if you're going to take the life of an animal, you know, to raise that animal humanely. So I think it's a real gift. But if not, you know, finding sources of your food, local farmers, they. They need consumers that will come back every week and buy their food. You know that it's a symbiotic relationship. There's a lot of young farmers out there who are trying to do the right thing, and they just need consumers to say, I'm going to shift from the supermarket to, you know, my little farm, and I'm going to buy from you every week. And that's really what they need. So I think we've got each other, if we just find each other.

Yeah, that's such an excellent point, Christopher, because I guess in our society, we feel that we're almost powerless and the powers that be control the things that we eat or maybe the pharmaceutical products that we take or consumer goods. But the consumer is extremely powerful because you have the ability to shape industries with your wallet. So what you're so eloquently explaining to our audience is that if we can support these young farmers, these farmers out there trying to do the right thing in terms of sustainability, in terms of our footprint on the planet, impacting climate change, things like that, by simply making the buying decisions correctly or justly, we can really make a change. 100% agree with you. And it's so brave for you guys to actually take that step because. And as James mentioned, I would love to have that opportunity. And I've tried. I've started out a little veggie patch in the backyard trying to grow my vegetables and putting some perennials and going to the farmer's market. I think we have a farmer's market once a month. So we go down there once a month to buy our stuff or go to a health food store trying to do the right thing. So what's some tips that you guys have for someone that's really burning inside and wanting to do the right thing in terms of our planet, our health, sustainability? What's some kind of tips that they could start with?

Well, I think to kind of continue the thread that Christopher started, which was we were eating sort of low on the food chain as vegetarians and even vegans for a while and we always continued that we didn't eat loads and loads of meat, but we grew our own. But with the next, with this book that's coming out next, we really explored beans and grains and especially things like tempeh and miso where we can take these grains. Step further and you know, a lot of what's coming out is we need fiber in our diet and we need to eat a little bit lighter on the planet. And so, I mean, we're doing the same thing. It's funny how we're swinging back towards eating not no meat, but definitely less, less of it. And you know, really excited about, about what beans and grains can do. And so as a tip, I would say exploring what local beans you have availability of. You know, it doesn't really matter which beans. Find those local sources of high quality protein.

And just tracing back where your food comes from, trying to find the human responsible, which gets to the commercialization that you were talking about. I think eating less processed foods is always good for everybody. So trying to get more whole foods in your diet, you know, those can be cheaper in the long run. And it's just, it just takes longer, you know, to incorporate that. We get so caught on being convenience of convenience food. But really, you know, a lot of the fermentated, fermented foods can save you a lot of time when you're cooking too. They're kind of a convenience, but they're a whole food convenience. So things like that. And then, you know, you can grow things like you were saying in your backyard, you can grow things in very small places. Also we work with people who are putting in gardens in cities, you know, vacant lots anywhere where land's not being used and people getting together. So when neighbors combine, it's a wonderful social experiment. You know, you get to see people that neighbors that you never see because everyone's in their house and tucked away. So I think that's a great way to know people as you're making, you know, digging in the dirt.

Great.

Coming together.

Yeah. Is there any one that's a good one to start with for a novice? A good vegetable?

Let's see. It's getting to be your win. You're coming into fall now.

Right into fall, exactly.

Yeah.

So root crops for you. Root crops for you right now.

I think the greens, greens are really, for a novice gardener, greens are easy. Good start. Tomatoes don't ferment the best, but they are a really easy plant to go grow. Peppers ferment really well. Yeah, those can grow nicely in a pot. So if you're, you know, just have a pot, grow a couple pepper plants and in the right, in the right conditions, those, those are even perennial. They'll keep growing for you.

Cool. I think that's a pretty, pretty good segue to go into, I guess the first part of our exploration, which is your book, Fermented Vegetables. So what inspired you guys to write that book?

I was lazy. Yeah. And we're also bad drug dealers. That would be the two gadgets. So we were at farmers markets, we were selling our fermented vegetables. So we were in business doing that. We built a commercial kitchen onto the farmhouse with the his and her fermenting caves. And so we were producing them. And it's a hard. The next time you're at the farmer's market and you see somebody you know selling fermented vegetables, no, that is a hard way to make a living because you're doing all that work to make it and then you're keeping it cold and you're at the market. And sometimes people would come to, we'd have nine or 10 varieties at one time. And sometimes they come and they graze and they say, oh my God, this is the best ever. And then they walk away. And I'd say, it's for sale.

Please.

Come back and buy them. I don't want to take them home. And so, you know, one of those times where. And as we were working 12, 15 hour days, we were eating terribly.

Right.

Because we didn't have time to eat well as we're making all this food for other people. And so our diets were going to. And so one day I just told Kirsten. And the other problem we had was that they can be kind of expensive. Right. You know, and so you get hooked, your body starts craving them. Right. So the microbiome changes and now that's what you crave. But you know, they're $12, $10 a jar. And so we get people that would come and they say, oh my God. I love your lemon dill and your perdido, and I just don't have enough money today. And so being bad drug dealers, we'd say, well, here, here's a recipe. Just go make your own. And they would look at us like, you're giving us the recipe. And I was like, dude, this has been made for 4,000 years. This isn't our recipe.

Well, I think the other thing really that was going on was that folks were curious. It was just that when we were at the market, it wasn't quite hip yet, but it was just the beginning of sort of that beginning. Moments of understanding, wow, our guts might have something to do with our health. You know, it's actually hard to realize how recent that is that we really started getting that. And so we'd have more and more people ask for classes. So we just started having classes out at the farm. And that when we did, well, Sandor's first book was out, so the Big Art of Fermentation wasn't out yet.

And.

People were just. It wasn't enough for them. They needed more hand holding. Because there's nothing. There's nothing about the way we've all been raised in this culture that says it's okay to leave something on your counter and then a week or two later stick your fork in it. I mean, just drummed into us to refrigerate it. Refrigerate it. And so people, especially those first years, need a lot of hand holding. So part of that first book was that idea of kind of bringing them along in a way that felt safe.

So I said, we should write a book and get out of the business. And she said, I'm already working on a book, so you write it. And I started. I wrote about 100 pages. I had no recipes because I didn't develop the recipes. Kirsten did. So I had stories about Captain Cook and I had all these segues. And I came to her, I said, baby, I got a cookbook that has no recipes. So then we started writing them, and then we ended up with like 64 recipes or 64 vegetables, lots of recipes. So that's how I began. And then we were actually self publishing it when Story picked it up and we added the meal section and other things to it. So it was quite an evolution. But it's really just trying to get out of the business and teach people how to do it for themselves, so we didn't have to make it for them anymore.

I mean, making fermented vegetables on a commercial scale would be an absolute nightmare. I mean, the property, proper stuff, no shortcuts, you know, a proper ferment.

We even had people telling us, wow, this is just like homemade. And it is. And I was thinking, well, because it is, there is no machine at my house doing this for me.

Yeah, that's it. Yeah. We used American made ceramic crocks. They were 10 gallons, so they're over £100 when they're full of sauerkraut. And you know, we would have maybe 12, 15 of those going at one time. So it was, it was pretty intense that.

And want to see it shipped, you know, to make it, we live in such a small area to make enough to actually make a living to start shipping it. Because we were, we were selling a lot here and doing quite well, but it still wasn't an income in the same way that, you know, you would need. And so when it came to that point of shipping it, we were like, let's teach it and have everybody make their own so that it's a local product for everyone.

Yeah, I love that transition. Now, Kirsten, I've got a burning question for you. If you could go back to your memory banks and that storage inside the brain to the point where you concocted that first recipe. So describe the process of actually make what firstly, what is it? And then how did you go about developing it?

Well, I think so you've also got to go back in time to when the Internet really only had recipes for sauerkraut that were the old school ones of shred cabbage packet, layer it with salt. And so I think that my first recipes were simply, let's add something to the sauerkraut. But the first time I really veered off of that was when a friend of mine who was a, who grew seeds, had all this, this winter squash because she grew seeds for a living. And that was the actual food. This organic squash was the byproduct. And you know, she had this pile of squash and she said, what? What? Can you do anything with that? And I had no idea. So I plugged in all kinds of search terms. You know, can fermenting squash kill you? And I didn't understand the science completely at the time, that, that the microbes aren't picky, they'll, they'll, they're equal opportunity carbohydrate eaters. And so the science will work on a squash as well as a parsnip, as well as a fennel bulb or, you know, fill in the blank. And so at that time it was, it was completely, I felt like, it was really rogue for me to just try to ferment the squash. And so what I did is I tried. I ran it through the grater and thought, well, chipotle pepper sounds like it would go nicely with squash. And so I mixed it with chipotle pepper and just, you know, the colors matched, and I thought it would be, you know, nice and smoky. And at the same time, I cut some of the squash and tried squash pickles, which turned out awful. And, yeah, I would say that's. That's sort of what happened. And then as far as recipe creation in general, I think I really like to. I moved around a lot as a child and ate a lot of different food. And I like that whole fusion concept of, like, putting things together that maybe shouldn't go together and seeing what happens. That's a big part of my process. And sometimes that just sort of, you know, comes to me, like I pluck it, pluck it out of the air, and then I think, huh?

And that's what I love about the art of fermentation is that, you know, it's such a creative process. I mean, it's so exciting to firstly be in control of your own food, but then really taking it to places that, you know, sometimes never been done before with fusions or flavor creations or. Or cuisine combinations. The question I often get asked, I guess, from newbie fermenters, is how do you work out the right salt ratio for the chosen vegetable that you have? Is there a rule of thumb that you work with?

My rule of thumb is 1.5%. Salt by weight of the vegetable seems to be the sweet spot. With some things like peppers or things that are going to be a condiment that you know you're going to eat less of. And you need that brighter saltiness. Of course, you can take that up. Commercial ferments are often anywhere between 3 and 5%. It works, I think, from 0.9 to 10%. But 10% is kind of crazy for a vegetable especially. So, you know, with playing around with it over the years, I found that that sweet spot is 1.5. You get much lower than 1.5. And so what the salt does is it hardens the cell walls on the pectin so it keeps the crisp. It helps control the fermentation. With. Especially when it gets warm, it sort of helps slow it down, and that's when you would need more salt. But so under that 1.5%, you start getting softer ferments and all of that. And so that. That seems to be where I start and sometimes I add more because honestly, salt is also part of the flavor.

And how about if the, I guess you're fermenting something like a tomato that has a higher water. Water content, do you adjust the salt based on the water content?

You know when something like that, it's more based on the sugar content. In my mind, the sugar that, in that tomato that's gonna cause the fermentation to be so much more active, so much more quickly. And also that that sugar, the yeasts are going to want to move in and also consume that sugar. And so the idea is to get more lactobacillus on board before the yeasts come in and really add their funk.

Yeah, absolutely. And how about something like a, say a cucumber Dill pickles are incredibly popular. Is it the same concept?

It's the same concept for sure. But everything in a cucumber there's so many enzymes that want to soften it. So that's one of the few things that, that's the highest salt ratio that I do. And on that one I do go up to 5% if I want to save it. If you want to eat it quick pickle and just ferment it for a few days and eat it right away, then you don't need to go to that higher percent. But if you really want to say these summer pickles I want to be able to eat in the winter, then that salt ratio has to be higher to keep that crisp. And then the other thing that works really well is if you know you're going to save them, just ferment them for three to four days, just bring them to that half sour level, put them in the fridge, make sure they're completely covered in brine and they will continue to slowly ferment in the fridge. Instead of bringing them to their full ferment and then putting them into the fridge.

Wow, there's some fantastic nuggets right there. So you're thinking about, I guess, the flavor elements in terms of the saltiness. Then you're also balancing out the textural aspects, the crispness, the sogginess, the pectin setting. And then you're trying to selectively control lactobacilli and other good acid forming bacteria versus yeast. So it seems like it's such a balancing act to get that right.

It doesn't always go right.

I guess that's why a lot of people are looking for help to get things right. But it seems like it's almost a feeling or it just comes with experience. In actually working with these products over time. So what's the most common source of. I guess you described it as funk or spoilage or off taste or visible growth of mold or yeast. What seems to be the most common cause of that brine?

Things above the brine line.

Oxygen. Just where the oxygen can get in. I mean, there's two kinds of funk, because there's the funk that it's like that it's got groove, it tastes good. It doesn't taste like it's just flat vinegar. You know, it's that funk that you're looking for in your ferment, that little something. Right. And then there's the funk where it's like funky, and that's the oxygen and the yeast. And then.

So sometimes we teach little kids how to do fermentation, and we dress up as superheroes.

I'm Brian, who's Fermento?

She's Brian, and I'm Fermento. And so when we're little kids and we don't wear, like, the full leotard, but we do have capes, like any superhero, we each have capes. And so we tell them, submerge in brine. Conquers evil every time. And we just try to get them, and we explain they're like fishes, and fishes like to be underneath in the water, and they're not like birds. The birds come down. We don't want the birds. We just want the fishes. And the kids get it. Okay. It's like, I need to keep all this stuff where fishes would live in the brine, and I don't want them up above that brine line. And they get it. And then we teach parents the same kind of thing that works for them, too. So just keeping everything submerged and the brine knocks out so many of the problems that people have, because otherwise, if something pokes up, it becomes a vector for mold, and, you know, then you get a whole new thing going on. But otherwise.

Otherwise things that don't taste as good, really.

Yeah.

Thrive in the oxygen. Yeast need oxygen.

Yes.

I mean, they're both fungus.

Yes.

But keeping it all under is huge first step.

Absolutely. And I love how Christopher kind of simplified that whole process to make it really accessible and easy. Almost like from a child's perspective. If the child can get it, then surely then the rest get it as well. So just keep it. Keep it submerged, Keep it under, because there's, I guess, limited amounts of oxygen when it's submerged underneath. So that's such a great tip. And the other common question we get asked is, I guess it's related to the book. So a lot of people go out, they buy the book, Fermented vegetables, they're following the recipes to the T. How do they adjust those recipes to be suited for Australian conditions? And that's a loaded question because Australia is a massive continent with huge variations in climate and temperature right across the whole place. But what's some tips that people could deal with? Because that's a common question.

Well, salt is a huge controller. So if you are. The nice thing about vegetable fermentation versus, say, some of the bean ferments that, you know, we're talking about in the next book is there's really a wide range of, of what the Lactobacillus will accept and still do their job. But heat is a huge, is a huge game changer. So if you're in an extra warm climate, adding a little salt helps bring that fermentation down to a slower pace. And you might be wondering, why would you want it to be a little bit slower? And the answer is, because Lactobacillus isn't just one thing that happens. There's a whole sort of succession, sort of a relay race, if you will, of bacteria that make this ferment happen. And if you can slow it down, each of those types will have their chance. So the first one that moves in, its whole job is to take this base, kind of neutral environment of the vegetable and start bringing that acidity level down. And so as it brings it down, it actually kind of dies out because it makes it too acidic for its own self, but the next one moves in and when, when it's really a fast ferment, you get a real flat, sour flavor. Whereas when you can slow that down, and sometimes, like I said, salt is a good way to do that. Also just finding, you know, a spot in the house that's a little cooler.

Will help, which is getting harder, isn't it? I mean, you guys have had some heat. I mean, I think the whole world's kind of looking at Australia in the last few summers to see, you know, what's going on. And so we work with people who say it's so much hotter than it used to be. So it affects the environment to ferment in and it also infects, affects the plants and when they're going to come in. So I think all of us are going to have to learn to eat things as plants change, you know, because the heat and the environment, we're going to start eating things that maybe we're Used to, because now they grow in the heat, you know, in our environment, that's changing. So just being willing to adapt to that. I think the other one is just if you had a bad fermentation experience when you were a kid or, you know, growing up, forget that this is not that canned sauerkraut that, you know, maybe you got in school. So many people would come to the farmers market with their little kids, and they were thinking we were selling jams or something, and they moved to the point of no return because they were too close to back out gracefully. And as the kids were just eating sauerkrauts going down the line, the parents would say, oh, no, you're not going to like that. You know, that's the pickly stuff. You're not, as the kids are just shoveling it in. And so I think just, you know, unlearning what maybe if you've had bad fermented vegetables, tastes like, and knowing that this is a completely different. It's not a commercial canned thing that you experience and giving it a try again, you know, and. Yeah, and even if you don't like it, letting your kids, you know, unjudgmental, try it too. Because, I mean, those little guts, the sooner they can have that kind of food, you know, the better. Those little gut microbiomes are really forming during that time, you know, if they can have good foods, that's just. That's just wonderful.

So that's an amazing advice right there. And I just want to finish off one loop before we jump onto some exploration into hard ciders, because I'm fascinated to have that conversation. So just. So make sure we get this crystal clear. If there are. If the temperature is higher. So we're coming into a hot spell. We put more salt into the ferment to slow it down. And what's the upper limit? Around 5%, you think?

Oh, yeah. I don't think you need to go that high. Like I said, I'm thinking of my own recipes, which are in that 1.5%. So try it at 2%. Just take it up a little bit. 3%. And then the other piece that I was going to say too, with that is, so if the recipe says, you know, 10 to 14 days, start tasting it at three days and four days. You know, really watch it. The beautiful thing of fermentation is that you can get into it while it's fermenting, and you're not going to cause a big problem. You know, you can. You can taste it as it's going. When I'm teaching people, I say make it in a jar so you can see what's going on and you can watch it. And as the color changes and all of that, you can see where it's at. And so that would be the other thing. And especially if you really don't want to raise the salt level because some people are concerned about that, just realize that that's going to be done a lot quicker. And so watch it, taste it and just, you know, trust your gut.

Right. Love the pun. I think that's amazing advice because, you know, even if you're following a recipe, because these wild fermentations are so much at the mercy is a strong word, but it's so much influenced by environmental factors that that's the go to advice that I give to people as well, is taste often and stop that fermentation when it's actually good for your palate. So I love that you resonate with that train of thought as well.

Yeah. And I mean, it's like you said, there's so much that's out of your control, like what bacteria are on there, how they're going to react, how much sugar is in that cabbage versus the cabbage you got three weeks ago. They could be entirely different. And then the leather. So you. So you've got. Yeah.

A lot of variables.

And trusting.

Works almost every time. Isn't that amazing? Like, all those variables and yet if we get out of its way, it.

Just kind of works.

It's mother Nature. Right. And one little, I guess, side exploration before we move on. What's your thoughts on using starter cultures.

Especially with vegetables? I don't see. I don't see that they're necessary because it's all just right there and ready to go. But there are other things like, you know, miso, tempeh, natto, yogurt, and on those places, it's really important. I know a lot of people want to use wild cultures on those and it's fun to play around with it. I mean, I do so too, but I feel like that on vegetables that they're all there and they're just ready to go as soon as you give them that environment.

Bacteria are pretty strong, like the lactobacilla family. We've done classes in very conventional places in the United States with very conventional produce. And we're thinking, I don't know if this is going to work. But even then they seem to come through. Now with fruits and yeast, sometimes that's a difference. But I think with fermented vegetables, those veggies should have what you need. And if they don't, you probably don't want to eat the vegetable anyway.

And so just to wrap up that loop, what's the. The top five recommendations for vegetables? So we'll keep the fruits out of it. Purely vegetables for a novice to start with.

I mean, cabbage works.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Carrots.

Carrots are a good starter. Starter ferment.

Beets are.

People love. People love beets. Beets can be a little challenging because they're so sugary, but cut in half with cabbage, I think a pepper paste if you want to make hot sauce. Peppers are a good starter. Root vegetables work really nicely. Radishes, because they're nice and juicy. And then onions are also wonderful because they give you a whole different ferment. They're easy to ferment and they stay crisp. And you don't get onion breath if you eat it. Fermented onion. And they're a really nice starter ferment.

And how about potatoes? Is it possible to ferment potatoes?

You know, sweet potatoes ferment beautifully raw. And I admit that I keep thinking I need to try it. And I have yet, yet to ferment a potato. Like just a white, starchy potato.

Me. Me.

Yeah. I heard, though, that there's some people that ferment them for a day or two and then make them in the french fries. So there's always more to be learned. But sweet potatoes, I can assure you, ferment beautifully.

Cool. I thought people would love to experiment with that, I think. And what's the. I guess a couple of very unconventional ones that people, I guess, might not think to ferment that you've done before.

Jerusalem artichoke ferments nicely.

Sunchokes, basil, and, you know, any of the herbs. People don't think that you can ferment herbs, but you can.

Yeah, yeah. Because. And it's wonderful. All the herbs because. Because they, you know, if you dried basil or any of these volatile compounds will go away and they don't have that same flavor. But when you ferment them and you have that in your refrigerator off season or when you can't get to the store or whatever, it's just like using the fresh. So that's.

That's amazing. I just thought of another question that we commonly get asked. What is the, I guess, the time frame for fermenting? Is it a couple of days or a few weeks? What's the, I guess, the rule of thumb, aside from tasting and knowing?

It's back to that, you know, Environmental issue and you know, how much sugar is in it and how much heat is on it can really change it. But I would say most ferments in, you know, say a liter or so will take anywhere from, you know, five to seven days in winter conditions, maybe a few more if your house is really chilly to three to seven days in summer. And sometimes honestly two days, you know, it's just, it's very variable.

Wow. Because you'll read, you'll read some recipes for like sauerkraut and they'll say like six weeks sometimes.

And you know, that's, that's what I was gonna say too. And that's the beginning of like it's, it's done, but then there's a whole range. It depends on how those ferment will keep going until all the carbohydrates of the been consumed and then they'll die off. And so it's where in that ferment that you want to stop it.

The thing is too, some of those old recipes were for big, you know, big crocks. And so, you know, when we were doing 10 gallon crocks in controlled environment, about 60 degrees, we would have sauerkrauts that would go over a month before they're ready because it was volume and temperature low. Big volume, low temperature, longer time to ferment versus, you know, one liter jar on your countertop in the summer is going to go really quickly by comparison. So if you think about that, temperature and size matters.

I hear you. The other thing is I think maybe there's some real purists out there that go to that n degree to develop some flavor profiles that can only be achieved with that curing process. So I guess the general rule is it's pretty quick. But there are, I guess some exceptions where some purists are going to that extra mile to do additional steps to make it taste.

Yeah. And it gets more and more sour as you go. Yeah, that's the big flavor change or the biggest, most obvious one. And then the other thing is, like I said, more and more is predigested for you. So it gets to the point like if you're eating it ready but fairly young, not as much is gonna be already processed by the microbes.

Yeah.

But if too long, then your probiotics are going away because they've done their job, they've made it acidic, they. There's nothing else for them to do, so they just die off.

Good point. Excellent. Seawater, is that something you've tried in the past?

Seawater?

Seawater. I Haven't.

We're a few hours, three hours from the coast. So we've done a lot with seaweed.

Okay.

Local harvested seaweed, which we did some. Instead of a kimchi, we called it a sichi seaweed in it. It's wonderful.

People that didn't want pepper. Not everybody likes spicy things. Turns out.

There'S a lot of ocean plants you can use. Absolutely.

That's so cool. It'd be a huge amount of umami, I think, coming through a seaweed.

I think from a brine perspective. Let's see what they're for. Percent I think so it would be a pretty salty brine.

Good for cucumbers, I mean.

And the other thing just to think about, honestly, is all the microplastics that are in the ocean now these days. I mean, it's sad to say. Yeah, that's. That's something you might want to think about. If someone's going to use seawater. I'd say maybe some kind of filtration piece a little bit.

Good point. I mean, pollution and whatnot.

Yeah.

We're pretty much coming up to top, but I've got to explore a little bit further, if you wouldn't mind, just on the hard ciders and then just then wrapping up with your new book and what's happening there. So, Christopher, tell us about what is a hard cider and how do you go about what's the basics of making it? I've never tried it before.

I think it's only your country and our country that call it hard cider. This podcast, we can say, well, hard cider is cider that's fermented to alcohol. So everywhere else in the world they're going to call it cider. We can say we're right. But all it is is we're taking the sugars and converting them to alcohol. Ethanol. That's what we're doing. Instead of using bacteria, we're using yeasts. But the same kind of thing. The yeast love to eat those sugars and go to alcohol. And we're just controlling.

Everybody loves sugar.

Everybody loves sugar.

Yeah.

That'S what we're doing. So we did. I've got. In my cave, I've got 262 bottles right now and maybe 100 gallons waiting to be bottled. So we've been doing experimentation now for a long time. Sometimes I forget the right words because by the time you've been in research all day, it's just. You can't write anymore. I think we did maybe 40 different kinds. But the interesting thing Was. So I'm a trained cider maker and you're watching ph and you're watching all these things. Kirsten's not. So she was going out and capturing yeast off of this flour and inoculating this and then making. You can't do that. You're not using commercial yeast. And she's like, yeast is a yeast. They're going to eat the sugar. So we have this huge chapter on wild fermentations and really beyond just what was on the apple to say, no, no, yeast come from the blossoms too. So let's capture what's blossoming right now and do that. So I think we pushed. We even found a way to push hard cider to a different place in this book too.

Say, for instance, I'm going to. Tomorrow I'm going to start having a crack at making this. Where do I start? What do I need?

Well, this is great because it's the fall, right. So apples are on.

Yeah, Absolutely beautiful.

Yeah. So this is spring here. So we've got six months to worry. Think about this. But you're there. Yeah, yeah. So best thing is, you just need to get some. If you can get some fresh cider, someone that's just fresh pressed it and it hasn't been pasteurized, then you can try to just make that with the yeast that are naturally on that juice. Basically put it in a jug, put some kind of air gap on it and leave it alone. Is the simplest possible recipe if it's very fresh juice that hasn't been sprayed, because the yeast that are naturally on those apples will convert it to alcohol. Mostly we have to use commercial yeast because mostly the juice that you can buy at a store, at least in the States, has been pasteurized and so those microbes are gone. You can use beer making yeast. So there's a lot of winemaking yeast that you can use that imparts different flavors depending on what you want. But it's as simple as getting a packet of brewing yeast, getting a jug of juice, pouring the yeast in the jug, giving it a swirl, putting a cap on it, you're done.

You'd like to say at night, no air.

Yeah, just an airlock that has a little water gap. Something. Because what you want, you want the CO2 to come out, but you don't want any ambience to come in, especially those little acetobacters, because that's what vinegar, you know, it naturally wants to go to alcohol and then vinegar. So your job as a cider maker is to stop it at the alcohol before the vinegar takes place. The number one way to do that is to keep the air out.

How long does it take to make it?

If you're just doing, you know, like a 4 liter jug and maybe 60 degrees to 70 degrees, that could go in 10 days to Fahrenheit. Sorry, 60 to 70 degrees Fahrenheit, that can go to maybe two weeks. It's gonna. There's a device called a hydrometer that measures the specific gravity.

Yes.

And so you can measure your juice beforehand and then afterwards. And that will tell you if all the sugars have turn to alcohol. Sweet tart apples will give you somewhere in the 7, 6 to 8% alcohol range of cider. Australia's got some great ciders right now.

Wow. I'm going to give that a crack. I'm going to try that. I'm going to go to the farmer's market and grab myself some apples. And I'm pretty sure the apple guy also sells unpasteurized cider.

Perfect.

Some of that. So how much, what's that ratio of that Almost like a back slop of cider. Do I use percentage wise?

Yeah. So if you're going to, if you can get fresh cider that hasn't been pasteurized, that's all you need and you're good to go. And that, what I would do is put an air gap on it, a water gap on it and just let that go. And you should start seeing bubbles as well.

Apple juice with it. Yeah, yeah.

Unpasteurized juice. If. If your guy sells it and you ask him if it's unpasteurized. If it's unpasteurized, it still has all the yeasts in there and it's good to go.

Oh, I'm with you now.

Yes. Buy a little packet of like champagne yeast, which is cost just a few cents and then you put that in.

Yeah, I'm with you. Say you literally put in the juice with the airlock because it's got the natural yeast already in there. And so we leave that for a couple of weeks on the warm bench top. Does it have to be in a dark cupboard or does the bench top.

Not really, no. Just out of direct sunlight. But otherwise, I mean it's like the simplest recipe possible, isn't it? You bring home a jug of juice, put it here, put a fire trap on top of way too drink alcohol. I mean it's just mind blowing. Now if it doesn't work, then those microbes aren't still there. So I would give it a few days and if you don't see any bubbles, let's say in five or six days. Then I would pitch some yeast in there, you know, so you can.

And how much headspace should we leave in that bottle? Does it matter?

Yeah, you want as little headspace as possible.

Yeah.

So a couple of inches is about all I would probably do. And yeah, it's just. It's brilliant to have your own.

I'm so excited.

I'm going to give this a crack.

I'm going to try this. Do you have a question?

All good.

Good. Now we're going into time. Now I've got to finish off by, I guess, giving you the opportunities to talk about your new book. So you've got how many books? Excuse my ignorance. So you've written. This is your third book that's coming out.

Yeah. In fact, we just got the advanced copy. Oh, wow.

Miso.

Yeah.

This is one of four in existence in the world at the moment.

Wow, that's cool. Yeah.

So it's miso, tempe, natto and other tasty ferments.

It's 400 pages, so it's fat. That.

That's so cool. This is cool products there, Miso making.

Yeah. And it follows the same process as all of our books, which is there's, if I can find a picture, there's step by step where you've got, you know, just really those basic steps with the photos that go with it and followed by, you know, recipes for the ferment and then recipes of how to. How to use the ferment.

Cool.

That's always been really important to us that people eat these things, you know, find ways to eat them. Because we have people that come up to the farmer's market and say, I'm just eating my ferment out of the jar and my husband's making fun of me, I need him to start eating and what can I do, you know? And so having recipes that just easily incorporate it into your family's diet is really important because then it becomes simple and then you're going to start experimenting with other ones and that's how it goes.

So true. I think miso. Fortunately, miso and natto spores, I think we talked about it a little bit earlier, so they're pretty easy to accessible. Here in Australia, tempeh is a hard one to get a hold of. So I guess what's some tips that people buy the book? How do they source those spores that they need, these molds?

You're so much closer to Indonesia to get the spores. You would think you would think it.

Would be easier, but Australia's a hugely. You know, it's almost like a fortress nation where the so strict to get.

Things in just need a strong wind out of the north.

I found this producer in Indonesia that can supply the spores to us. He's just telling me that import laws are just too strict for him to even consider it, because I think he's tried in the past to get it just to export it from Indonesia. Here.

There'S a producer called Tempe Shore out of California. If coming from the United States is easier.

Yeah.

Yeah. And then there's one top cultures, I think it's called out of Belgium.

Okay, look at those.

Not that the Indonesian isn't more authentic and you wouldn't prefer that, and it's kosher, but if for some reason your import laws make the US or Belgium easier, then you've got a better chance.

Or when we come to do the Australian tour, we'll stick some in our bag.

Well, if you guys ever come to Melbourne, you know, you're welcome to come and spend some time with us. It's an open invite and happy to show you guys around because you clearly have lovely, beautiful people doing a great service to the rest of the world. And so the book teaches, the new book teaches us how to make miso, tempeh and natto. And is there any, I guess, any challenges with making these products that a beginner might run into?

Well, with miso, you also need to make koji. And koji is growing a fungus, as per, on a substrate, which traditionally is rice. So there's a whole chapter on koji and amazake, which can actually take you down the road of sake too, if you're interested in that. But the wonderful thing for miso is it's probably in Australia too, it's fairly easy to buy premade koji rice. And that's the rice that will get the whole thing started. And if you do that, it's just a great way to feel good and have a really positive result is just buy the koji, cook your beans, put them all together, you know, press them into your container and wait. Because the difference with all the ferments in this book, because you're growing fungus, because you're growing mold, your parameters are much more narrow on your temperature and humidity. And so we also have a whole chapter where we talk about incubation. I think in my mind, as you know, we talk to people about this book, that's going to be their biggest challenge, is getting their incubation system going. And once you know what works for you and how you can control either your oven or a heating pad or you know, a sous vide, actually water immersion circulators, my favorite which is. But once you can control that, then these ferments are also not very hard. But that first, that first bit of kind of grappling with what you are, what's your system is. And like I said, my favorite is a water bath. And we show people how to make their own with an aquarium thermometer. And so it's really cheap. But otherwise, you know, an immersion circulator like a sous vide. And then you drop a pan in there and you put either your tempeh or your koji in there and it gives it the perfect environment.

What's the temperature? I guess requirements for all referments. So we start with tempeh.

Tempeh is in that. Tempeh and koji both are right in that 80 to 95 being the top. So 88 degrees is kind of that sweet spot. Miso, once you have it going, your household temperature is fine. So koji is the only tricky part of that. Natto is about 102 degrees. So right what, 40 Celsius. And that one is also. But it's only a 20 hour ferment. So fast.

That's it. And miso can take quite a few months. I've seen a couple of different ways to do it. There's some, I guess the sweeter miso is which is shorter versus the traditional ones. So what's the time frame?

Traditional ones like white miso, it's very traditional, but more koji, less salt, less beans is the shortest ones. And then as you up the amount of beans, lessen the amount of koji and up the amount of salt you're going into the longer and longer ferments. And so that's how you end up with this kind of rainbow of flavors.

We've got some two and a half year old miso in the cave right now. So it just feels like money in the bank, you know, just getting better and aging and good wine.

Have you guys ever tried fermenting with oysters? With what? With oysters.

Like a garum or a fish paste?

Yeah, I've seen some, I guess some recipes out of Europe, even from Korea using like I guess fresh oysters.

Yeah, A lot of the Korean kimchis have fresh, fresh seafood or shrimp. And the nice thing that happens there is that protein starts turning into amino acid and that's where you're gonna get these rich, deep flavors and also, you know, more nutrition.

Like a fish sauce. All these umami nights.

Yeah. And then a lot of what a lot of the chefs are doing around in this country, and I think in Europe too, probably in Australia, as well as they're having a lot of fun with the ancient garams, which are like the fish sauces, but now they're, you know, making them with bugs and with grasshoppers or, you know, I've never heard.

Of that term before. Garum. How do you spell that?

G, A, R, U, M. Garum.

Wow. And where does that originate from?

That's the Romans.

Oh, wow. I've got to do some research. I've never come across that. I'm fascinated at garum because you would think that all, I guess, ancient civilizations would have had their own form of ferments going a Roman ferment. Wow, that's so interesting.

Besides just wine.

That's a cool thing, isn't it? There's so much to talk about. You can just talk for hours about all this.

We could talk to you for hours, but we better start wrapping because we know your time is very precious. And the final question we always ask our. Our guests, if there is one thing you could do for your gut health, what would that be? Kirsten and Christopher.

I guess my advice, if there's one thing you could do for your gut, is just limit the amount of processed foods that you're eating. Just cut them out as much as you can so that your gut microbiome has a chance heal, if that's what you're trying to work on, or find a stasis that's more healthy. So that's within all of our powers, you know, just eat more whole foods. So that's what I would suggest.

Ferments and fiber.

I love that. That's so cool, guys. And James, fighting questions? No, I just think that was awesome.

I'm relatively newer to fermenting compared to Kreitman, but this is just fascinating to really listen to experts on fermentation. So thank you.

And if people want to connect with you and find you guys, what would be the best platform?

We're Ferment Works, ermentworks on Instagram or on the web. But if you just want to kind of see what we're up to and more of a daily basis, I would say Instagram is kind of where I put my blogging energy now that people don't blog much anymore, I think.

Also on the website, the ferment dot works. We've got A seven day free E course that gets people going and just teaching people. Here's a recipe to do. Here's what you need just for those people maybe have bought books but just need a little help to get going. Then the other thing is there's a troubleshooting section on that page. We get at least 3, 4, 5 questions a day from all around the world. You know, to your point, it's like I'm in the Ukraine and I have this vegetable and I'm trying to ferment it or you know, I'm.

Well, most of the questions, how we've set it up is, you know, go ahead and scroll through and look at other people's pictures and see if it matches your picture. But it doesn't match anything you've already come across. It's sort of fermentation help desk. You know, send a picture and from a picture we'll try to diagnose and I don't know when this is being aired, but we're having a little pre order special for the book that comes out and for folks that pre order, you can go to the website and put in your receipt number and get a link to three videos. One just a conversation with us. One a recipe to make your first sort of my first miso, really simple miso. And the other is for making energy energy balls, Energy bites with natto with purchased natto. Because we figured while you're waiting for your book, you could have a couple recipes to get going and get excited.

That's wonderful. I love what you guys are doing and just teaching people and helping the novice become more comfortable with making these wonderful traditional foods. So, Christopher, thank you so much for connecting with us. Thank you for coming onto the podcast and spreading your years and years of knowledge and bless you. Thank you so much. Pleasure.

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