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This episode is brought to you by Nourish Me Organics, your gut health superstore. Nourish Me Organics is the premier online store for all things gut health, including probiotics, prebiotics, natural health supplements, and home fermentation kits. So head to www.nourishmeorganics.com and use the code Happy Gut for 10% off. In this episode, Crib Govenda, a seasoned food scientist and registered nutritionist, interviews Dr. William Davis on Lactobacillus Rotary and its impact on skin health, gut health, and overall well being.

Hey, guys, cribbing governor from the Gut Health Gurus podcast. I've got a background in food science and today we have a legendary returning guest, Dr. William Davis. Back to the show. Welcome, Dr. William Davis.

Thanks, Crimin. Thanks for having me back.

My absolute pleasure. I've been looking forward to this conversation for quite some time. After the initial episode launched, we've had incredible feedback. One of the most downloaded episodes in our catalog. So highly encourage folks, go back, listen to that episode, come back, check out this updated 242024 conversation. It's to be a real doozy. So, Dr. William Davis, what's what's going on since our last conversation in the world of gut health? Anything particular in terms of the latest research up to 2024? And has anything changed based on your work? You've got some incredible books. Super Gut, I believe, was the last one. So are there any updates to the book that have come through in the last year or so?

Well, as you know, I'm a fanatic for one microbe in particular, and that is Lactobacillus reuteri, a microbe, as you recall, that virtually everybody has lost in the modern world because of our overexposure, mostly antibiotics and perhaps other factors. And so almost no one retains this microbe that virtually all indigenous human populations have. So if we were to go into maybe the outback, maybe because there's so much westernization of those populations, but certainly to the jungles of New guinea, if there's any remaining tribes who are unexposed to antibiotics, or the Brazilian rainforest, they all have Rotori. People unexposed to antibiotics all have rotori. All mammals, wild mammals unexposed to antibiotics, all have Rotori. But it's us as modern people who've lost almost all of it. Well, you know, talking about these kinds of things and all the things I see with restoration of this microbe, such as a restoration of youthful musculature, an increase in the hormone oxytocin thereby an increase in the intensity of love and affection and generosity in the acceptance of other people's opinions, an increase in libido, improved social behavior. Well, I, I tell this to my audience, which is largely female. They all say, we don't really care about that stuff so much. We just want better skin. And I say, what? Well, okay, so I said, let's validate what happens in the skin. Because if we believe the experiment, environmental animal model, there's a dramatic increase in dermal collagen. And ladies are berserk for dermal collagen because that's. They get red light therapy and microneedling and retinoic acid and all the things they do to increase collagen content of the dermis. They apply it to the epidermis, the external skin, but it's really the dermal layer, just a millimeter and a half below the epidermis that is the principal driver of skin health and appearance. And you can only access it in a very minimal way by applying topical products because the epidermis is largely impenetrable. So what if we do it orally? Well, one of the things that develops with restoration of rudderite is an explosion of dermal collagen. The ladies love it because they lose their wrinkles or at least there's a reduction wrinkle depth. So I wanted to validate this. I did a small clinical trial, very small, 25 ladies, very modest. I asked them, these are big American ladies, so I asked them not to change their diet, not to change their exercise program, just to get four things. So it started with Lactobacillus rotori. It was in capsule form. You can't do it with yogurt or thing really because it's a clinical trial. So I combined it with marine source collagen peptides, very specific form of collagen, hyaluronic acid, by the way, cribbing those two things, collagen and hyaluronic acid are largely absent from the modern diet because of the nonsense we've been told to cut your fat and cholesterol. And it caused most modern people to abandon consumption of organ meats that had collagen and hyaluronic acid. And then I also added the carotenoid astaxanthin to compensate for the low carotenoid intake, you know, beta carotene, lutein, zeaxanthin. Because people are getting their food from fast food and in a clamshell and a drive through window or other garbage sources of food, they're not getting all the carotenoids they need. Carotenoids play a big role in multiple aspects of health, including skin. So those four things, Lactobacillus roteri, marine source collagen peptides, hyaluronic acid and astazan, all meant to compensate, by the way, for things we've lost, we're not getting. So we do this little trial for 90 days and we use skin methods like high intensity skin ultrasound to measure the thickness of the dermis. And we did indeed record an unprecedented amount of thickening of the dermal layer. 15%, which doesn't sound like a lot, but almost every other study Prior to this, 6 to 7% would be routine. Over 90 days, we're getting more than double that. And the ladies were thrilled. They got more moisture, the wrinkle depth, especially of crow's feet. And some of the finer lines was reduced. Some of the more deep lines like nasolabial fold and forehead also was reduced. But what took us by surprise was we just happened in this skin trial. Criminal. This was not a body composition trial, not a weight loss trial. It was just a skin trial. We happen to measure waist circumference. Lo and behold, they lost a huge amount of waist circumference. Now as, as I look back, I saw these, these data that some ladies lost as much as 8 inches off their waist with no change in diet. I, I asked how could this be? Well, I had inadvertently created a body composition formulation that targets loss of abdominal fat and I believe increases muscle. It cause a restoration of youthful muscle. And that's what we see play out in all the people doing these kinds of things. And so by accident, I created something that changes shape and body composition. So I think that's the smarter way people talk about weight loss, but that's not really the best way to think about things. It's really about shape and body composition. And you know what? This has been brought to a head by the GLP1 agonist world. Those people dispensing those horrible, horrible drugs. So let's say it's your wife. Let's just pretend she's going to get charged $12,000. It may be a little different in your part of the will be here. It's real expensive, about $12,000 for a year's worth of one of those drugs like wegovy. She loses 40 pounds of which 30 pounds is fat, 10 pounds is muscle. Well, think about 10 pounds of ground beef on your kitchen table. It's a lot of muscle. So she loses that 40 pounds, 10 pounds of which is muscle. She stops the drug because most people can't afford that forever. She regains 32 to 34 pounds of fat, almost no muscle. The severity of insulin resistance, blood sugar, blood pressure, inflammatory phenomena are all now worse than they were at the start. She's fatter. Well, so she can stop the drug and have her health deteriorate worse than it was at the start, or she can be held hostage by the pharmaceutical industry and stay on that drug forever and expose all the other side effects like pancreatitis and thyroid cancer. So it's a horrible choice. And you've probably heard this phrase ozempic phase, because they lose mostly not abdominal fat, but subcutaneous, just below the skin fat and muscle. They may be skinnier, but they're 10 to 20, 20 years. Look older looking often. So I think I stumbled on a way Cribbin to do the opposite to target specifically abdominal fat. Subcutaneous fat will follow because it's abdominal fat that's the driver of fat elsewhere. So we're going to target the most problematic fat of all, abdominal fat, while restoring youthful muscle. Because as you recall, as you and I age, we lose at least a third, if not more of our original muscle we had when we were young. And so we're doing the opposite, changing what I call shape and body composition, not just losing weight.

That's incredible. I mean, you're this. I think you created a product called Oxy Suitable which has the formula, I think it's is a gut to glow or something like that. So it's, it's an amazing alternative to the Ozempics of the world. Because aside from very small edge cases when it comes to obesity and things like that, really severe conditions, I, I really, I don't think it should be used as a product to lose weight. From a vanity point of view, you, you and I as scientists and in this field of nutrition, can vouch for seeing lots of clients and helping them on journeys to actually reduce weight in a healthy manner through diet and exercise and all these traditional means. But these GLP analogous or whatever they're called, OICS of the world, are very effective to lose weight, wait fast, but there's definitely a price to pay. I wanted to come back to your Rooti clinical trial. There's a certain strain of Rooti that you're using, L Routeri lrdr. Are you able to tell us a little bit more about how you selected that particular strain of Rooter? And is there any additional benefits from this particular strain versus some other strains like Bio, Gaia and these other ones.

You know, we've not fully compared them. All I can tell you because we have some intellectual property to protect and you may know that once you patents you can't divulge much because you risk invalidating your patents.

Sure.

And so we have three filed patents. So all I can tell you is that this is a strain. The LRDR is strain we studied in animals and humans and I believe so we stand behind. I know it sounds fuzzy, but I can't give more than that. We will continue to study and compare them. So you know, one thing I don't have, Cribben, is a pharmaceutical budget. I don't have a billion dollar budget for research. We have a several hundred thousand dollars research budget. And one of the things that I started to do that I need to go further with is to take there's 200 plus strains of Reuteri and are there ones better at these effects than others? And so we've only had the opportunity to compare five and so far we haven't been able to tell any differences. But imagine we can test 50 and not only that, test different doses. So if 10 billion works, is 50 billion better? Is 500 billion even better than that? There has been some skepticism about the role of dosages because microbes take up residence, but I don't think that's true. The emerging evidence is telling us that dosage does indeed. Perhaps there's some plateau, but dosage does seem to matter. There's one great study for instance, using Lactobacillus gasserite and I believe it was 2055 strain and it was placebo 1 billion and 10 billion. And the only measure they made was waist circumference. Well, placebo no change over 90 days. 1 billion, no change. 10 billion, something like 3 centimeters of lost waist circumference. Well, if 10 billion works, what would 50 billion have done? Or 100 or 500 billion? So there's a lot of lack of that kind of. Because those multi arm studies are very costly and none of us have the pharmaceutical budget where they can run a dozen arms because they have billions of dollars to spend because they rob people. Quite honestly, we're not trying to rob people, we're just trying to deliver technologies and products that have effects, by the way, effects, Cribbin. I would argue that in many ways in this emerging world, the microbiome are proving to be superior to much of the world of pharmaceuticals.

Well, 100% agree in these particular cases when we're talking about personalized nutrition in a very safe and effective manner that can be used ongoing. 100% agree. So what's your thoughts on how these particular strains are reducing weight circumference? Because things like I use a certain product called Biotic Quest Sugar Shift, which is also a rotary based product and my whole family uses it. But we can certainly attest for the fact that it does help to keep your, your body slimmer. I don't know fully understand, I don't understand fully how it works. But are you able to share any insights on particular mechanisms that could be at play?

There's probably several, probably even a half dozen. But I think the principal driver is something that my friend, Dr. Raul Keno, he's the scientist at Biota Quest that designed that sugar shift product you're talking about. Raoul conducted a small clinical trial about 60 people and the sugar shift formulation was shown to reduce endotoxemia, I.e. bacterial breakdown products that gain access to the bloodstream. He was able to reduce LPS endotoxemia just short of 100%, which is spectacular. So in other words, so what's happened in modern people, Cribben, is that. And in the US it's really bad. It's half the population. It's the worst epidemic ever in the history of our species on this planet. I'm not quite sure how bad it is in other parts of the world I think it's bad, but I'm not sure it's quite as bad because of our wild overexposure to antibiotics. And by the way, not just in prescription, but in food also. Antibiotics are also used in food, in livestock to accelerate growth, or at least it used to be mainly. So when you are exposed to antibiotics, one of the things that happens is there's an over proliferation of fecal microbes, proteobacteria, in the colon that then are able to ascend into the 24ft of small intestine where they take up residence. And these, these microbes, of course, trillions of them don't live very long. They live for only a few hours. So they live and die rapidly. When they die, they release some of their toxic components. And one of them is called endotoxin or LPS endotoxin. And that is able to gain entry into the bloodstream because the small intestine is very permeable. So this endotox endotoxin gains access to the bloodstream. That's called endotoxemia. And it raises blood glucose, it causes growth of abdominal fat, it raises blood pressure, it raises markers of inflammation dramatically by the way, some inflammatory markers can go up 300 fold huge. It contributes to cognitive impairment, dementia, it contributes to heart disease, coronary disease, atrial fibrillation, heart rhythm disorders. It contributes to skin rash, psoriasis, rosacea, seborrhea. It plays a role in virtually all modern common chronic diseases. So we've got to reconsider all those diseases because if your doctor just gives you an anti inflammatory for your fibromyalgia or an antispasmodic for your irritable bowel syndrome, they have done nothing for the infestation of fecal microbes. We call that sibo, by the way, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth and the endotoxemia. So I suspect the reason why these formulations, whether it's reuteri alone or a sugar shift combination formulation, is because they reduce endotoxemia. Endotoxemia provokes insulin resistance and that's the fundamental process that drives weight gain around the waist. So it reduces that phenomenon. There's some other effects also. So ROTORI specifically sends a signal to the brain to release the hormone oxytocin, as you recall. And oxytocin has an appetite suppressing effect. Also ROTORI and some other microbes suppress cortisol. So lots of modern people have abnormal rises in cortisol which cause abdominal fat accumulation and inflammation and higher blood sugars. Well, rotori probably be via oxytocin. That part's not been worked out. Dramatically slashes cortisol levels. And there's some other mechanisms, but I think the major driver is the reduction in endotoxema that not only allows better what I call shape and body composition, it also generates a whole huge range of health benefits.

That's incredible because there are some other strains as well, like Bacillus subtilis that can also help in this, in this kind of area. There's a product called Megaspore Biotic, which is another incredibly popular one, which has this particular strain in there. But coming back to the rotary, there's also some, some evidence around these products binding to things like H. Pylorious and other nasty types of bacteria to help inactivate these, these type of negative effects. So are there any other strains on your radar or bacteria in your radar? Because you've really shone a light on rotary and made it incredibly popular. People are making yogurts and wonderful products out of these rotary capsules. Now there's even starter cultures like the Biotic Quest starter culture where you can make these yogurts. So part one, is there any other strains or Types of bacteria that are starting to emerge that you're aware of.

You have a few hours.

As long as you like.

Well, the one you just mentioned, the bacillus subtilis or subtilis is one of my favorites also. But you know, I like to do with it. I like to make sparkling juices that taste like soda or soda pop. So now the popular strain you're probably thinking of is the HU58 strain, but not that strain. That's a great strain for making yogurt, for instance, but I want a strain that produces lots of carbon dioxide. So if you get the DE111 strain, and by the way, I don't know what the source could be in your part of the world, but here we have a discount food store called Aldi's, for instance, or Costco, and you can buy a very low cost kombucha. They call it kombucha. It's not really kombucha, but it looks like kombucha, about $2. And we take, it's made with that bacillus subtilis and we take a little bit, maybe a quarter or half cup of that kombucha. Take whatever volume of juice you want. Just be sure the juice has no preservatives like potassium sorbate or sodium benzoate. Pour that bit of kombucha with the bacillus subtilis into the juice cap, agitate lightly loosen the cap and then ferment at 90 degrees Fahrenheit. So what's that about 32 degrees Celsius, something like that in your device and let that go for 60 hours or until it's no longer sweet. So great advantages. One, the sugar is gone because the microbe consumes the sugar. And you'll see it bubbling like mad, you know, when you shake a can of Coca Cola, that kind of effervescence. And so if you, if you ferment, for instance, let's say grape juice, you'll have grape soda or strawberry juice, you'll have strawberry soda. And it's a source of a huge number of bacillus subtilis, a CO2 producing strain, the DE111. So that's another really fun thing for people to do. You can also do something similar with Saccharomyces boulardi, which is a fungus. It's the cousin of Saccharomyces erevisiae, used to make beer and wine. But if you get the Saccharomyx boulardii, which you can buy as a commercial probiotics not really probiotic, but you can do the same thing, but this time at room temperature and over about 48 plus hours. Make sure it's no longer sweet, we don't want sugar. And you'll have another sparkling juice. And that's the best protection anybody has against an antibiotic. In other words, if you take an antibiotic because you have an upper respiratory infection or whatever urinary tract infection, it's going to disrupt your gastrointestinal microbiome. Drink the Saccharomyce boulardii juice and it minimizes, doesn't prevent, but minimizes the disruption of the gastrointestinal microbiome. You know what's a really cool area is female reproductive health.

Wow.

I just last two years have had two grandchildren.

Congratulations.

Thank you. I had no room, just an observer. My, my daughter in law who has no shortage resources. She's got a gynecologist, an obstetrician, a gastroenterologist, an endocrinologist, a rheumatologist, a primary care doctor, a functional medicine. No shortage of resources. Got virtually no good information on how to manage pregnancy, delivery and postpartum period. And so I had to educate her and my son, for instance, that a woman must have the microbe Lactobacillus crispatus in her vaginal microbiome. Many ladies have lost it. And if you lose it, you're at higher risk for miscarriage. I mean catastrophic things, not a little bit, but catastrophic. Early premature delivery, which is, can be catastrophic. A child delivered at 30 weeks can ruin that, that child's life for a lifetime. It also is incredibly important for vaginal health later in life because it restores vaginal moisture, reduces the likelihood dramatically of urinary tract infections and of urge incontinence. A woman, let's say, who's 69 years old, 70 years old, coughs or sneezes and wets are so very embarrassing, right? Well, Crispinus dramatically reduces that oxytocin through Rotori, another big factor, you know, breastfeeding, many lays have lost rotori and lost the oxytocin that drives expression of breast milk. And many ladies who don't have rotor eye are at higher risk for postpartum depression, which can be very dangerous for a child because if a mom can't bond with the child and becomes neglected, that can be very dangerous to a newborn. And so restoration of Rotori restores the ability to breastfeed, reduce risk of postpartum depression, increases libido in other settings, increases vaginal moisture. Combine it with Crispatus, a Synergistic restoration of vaginal moisture and sensation reduction, urinary tract infections. And that's just a start. There's all these wonderful insights coming out into female reproductive health that are critical and not being passed down to ladies.

Absolutely. Speaking to a prior guest, we who's got some expertise in this field, there is such thing as a vmt, a vaginal microbiota transfer. So aside from vmt, is there any other ways to attain this particular strain? Lactobacillus crispatus.

It's so new, Cribbon. It's a little tough to source. In the US There's a product called Gerophem doflus advanced. Unfortunately, they included several other species with it. But I still think it's a good source of the Crispatus. And only, only in the last few, literally weeks are there some new products coming out with just Lactobacillus crispatus. So that's going to come. And by the way, you can make yogurt with. Makes it delicious. Probably the best yogurt I've ever had. It tastes like sweet cream cheese and I call it vagina yogurt. But it makes, it makes it easy for a woman to get very high counts and really interesting. This is very preliminary, though. It looks as if a woman who takes Lactobacillus crispatus orally doesn't have to be inserted vaginally. Some people do it that way, but you can just take it orally and it colonizes, incredibly, the vagina, even though there's no direct connection that we're aware of. And then even more remarkably, it colonized the bladder, the urinary bladder. There's no connection. There's nearness, there's contiguity in the perineum, but there's really no direct connection that we're aware of. And so a woman just has to take it orally. But here's another twist. And then when that woman has intercourse with her partner, she may pass that Crispatus onto her, in this case, male partner that in preliminary evidence, colonize the prostate gland and reduces prostate inflammation and the risk for prostate disease. That needs better validation. But we're opening a new world of what these things can do.

Wow. That. That's incredible. If people want to deeper, dig a little bit deeper. There's a prior conversation I had with a, with an amazing researcher called Dr. Amy Zagani, which delves into a little bit of deeper science in this area. But it's fascinating emerging research in this field. Reproductive issues are a huge issue across especially the western worlds. With declining birth rates, fertility issues. So anything that can help in this field, like this crispitis organism, is going to be amazing for society. So thank you for highlighting this very important area, Dr. William Davis. So we'll move on to a different area I want to tackle some of, I think some of your recipes online and even in your book call for the use of certain prebiotics. So prebiotics being these, these types of compounds that the bacteria feed off, something like phospinulin. So are you able to speak a little bit about why you include some of these aspects in your recipes? And the second part to that question is what are the different types of prebiotics that you recommend being used in your recipes?

So it's, it's no different than say putting some cow manure on your vegetable garden, right? If you do that, you're going to have bigger, juicier tomatoes and cucumbers. That's why it's fertilizer. It's, it's feeding those vegetables things they need to grow and reproduce. So the same thing with so called prebiotic fibers and related compounds, we're just going to feed the microbes. And when we do that, they produce, they proliferate and then they produce metabolites that have huge benefits for us. The one that really counts is butyrate, butyric acid. So for ladies interested in skin, if you feed your microbes, let's. The one you mentioned, inulin, fructooligosaccharides, that blooms species like Faecala bacterium and Akkermansia and Rumenic acacia that produce in turn butyric acid. That butyric acid makes deeper sleep, lower blood pressure, lower blood sugar, it reduces inflammation, helps shrink abdominal fat. Now the lady said we don't get, we just want skin, right? But it goes to the skin too. Butyric acid acidifies the skin. And a lot of people are unaware that healthy skin is quite acidic, about 4.5 pH as opposed to unhealthy diseased skin. Whether it's acne, seborrhe, eczema, psoriasis, rosacea, Those people have PHS of about 5.5. The ph scale recall is logarithmic. And so that's a tenfold difference in acidity. So we want the skin to be mildly acidic. That's what discourages pathogens like Staphylococcus aureus, which is a really nasty skin microbe and encourages the proliferation of a beneficial microbe called Staphylococcus epidermidis. And that acidic ph also discourages fungal overgrowth including such things as Malassezia and to some degree Candida species. And so acidification of the skin is. And that, that's how you get better skin from the inside. So by the way, just back skin issue between the rotor eye that provokes an explosion in dermal collagen. Collagen taken orally adds dermal collagen. Hyaluronic acid also adds dermal collagen and causes moisture retention and dermal layer of skin. And the astaxanthin carotenoid is anti inflammatory and provides protection from sun damage. And now we're going to add these other components. So what we have also is not just the shape and body composition for it, we also have something that's magnetic, magnificently effective for skin. That butyric acid further acidifies the skin, protects you from blemishes, redness and colonization by unhealthy microbes and makes it harder to have any skin blemishes or rashes.

Wow, that's incredible because the melasma one is a very common problem with tinea and these sort of ringworm fungal infections on the skin. So how does the. So the prebiotic helps the formation of butyrate. So there's the butyrate migrate to the skin to affect the acidity.

It probably goes everywhere, brain skin, tongue, prostate, vagina, liver, everywhere. But it's this, you know, the reason I did the skin trial and released a skin product, even though I know that these things can do far more than give you better skin. But you know what, it's the carrot for the ladies. If you say, you know what? If I said it's going to restore youthful musculature, they go, oh, I don't care about that. Or if I say it's going to make you like your co workers better, maybe that's kind of interesting. But if you say you're going to have better skin, they say they'll knock doors down. So I did that just as a carrot to get people engaged.

Yeah, I hear you. I can see my wife's covered with all the, all the beauty products and all the different things that they, they use. So it's certainly a good incentive. But you have all these other effects that are going to be very beneficial for their health overall as well. Sorry, keep going.

Some of the ladies say, well, does that mean I have to stop? All the. No, it doesn't mean you have to stop. I do worry how much money some ladies spend on these things. I see them spend, you know, over a hundred dollars for an ounce of hyaluronic acid serum when it's far more effective to take it orally. And it might cost you $7 for a six month supply. So. But it, but if you have better skin health and appearance, those topical products, you still use them, Lace can still use them and you'll get better results because your skin is healthier and smoother underneath.

100% agree. So coming back to the probiotics, because I often get asked this from customers and, and just folks that listen to the podcast, what are there any other prebiotics that could be used aside from fosinulin in these recipes?

So I like inulin and it's related fructal saccharides because it's so widely metabolized. That's why we, we use that in testing for sibo. For instance, when we test with like the air device, aire that tests for hydrogen gas in a lab or clinic, they tend to use lactulose, which I think is a mistake because there are a lot of species. So if you have sibo, and let's say it's dominated by Klebsiella, enterobacter, proteus, Pseudomonas, staphylococcus, Streptococcus, enterococcus. Right. But what if you use lactulose that some of those microbes don't recognize and can't metabolize? We're going to miss the severity of the sibo. So let's choose something that is widely metabolized by as many bad microbes as possible. Inulin, fos. So that's what we use. But there's other, as you point out, numerous other prebiotic fibers and related things. There's galactooligosaccharides, for instance, that are in legumes and root vegetables. There's xylo, oligosaccharides and root vegetables, there's polysaccharides in mushrooms. So the key is no one has to memorize that long list. Just recognize that as plant matter that has these fibers, mostly root vegetables like radishes, carrots, legumes, all the things we're familiar with as root vegetables, those are really good for feeding microbes. By the way, that hyaluronic acid I mentioned that we use in our formulation that is a fiber also. It's one of the few fibers sourced from animals. It comes from brain and skin and some other organs like tongue. And so when people abandon consumption of organs, they abandoned consumption of hyaluronic acid with these magnificent effects on skin, but also serves as a prebiotic fiber to the gastrointestinal tract and it specifically blooms butyric acid producing species, the akkermansias, the fecalobacter, and also suppresses fecal microbes and increases mucus production in the adrenaline GI tract. So hyaluronic acid, this fiber source from animals is spectacularly effective as a fiber that generates all these wonderful effects, including on the skin.

That's incredible. So is it possible to also consume organ meats to attain some of this hydrolonic acid, hyaluronic acid?

Absolutely, absolutely. It's kind of hard to quantify because it's hard to find out. There've been very few analyses of the content of these things in say stomach or intestine or, or heart. So it's a little bit tough to come by. But that would be perfectly adequate, just like our great grandmothers did. That's how they did it. So, but the problem, of course with most modern people, certainly in the US they become so squeamish because they're used to cellophane wrap microwavable food. They're not, they're not used to real food like grandma had. No one's going to chop the heads off chickens or slaughter a hog in the backyard. And so people have become so squeamish it's really tough to get them. I mean, the most they might do for most people maybe eat sausage in real casing, real intestinal casing, or maybe tripe if they so desire liver. An easy way to do this is get some chopped liver, mix it 50, 50 with some chopped beef. That would be an easy way to get some liver into somebody. But it's really tough to persuade modern people. And I have to admit I'm a little squeamish if I have a big piece of heart it takes. It's a little tough to chop that to pieces.

Fortunately, these days there's a lot of freeze dried organ capsules and in good cake, good capsule, gelatin capsules and things like that. So that could be a good alternative for people to incorporate organ meats back into the diet. So I want to shift gear a little bit. You've got the book in the back, the Wheat Belly. That's a huge success for you. So in terms of the wheat story, has there been any changes in your opinion around wheat or is it, is it even more firmly implanted that wheat is the modern wheat? Certainly a terrible thing for us?

You know, things have changed since I wrote the original wheat belly when people thought what the heck was he talking about? And it was really Tough to get gluten free foods in the grocery store or in a restaurant now. The world has changed and it's very easy to eat gluten free. A lot of restaurant people don't really understand what that means, but nonetheless they're trying. And you can get say a gluten free steak or gluten free piece of salmon or whatever. It's much, much easier than it used to be because it's become almost mainstream now. So that's been nice. You know, I just drove across the state of Illinois this past weekend and it was shocking how much farmers grow almost nothing except for huge fields of high yield semi dwarf wheat that stands about a foot tall and of course, genetically modified corn. Huge compact fields, acres and acres, thousands of acres of. That's all they grow now. It seems like very few of them grow any like, you know, organic cucumbers or something like that. So these vast monocultures. So it's, I think it may have gotten worse. I get, I get concerned about our glyphosate exposure and exposure to other herbicides like chlorpyrifos. That's a real issue. I think for a lot of people, you know, in, in the US it's really bad where everybody has glyphosate residues in their skin, hair, GI tract, liver, everywhere. We have glyphosate everywhere because it's used so much and sprayed to such extremes. And so I do worry about that. So I don't think things have gotten better in the way of the actual agricultural production of those products. I think the public perception has improved somewhat, I think, and some of the medical community, some of them, not because they're reading the science, not because they love nutrition, but because they've had so many people come to them and say, you know what? The doc will say, how'd you lose 78 pounds? I went wheat and grain free. How did your rheumatoid arthritis go away? I went wheat and grain free. You know, so they're seeing, I think the, the results of banishing this horrible thing created in a laboratory called high yield sand dwarf wheat.

So you, it sounds like your opinion's a lot more nuanced around the wheat. So often I hear that when people travel to Europe, say a country like Italy, they don't seem to experience the same negative impacts like say Australia or the US Is any insights that you may be aware of as to why that is the case.

So they're likely being exposed to a different form of the gliadin protein. That's Very toxic on the gastrointestinal tract and response for a lot of the gastrointestinal intolerances or skin rashes or asthma. The problem with that is there's a lot of effects that you don't perceive. For instance, the amylopectin, a carbohydrate unique to wheat and grains, is a flagrant provoker of small LDL particles. Small LDL particles, the real cause for heart attack, heart disease, not LDL cholesterol. LDL cholesterol is the tool of the pharmaceutical industry to sell statin cholesterol, cholesterol drugs. It's nonsense, hard does anything at all, yet it makes billions and billions of dollars. It's made hundreds of billions over the years. But the real cause of heart disease is small LDL particles and there's a variety of reasons for that. They're very oxidation prone, they're very adherent to the structural tissues of arteries. They're much more likely to become adherent to the artery wall, much more likely to provoke inflammation. They last five to seven days compared to 24 hours of normal large LDL particles. So small LDL particles are provoked for about a week after consuming anything that contains the amylopectin. A whether or not you have gastrointestinal problems from eating that ciabatta or bagel. Likewise, wheat germagglutinin is another protein that's completely indigestible by humans, but it's very toxic to the GI tract and it denudes the villi. You may not feel it because it's not the stomach. It's more further down. There's also phytates. These are compounds that bind minerals like calcium, magnesium, zinc and iron in the GI tract. And you poop it out. You won't be aware of it. And modern wheat, whether it's in Italy, France or the US has been enriched in wheat germa, gluten and phytates because they're both pest resistant compounds and the farmers don't like to have mold or insects eating their wheat. So they, they select strains with higher content wheat, germa, gluten and phytates. But they are gastrointestinal irritants and they bind minerals and you pass them. So in other words, if you ate something with let's say iron, let's say some, a piece of beef on rye. Well, the phytates in that rye cause you to pass almost all of the iron into the toilet. That's why a lot of ladies in particular have iron deficiency anemia. I've seen ladies cribbing who go through periodic blood transfusions, iron injections, they're tired all the time because their hemoglobin is real low, they're anemic, they're breathless and cold and they stop eating wheat and grains and it's gone within two weeks. And their hemoglobin is 12, it's now normal, over and over and over again. And some other mineral deficiencies also.

Wow.

So the law, the lack of perceptible gastrointestinal symptoms does not mean it's not having adverse effects on you.

Sure, I hear you. So in terms of the traditional practices of like fermentation or making sourdough, does that reduce some of the negative impacts?

So I liken that to low tar cigarettes. So in other words, if, if I put a filter on my Marlboro's and reduce the tar content, is the cigarette now is it healthy? Of course not. Right. So if we ferment it as sourdough, we're going to reduce somewhat the amylopectin a content, we're going to reduce some of the gliadin, we're going to reduce some of the wheat, German glutenin, we're going to reduce some of the phytates, but they're all still there. And then when you bake it, you kill all the microbes, the heat kills the microbes. So it's, it's kind of a false reassurance.

Moving on to another topic. So the field of the microbiome. So coming back to the research aspects, the field of the microbiome now is really exploding. There's new studies coming out on a daily basis on all these different axes that the gut, the microbiome are connected to things like the brain, the kidneys, the heart. Are there any insights that you can share based on your scouring of the research? Because this is a huge area of interest for you. Are there any nuggets out there that you can share with the audience?

Well, one of the keys we're seeing is when, because half the population certainly in the US and maybe a high number elsewhere too, like in your part of the world. Well, how do you correct that if you have trillions of microbes that have infested the small intestine and by the way, the process of so called translocation is becoming a much more widely appreciated, I.e. microbes can exit one area and gain entry to the other. Maybe the vaginal and bladder colonization by Crispatus from the GI tract. Maybe an example that another great example is fusobacterium nucleotum in the mouth. If you've got bleeding gums or gingivitis or periodontitis, you'll typically have very high levels of microbe called fusobacterium nucleotum, which then enters the bloodstream with any micro trauma like flossing or brushing, and then colonize the colon. And the evidence is very good that is a major cause of colon cancer. In other words, colon cancer may start in the mouth and. But back to the original question. So it's becoming clear that this issue of SIBO of 24ft of small intestine infested by fecal microbes is exceptionally common. And getting rid of it can be as simple as restoring some of the lost microbes, but especially microbes that colonize the small intestine specifically. So most, most species of microbe don't do that. So we're going to select microbes that colonize the small intestine and we're going to select microbes known to produce what are called bacteriasins, natural antibiotics. And we're going to choose ones that are very effective in killing the species of sibo star in that bacillus subtilis or subtilis, because bacillus subtilis produces. So there's two general categories of microbes when you stain them, look at them under microscope, gram negative, of course, gram positive. Well, most of the fecal microbes are gram negatives. And two other microbes we use for this purpose are rotori, lactobacillus gassrin. Those are very good at pushing down or killing gram negatives. But I was always concerned about the gram positives like staphylococcus and streptococcus and enterococcus. Well, the addition of the bacillus subtilis means we've added a microbe with tremendous gram positive eradicating capabilities. So restoration of those three we do as a yogurt, but not the, not the subtlest I mentioned earlier, the DE 111, because that's. We do that to make sparkling juices. In this case, we might use something like the HU58 strain. It doesn't produce carbon dioxide, but it's a bacteria producer. And so far cribbing we've had greater than 90% success in eradicating SIBO by making yogurt with these things. It's not yogurt, of course, it looks and smells like yogurt, but it's not yogurt. It's not the stuff you buy in the store. That nonsense. This stuff we make ourselves using extended or prolonged fermentation so that we get really super duper high counts of microbes, typically around 300 billion microbes per half cup serving. So we get this big wallop and to make ladies happy. So while you get rid of the sibo, consume for a minimum of four weeks. And they say my skin wrinkles are going away, my shoulders are firm, firmer, I'm stronger and my libido's increased. And so all these wonderful effects also mostly from the rotor eye.

Amazing. I'm very conscious of your time, so we'll, we'll start to, to wrap up. So what, what's peaking your interest at the moment in general? Is there anything that's really standing out in terms of exciting you, aside from the root for you? Because you clearly love rotary. Anything else?

You know, the, the. Our ability to reduce endotoxema, perhaps eradicated, has such incredibly huge implications because it's becoming clear that that process of endotoxemia is a major risk factor for heart disease, coronary disease, atrial fibrillation is a huge risk factor for cognitive implant impairment and dementia. It's a huge driver of obesity and type 2 diabetes. And it's probably one of the most potent risk factors for cancer in numerous forms. So we can address this one process, SIBO and the associated endotoxemia using microbes disguised as yogurt that you make in the comfort of your kitchen and eat with blueberries. And I think we have the capacity to exert enormous positive effects on people's health.

Amazing. And people might be interested in accessing some of these recipes. So where do they find the recipes to make these products?

So some, many of them are in my super gut book. I have many also posted on my blog. If people put william william davismd.com they'll come to my blog to several thousand blog posts there people who really want an in depth dive. I have a membership website, it's called the inner Circle and then my name and that has several hundred thousand forum posts. And we have this kind of a conversation once a week for a couple hours. We talk about all these kinds of things. I made rotor eye yogurt and it failed. What can I do?

Yes, I often get questions about these type of recipes and issues as well. So one big final sort of rabbit hole to jump into. The world is moving rapidly towards this artificial intelligence AI revolution. Explosion of data analytics research in this field. What are your thoughts on where this, this area is headed and what impact do you think it's going to have on all these Topics that we're particularly interested in. Gut health. The microbiome, probiotics. Where do you think it's headed?

You know, it couldn't come at a better time cribbing, because if you ever see the data generated by microbiome analyses, we're talking about millions of data points and it's very difficult to decipher. So you need a computer to decipher a lot of this stuff. And there's patterns because it's becoming clear that microbes, just like humans, don't live in isolation. We have a partner, we have families, co workers, other people, neighbors, people in your community. Microbes are the same way. They interact with each other via a variety of means, but it's really tough to decipher what if. So one of the questions that often comes up is how come I could get Rotori from my mom at birth and if as long as I didn't get exposed to antibiotics, I'd have Rotori for a lifetime. But if I get it as yogurt or probiotic, I have it for a few days. What's the difference? It's probably because we don't yet know how to construct the whole community that supports each other via shared metabolites. And that kind of insight is going to come through, I think. AI data analysis.

Amazing. 100 agree. It's. I work particularly with a company called Microber to do a lot of the fecal microbiome testing. And I'm aware that they have their own system to actually analyze how these different microbes interact with each other using AI technology. So I'm very excited to see where that that particular field is headed in. And just one final thing, so people will be fascinated on what Dr. William Davis is working on. Are there any new books on the horizon of any programs, any research projects that you're working on that you can share with us?

So I think we really need to define better this how Rotori causes a release of oxytocin. I'm really interested in that crim because I think about it this way. So you and I were all living at a time of record social isolation. Even putting aside the pandemic, that's true. 50% of all marriages end in divorce. Record suicide in the US between 2000 and 2020, there was a 36% increase in suicide. And then the psychology community has been formally tabulating, measuring and tabulating the rise of narcissistic behavior since 1963. And there's been a 45 degree incline since over those few decades. Now, could the restoration of Rotori and thereby oxytocin, the hormone of love, empathy, generosity and acceptance of other people's opinions. Could that be at least a partial. That's going to solve all social issues. But could it be the start of turning back to a time that was better, when people respected each other a little bit more, when they were more generous, a little more accepting? So that. That interests me. I'd like to tabulate that when we restore Rotori, do people feel. I know in real life? They do. They tell me all the time. But can we tabulate that so that we can validate this and show this to the rest of the world? The other thing I'm going to work on via our clinical trials is this idea of shape and body composition. So all the studies look at weight loss, but we know that weight loss is a hodgepodge phenomenon. It's subcutaneous fat, abdominal fat, some. And muscle loss. Well, what if we focused on a better, smarter way of doing it? Let's specifically target abdominal visceral fat. And by the way, it's relative ectopic fat that's become a new phenomenon. Fat's being deposited in people's knees, hips, kidneys, pancreases, muscle that's called myostatosis, that impairs health, accelerates disease. Can we specifically target those most problematic forms of fat and not lose muscle, maybe even increase or restore muscle to that you had when you were 25 and I. And we've got to document that, better understand the processes and as the point you make and why, why do we do these things that work so well? Is it via endotoxemia? Is it via cortisol? Is there some other mechanism?

Amazing. I'm so fascinated to see where all your, your latest work evolves into and what sort of insights you can share back. And I'd love to have you back at another point to talk about that in future.

Thank you. Happy to.

So, as we wrap, if there's one thing. So sorry. Firstly we should say if people are really fascinated about what you're talking about, where can they find you? Where can they reach out to you and connect with you?

So the Super Gut book is a good starting place and of course the other books too. There's a revised and expanded Wheat Belly that I updated all the ideas. There's. There are cookbooks to help you navigate and people say, I, I can't stop eating wheat because I need to have pizza on Saturday. You can make, it's. You can make all those things and just kind of switch out some of the ingredients and you can have all those spectacular weight loss and other beneficial health effects. There's also my blog, williamdavismd.com and that membership website and also we're on social media everywhere too. So all those kinds of things, you can't avoid it.

It's going to pop up in your TikTok feed or Instagram reels at some point, especially if you're interested in Gut Health and Rotary for sure. So as we end if is that if there's one thing you could do for your gut health today, what would that be? Dr. William Davis.

Include fermented foods like that Bacillus subtilis sparkling juice. These are really power. I think many people are guilty of thinking they just fluff. No, they are extremely pollen alpha readopt fermented foods. It could be sauerkraut and it could it can be commercial too. Just make sure it's truly fermented. And I if I buy a fermented, commercially fermented sauerkraut or kimchi, I'll leave it on the kitchen counter for at least 48 hours, let it ferment further, or do it yourself. It's so easy. Now you can buy starter cultures. You could. Here's a trick. Buy a commercially fermented sauerkraut, take some of the brine and pour it into something else that you want to ferment. Maybe you chopped up some eggplant and tomatoes, cherry tomatoes and red onion and some garlic cloves and you want to ferment it. Add some of that sauerkraut brine. You could rely on the microbes resident on the surface of the vegetables, but that adds another about three weeks before they ferment. You can accelerate dramatically by adding something that's already fermented, or you can even just buy inexpensive vegetables starter cultures to get you started. But so easy to do and it doesn't cost much at all.

Awesome. Thank you so much, Dr. William Davis.

Thank you, Cribbin.

We hope you enjoyed this episode of the Gut Health Gurus podcast with Dr. William Davis. If you found this podcast valuable, please leave us a kind review and five stars on Apple, Spotify or your favorite podcasting app. If you want to connect with our host, Cribban Govenda, please follow him on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok. Gut HealthGurus. Also, check out our Gut Health Gurus Facebook group. With more than 19,000 members ready to help you on your journey to amazing gut health. This episode is sponsored by Nourish Me Organics. Head to www.w.nourishmeorganics.com au and use the code Happy Gut for 10% off until next time.