Probiotics vs Traditional Fermented Foods

Foreign. Hey guys, Cribbin and James from the Gut Health Gurus podcast. And I'm Cribbin, I'm a food scientist and we have. James has got a background in psychology and an interest in the gut and the brain. So James, how are you today?

Yeah, great. Glad to be back into another podcast. I think last episode was really great. I think we got a lot of good information and I'm understanding the whole.

Scene a lot better and I think it was, it was, we're just scratching the surface and all the information that we got back from the Gut Brain Axis forum or conference in Paris. And I'm really excited to explore all those concepts and. But I thought as a good continuation on to what we were talking about last week around probiotics, let's keep going down that rabbit hole. Let's keep exploring it. So I think we finished off last week talking about, I guess, some of the, I guess the gene polymorphisms that can impact the, I guess the gut and the gut bacteria. Genetics certainly provide or influence the microbiome. But I thought we'll do a whole episode down the track on just talking about the gene side and how that impacts the gut microbiome. But I thought today, let's keep talking probiotics. And we just had a fantastic workshop on the weekend. We had some pretty much, I'd say, newbies in the Gut health space. Really engaged, really mind blowing in terms of the connection between the gut.

Yeah, I remember there was one lady in the audience and you were explaining how the gut and the brain communicate to each other. And she had this really quizzical look. She's like, wait a minute, are you saying the gut speaks to the brain and they communicate to each other? And then you were like, yeah. And she's like, wow.

And I think because we've been in this field now for some time, quite a few years, we forget that the, I guess the general public don't really, I guess, have this information yet. I mean, it's starting to get out through the blogosphere and articles and more and more people talking about it. But it can be pretty mind boggling and pretty, you know, it's like a huge light bulb moment for people when you tell them your gut and your brain actually talk.

Yeah, it's like a lot of stuff starts to make sense after that. Like, oh, now I know why I feel so bad. Because whenever I ate this horrible food I feel really bad. And there's more research explaining that there's a connection there.

It all seems to make sense totally Totally. And I think, well, in the, in the probiotic world, I think, well, it's still very early. I mean, it's extremely early. And a lot of pharmaceutical companies are pouring billions of dollars into the space. It's one of the hottest fields in, in, I guess, the, the biotechnology space. And, and I'm really excited because I think as these companies start to explore this realm deeper, there will come a day when there'll be a probiotic pill or supplement, whatever you want to call it, that will be highly targeted towards a diseased state. But I don't think we are quite there yet. And I think that it's a dangerous period because some companies are using, I guess, the food supplement avenue to, I guess, not have the same rigor as if they were going to go through the drug discovery, pharmaceutical path.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so. So what you're saying is you start off with some type of probiotic substance, like a company develops it, and one way they could go is marketing and selling it as a supplement, or they could go the other avenue, which as a drug and more of a pharmaceutical. And if they go down the supplement path, they don't need to test it as rigorously as you would have to if you were marketing and selling it as something that's pharmacological.

You hit the nail on the head. That's, that's spot on. I mean, my food standards code is pretty strict and rigid, but the pharmaceutical route is even more stringent and I think it requires a lot more, I guess, randomized controlled trials to actually prove that the supplement or drug, Probiotic, drug, is actually doing what it's supposed to be doing and it's not causing harm. And from the conference, I got the feeling that I guess the regulatory bodies in Europe, specifically because this conference was in Europe, are pretty concerned about probiotics and they are asking these companies that are developing these probiotic products to make sure that there's no antibiotic resistance in the probiotic strains that they're developing. Because imagine the risk if the strains now become antibiotic resistant like some of the troublesome ones, like Golden Staff. So the regulatory bodies now are starting to crack down, specifically in Europe, and I'm sure for my knowledge in Europe, this is going to flow on to the rest of the world. I think so.

I mean, wow. So what I'm wondering about is the antibiotic resistance. So I know that if you keep on taking antibiotics over and over, eventually some type of disease or virus is going to develop that's immune to those antibiotics in kind of Like a natural selection type of thing. But it's like whatever survives is the really nasty virus that can survive all the antibiotics you throw at it. And so I wonder, how does that work with the probiotic situation? What's going on now?

Yeah, firstly, James, I think we're just to clarify, we're talking bacteria. So viruses are very different. Gotcha. So bacteria, the risk with bacteria, from my knowledge, bacteria have the ability to transfer antibiotic resistance between each other. So hence, I think this is one of the reasons why regulatory bodies are concerned, is that if you get these probiotics that are developing antibiotic resistance and then you're using it within the environment and in the body, they can transfer that resistance onto other bacteria, potentially ones that are pathogenic, meaning that they can cause disease. So I think this, this is the risk that they're worried about. And it was certainly discussed by many of the speakers and experts. And specifically there was a lady that was from one of the regulatory bodies in, in Europe. I'm blanking on the name or the name of the agency, but she was particularly concerned and vocal. And I spoke to some of the other, I guess, manufacturers who are going through this discovery process in terms of probiotics, and he was that the. This is a requirement now from the regulatory bodies to show that there's no antibiotic resistance.

Yeah. Okay. So they're essentially worried about you or people consuming probiotics and then it actually having a negative effect and leading to some type of disease. And if we don't have strict regulatory systems in place, no one's really checking to see what these probiotics are doing to us.

Yeah, and absolutely. And I think now the whole probiotic space, the gut health space, is a pretty hot scene. And I think now is the time to really be cautious on, firstly, really putting some rigor on how these, these claims are made, are they substantiated? And also to, I would caution, to ask these companies to prove that their supplement products are not creating this antibiotic resistance issue. So it needs to be discussed within our regulatory frameworks in Australia as well.

Yeah, okay, gotcha. And so, I mean, for me, I'm just. It's making me want to just stick to fermented foods. Like, I feel like it's this complex and uncharted territory. Now with probiotics, I feel really cautious about just going and taking a probiotic pill. That's what's coming up for me.

Yeah, absolutely. And if you look at, I guess, fermented foods, they're very different to a probiotic they have organisms in there that are probiotic in nature. But fermented foods are so much more than just the bacteria, because at the end of the day, the bacteria are almost just like a factory, and they're going to produce substances or metabolites that are going to be either beneficial or not beneficial. So with fermented foods, the beneficial metabolites are things like it could be vitamins, it could be, you know, signaling molecules. There's a whole range. And then it's got the food itself, which then has a range of peptides, nutrition, fiber. So there's so much more to fermented foods than just the bacteria. I mean, the bacteria, a probiotic bacteria has to go through a hell of a lot of, I guess, challenges to actually get into the body, get into the gut, get into the lower part of the gut, and then elicit a benefit. So, and I just think that fermented foods have been with us for such a long time that this is just my theory that the body has a greater chance of being able to recognize these microorganisms from fermented foods rather than taking it from a probiotic supplement, which we're not really certain where the source is actually coming from, because through, I guess, thousands and thousands of years, the body has to determine with food as well and these probiotic organisms what is friend and what is foe. And the body, if it recognizes it as being an invader, will trigger its immune system and produce, you know, an immune response to kill off these bacteria. So it becomes a very expensive, or it could potentially become a very expensive exercise. When you're paying hundreds of dollars for these probiotic supplements, only having to almost burden your immune system and then not having the ability to actually survive, elicit a benefit. And don't get me wrong, it doesn't need to colonize, but it needs to elicit and health benefit to be called a probiotic.

Yeah. Okay. So it needs to elicit some type of health benefit. Really interesting. I think something you brought up last week, too, was the idea that it's not that easy for the probiotics to get in and get past, like, your immune system and everything that's going in within the body. What was the idea there? Can we clarify that a bit? How does the body treat all these essentially foreign substances that we're putting in?

Yeah, that's a good question, James. I mean, the gut is extremely. The gut lining is very thin, so it's a permeable membrane. So it needs to allow nutrients in, but keep what it perceives as a threat out. So. And that's, I don't really want to go down that sort of medical discussion around antibiot antibodies and, you know, all these immune cells. But essentially the body has a system to determine what is friend and what is foe. And this is pretty much trained from our whole lives. And I think my theory is it's also built into our genes. So because we've been around for thousands of years, so tens of thousands of years, potentially millions of years. So it's, it's inbuilt in us. And I think food gives you a much greater chance to actually firstly help these probiotic organisms that are in the food to get through the harsh environment, the gut, and have a greater chance of actually being recognized by the body itself as friend, not foe.

Yeah. Okay, great. So were there any other big takeaways that you got out of this, this conference? I feel like the information we're getting out of it, it's mind blowing and challenging. We're finding out so much about this whole space. Are there any other big takeaways?

Yeah, my other big takeaway is that we're really only just scratching the surface when it comes to probiotics. And I know at the moment the huge focus is on bacteria, but then you've also got what we call the virome and the, you know, there's the microbiome, which is the yeasts involved. So we're only talking like bacteria at the moment, but I see a future where there'll be viruses that could be targeted therapeutically as well, as well as the microbiome, which is the yeast and fungi. But as I digest the information coming through, I think we'll will dedicate topics like podcasts to actually talk about this now. How about we keep on delving into the, the fermented foods and the difference. Yeah, so, so rather than, I guess, at this point in time focusing on probiotics, I highly recommend that people start to explore fermented foods. And you've got some amazing weapons in your arsenal. You've got kefir, which is well studied. You've got fermented vegetables, which are an integral part of almost every single culture on the planet, even a huge part of Australia. So the, the law is that Captain Cook was able to essentially survive the journey and his crew, of course, survive the journey to get to Australia and not be, I guess, decimated by scurvy was because they had sauerkraut on board their ships. And then you've got kombucha, which is a really Interesting thing because I don't really believe it's probiotic in nature. There could be one strain of yeast in particular, probiotic yeast called Saccharomyces boari that could be present. But in terms of the probiotic bacteria, I haven't seen a lot of evidence in that case. So I believe there's certainly definite benefits coming out of kombucha, more so in its enzymes. It's the B vitamins, the short chain fatty acids. I believe these things are eliciting a benefit. But what's really interesting that's happening in the fermented food space, this is. You'd find this interesting, James, that because this whole gut health industry is so hot right now, we're starting to see the entry of some big multinational food players. And this, this came on my radar probably quite a few months ago, that it was happening probably actually more than a year ago when I started to see the activity. But now we know definitively that mojo, South Australian based company has been acquired by Coca Cola. So, and the other, the other big kombucha manufacturer, which I won't mention the name, have also sold, I guess, a stake to one of the biggest, I guess, beverage companies in the world called Kirin, who also owns Lion. So lion is a huge dairy player in Australia. And you know, this is happening in the States as well. But what does this mean for the fermented foods world? And you know, I just want to make, make it clear where my stance is, I think. Well, I've been in the food industry for 20 years. I understand food manufacturing very intimately and I understand that it's difficult to produce food in mass, on scale and still maintain the health benefits of fermented foods. That's my stance. The biggest issue, James, is going to be consistency, which the consumer expects almost being conditioned to expect. Cookie cutter products always taste the same thing. There's a huge regulatory risk of alcohol, which are inherent in fermented foods. So it has to be below 0.5%. So this is a huge challenge for manufacturers and I get that. The thing is, I want people to be crystal clear that what a lot of companies are putting out in terms of fermented vegetables, in terms of kefir and kombucha are far cry from the ancient foods that are made from scratch at home. And if you see articles or journals or scientific literature coming out, it's important to differentiate that. We need to, to get the full benefits of these fermented foods in terms of gut health, we need to be preparing it by ourselves. At home and not get caught up in the buzzwords, the marketing, and almost these pseudo fermented foods.

Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, from every workshop that we've done, you know, demonstrating how to make these foods, they're so natural and simple. And I guess a lot of health products that I see that are made by these big food companies, there's so much added stuff in there. But I don't see why fermented foods need anything added to them. They're really natural and simple.

Yeah, absolutely. I think the reason why manufacturers will add things in is to, to almost compensate because they can't produce the real thing consistently. So they have to introduce artificial processes, whether it be forced carbonation. They have to control alcohol, which means they have to very closely control sugar and aeration and things like that to make sure that the alcohol levels are very low. But this results in a product that's not really what it set out to be.

Yeah, I mean, I mean, based off what you're saying there, I'm not really gonna trust buying like, you know, sauerkraut or kefir from a big food company because, well, it's just not gonna be the same as making it myself. It's like you pointed out brilliantly, There are these really big challenges for those companies I'm imagining if I was in their shoes and like, okay, I have to create a product that's consistent and I also have this alcohol problem that I need to overcome. I don't see them being able to maintain the same natural, high quality foods that we can make at home.

Yeah, totally. I mean, and it's. The other thing is it's far cheaper, isn't it? I mean, I mean, these products are not cheap to buy fermented vegetables or your water kefirs and your kombuchas, they're not cheap.

I went into the health food store the other day and I was looking at these bottles of milk kefir. I'm like, why charging six, seven bucks for this bottle of like the little bottle of milk kefir, I'm like, man, you can just, you can make this at home and once you start, you can just make it over and over and over again.

Totally. And I mean, with milk kefir, I have not seen one brand of milk kefir on the shelf that actually uses real kefir grains. So what manufacturers are doing is essentially using lab prepared strains of bacteria, adding it to their products and calling it kefir. And that's. There's no regulation around this, but it's not really kefir because the diversity of kefir and the benefits of it come from using kefir grains.

Right. I mean, that just sounds so confusing to me that they can make kefir without the kefir grains. I thought kefir is made from the grains. That's where all the goodness starts.

Absolutely. I mean, the benefits of kefir is pretty much from this fermentation using kefir grains, which will produce all these beneficial metabolites. And so that's my. My real wish is for people to be very clear. I mean, there's so much information out there these days on the blogosphere. It's so confusing. Like, what. What do you believe? And that's. I really want to cut through that. Cut through the, the jargon and the marketing nonsense and encourage people to just really have a go and make these products at home. Then they're relatively easy to make. They do take time, which I get is not convenient for everybody, but they're so. It's such a rewarding process.

I think it's. I. I totally agree. I think it's great being able to make them yourself, too. I feel like if these big food companies are making the products for you, well, I guess you're kind of missing out on the benefits and I guess the freedom to make it yourself and be in control of it. I mean, if. I mean, for example, if these big companies just start making all the milk kefir, then you just have to have their milk kefir and you can't make your own. You can't make it as good as you could at home.

And that's a risk that. That's absolutely right, James. I mean, firstly, it's important, I guess, to maintain this tradition, this culture of making these foods and keeping them alive for the next generations to come. But what typically happens when big food companies get involved is they really start to smash all the smaller guys. Like, I mean, if you look at, look at, look at the supermarket shelves now, well, almost out of nothing, you've got, you know, like the two big guys in kombucha with huge ranges. And that speaks volumes on the power of multinational food giants. I mean, and so what happens to all those smaller brands? So I highly encourage people to firstly, really have a go at making it yourself, but secondly, also support the smaller guys that are doing it properly. And there would be some smaller kombucha manufacturers that are doing it properly, I think.

Totally. I think it's really good, just in general to buy from smaller businesses. And organizations and sources. I go to the farmers market a lot. There's this one guy who sells, I think, sauerkraut. He makes a bunch of different fermentations. And it's just so great to go speak to him, the actual person who made the product. And then I know my money is going straight to him so he can continue doing what he's doing. And there's that social aspect there of having the conversation, which I don't think you get with these larger companies. It's just kind of faceless, and it feels artificial. And I think there's a big community benefit of making them at home, too. Like, you make kefir for yourself, but then you share it with your friends, you share it with your family. Yeah, it's different.

Yeah, absolutely. I love that, that sharing aspect, James, because, you know, people in our community, they love to share the knowledge, share their grains, share photos and pictures and recipes. Because once you start exploring this world of fermentation, I mean, there's. There's so many different products you can experiment with. You might start experimenting with, you know, kefir to start with, because it's easy and fast. You know, you can. You could have water, kefir, milk, kefir ready in, like, two days. And then you might experiment with some kombucha, which is a slightly longer time frame. You're looking at seven to 10 days. And then you might explore fermented vegetables, which could take longer. It could be, you know, four weeks, six weeks. But I love it because I go down to my local farmer's market, buy the best head of cabbage that I can get, and I make a sauerkraut that's exactly to my palate with, you know, the right salt level, the right amount of caraway seeds, and that's the beauty of fermentation. And if you look at so much of these processed foods that are dominating the supermarket shelves, at some point, it would have had an origin of something that was pure and natural and culinary and made, you know, by a grandma or. Yeah. Small village. You know, I think about pasta sauces and the tradition with Italians, how they make their pasta sauces as a family, as a community. The same thing with salamis, you know, with Italian families making salamis. And I really hope that, you know, with. With making sauerkraut or kimchi, that people can get together and have a kimchi party or, you know, a sauerkraut party where you get together and you. And you with your friends and your family and you. You make A whole heap of sauerkraut. It could be. Maybe you're growing your own cabbage in your backyard with chilies, and then you're fermenting it to keep it kind of preserved through the. The next season until you wait for the next crop to come. And this is the essence of fermentation.

Yeah, it's awesome, man. It's. It's such a. It's just such a great thing to do to you. Really help everyone in your life and in your family. I think everyone benefits from you making fermented foods yourself.

And the other thing is, I love James about fermented foods is this term of, I guess, terraforming. And this is a concept they explore when they talk about, like, colonization of Mars and things. How do you. You terraform the. The environment to be beneficial and sustain life? And I think in many ways, making fermented foods in your kitchen is a form of terraforming, because anybody that makes fermented foods knows that, you know, there's the smells that come along with it, but then it's also the transfer of all this bacteria into your environment. And I know sometimes when I leave my veggies in the fridge, they literally start to ferment because my fridge is full of these fermentation type bacteria. My bench tops are full of these. These beneficial bacteria. So I'm literally coating my whole environment with beneficial bacteria. So rather than the old adage of nuking everything with the 99.9%, you know, cleaning product that just wipes everything out. And typically what comes back is not good. Guys, it's these really resilient types of bacteria that are typically not good for us. Now, how about we change the mindset to get people fermenting and making sure they're fulling their. They're filling their environment with beneficial bacteria rather than the nuke approach.

Yeah, that's awesome. I've noticed sometimes when I'm over at your place, it's got, like, this slight smell of fermentation. It's like, whoa. Like, you know, it's happening, happening. It's starting to terraform. And I think that's cool as an idea that when you're creating all these fermented foods, your. Your whole house becomes beneficial. Like, it's all that bacteria. I think it's great. I think, you know, there's so much positivity coming out of fermentation.

Totally. And it's. I mean, the gut is an ecosystem at a very micro level, and then the house is also an ecosystem. So as we go from Inward, outwards. How about we really clean up those environments, whether it be the gut, whether it be your kitchen, whether it be your garden. You know, like now science is even telling us that the, I guess the organisms in the soil are very important. So this is, this could be a whole new podcast to talk about the soil microbiome and the. What's happening in that space. But yeah, it's. I think it's fundamental that we transform the environments. We go. We move away from killing everything. And how about we promote life?

Yeah, makes sense. Makes me think of, you know, before I started making any type of ferment, fermented foods, I probably had maybe like zero contact with fermented foods. And. Yeah, just can't imagine that being good for a person.

Yeah, I mean, you essentially taking out a very important part of our, I guess, our diet. I think in Canada, I did see an article where in Canada they're actually looking at incorporating fermented foods as part of their food pyramid. And I think that's brilliant because if we can just think of fermented foods as being a food group and something that be beneficial to add to every meal. So you might start your breakfast with some kefir and some berries. So you've got the fermented foods there. Then you might have some, you know, your normal lunch with a side of kimchi or sauerkraut, or maybe you could have some water kefir as a beverage in the afternoon or. Or, you know, a glass of kombucha after dinner. So I think if we view fermented foods as being almost a food group in itself, then we can appreciate how it's important to include it in every single meal to maximize the benefits.

Yeah, totally. Couldn't agree more. Definitely. It's a. I think it's powerful to look at it. It's a food group in itself and it should be there. It should be at all the meals that you have. Whether it's in a beverage form or in a food form, it should be there.

And the other thing to underscore is that with fermented foods, it doesn't really need to be in its raw state to elicit a benefit. You can actually use it in your cooking. Because the rationale behind that is that the bacteria and the yeast, of course, through their fermentation process, have already done a transformation process to the food to produce these beneficial metabolites, beneficial substances. And even when you cook with the food, you subsequently kill the bacteria. There is still benefit from the metabolites and the dead Cells themselves. Wow.

Wow. So, I mean, something I like to do is I'll have oats in the morning and I'll take them to work and sometimes I'll put some milk kefir in there. But I'm wondering if I microwave that, am I, you know, am I going to kill the bacteria? Have I lost all the health benefits? But you're saying even if we cook those foods, there are still benefits, we're still getting benefits from them?

Absolutely. One thing I highly recommend is that people really look at not microwaving food. It is something that's not widely talked about, but I believe that microwaves can substantially from the way that they operate. This is just my theory, but it changes the structure of the food. That might not be as beneficial as if you use traditional types of heating processes like just the stove. So I think what we do is we tend to oversimplify. Macronutrients, protein, carbs, sugars. But what scientists are starting to discover that the shape of the actual macronutrient matters. So you could have, for instance, butyrate, which is beneficial. Scientists know that butyrate now is beneficial, but then there's different forms of butyrate. And this was talked about in the conference that I just went to about the isomers or isoforms of butyrate. And in the same vein, I think that we need to be mindful of the actual forms of these macronutrients, micronutrients within the food, because some your body can absorb a lot more easily and utilize than others. And I think it's good practice to not microwave.

Yeah. Okay. I'll try and lay off the microwave.

Yeah, it's something that I adopted a while ago and I. Yeah. Because I remember in uni when we studied microwaves, and I remember when my microwave broke, there was actually radioactive material within the microwave itself. So it made me a little bit wary of microwaves and wary of how food structure changes with different food processes, especially heating forms. Yeah. But definitely with the, you know, the soaking of your oats in the morning with kefir, that's brilliant because that's going to help neutralize some of these anti nutrient compounds like lectins and phytic acids. This is one of the reasons why, I guess cultures developed fermented foods was to neutralize anti nutrients. They just figured it out. They were pretty smart guys. They, they worked it out just by trial and error that, you know, if I soak beans or if I ferment beans or ferment oats or ferment things that typically contain anti nutrient compounds like lectins and phytic acid. They could neutralize the effect. And just to clarify what these phytic acids and lectins are, they're just natural defenses that the plant produces for self preservation. So plants are pretty smart. So they develop ways that they can survive and procreate and pass their genes on too. And this is one way to discourage predators like humans from consuming them. We're pretty much coming up to time. James, is there anything else that you wanted to discuss before we wrap things up?

No, I think that was good. I think I'm learning more and more about this whole scene and yeah, getting a clearer understanding of it all.

Wonderful. So listeners, hopefully you can understand the importance of fermented foods and I really encourage you to have a go and you know, at Nourish Be Organics, we're here to support you. So leave a comment. If you need further help to get started on your fermentation journey, do get in touch and we're happy to have you as part of our community. And again, as always, thank you for listening and we will speak next time. Thanks, guys.