Sebastien Bureau on The Science of Kombucha

This episode is brought to you by Nourish Me Organics, the Gut Health Store. Now, many of us are finding ourselves in isolation, and it's the perfect moment and opportunity to explore making your own fermented foods, which are amazing for gut health and also for the immune system. We've launched this stellar authentic sourdough making kit, which is literally flying off the shelves. So I encourage you to check it out in this week's episod episode. We're talking all about kombucha, so if you want to check out our Kombucha range, head to www.nourishmeorganics.com and you can get 10% off our complete kombucha making kit by using the code seb. Seb. Enjoy the show.

Hey, guys. Kerben Govender from the Gut Health Gurus podcast. I've got a background in food science and also delving into the world of functional nutrit. And today I have a fascinating guest. His name is Sebastian Bureau. He's an author of a book called the Fermentation Revolution, and he's also got a wonderful company called Menonova. Now, firstly, welcome to the show, Sebastian.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thanks so much for having me today.

It's my absolute pleasure. And I just wanted to make sure, because your name is tricky as most of the guests that come onto the podcast. So Sebastian Bureau, is that right?

Yeah, that's right. It's Sebastian Bureau. So it's French.

It's all French.

But Sebastian Bureau is pretty much how I go.

Yeah, that sounds. That's just right cool.

One of the reasons why I wanted to get Sebastian into the podcast is we were both involved in a fermentation summit pretty recently, and Sebastian was one of the early guys that I watched, and I thought he was absolutely hilarious. Sitting there watching, watching the video of him talking about kombucha. And your description of natto had me in absolute tears. I've never actually heard someone describe natto in such a sensual manner, and it was just so evocative the way you actually described it. So I said, I have to reach out to this guy and get him into the podcast because he's such a cool character.

Thanks. Yeah.

You know, I don't even remember what description I had. It's always. I always kind of like, start flying when I talk about natto. It is very sensual.

Yeah, it's slimy and gooey and, like, I can definitely resonate with the sensual aspects, but what I like to do at the start of every show is just to set the scene for the audience. And the question I always ask is, who is Sebastian Miro?

Wow, great question. Well, I'm. I like, you know, I always. It's funny because as, you know, as time evolves, you know, I always kind of jumped into. I jumped into fermentation. I'm just a guy who likes to like to go into all the. All the stores and just like, see, look at what I don't understand. Go like, you know, what the hell is this I'm holding? And ask the people around me, like.

How am I supposed to eat this?

And I always like to cook. I'm like, I like to move. And during the winter in Montreal, it.

Gets really cold and there's not much to do outside. Well, there is a lot. There's a lot of really cool stuff.

To do outside, but there's a lot of inside time. So my kind of creative space kind.

Of became food, right? Food. So food fermentation and all that. Now.

What'S really interesting is, I mean, what I find really interesting, you know.

When you ask that question, who is Sebastian Guro?

You know, I'm a food scientist. I have a background in molecular biology of plants and chemistry. I'm. I like to.

My favorite thing is making mistakes.

I love jumping into things that are scary and not dangerous, but, like, scary and then failing like a dozen times and then finally getting it right. Right now I'm on a nice sourdough. I'm like on a sourdough adventure, basically.

Just playing around with different types of sourdough and fermenting it in different ways and really getting.

Getting to really understand the sourdough and knowing very well that I'm not going to get anything even remotely satisfactory to me, you know, for at least a couple months. But at the same time, like, all.

My friends around me, I just give them all this bread and they're just like, this is amazing bread. I'm like, okay, perfect. That'. But.

That'S. And I kind of like, consider myself just a guy who just likes to, like, who's completely unmanageable. So one of my characteristics is that I'm completely unmanageable. So sorry to all my previous employers. And I eventually kind of just started my business, right? And I was just kind of like.

The idea was I'm just this guy who wants to do these things, but I don't.

Can't really work for anyone, and I have all these ideas. So how about, you know, how about I just make a business out of it and it's kind of like I'm.

Kind of just doing this thing, you.

Know, I guess I'm a businessman now.

I have a businessman, but I'm a fermenter, and I do all these things.

I really just consider myself like a guy who just likes to make food and has somehow figured out a way of making a living from it without.

Working evenings or weekends. Great.

It sounds pretty amazing. And I think there's a lot of parallels between the two of us because.

Exactly.

I'm also a food scientist. Also, I would say very, very creative, just like yourself. I would always describe myself as being also pretty unmanageable. Hence headed out and started my own business as well, called Nourish Me Organics. And very similar to you teaching people how to make fermented foods and having the kits and courses and. So I can definitely resonate with where you're coming from. But just as you were talking about the sourdough side, I'm not sure. Did you come across that news article recently with the guy that isolated some yeast from an old.

From an old, like, amphora or an.

Old kind of bread basket?

Yeah, I saw that.

I didn't read the article.

I didn't read the article.

But.

But I definitely. I looked over.

I was like, okay, this is interesting.

I mean, it kind of came off.

As a bit of a gimmick, but a lot of these things are gimmicks, right? It's all about the story. About the story.

Whether it makes an actual good product.

In the end is kind of irrelevant.

But I mean, as much as we like to. We like to, you know, build our.

Own stories with our products and.

And, you know, you can have a.

Honey that's made by a small producer.

That'Ll taste exactly the same thing as.

A honey made from a large producer who's not organic and all these things. But.

But we do attribute a lot more.

Value to the artisanly produced one because of the process.

And, you know, food is very much.

Food is very much akin to art. Right. So.

So, you know, if you have a really interesting process and a really interesting.

History, it definitely contributes to the enjoyment of the product.

Yeah, I just. I fed the thinking process pretty. Pretty interesting. Like to isolate a yeast strain from an archaeological dig, essentially, from thousands of years ago, and then actually making that into a product. Wow. It's like almost like stepping back in time to potentially what these people would have been consuming back then. It's like some form of connection to the past, which is pretty fascinating.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's.

Yeah, it's.

It's funny. There's actually, there's a brewery out in Quebec that also did the same thing. They went to an old Brewery from.

300 years ago, or the, you know, the relics of an old brewery and tried to get some yeast out of.

There, found a couple dozen types of yeast and then isolated the best one.

To make beer and made a beer from it. And so it was a really nice story.

What's really funny is that the techniques.

That are used are in no way.

Techniques that would have been used back then. And so, and so, you know, it's, it's kind of funny in the way.

That we're using techniques to extract what it would do.

But it could, it could have been just as effective to just kind of throw some flour, throw some flour into the pot, take it out, and then.

Make a sourdough with it. It could have given even something that was a little bit better.

So, yeah, I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan of using the.

Tools that you have, you know, just going like traditional and not, you know.

Not trying to impress anyone with fancy equipment. I'm like, with your hands, with your nose and your hands, there's some really.

Impressive stuff you can do. And in the end, it's ended up.

Being a lot better than anything that would have been made in a lab.

Totally and totally. And there's another interesting study that came out recently with sourdough, and they were actually doing some metagenomic analysis of the sourdoughs as they were being made. And the conclusion of the study was a lot of the bacteria were actually imparting. The bacteria imparting the flavor were actually forming part of that yeast species in the dough were from the hands of the baker. So that's pretty fascinating. So you've got some of the microbes coming from the actual flour, but then a large portion coming from the actual baker's hands, which is so interesting because it's like the baker is imparting his own genome or microbes into the flower that then elicits the flavor and the texture and all these different elements of the sourdough.

Yeah.

In my classes, one of my favorite questions, you know, we have a. We have a lot of, you know, we give. Mananova has. We have an online class, kombucha masterclass.com we have a lot of, like, person to person classes. And so I'll often spend, you know.

An evening with 30 people just making, teaching them how to make kombucha or.

How to make sourdough and things like that. And one of the questions I get is, okay, well, what about sanitation? How do I clean? And I go, you know what?

These are ancient techniques. The less you clean your hands, the better it will taste.

Which makes a lot of sense.

Exactly.

And I recall it was literally like microbiology second year, when they actually get you to do the plate of your hand and then watch all the microbes grow. And that's fascinating. And isn't it interesting how much the paradigm is shifted from being something that's like microbes being a dirty word and something that can potentially be harmful and kill you, to now microbes almost becoming like little heroes, which they are. But obviously there's some that are bad. But what modern science is starting to understand is most of them are actually good for us.

Yeah, exactly. Even the bad ones, you know, if you have just a little bit, they'll help your immune system, right? Depends which one.

Absolutely.

It's always. I mean, that's always what it is, right? You get to know something, the first.

Thing you realize is how dangerous it is.

And then as you learn more and more, you go, okay, no, we can use this.

Oh, actually, this is really useful. Actually.

Danger is like the dangerous part of.

It is very much like a.

It's much less relevant than we thought. But then again, it's a good reflex, right? It's like when I tell people. When I tell people, you know, I've.

Been mushroom picking for 10 years, like, they go, isn't it dangerous? I go, absolutely.

The first thing you should do that before you even learn any of the ones that are. That are good is learn the ones that are bad. Yeah, Once you've learned the ones that are bad, you can identify those really well.

Then go for the ones that are good.

Totally.

So it's a good.

It's a good reflex, but it's. But it's also. It's good that it evolves, Right?

Totally. I'm fascinated to dig in a little bit deeper with that mushroom conversation, because I've also recently developed this fascination for the fungi world and mushrooms. But before we do go down that rabbit hole, I just wanted to side note, we did an interview with a very interesting character, and people should go back and listen to that podcast episode with Dr. Jason Horolak and what he was saying in the context of all these different microbes and the good and the bad ones, there isn't really such a thing as good and bad. It's just humans putting our spin on microbes. But he was talking about this concept of an apex predator A lot of these microbes in the gut, for instance, Blasto, which is a common parasite, is what we call an apex predator. So in an ecosystem almost like a rainforest, these type of parasites and these other type of critters actually helping keep things in balance. It's the same thing with Candida. Candida is one that's very much. Candida albicans is the one that's bastardized a lot. But the Candida yeast actually digest a lot of heavy metals and break them down and help the body to get rid of it. So it's so interesting that even though there's some negative connotations with some of these bacteria, there is a purpose for them. Just the same thing with Helicobacter pylori or what some other ones, some of the sulfur, the sulfur producing ones as well, Bilophila or Desulfovibria, all of them in small levels are very important for the body. But when they become overgrown, that's when there's an issue. When there's too much of them.

Right, exactly. And they all kind of want to. They all kind of want to grow. They all kind of want their moment.

Right?

Yeah.

And, you know, we just consider them bad because, you know, because. Because, yeah, we put that spin on.

It or, you know, it's an opportunity. It can be opportunistic, but. Right.

Eliminating them is. Is oftentimes worse than is. You're even worse off if you eliminate.

All of them totally. There's often that kind of downstream impact when you take out the apex predator. Perhaps some of the other flora and fauna that were suppressed and under control then are allowed to become a bit more dominant in the ecosystem. So definitely the microbiome is a very young space and we need to be mindful on the things that we're doing in that space and what sort of conclusions we're drawing from it. But it's very interesting, I thought, guys, go back and listen to that podcast episode with Dr. Jason Horlack to dig deeper. But isn't it interesting that this conversation was supposed to be mainly about Kombucha, but we jumped down some pretty interesting rabbit holes already and I did want to come back to mushroom picking and mushrooms as a general topic, because I think that's something that's piquing my interest and I'd love to have a conversation. Tell us about your interest in mushrooms.

Right.

Well, you know, when I. When I was. When I. When I was realizing that I was.

I wasn't really a person that made.

The work for people first, I Went. I told myself, okay, I'm gonna get a domain, right? And then, like, because that's what people do, and I got, I got a.

Domain called mycohealth.net right?

Myco.

Yeah, like Myco, like mushrooms and mushrooms.

Yeah.

The idea was, you know, working with mushrooms and all the aspects of, of what mushrooms can, can do to help the environment, right there, they're kind of.

Like, I guess the opposite of the apex predator, right?

They're kind of like, there's the lowest one down on the chain. They're the ones who have the, like, the most equipment to break down the.

Things that compose our world, right?

What's the only thing that can, that can break apart plastic? Actually, no, bacteria too can do it too. But, but, but mushrooms are really good at it. You know, they're really good at just.

Kind of picking up the pieces.

They're kind of like, yeah, they're kind of like the bottom feeders of the micro environment of microorganisms. And I mean, my interest in mushrooms was early on when I started, you.

Know, I was starting fermentation. At some point.

I'm like, I went, okay, I'm just.

Going to become a fermentation guy.

I'm just going to learn everything there is about fermentation. And one of the things was mushrooms.

And mushrooms is really, really interesting.

I mean, when you're talking about things that are kind of like, you know.

If you take something, if you take.

A liquid put in a bottle, it.

Becomes fizzy in a couple days. You crack it open, you go, oh.

My God, I made bubbles.

It's amazing. Yeah.

Well, what's even more amazing is when you have, when you have, like, mushroom spores and you can put them in some grain and then, and then three.

Weeks later, you have this, like, these.

Giant, like, flowers of, like, mushrooms growing all over the place that almost pop out overnight, and they're just kind of.

Eating cardboard and you go, you go, it's really amazing, right? It's really magical.

And so I read a lot about mushrooms as well.

You know, Paul Stamets has a few.

Really good books.

A few really good.

Books about, you know, one is how.

Mushrooms can help save the world, right?

I think that's the book I devoured.

The quickest out of any book I've ever read.

I just kind of went through it.

In probably about 16 hours. But I mean, for me, mushrooms is.

There's a few different things to it.

One is rarity, right?

I was always going in grocery stores.

Looking for new flavors while going into the forest and getting things that are even rarer is definitely really interesting.

So knowing that the only way you.

Can get this flavor is if you.

Go out into a forest in September after it's raining, this is the only way you're going to be able to get this type of mushroom, because it doesn't last very long. But there's also the aspect of, you.

Know, there's the culinary aspect, which is something that I find really interesting, but.

There'S also the medicinal aspect. And we're really lucky in Quebec to have.

We have a reishi.

So we have a reishi. It's called the ganoderme des bruches. So it's like. It's not exactly the reishi, but it's like, in the family. And, you know, it has a lot.

Of the same characteristics. And it's close enough. I mean, it's kind of indistinguishable from the Chinese one.

And we have a lot of chaga as well.

Wow.

We have a lot of chaga. We have a lot of turkey tail. And so all these medicinal mushrooms are really great because they're the type of.

They're a nice excuse to just go hang out in the forest.

And then after that, and, you know, and on top of that, you know.

On top of them, and you can. You can also see how healthy a.

Forest is by the amount and type.

Of mushrooms that it has.

You walk into a forest that was.

Cut five years ago, you're gonna get a certain type of mushroom. You go around. Around buildings that have just been built, you're gonna get different types of mushrooms. And so it's a really, really interesting.

Indicator of kind of what. What's happening in this environment. You know, you go for.

You go for some older forests that are near rivers that are well hydrated and that are kind of like older. You'll get some chanterelles. And so a really nice way of.

Kind of just connecting with nature. And I'm a big fan, especially when.

We'Re making kombucha of seasonality. So, you know, just being able to.

Go out, pick, like, you know, what's.

The flavor of the week? Well, the strawberries just came out or the chanterelles just came out.

And so. And so mushrooms have been really interesting for me in the sense that, you know, something that's really fun and delicious to work with. And it's also the medicinal aspect.

So being able to use chaga on a regular basis, just as an infusion for, you know, for digestive or for any.

You know, it's Very general health.

Yeah.

And then being able to. Being able to even take some of.

These mushrooms, go to the mushroom shop and exchange them for some other. Some mushrooms that can be more expensive. You know, I've gone to the mushroom shop with a couple kilos of reishis and exchanged it for, like, a nice fresh truffle. Oh, wow.

And so, yeah, so it's been a really interesting. And it's.

It's also just a nice excuse to go to the forest. Right.

Just go out in the forest and find forests and just walk around in them and have an excuse and not just be aimless.

That's it. In Australia, I think the mushroom season's around. Like, it's just coming into autumn. I think it starts when the rainfall starts to pick up. But I'd say around probably April. This year was mushroom time. We also went out with the family. I had no idea what I was doing. Literally just walked out with the family. And we were very cautious about what we had touching. We just knew that white was bad. So if we saw any white mushrooms or those death caps or those really bright red ones with the white spots, we just kind of stayed away from it. But we were just kind of just observing all the different species of mushrooms, and there were so many after the rainfall, it's incredible. I didn't actually pick any with the kids because we didn't know what we were doing. So we did exercise a lot of caution, but it was more just spending time in nature and trying to get a feeling for what is actually out there, which is quite fascinating.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, for the first couple of years, I was picking mushrooms, but I.

Wasn'T eating them even.

Like, there's a couple I could identify, but I still.

It's really good to be more cautious than less.

And so, you know, in Europe, in France, for example, you can go to the pharmacy, and the pharmacist is supposed.

To be trained to identify mushrooms.

Wow.

Yeah. And so, at least that's how it used to be. And so you would go, you bring.

These mushrooms, you go, are these cool? And then the pharmacists go, oh, yeah, for sure.

You can do that here.

There's some mushroom shops that you can do that. So it's a really nice habit.

That's awesome.

Now there's Facebook groups and everything, and they'll help you out and. Because sometimes, you know, it's maybe the second year and you don't know, but.

There'S a really big patch of mushrooms.

You go, man, maybe these are edible.

You can pick them.

And I mean, and there are no mushrooms that are so toxic that you'll.

Get sick from just touching them. So.

But yeah, just as a. I was.

Just going to say there's.

There's apps now as well. There's. I think there's one called Ifungi or something like that.

Right. There's some good apps as well. It's always kind of hard, you know, when you're in the forest and it's.

Kind of like you're either getting bitten.

Or raining on you. And then. And then I had a book and.

The book just kept on breaking apart.

But it's fun, you know, you get.

The hang of it. You get to identify it. You know, if you have kids, you can kind of. And so.

So, yeah, mushrooms have kind of really been in the health aspect, the food.

Aspect, and just kind of the whole transformation aspect of it. The fact that you can, you know.

You can make solid blocks basically, like.

You know, mycelium bricks that can be used for various things that are kind of the same thing as Styrofoam.

I found that, you know, as an.

Individual who was kind of looking for tools to transform my environment through fermentation.

I found that mushrooms are really interesting avenue for that.

A really interesting avenue, especially since you can see them grow as well.

You know, it's the type of thing where you have a jar and then you inoculate it and then nothing happens. And a week later there's a little.

White patch and then that white patch grows and grows and grows and you can see and you go, oh, that's some nice rhizomorph. That's gonna make some great mushrooms.

And yeah, we do tempeh as well. Having work with that in a real world. In a real world. Having worked with mushrooms in a real world aspect, we have a website called Fermentation Revolution.

It's really. It's just Canadian, really.

And we make our own tempeh starter.

So.

And, you know, I grow my own tempeh and then I'll grow it on rice and a mason jar in a.

Very sterile environment, make it sporulate, dry.

It and just kind of like, you know, I know the ropes of growing mushrooms and fun because they're kind of especially growing something like tempeh is, you know, in the fermentation world, it's kind of like, you know, instant gratification. You know, it's like you're like at about 24 hours. Yeah, you know, it was. It was grains and now it's the solid White block, you know, that you can, you know, tell all your friends about. Put on Instagram.

It's.

It's definitely, like, a really satisfying type.

Of fermentation as well. So there's also these very delicate flavors. And it's just.

I don't know, there's something about it.

Something about mold and mold and mushrooms.

Totally. I'm all for the mold. There's a couple of side notes there that I'd like to underscore. I find the growing side we're going to get. I've already recorded a podcast with a guy called Tony Shield from a company called Fresh Cap Mushrooms, and that's going to go down the whole rabbit hole of actually growing your own mushrooms at home, which is fascinating. The conversation we had was around using plating techniques and agar and using spores and the PF tech kind of stuff. So we're going to go really deep in that rabbit hole. But that episode is coming up pretty soon. The other thing I find interesting is the whole. When you described the mushrooms being, like, part of that ecosystem, and the way I've heard it described was like, there. I think Stamets might have said this as well. They're like the information highway for that ecosystem. It's like the micro, like, for instance, like mycorrhizal fungi in a really old forest. It spreads everywhere and it connects the whole ecosystem together, and so it lends itself to keeping that whole ecosystem healthy. So there's a lot of parallels in that and also in the ecosystem, in our bodies, the actual impact of these. These molds and fungi and the production of enzymes and all that kind of stuff, which we can go down as well. So with tempeh making and koji as well. Another one is koji. They're very rich and natto. They're all rich in these enzymes, aren't they?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, different ones have different enzymes and. But they're really fun to work with. And they're definitely. I mean, there's definitely the, you know.

The whole Internet of the forest, which.

Is basically, you know, which is basically the mycelium.

They say the biggest organism in the.

World is a mushroom, I think in.

The Bible Belt somewhere in the United States.

And so, yeah, there's definitely a lot of complexity to it.

A lot of complexity, too. It's definitely something that's really interesting and something that's feared and unexplored as well.

People always go, I'm not going to eat mold. You go, okay, but, you know, if.

You eat a runny cheese. Well, the mold is what made it runny.

So maybe, maybe mold's not so bad.

Right.

So, yeah, there's definitely.

It's definitely this. It's kind of like it's.

It's oftentimes overlooked because, you know, mold.

Is, you know, associated with bad things generally.

You know, we encounter mold at home.

Usually it's not good, but.

But there's a hole.

There's a hole.

Yeah, there's a whole side to fermentation.

Which deals with mold.

And it can be one of the.

Most powerful tools for fermentation as well, for making enzymes or for making antibiotics or for making all sorts of different things.

Actually, antibiotics, penicillin came from penicillium, which is a mold.

So there's a ton of.

All of our best antibiotics are from.

Molds, pretty much all bacteria, essentially the antibiotics. We have to thank the microbe world again, the little heroes, for producing all these things that keep us well.

Yeah, exactly.

What I find really interesting with you, being a food scientist would understand this as well, is using these molds, like koji and the tempeh molds as well, to actually break down the proteins it into some very interesting flavors. Because you think about a soybean, when you taste a soybean by itself, just boiled soybean is so bland and non interesting. But then you add some koji to that and then all those proteins get broken down into these small little amino acids and glutamate and all these type of things that lend itself to that meatiness, the umami. And that's fascinating as a tool. It's just so interesting. You can even take some. You can make shio koji. Are you making shio koji?

Shio koji. Is that with. I'm really bad with the names, but I might be making that.

You probably are.

It's like this.

You make this really salty kind of koji rice and you blend it with water and you let that ferment for about a week and you get this kind of like a rice slurry that's quite salty. But because you've allowed the molds to be activated, they start to chop down all the rice into smaller pieces and then there's enzymes active. And then you can just smear that onto a piece of steak and leave that for a couple of hours or even a chicken breast or something like that. And then you get all these really interesting umami notes coming out.

Right? Yeah, no, I mean, I've explored that a little bit.

Like.

The short koji fermentations I actually even explored a little bit of those.

Meat aging techniques as well.

I don't know if they were successful or not, but there's definitely. The first time I made them, I did not eat them, actually.

I put. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, but yeah, there's definitely those enzymes. Yeah, you know, we're used to all these purified enzymes, but that's where they come from. You know, they come from old.

They come from, you know, they come from grains or molds or whatever. Mm.

And they're really powerful. You know, they can. You got to be careful with them because they're gonna. They're gonna.

They're gonna break down your steak.

They're going to. They're gonna take your proteins and break them apart into, you know, into these huge umami notes.

And there's a. There's.

Yeah, there's just a ton of stuff.

There's. Perhaps I have some prosciuttos that are.

That are aging in my lab right.

Now.

And they started growing a little bit of mold and just like, just.

A little bit of white mold, these like, white crystals.

And I know they're gonna, they're gonna make it. So, like, that white mold is gonna start. Is it gonna develop, like a little.

Bit of a cheesy flavor?

It's gonna help.

Help make it more.

Help make it more. More tender, faster and. But I mean, it's one of these things. It's one of these really long term things where it's kind of like you.

Just have this piece of meat and it's aging, and then six months into it you go, and.

And there's like these fatty.

These like, these fatty crystals.

They're like icicles that, like, come down from like the meat face of your. And you know, like, it's just kind of like, hello, I'm turning myself into deliciousness, you know, and yeah, I mean.

I hadn't seen them. It's kind of a rare sight. Like, you have to kind of have the same. But I hadn't seen in a couple years, but I just walked into it.

Last week and I was like, okay, these are. These are going to be really good.

You kind of touch it, you smell it and. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Well, that's the beauty of, I guess, the whole. The culinary aspect of food science, because I guess the two of us have been trained in all the science behind it, but then we still resonate so much to the creativity. And you look at these different molds and bacteria and techniques, like tools to create. So even though we're both probably quite Analytic. In our minds, being scientists, the creativity inside of me is bursting to come out and experiment with all these different palates that I have with different bacteria or different yeasts or different techniques.

That's what I love about food and.

Endless science aspect of it.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I'm at my. I'm at my best when I have. I basically.

We have a.

You know, one of our warehouses has a loading dock that's not used. And I went.

When we got. When we got this place, I went, this is mine.

And it turned it into my skunk.

Works, which is basically my.

My. My man cave or like my garage. Yeah, but it's a lab. Right. You know, I have my analytical tools.

Like, I painted the floor. It's clean, it's nice.

And I even put a little greenhouse in it.

So for the. For.

The greenhouse is kept at around 30 degrees Celsius and about 70% humidity.

So all the fermentations that happen there.

And I have just. And then I put some music on, wait till everyone's gone, and then that's where I'm at my best. That's where I just pump out. You kind of get in this little buzz, and then you just start pumping out creative stuff.

And once in a while something bites. You go, okay, this works. This is perfect. Sometimes you.

Yeah, once in a while you get something, you tried it, you're not sure.

And then a week later you taste it. It just makes you want to rip your clothes off. And then you know you've got something good.

Exactly. And that's the whole serendipity of it. Sometimes it's going to be terrible, and other times you're just gonna nail something that's gonna taste amazing. And then you've learned something so valuable.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And even if.

Yeah, if it's a mistake, I mean, actually, I'd say that. I'd say that all the coolest stuff I've done ended up just not. It was not at all what I.

Was trying to do. It was a mistake.

Like, I did. It went in a completely different direction. I went, oh, man, I never would have done this. And it's amazing.

Do you have an example or something?

You know, as I was saying that, I was like, he's gonna ask me for an example.

Yeah, sure. I mean, of course I have an example.

Okay, let's just keep going. And it's gonna pop out. I sent it to my subconscious. He's gonna process it.

He'll send it back in a couple minutes.

That's it. He'll come back when we're in flowing in conversation. So how about we segue on? Because the main intention for me was to talk about the kombucha side. So let's go full circle. We went down the mushroom kingdom, very interesting path. Come back to the other mushroom. Kombucha is often called a mushroom as well. That's scoby. So how about we talk about what got you interested in kombucha?

What got me interested in kombucha? Well, you know, it kind of just happened at the right time at the right place. I was studying molecular biology and I was realizing it was a little bit Machiavelli.

I was feeling a little bit Machiavelic. I had, like a little bit too much power.

I felt like the technology wasn't.

The technology was there for me to.

Be able to do whatever I wanted.

Basically, but not safely.

And I went, oh, I could do it and just kind of hope it doesn't mess up. And I went, okay, no, Seth, don't do that. Go towards microbiology.

Go towards fermentation.

So I went towards that and I was learning all these different fermentations. And then one of my old friends from high school, I think, yeah, we met in a park or something, and he had these.

He had these big dreadlocks down to his butt.

And he was like, oh, yeah. You know, we started making this thing, it's called kombucha. And it was part of a business, a raw vegan business.

This is 10 years ago. So it was, you know, it was out there.

And then they're like, yeah, we make kombucha.

It's awful.

You know, it's cool. We don't really. I mean, you know, we can. We could use some help. And I went, okay. So I jumped in. And then. And then they're like, yeah, there was just these 200 liter vats of stuff that was. Tasted amazing. It was probably pretty alcoholic, but, you know, it was, like, unstable. But there's so much stuff happening with.

This giant, like, pancakey thing. And I just.

I just fell in love. I just fell in love with the, you know, that hedonistic part of it. You go, oh, man, I don't know.

If I should be eating this, But.

I'm gonna do it anyway. And then. And just kind of jumping into that and then being able to. Being able to. So, yeah. And so I actually was working for.

Free for like two months just because.

I was like, how could you pay me for something that I love?

Right?

Because I was Doing other stuff. I was working real jobs. They're like, you know, I was working.

You know, jobs like in restaurants and stuff.

Oh, and of course you don't need to pay me. Eventually I was like, okay, I'm spending a lot of time here, maybe you need to pay me a little bit. But, but yeah, basically I fell into.

This place which was, it was just perfect.

It was, it was. I was coming out of university with all of my training, you know, like how to, how to, how to put things into boxes and squares and things.

Like that and turn them into straight lines and all these things.

And, and, and then these people had this thing. There's like, well, we're making this drink. It tastes really good, but we have, we don't know what's happening. We don't have any control.

Can you help us?

And so I just had kind of.

This blank slate and it was basically.

Like, it was like a head kitchen.

Of a little restaurant place, a main kitchen.

And it's just, they're like, okay, just, you know, do your thing. And you know, I, so. And I had already had a. I had a food microbiology lab and like.

In one of the rooms of my.

Two bedroom apartment to the dismay of my girlfriend at the time.

But.

But yeah, and so I slowly started moving my laboratory into that space. And it was great because I could just do whatever I wanted. Just kind of like, I was like.

I don't know what this is.

I'm going to start applying all the tools that I've learned and fail miserably time and time again at trying to figure it out. What's great about kombucha is even if.

You mess up, it still tastes good. So that's nice.

I don't think I ever threw out a batch kombucha. And so, and so yeah, so I fell into it and yeah, and it was just, it was, it was also part of a movement to kind of like, it's a type of person that's willing to kind of, you know, explore things that are unknown, that are a little bit weird, things that are made.

With tea, with traditional methods. And it's kind of this environment that was really interesting as well. So.

You know, educating people. There was also the fact that we were, you know, making kombucha, learning about.

It, but also teaching kombucha classes every week as well. And so you get this feedback of.

People and people feel really empowered. One of the most interesting things I found about kombucha or is like a kombucha business is that is that kombucha businesses, if you want to be a.

Successful kombucha business, you got to teach people how to make kombucha. Which is weird, right? Which is weird.

But the thing is, it's because people don't know what kombucha is. And so the only. The best way is to invite them.

In and just show them how you.

Do it and then give them a little scoby.

They can make it at home, tell all their friends, and kind of this guerrilla marketing and this very.

This very, you know, grassroots way of marketing, but also just kind of being a business and how that is a huge. A huge clash with kind of the.

Way food was going or the way.

You know, food had been for the past 50 years. Like, no, no, don't do anything at home. You're just gonna kill yourself. You're gonna get sick. You are not smart enough. You are not good enough to be.

Able to make your own food safely. So let us do it for you.

And so that culture of going, no, no, you can figure this out. Here's the easy rules of how to make things safely and make something that's delicious. And you know what?

Your kombucha is probably even gonna be.

Better than the one that we make could, because, you know, you're gonna have.

The time and you're gonna. Yeah.

And so. And so there was that.

That I really loved about it as well.

You know, I was.

I was. I was doing a lot of tutoring.

And health and in math and science.

At the same time. So education is very much part of.

My background as well. Yeah, I was doing, like 25 hours a week with. With kids who are having difficulty and all that. And so that's when, you know, that's when the company I was working for was very small back in the day.

You know, kombucha.

No one knew what it was, and.

So it couldn't really be a big business.

But. Yeah, so that's. That's kind of what made me fall.

In love with kombucha.

The fact that it's completely unknown.

The fact that I could kind of.

Just do what I want to it to help, kind of like stick it into a box and fail miserably.

But also, people have it still work.

But also the fact that it's a.

Type of business where that's very. It's very much empowering and it's very much about you.

And there's also the gut health aspect.

Right.

This is one of the central aspects of what we're Talking about is you get these people coming in, they're going, oh, I used to have all these.

Health issues, or I used to have this health issue. And of course, this is anecdotal. A lot of the kombucha research is.

Anecdotal or a lot of the kombucha claims are anecdotal. But basically you just get a ton of people going. I used to have ibs, but now I drink kombucha and I have no symptoms and it can go on and.

On and sometimes it gets dangerous.

People go, oh, I have this terminal disease or I'm very sick and I've decided to not take my own medicine.

And go for kombucha.

So as responsible individuals, we went, no.

No, you should still do traditional medicine.

I mean, still do modern medicine. But you can drink kombucha as well.

And it's not going to hurt and it tastes good and, and all these things.

But that having been said, that line between medicine and food is a line that has been ridden by kombucha for.

A really long time. Right? Because it's made with tea, because you can put a lot of different botanicals.

In it that have health benefits, but.

Also because of just the fact that drinking kombucha makes you feel better.

You know, that's, that's a, that's a fact. Producing kombucha makes you feel better. Like, does it make you feel better than drinking, you know, like a, is it like a flat soft drink, flat, like commercial cola or something when you're sick?

Who knows? Right?

But the reality is that, you know, kombucha is made by people with real plants, usually organic ingredients. And so all these things, all these.

Things are kind of the perfect storm of, of good food.

Let's dig into it a little bit more because a lot of people will be interested to know what, from your point of view as a scientist, that molecular biology background, now what are the things from a scientific perspective? And I get a lot of the studies are non existent. There's a lot of anecdotal evidence in terms of the benefits of kombucha. But from your point of view, let's talk about the compounds in kombucha that could potentially be beneficial. And also from your experience, the microbes in kombucha that could be beneficial.

Right? Well, let's start, I mean, I'm very well versed in the, I mean, in the kind of chemical components of it. So let's talk about that after. But I'd like to start about the microbiology. Start with the microbiology of it because.

It'S kind of the.

It's the hottest subject and it's kind of like it's always nebulous and it's always. And you know what? I think that kombucha, my opinion, I'm trying to figure out how I could.

Say this possibility of getting sued.

My opinion is that, is that kombucha does have the same role as a probiotic. The microorganisms in Kombucha will have the same role as a probiotic. So we'll have the effect of a probiotic as probiotics are defined in their function. That having been said, the nature of kombucha, it being wild and artisanal, makes.

It so that there's a ton of.

Different types of kombuchas in terms of what their composition are, even though there's.

A central core.

That is Comag, Tobacter, Acetobacter and retinomyces.

So those are going to compose about 50% of your microorganisms generally.

But basically together, all of these microorganisms that are happy, that are active, because.

You know, kombucha is an active fermentation. It's not a finished fermentation. There's still stuff happening.

And the fact that the quantity of them and the fact that there's a.

Whole consortium of them together.

Contribute, like it will contribute to gut health. It will contribute to a ton of different things that are linked with probiotics. Of course, on a case by case.

Basis, from a kombucha to kombucha basis.

And even depending on how long you.

Fermented for, it can have different.

Effects on your body. But I think the microorganisms that are in Kombucha do have, I'm going to.

Say, huge health benefit.

I'll pause you there for a sec before you go on. What's the optimal fermentation time for maximum probiotic in exclamation marks?

Well, it depends, right? I think a short fermentation is going to have a lot more.

Well, not, I think, I mean, I.

Know a short fermentation. So let's say seven days at a high temperature will have a lot more yeast in it.

It'll have a lot more yeast.

It'll have. It will have kind of a lot more yeast in it, probably more alcohol. And so yeast, in my opinion, can be more associated with kind of like stimulating digestion. So, you know, short kombucha, a short kombucha, a short fermentation, Kombucha with higher.

Sugar that's very happy, very yeasty, is.

Something that's going to be like, kind of stimulate digestion a little bit more, going to kind of like speed up.

Things if they need to be sped up.

You know, it's the, it's the type that's going to have a higher amount of B vitamins, like B12 and things like that. And in sheer, like, mass, kind of.

Like in the amount of mass of microorganisms, like in terms of if you.

Dried them like that, that's going to.

Have the most amount of microorganisms. Microorganisms.

Whereas if you fermented for longer, say 30 days, it's going to reset or 30 or 45 days, it's going to.

Resemble more of kind of like a.

Kind of like a vinegar. In which case. In which case you're gonna have a.

Lot less yeast, a lot more bacteria.

I feel like the bacteria itself might.

Have a bit less of an effect.

Like kind of visual, like a more perceptible effect on health, but it might.

Be able to do a lot of.

The same things as apple cider vinegar. But yeah, I guess it's mostly if you want.

If you want. Right.

I mean, there is not much Lactobacillus.

In Kombucha as well. If there is Lactobacillus, it's at the very, very beginning and it's from your hands. And so that would be.

If you want, if you want a probiotic Kombucha, don't wash your hands, make a kombucha and ferment it for 24 hours, basically, if you want Lactobacillus in there. But you're not going to get. You're not going to get any more than that.

So that's a very short.

But if you're going to do that, don't do that. If you're going to do that, just make water.

Exactly right.

And so, yeah, so actually, as it dies, as it goes down and it gets older, what you get is not.

So much something that's centered on the microorganisms.

I mean, I think something that's centered a lot more on these fermented molecules, like these fermented, like your sugar and.

Your different chemical components that are produced during the fermentation.

So that segues into the chemical aspect of it.

But no, go ahead.

So just to summarize there, and we're pretty much coming up to time, but I think if you wouldn't mind, we've got a few little rabbit holes to dig in.

Absolutely, absolutely. I got.

Yeah, yeah, the sun's still out, so we're good.

Beautiful. And so just to summarize, it seems like according to what you're saying that perhaps like a seven day ferment with a quite a yeasty brew could lend itself to better digestive benefits.

Well, from the microorganisms.

From the microorganisms.

So basically. Yeah. So at a short fermentation, because we were just talking about the microorganisms.

Right. And so, yeah, if you're looking for.

The microorganisms to really be super active.

Then a shorter fermentation is going to.

Have a, is going to have like.

At seven days you're probably at your peak in terms of numbers of microorganisms, especially yeast.

And so. And so.

Yes, but.

But in my opinion, I'd say most of the digestive aspects of the kombucha are linked more to the chemical aspect than the biological aspect.

Okay.

So that'd be a good segue to jump onto the chemical aspects. But before we do, I do want to come back after that to commercial kombuchas versus home brews because a lot of the homebrews are shorter, the commercial ones tend to be longer up to that kind of 30 day mark. But we'll park that and we'll come back to it. So how about we jump into the chemical side of kombucha and the benefits?

Right.

So I mean the most obvious chemical.

Component in kombucha that's available and you.

Can taste is the acetic acid.

So the organic acids, mostly acidic and.

Gluconic, but, but acidic is kind of the one that we're most familiar with. And that one is very much the same thing as apple cider vinegar. And so apple cider vinegar is known.

To help with digestion, it's known to.

Help with ulcers, it's known to help.

With regulation of sugar a little bit from the studies I've seen.

And it's known to help with digestion. And so that's very much a large part of, of what is easily quantifiable in kombucha as giving health benefits. Apart from that, there's also the plants that you put in there. So there's this process called deglycosylation. Whereas a plant molecule that is not quite active yet becomes active through fermentation.

So they'll take a glucose off of it and it becomes more bioavailable, which means you can absorb it.

So at any given, in any given infusion of leaves or Whatever. You'll have a certain percentage of the.

Molecules that are active and a certain percentage of the molecules that are not active.

They're labeled for transport. You know, they're made in one part.

Of the plant and debris brought to another or of the cell.

Fermentation, especially kombucha fermentation will make it so that instead of having 30% of.

The molecules that could be, that could.

Be good for health or bioavailable, you're going to have 40, 50, 60, 70. That's why long fermentations are good because as the fermentation goes on, more of.

These molecules get eaten up. For example, one of the most concrete examples is there are antioxidants. So catechins.

One of the most bioavailable forms of catechins is rutin. R U T I N. And so that is something that goes, that it.

Gets, becomes that it's produced and becomes.

More available or that becomes more dominant.

As the fermentation goes.

Is that compound in the tea itself?

Yeah, exactly. So you'll have that Rutin is there, but it's in another form.

I don't remember the name, but it's.

In another form that's not bioavailable.

And so if in your gut, you can.

In your gut, in a healthy gut.

You'Ll be able to digest some of it and make it bioavailable as well in your gut.

But it's nice to have it pre chewed for you.

It means you'll absorb more. That's what the fermentation does.

Awesome. That's amazing.

Basically a lot of plant molecules do that. If anyone who's made cannabis is legal in Canada now, if anyone who's made.

A cannabis kombucha, if you ferment it for long enough, it gets pretty strong.

You go, wow, I wasn't expecting this.

From this little amount of weed, but it does the trick.

And so. But it's the same thing for any plant. Same thing for any plant. You know, of course when you're talking about science, you don't want to generalize.

But this bioavailability is something that is.

Seen throughout.

Bioactive molecules.

Absolutely. Hemkovich is pretty hot down here. Cannabis is illegal in Australia, but we are permitted to add hemp oil, which is very popular in some kombucha ferments.

Right, right. Yes.

CBD oil. CBD oil is getting. It's actually, it's funny because in Canada we're not allowed to put CBD oil into kombucha yet. So, you know, each his own Everyone has their own. Their own way.

And how about. Is it. Is there any potential combinations that you'd recommend adding, for instance, a particular herb or spice that could be more bioavailable after the fermentation?

Well.

I saw some patents about it, and the examples used in patents were, I think, thyme. Thyme was one of them. What's another one? Well, I mean, tea is kind of like the most obvious one, and that's.

Kind of what the kombucha fermentation is all about.

But I mean, ashtragalus, ashwagandha, ginger, not so much. Ginger is pretty bioavailable already. But what else? I mean, I could go through some recipes. I mean, basically any one of my favorite.

One of my favorite traditional.

One of my favorite plants is called atiyayo.

It's from Haitian traditional medicine, Caribbean traditional.

Medicine, atiyo, it's a basil family. But it's kind of like the. It's kind of like the cure all.

Of Haitian traditional medicine. You put ati ayo and it makes it taste delicious.

What's really great about this deglycosylation is.

Actually it makes it more volatile, which means that it also creates more aromas. So let's say you have a kombucha that's ready. You fermented it with just green tea.

Or black tea, and then your rose.

Bush outside is doing pretty good. So you just decide you're just going.

To throw a couple roses in there and let it sit overnight. You get this huge explosion of flavors and aromas overnight from this. The glycosylation as well. It's a mix of that and the.

Bubbles that kind of like just throw everything, everything into your nose. But.

But there's definitely like. I mean, the same thing goes for fruit as well. Fruit, if you put strawberries into your kombucha, that taste will die down within two days.

So it's kind of the opposite. The. The kombucha eats all of the flavors.

And so fruit. Fruit then has a tendency to not really get.

The flavors don't really come out as much fruit.

They'll slowly die down, whereas with herbs, they get better. Now, we actually, this week we made a kombucha with celery, and it tastes really good.

We just made it. It's two days old.

And I really hope the celery flavor lasts. So today we're like, do you think.

It'S going to go like fruit or like herbs?

Is it going to get better over time or worse?

So we'll see how it goes you.

Guys can tune in next time and.

I'll tell you how it went.

How about some of the spices? Could we use, like, pepper or turmeric?

Yeah, actually, the turmeric pepper mix is.

One of my favorites.

My dad wouldn't shut up about it for years. He's like, always just whenever you're using turmeric, just put black pepper in it. I went, okay. And then one day, I made a kombucha with it. We did those with pineapple and a little bit of pineapple and some lemongrass, and it's just, like, bright yellow and amazing. And, yeah, I feel like that's probably. I'd say, in terms of, like, if you want a really strong combination, well, you take that, you know, that Ayurvedic.

Combination and then ferment it, and you're just.

I mean, I'm sure if we sent it to the lab to look at.

The antioxidant content just be, you know.

Off the charts, I suspect so as well.

Yeah.

And I think. I think the beauty of this conversation is it's just to encourage people to go out and experiment with different flavors. I mean, you've got this beautiful kombucha base that lends itself to making a lot of these medicinal herbs and spices more bioavailable. But aside from that, just have fun experimenting with different flavor combinations and fruit combinations and see what you can come up with. And then you might make your little magic elixir that you can share with your family.

Exactly. You know, if.

Yeah.

You know, making food. You know, making good food, food that's healthy is one part of it. But feeling connected to your environment, you know, feeling connected to your garden and, you know, feeling, you know, getting that satisfaction and that empowerment of, you know.

Making your own products and making them delicious. And.

I'd say that probably makes. That probably contributes to your health just.

As much as drinking the kombucha.

Agree. And the seasonality aspect of what's available and what's in the. In your garden, that also helps as well.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's all these things in your garden.

You never know.

You know, you live in the city, all you can grow on your balcony.

Is rosemary and basil.

That's a great. That's great for kombucha. So, you know, you're not going to eat lamb every day, but you can.

Make a kombucha that's a rosemary kombucha that'll last you three months.

Exactly. And I'm feeling we probably need to do around two at some point. Because we could go on for another hour. But we have to start to wrap now because I want to be mindful and respectful of your time. So how about we start to close and talk about the difference between say, pros and cons of perhaps making something at home versus store bought product.

Okay, well, so pros and cons. I mean, ideally it's both, right? I mean, store bought product. Store bought kombucha is great. Store bought kombucha is eating up the.

You know, the traditional soft drinks market, which means that people, instead of drinking.

You know, something that's made with extracts, caramel color and 90 grams per liter sugar, people are drinking a product that's made by artisans, that's low sugar, lower.

Virtually absent of sugar actually in the Australian market.

That's made with plants. That's made with plants. And you know, that's, that's, you know. Yeah, maybe local as well.

And so, you know, all these, all.

These things are kind of how I make peace with large businesses making kombucha. And they also make it accessible.

Accessible to the person who doesn't have.

Time to drive to the other end of town and get it from a small artisan. You know, they can, they can just.

Go to your local. Woolworths.

Yeah, Woolworths or Coles.

Yeah, iga. You can just go to your local store and just get whatever. And that becomes a habit.

And then you have that habit of good stuff. And then you can, it's just like beer.

You start off with something really, really normal. And then, you know, and then people.

Get curious and go and explore the market.

And so it's healthy. Or people explore the market or make it themselves.

So it's something that's definitely something that's healthy.

Kombucha commercial kombucha on the market is healthy.

It's great.

And it's nicely fermented. And the thing is, kombucha is touted as a health product. And so kombucha companies put a huge emphasis on health.

Low sugar.

Sometimes they'll add probiotics. Add probiotics because people were drinking kombucha because, you know, it made them feel.

Like they were taking probiotics.

But then businesses couldn't claim to have probiotics because of the way, you know, because they're not proven to have probiotics.

On them, which is, which is fair. Right.

So they would add probiotics into that.

Which just makes a better product.

On top of that, you know, they.

Want to make sure they have a good amount of antioxidants they're just trying to make the healthiest possible product because that's what people want to buy.

And so, and that, and it's also control, you know, that's non alcoholic.

It'S.

Non alcoholic and they're good products.

And it's a nice entry, it's a nice entry into the world of kombucha. And if you want to stay there, then that's great.

If you want to go down the.

Rabbit hole, then you can as well.

Making kombucha at home, super empowering. Usually people will go for a little.

Bit higher sugar content. It'll still be half of what you'll find in soft drinks, but you'll still have maybe twice as much as in a commercial kombucha. Just because sweeter is easier tasting, it's easier to get it right.

You know, in terms of, in terms of getting like a kombucha buzz.

Well, that kombucha buzz is very much.

Alcohol linked and Australia is really warm.

So if you have a 4 liter.

Jar and you're putting, you know, 7%, 7, 8% sugar and it's tasting really.

Good and fizzy sparkling in four days.

Well, probably you're at 2 to 3% alcohol. And so you get that little kombucha.

Buzz, which makes you feel good. Right?

You know, alcohol is, alcohol is a medicine as well, I think.

I don't know, I just said that.

But I think it helps with delivery of stuff. But anyway, you know, it helps with.

Stress and you know, it's a social lubricant. And so there's that, the fact that you can share with your friends as.

Well, you know, like the best thing you can ever bring. You know, I'm a beekeeper. Whenever I go anywhere, I bring honey. And it's the best thing you can.

Ever bring is something you made. Right.

You know, people, especially in today's world, people don't really want you to be a consumer and just bring some crap.

That you bought at the store that.

They'Re just going to throw out. But if you bring a really nice.

Product that you made with things from your garden, then there's that you can also put.

There's also that restriction of, in that.

Comparison of commercial kombucha versus homemade kombucha.

You can put a lot more stuff in your kombucha.

There's a cost restriction to commercial kombucha. It needs to work.

You can't put, you know, you can't put. What's an example, something really expensive, manuka honey in a kombucha that you'll sell on the, on the shelves because it's going to cost, it's going to, it's.

Going to, you're going to be putting.

It like a dollar's worth of manuka honey in each bottle, which means that.

Your bottle needs to end up costing.

Like 7, 8, 9 dollars.

I don't know, it just doesn't make sense.

But at home you can put manuka honey in your, in, you know, you can put like a couple teaspoons of manuka honey in your 4 liter jar of kombucha and still going to cost you less than if you bought it at the store. And so you can use these super, super high quality ingredients that you'd never.

Be able to find on the store.

And you can also have this kombucha that's just kind of like really, really fizzy.

And you can kind of just make it exactly the way you want it. And you can put ten times more tea. You can put all the plants you want. You can just, you can make a.

Kombucha that you'll like, but that no.

One else will like because it's yours.

And so, and so, you know, from a health standpoint, I'd say, I'd say, I would not, I wouldn't generalize that store bought kombucha is less healthy than homemade kombucha, I think, because, you know, it's always go, is this healthy for me?

Well, it's got no sugar but this.

And that and this one has more.

Sugar, but you made it with herbs and blah, blah, blah.

So it's really hard to say what's healthier and what's less healthy. But I'd say ideally what you're doing is you're making kombucha once in a while and connecting with it and your friends are making kombucha. But if you're in the middle of nowhere and you want in the middle of nowhere and you were just itching.

For some kombucha because if you're making.

Kombucha at home and you might be addicted and that's okay, but you get.

That little craving, right? You start to get itchy. You just like, I just really want.

Some kombucha, it's okay to buy some.

And it's going to be just as good.

And so, you know, I feel like, I feel like the market is evolving.

In a good way where kombucha is staying healthy, kombucha is staying good.

You know, even though some of the techniques might not be as artisanal as the ones that are at home. You know, it's not just jar with the Scoby. You know, sometimes they're putting CO2, and there's. Sometimes they're blending it, and there's all.

Sorts of stuff that's happening, but it doesn't make the product any less good.

From a health standpoint. It just makes it less artisanal. And so it's more of a. It's more from a, you know, a story standpoint. And so if you want a story standpoint kombucha, then you can go to the corner store that makes their own kombucha and you can encourage them, you know, encouraging the economy and all that.

But from a health standpoint, I'd say. I'd say.

I mean, I'd even adventure. I didn't venture saying that, you know, some kombuchas are even more probiotic than.

Your homemade kombucha because they put a.

Ton of probiotics in them. And so. And so I think those are the pros and the cons.

Both are good. Yeah, both are good.

Both are good. Great summary. And what I love is, and you mentioned it earlier, it's just giving people an option to move away from your soft drinks. And it's a great little gateway into the world of fermentation, because I would say kombucha is the one that's probably got the most mainstream adoption out of any fermented food that's probiotic, based on the market at the moment. So it's a good entry to people to explore kombucha. And then they might explore things like sauerkraut water, kefir milk, kefir, tempeh, natto, miso, all these other beautiful fermented foods. And so Sebastian will start to wrap if there was. And I always ask this question because it is the Gut Health Gurus podcast, and I want to give someone something actionable to take away from the conversation. So if there's one thing that someone listening to this podcast could do for their gut health, what would it be?

Oh, for your gut health, don't eat transformed foods. I mean, eat as little transformed foods as possible.

It seems complicated, right?

But also, I mean, it's complicated because.

What'S being offered to us is foods.

That are, you know, that are basically. You could chew them if you have no teeth, and, you know, they're just.

Made to basically just be instantly assimilatable by you. And so.

So that means that you're feeding all.

Of the most vicious microorganisms, and you're.

Not kind of the most opportunistic microorganisms.

And you're not giving a chance to the ones who are a little bit.

Who are really better at opening locks.

To eat their stuff. Well, you eat things that are less.

Transformed, eat things that are less transformed, you get a much better gut biodiversity.

You absorb things more slowly and you just.

And then your gut rewards you for it. And so that's the single thing. Of course, as a kombucha guy or as a fermented foods guy, I would.

Say eat more fermented foods. And of course fermented foods are great. And actually fermented foods don't count as transformed foods. They're non transformed foods.

But if you want to be realistic and score the most amount of points possible, then just, just stay away from transformed foods.

I'm so glad you said that, Sebastian, because as a scientist and as food scientists, the two of us have, I'd hazard a guess, have been to many hundreds of food manufacturing sites and being involved in many projects, involved in. I think you mentioned transformed foods. I think in Australian terms would say processed foods or ultra processed foods. But I think we're pretty much on the same page.

Yeah, yeah, processed foods is the same. I was using a calc from French, but yeah.

Say transformed foods in French, but yeah, processed foods.

Processed foods. And I'm so pleased you said that because it seems so simple. Just stop eating.

Just don't eat crap.

Don't eat crap like processed foods. It's not that hard to make such a huge difference to your gut health and your health in general. So huge. Thank you for being on the same thinking as me. Because that's exactly what I would have said. I would have said eat less processed foods, start to introduce more.

We're food scientists, right? We know. Just don't eat that.

That's it. It's not good for you. It's definitely not good for you. And I've felt crap for many years and you wouldn't believe it, Sebastian. I was 14 kilos heavier than I am now. And you know when you work in industry, because you get access to all these samples, like all the samples, and you have like your little. They have like these like almost a store in the factories where you can go and buy all the product for like a staff discount. It was all of that. So I was like, I lived off processed foods because I was in that industry and I was so. I felt miserable. I looked miserable. It was just a Terrible time in my life. So 100% agree. So someone listening to this podcast, you have totally blown their mind away. They're super engaged with what you have to say. They want to work with you, they want to read your books, they want to get in touch with you. How can people find you and how can they access your books?

Well, the books are on Amazon, so we have French, English and Italian. And my website is manonova.com so M A N N A N O V A.

You can look at the link.

I'll link it. I'll link it. Yeah, I'll put a link.

And yeah, if you want to learn about. If you want to learn everything I know about kombucha, but we just launched.

The Kombucha Masterclass, so.

It'S many dozens of hours of videos where it's basically a class that I give that I.

Perfected over the years, in my opinion.

And there's that. So that's kombuchamasterclass.com and apart from that, I hang out at the brewery called Mabraslique, which means my brewery, a cooperative in Montreal. So if you just walk in, we always have a couple of kombuchas on tap and you can ask for me. And who knows, I might show up.

That's awesome, Sebastian. That was such a fun conversation. I really enjoyed chewing the fat on the science with you and getting a deeper understanding from someone that's an expert in the world of kombucha. So huge amount of gratitude, Sebastian, and hopefully we'll get to meet in person sometimes.

Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you so much for having me. It was a ton of fun. And yeah, if you were interested in following up with this, it'd be.

It'd be my pleasure.

We must do a round two because there's so much more to talk about.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We'll go. We'll figure it out.

We'll figure it out. Awesome, man. Thanks, Sebastian.

Perfect. Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you. Take care. Thanks.

We hope you enjoyed this episode of the Gut Health Gurus podcast with Sebastian Bureau. Sebastian's an absolute legend when it comes to making kombucha on a commercial scale. So if there are any people interested in making kombucha commercially, I encourage you to check out Sebastian Bureau's work. His website and also a link link to his online Kombucha making course specifically for manufacturers is available in the show notes, and they are available at www.podcast.nourishmeorganics.com. guys, your support means the world to us. So please leave us a kind review on your favorite podcasting app and also share with your friends and family members. Now, this episode was mainly about kombucha making. And we have an amazing fermentation group called the Gut Health Gurus and that you can find us very easily on Facebook by just searching for Gut Health Gurus. We have a thriving community. We have a thriving Instagram Facebook. So guys, check. Just search for Gut Health Gurus and you'll find all this information. Guys, until next time, take care, stay safe, be well.