The Truth about Probiotics

Hey, guys, welcome to another episode of the Gut Health Gurus podcast with James. He's got a background in psychology. And myself, Cribben Govenda, food scientist and founder of Noshmi Organics and Allele Microbiome. James, what a couple of weeks particularly I've had and I've just come back from the Gut Brain Axis in Paris and just spend some amazing time with the leading, I guess, microbiome experts in the world. So I'm so excited.

Yeah, it's awesome to have you back, man. And I'm really keen to hear what you've learned. I mean, you've just been listening to the thought leaders in the microbiome and Gut Health. I'm so interested to hear what they've got to share and what the new information information is. So, I mean, let's just get into it. I'd love to hear what you learned and.

Yeah, absolutely. I think, I think the first thing to say is that I'm super. I'm super. Jet lag still. So my brain is like not a hundred percent and this is going to take a couple of weeks for me to adjust. But I, I just, I guess the, the key, the key thing for me is that there is so much information coming out in the microbiome and it was very evident that even the experts in the field are still finding their feet. And it's very much. We're in cowboy territory where it's such a novel science. It is such a novel science and it's going to take me quite a few weeks to digest all the information from the actual conference and, and distill it into something that's simple for our listeners to understand where it's at. But what I thought we would focus on today is pretty much around probiotics because there were two studies that created a whole lot of turbulence in the gut health probiotic world over the last, I think it's probably a month. And now we're seeing the blogosphere really started to hone in on these couple of studies and in many ways really sensationalize the, I guess the titles to clickbait. So I think we need to be very wary of that. It's, and don't get me wrong, it's been hyped up, it's highly sensationalized. The researchers behind these studies are top notch. You know, you've got the guys from the Weizmann Institute in Israel who also did the personalized nutrition study as well, which was groundbreaking. So we're talking about very credible scientists, very credible journals. We're talking cell. So this is solid science. But it does bring into question what's happening in the probiotics world, what's happening in terms of the marketing around these products. And I'm actually really happy that it's brought to light that probiotics firstly are not a panacea. Probiotics are not created equally, they're so different. It's just a broad terminology that's been used in industry mainly as a marketing tool. So I really want to differentiate what we do here at Nourish Me Organics, which is primarily fermented foods, to probiotics. So I think a good place to start is let's dig into these studies and have a look at what the researchers actually found and then use that as a springboard to discuss this further.

Yeah, sure, let's. Let's get into it. I think, you know, I'm always researching new articles about gut health and that whole scene, and I've seen a lot of sensationalized articles coming out, some for probiotics, some against it. But a lot of those articles speak as though it's a definite. Like this is it. Probiotics are this or they're that. And, you know, as someone who's not as well versed and it's confusing for me, Are they good? Are they bad? I don't know. I'm confused with all the articles coming out.

I mean, so confusing. I mean, if we, if we're confused and we're kind of like we're in this gut health, probiotics, fermented food space, imagine the lay consumer out there that's been bombarded by all these. These articles, some good and some sensationalized. So for a consumer, it's an absolute minefield. And that's what we're here to do, is really to cut through all the clickbaits, all the sensationalization, and really get to the bottom of what these studies are actually saying. So the first thing they say, the first finding was the fecal microbiome isn't really the gut microbiome, but I think we've actually known that for a while. I mean, if you look at, I guess, the advent of fecal analysis, how we used to test the gut in the past, we're talking plate technology. So, you know, you might have done it in your science class where you're actually plating organisms on a petri dish and then growing them. But the limitation of that was that it couldn't pick up bacteria that can't really thrive without oxygen. So it's really skewering it. And that's why E. Coli, which is a type of bacteria we're overrepresented in the early days. So the technology moved from, from plate to DNA, which is a huge step forward. But I agree with the research. I mean, you're taking a sample of fecal matter, which is really our best guess for what's happening in the gut. But the gut has very different regions and there's going to be differences between those different regions in the gut. Like, for instance, the colon will be different and the upper areas of the large intestine are going to be different. Then between the actual lining of the gut to the inner layers are going to be different. So we get that. But this is a huge step forward and it will improve. And it's the most non invasive way that we can actually test someone's gut. I mean, the studies were actually taking samples from within the gut itself. But that's a very invasive technique. You with me? It's like it's invasive, like it's not something that's cheap and easy to do. But at least with the DNA technology we have, using the fecal samples, you, you're not blind. You have some indication of what's going on and it's very clear if there's dysbiosis going on.

Gotcha. So the fecal test can give us some insight into what's happening in the gut, but what we're now finding out is it's not giving us the entire picture and we can go deeper into understanding what's happening in the gut.

Yes, absolutely, James. And I think as the technology improves in sampling methods and ways that we can obtain samples from the gut improve, so will the accuracy. But case in point was that plate, you know, using petri dishes was not accurate and that was part of our regime for decades. So I get where the studies are coming from and I agree, but I think we're improving and we've got some data rather than no data, which is a positive thing.

Yeah, look, I think that speaks to what you were saying about. It's an, it's a new area that we're trying to figure out and it seems like we're just slowly starting to understand more and more what's the best way to study this? How do we get more knowledge and more data about it? It seems like it's a really formative point in the whole gut health microbiome scene, totally, 100%.

So what we'll do is we'll move on to the next finding. Was that Probiotics don't necessarily colonize the gut. And this is something we've known for a while.

I've heard you say this a bunch of times before.

I've said it a while because I was looking. I followed the studies very closely. But think of probiotic bacteria as factories, like these little factories that produce chemicals, compounds, metabolites, whatever you want to call it. They're producing substances that are either beneficial or not so beneficial for the body. And probiotics are producing some form of compounds that are going to be beneficial for the body. Now what the they're saying is it doesn't necessarily colonize the actual gut. It's not like it's going in there and then becoming part of the ecosystem.

Right, so. So does that mean if you take a probiotic pill, it doesn't like the benefits you get from that don't stay in your gut? They. They move through? Is that what you mean? Or.

Yeah, absolutely, James. It's. It's pretty much. They're like, they're like little tourists that go through, so they're passing through. They elicit benefit and then they pretty much shed it off in the, in the, in the stool.

Right. So. So we'd be kind of misinformed previously to think that if you take the probiotic pill, that good bacteria, or that probiotics in there forever, like you've got it now in your gut forever. But that's not the case.

It's not the case. I mean, it's not the case. I should. Let me clarify. It's not the case for everyone. So the studies are indicating that it might be able to colonize for some people, but not necessarily for everyone. But my case in point is that as long as it's eliciting a benefit in the way that the World Health Organization defines it, a probiotic is something that's eliciting a health benefit. There's nothing to do with colonization. It's just an old way of thinking. And even myself, going back years ago, I even believed in that mantra where you take a probiotic, it colonizes and it stays with you forever. It's almost like you're reseeding the gut. But the newest research, the latest research is showing that's not the case. They're really tourists, but they're still eliciting a benefit. But again, let me put a proviso. Not all probiotics are created equal. So it might be a good way to segue. Like when people think of a probiotic, it's a certain type of bacteria My issue with probiotics is that because of the rampant marketing around it, there's no real. And the way that probiotics are marketed are typically as a food supplement, which doesn't come under the rigor of, say, a pharmacological regime. So it's very much kind of almost unregulated, I would say. I mean, there's some regulation, but not as rigorous as medicines. So this is the way that I guess companies get their products into market by not having test tested the efficacy and the actual benefits in a clinical environment by actually calling it a food supplement. And it really comes down to strain. If you look at the studies that are showing benefits, they're really coming down to strains.

And so when you say strain, does that mean different strains of bacteria in the probiotic supplement?

Yes. So what I can do is I can explain, I guess, the strain concept. So the easiest way to describe it is if you think about, for instance, say a dog. So if we look at the, I guess the dog phylogenetic tree, which is the way that scientists describe an animal and the different classes of animals. So a dog belongs in the kingdom of Animalia phylum level, which is the level down of Chordata, class of Mammalia, order of Carnivora, family of Canadae, genus of Canis, species of C. Lupus.

Wow.

And then you've got subspecies of different types of C. Lupus. So you've got, within there, you've got a Chihuahua and you've got German Shepherd, A German shepherd, you know, Alaskan malamute. So think about this analogy. So you're trying to work out what's the best dog to choose for pulling your sled. So you're looking at it really from that subspecies level, or almost a strain level to say, well, the Chihuahua is not going to cut it, but the Alaskan malamute or some sort of sleigh dog is going to do the job. Now, for comparison, let's compare that versus a probiotic organism that's commonly known. Okay, so Latobacillus rhamnosus, probably the most studied probiotic on the planet. So let's look at its phylogenic origins and classification. So its domain is bacteria. Its phylum is firmicutes. Its class is bacilli. Its order is Lactobacilleales. I can't get these names 100% right. Family Lactobacilli, genus Lactobacillus species, Lactobacillus rhamnosus. Now, the one that's actually been shown to do benefits is called Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG ATCC53103. Say, you can see, like if we say broadly all Lactobacillus have some form of probiotic benefits, it can be slightly misleading.

Right? I mean, isn't that like just saying all dogs could run your sled. Yes, but the Chihuahua can't run your sled.

Exactly. So can you see the comparison like it's semantics. But when you actually look at down at that species level, it demonstrates what actually elicits probiotic benefits and how it's actually marketed to say, well all these things are eliciting a benefit.

I mean for me that opens up such a layer of complexity to probiotics and strains of bacteria, whereas previously I'm just looking at like that's just bacteria or that's just a probiotic. But what I'm now understanding is that you can be very specific on the type of species and type type it is and we don't get a lot of information about that. It's normally just marketed as probiotic or a really simple version of what it is. But we're not getting to this level of depth and detail.

Yeah, absolutely. Because, well, firstly, I think scientists are, are just starting to figure things out and I just want to clarify that most of these studies that are happening on probiotics, this is directly from, from the conference that I just attended, 96% is preclinical, so and using animal models, primarily mice. So where the science is at is not even at that clinical level where you're doing a randomized control trial.

So sorry, when you're saying clinical, do you mean with people?

Is that with people and in a setting of, you know, a randomized control trial where there is some rigor behind the research. Well, at the moment is we're using extrapolations, using a mice model primarily, so 96% preclinical primarily on, on mice.

So I can see how some people might take these studies and then kind of, I mean not say it is, but mark it in a way like this is fact when really the science isn't at that clinical level yet.

Yes, absolutely. And I mean it's going to get there at some point. And I mean there's huge amounts of money going into this like. So this conference I attended, the Gut brain axis, is actually called Biotech Pharma Summit. So the people in that room were primarily from the pharmaceutical industry. But what was really interesting is there were some big food players in that room room as well. So there was Nestle Nestle was in that room. And get this, James Nestle actually sent a gastroenterologist that works on their team. So this is how significant gut health is beginning becoming, and this is how significant amounts of money actually going to researching these fields. And I know that, that Nestle, it was about maybe a year ago, so I bought the biggest microbiome research facility in France. Now they're sending gastroenterologists to actually study this stuff. And what this is indicating is that looks like these big food companies are going to start using this as a marketing strategy to actually develop food products that are targeting particularly. This was gut brain. So foods that will affect your mood or impact your mood in a positive way. So this is huge. And we're seeing. Get this, James. This blew my mind. In the last month, we've had Remedy Kombucha pretty much now run by Lion Dairy, who's owned by Kirin, which is one of the biggest food companies in this region. So think of all your. A lot of yogurt brands on the market, a lot of dairy products. Like what? Some of their brands, lion, like Kirinbia for sure, but they've got a huge stable of brands in that space. But now Remedy is actually run by this company. What's even more staggering this week, Mojo Kombucha was purchased by Coca Cola.

Wow. That is insane.

It's insane. It's like insane.

Yeah. I mean, Coke is such a big company, for them to position themselves like that and take a Kombucha company. I mean, wow.

So we're seeing huge amounts of activity happening in the food world, in the pharmaceutical world. One of the key themes that actually came out of this conference is that there is an absolute. It's. How do you describe it? It's an absolute whether money grab is the right word. But there is so much excitement in this gut microbiome. And now we're seeing companies actually viewing this as finding the Amazon rainforest for the first time. And you've got scientists now, heaps of scientists in that room that I spoke to who are actually analyzing fecal matter from people to isolate strains of probiotic organisms so that they can patent it and own it. This is what's happening in this space. It is an apps. It's one of the most exciting fields in biotechnology. There is huge amounts of money going into this and there is people fighting tooth and nail for intellectual property. Wow. So it's staggering. It's staggering. So where should we take it from that level?

Yeah, I mean, it's incredible. And I guess what comes to mind is my own health and listeners health. And based off this information, what should we be doing? Should we not be focusing on our probiotics so much? Should we be looking more at fermentation and fermented foods and diet? But you know, it's, I feel a little bit unsure about probiotics now. It seems like science is still trying to figure it out. So I guess my question is, what do I do for my own health? What should I focus on?

I think the simplest way is to really focus on the strain. The strain. Make sure that the company is actually listening, listing the strains on the labels. And actually, you know, these days we've got information at our fingertips. I mean, and what I'll do is I'll post in the show notes an excellent website which actually shows you the brand of the probiotic and the level of studies that's actually been conducted on it. And this is one of the ways that I found the probiotic that we have on our website, Vivomix, because this is one of the most studied ones and one we support because it has got some scientific rigor behind it. But the key takeaway of this first part of this discussion around probiotics is really the science is young. It's still on animal models. So all we have at the moment is mainly animal models. But at least if it's got some studies in terms of the strains, at least it's got some credibility that it may work in the body. But if they're not listing strains, that's an issue because again, we gave the analogy like, how do you know if this animal is suitable for the job? Yeah, we have to have something to validate that.

Yeah. Okay, so if you're going to go purchase a probiotic, make sure they're listing the strains and take a look at this website that you're going to put in the show notes. You can double check. But if there's no information about the strains, you might want to be wary.

Absolutely. Be wary. Because you could be really consuming something that's providing no benefit. And probiotic pills are not cheap. But ideally, James, I always fall back on fermented foods because, and I was thinking about this the other day and I thought, well, if you're going to isolate a bacteria from an exogenous environment outside our sphere, you're going to cultivate that and grow that in a test tube. I'm oversimplifying it, but it's cultured in some way. It's isolated from somewhere, it's cultured. There's a Whole lot of things that need to happen for it to actually get into the gut to elicit a benefit has to survive the transit through the stomach, which is extremely harsh. And then you've got to tackle all the existing microflora and this is part of that study that just came out as well. And then you've got to deal with the body's own immune system. So there's a lot of things that could potentially kill this bacteria off, this probiotic bacteria, before it even gets to the gut to elicit its benefit. Whereas with fermented foods, we know they've been around for a long time, they've been with us, you've got an actual food matrix that is encasing and protecting it that will assist in the transit through the gut. And it's highly likely, because we know that genetic information is passed on from generation to generation, you know, at least that it's highly likely that the body will recognize this organism because it's been in our sphere for thousands of years. I mean, that's just my theory. I mean, there's no hard science behind what I'm saying, but this is just my thought process. So fermented foods, I think if you look at the cost of a probiotic pill versus a fermented food, fermented foods are so cheap. And not only that you're not only talking about the probiotic organism, you're also talking about all the micronutrients that come with it, all the beneficial vitamins and minerals, the actual metabolites that have been produced by the fermentation of the actual food. So if bang for buck, guys, fermented foods are definitely, definitely part and parcel to add into your arsenal for good wellness and health.

Yeah, totally get you. I mean, it sounds like fermented foods are a much more natural way of doing this and getting all those benefits. It seems like there's a lot of hype around the probiotics in the pill form. But I think, I mean, I prefer having the fermented foods. Like, I enjoy making them, I enjoy eating them, I enjoy that whole thing, food experience of it. And I think it's. I don't, I don't want to lose that. I love the food aspect of it.

Totally. I mean, it's. It's an ancient craft that be. That's been with us for potentially thousands of years. It's really, you know, helped to make us who we are as a civilization to. To take foods when they were, or crops when they were abundant and then be able. This was even before Refrigeration using a technology that we developed to actually preserve it so it can keep us alive when food is scarce and lean. So, you know, it's been with us for a long time. It's across almost every culture you can think about. So I think this is where we're going to get the most benefits by really. And don't get me wrong, the technology, the science will improve in probiotics. There will come a day when there will be a personalized probiotic that will benefit ailments. We know that the microbiome, dysbiosis, there's definitely correlation between certain diseases and having the wrong types of bacteria in the gut. And targeted probiotics. In my mind, there's no doubt that there will be a day where you can use these targeted probiotics, probiotics to benefit a certain ailment or disease. I just think that it's still very early days. So we need to be mindful, we need to be cautious about the marketing, the hype, the cash, the cash grabbing.

I think, I think it's a really simplistic and easy way to look at it that you can just take the probiotic pill maybe even once and then you're good. You know, it'll balance out your gut bacteria, it'll help you with this ailment, everything will be okay. And I really don't think that's the case. I think it's more about, you know, learning how to make fermented foods, trying new ones. That whole idea of variety too, you know, eating lots of different vegetables and eating heaps of fermented foods. I mean, at least for my own self, I've been, you know, cranking out sauerkraut like at every meal. I've been drinking kefir. I feel great.

I mean, it makes a huge difference to include these type of foods in your regime. But I think you raise an interesting point there. James for sure was actually the first speaker of the day and this was something that he said, I'm just going to open up my notes. Robert Brummer Professor Director of Nutrition Gut Brain Interactions Research Center University and he was saying there was being. There has been no studies on the efficacy of probiotics long term.

Wow.

No studies over a period of time to actually demonstrate that these things actually elicit benefits effectively over a period of time. So again, this illustrates that it's very much cowboy days. We need to be cautious. And to your point, fermented foods, hugely impactful. I think what I'll do now is I'll Keep on moving through that study because we didn't actually fully cover it, if that's okay, let's go back through that list so we can fully, fully cover off that study. So the next finding is that the normal microbiome inhibits probiotic colonization. So alluded to that a little bit when we're talking about the challenges, the challenges for the probiotic to actually survive. Now, there was a few speakers during the conference that were talking about this, and what they're saying is that the microbiome reaches like a stable state. It's almost like an equilibrium. If you look at a chemical reaction, it reaches an equilibrium. And every ecosystem will have some element of that once the bacteria are in a stable state. And we know that gut bacteria can collaborate with each other. They form these little gangs and tribes, which we've spoken about in workshops. They form biofilms so they secrete substances that are protective to them. And groups of bacteria can cohabitate in these biofilms. Classic examples, kefir grains, kombucha scobes. They're biofilms. If you get a probiotic supplement coming in, the host indigenous tribes are not going to like this very much. And these bacteria have the capability to eat one another. They have the capability to produce antibiotics against one another. The body itself has the ability to produce chemicals that can favor certain organisms. So it's going to be hugely difficult for a probiotic organism to navigate through that environment. And this is highlighted in the study. And I 100 agree on that sentiment.

Yeah. Wow. So, I mean, for me, it's just totally breaking that idea of simplicity that you can just take the probiotic pill and everything's going to be okay. And it makes sense too, I guess. Your body does have that mechanism where, you know, when foreign substances and bacteria coming in, it doesn't just want to accept those and integrate them into the body. So, yeah, really breaks that idea of simplicity, just taking the pill and it'll be okay.

And to that point, you know, scientists now are actually looking at to overcome this hurdle. I've seen. And there was some talk in the conference as well about using antibiotic treatment. So essentially what they're doing is they're using an antibiotic treatment to disrupt the indigenous flora.

So is that a situation where, you know, maybe you put the antibiotic in, it disrupts the type of gut bacteria, maybe even compromises a little bit, but that gives an opportunity to put new, good bacteria in, Is that what you're saying?

Yes, absolutely. So they're using it as an Intervention to disrupt this stable state. And what's important to underscore is that, well, when you're young, there's a certain stable state, but as you progress through life through different interactions with environment, antibiotics, diet, lifestyle, that steady state might actually move to another state, which is diseased. So, for instance, I'll just use it as an example. If you develop diabetes, that steady state moves to another stable state, but it's a disease state. So this is the theoretical information that these scientists are talking about. And so it's still stable, but the body is. Is diseased, but it's happy with that because it's stable. Yeah. So how do you disrupt this diseased stable state?

Yeah. Wow. So the body in the microbiome wants to maintain stability. I'm not sure if homeostasis, is that it. Right. So it has a state of homeostasis, and then, like, it could be a disease state, but for the body, that's homeostasis and it wants to keep that disease state.

Yes, exactly. So this is theoretical information. And this information comes from Imran Meyer, who is an absolute gun. He's a gastroenterologist. He's one of the leading scientists in this field. And I'm hoping. I had a conversation with him. I'm hoping to get him onto this podcast, and he can explain this a lot better than I can. But this is the information that he was presenting around this, the steady state and this theory. So I thought that was fascinating and hence the reason why they're looking at antibiotics to actually disrupt the steady state first. That was my understanding.

Fascinating. I mean, I would love to see the technology get to the point where we can really look at what state you're in and all the information around that. I don't know, maybe one day it is going to be simple like that, and you can just disrupt that state and then you're able to change.

Oh, absolutely. And it makes a lot of sense, you know, when we look at data, microbiome data from people and they're in a disease state. But then how do we shift it to a more healthier state? Because that disease state is going to be quite resilient and determined not to change. So this is the challenge that scientists will face, and I'm sure eventually they will come to a. A solution. But this, again, novel signs. We'll move on to the next one. Probiotics. Slow recovery of the normal microbiome after antibiotics. This is actually a good segue. When we talk about using antibiotic treatment to address illness, we all know that I think it's widely known that having an antibiotic is hugely damaging to the gut microbiome and you might wipe out species that you might never get back. But what this study is showing is that in certain circumstances, again, it wasn't clear to me what strains are actually talking about. So in the context of the study, the strains that they used inhibited the microbiome from returning back to a steady state. So there was some interference happening. But this is consistent with what we just spoke about. It really determines, is the steady state good or is it diseased? So that's. I think more studies need to be done in that field.

Oh, wow. So there's this steady state where the body holds onto whatever state it wants to or is familiar with, and it could be a really disease state. And so it's all theoretical, but maybe the answer to, you know, helping a lot of people with ailments and microbiome issues is to disrupt that state and learn how to shift.

Absolutely, absolutely. I. No doubt in my mind that that's where the science is headed, like, how do we disrupt the steady state? And there was. There was companies in there, James, who are actually in the fecal microbiome, trans or fecal transfer industry, and there was quite a few companies. And this base is hugely impactful, especially for people with C. Diff infections. So there's really good results with C. Diff. Clostridium difficile. It's a horrible disease. But this is another way that we could shift steady state by actually taking poo from someone and putting it into another person. So you take it from a healthy individual and you put it into someone that's diseased. Again, that lends itself to shifting someone's steady state from a diseased one to one that's healthy. See, it's like a mass inoculation of the Amazon rainforest into another forest, the Daintree up north in Queensland. Yeah, yeah.

It's. It just seems like the microbiome and the state that it holds, it's a lot more complex than I thought. And it seems like it wants to stay in the state it is. And it's not as easy as we think to change it, like quickly or easily.

It's. It's not easy to change. I don't think it's impossible. I've seen from our own data, by shifting my own diet and especially using prebiotic supplementation, to be able to drastically shift microbiome.

Yeah, I mean. I mean, the question that comes to mind for me is I know there was a point in my life where I was eating very, very badly and I would assume I would have had some type of microbiome imbalance. Now, at this point, when I'm eating healthy heaps of fermented foods, I feel great. You know, I don't have the data to support it, but I would assume there's a change that's occurred in my microbiome. I definitely don't feel how I used to feel.

Undoubtedly, there's definitely a change. The important thing is that we need to really shift our diets in a positive direction, especially with vegetable consumption. Fibre, we spoke about in previous podcasts, fiber, prebiotics, all these things are going to help really shift the gut microbiome. But the study, interesting yet probiotics could potentially in some people, slow down recovery after antibiotics. So again, I think it's, it's really, it's going to be a personalized thing. These things, they're marketed as a broad panacea. But what scientists are discovering now is that each person is different, each person's microbiome environment is different, so how they interact with these probiotic supplements are going to be different. While one thing works for one person, might not work for the other, so the future that we're heading towards is something that's very personalized, so, so true.

And I really agree with that. I think, especially for people who, you know, subscribe to one diet or one type of food and they might tell everybody, like, this is the type of food for you. You need to definitely eat this. And it might just not work for people like somebody else. That food might not elicit the same response. It might not work for them. But I really agree with what you're saying, is that it's going to be more of an individualized approach. Each person is different, different types of foods and diets are going to work for them.

Absolutely. And what was underscored to me, as well as being very important, is the host genetics.

Right.

And I kind of stumbled upon this myself, but it was really highlighted to me by listening to these scientists talk that with personalization, a lot of it comes down to host genetics, because depending on the host's genes, it actually impacts the gut microbiome composition. And if I can use myself as an example, I had my genetics tested maybe six years ago. I did mine through 23andMe. I can put the links in the show notes if anybody's interested in getting their genetics done. It's very cheap these days to get it done. I think back in those days I paid like $400 now it's like $99. It's really cheap. So I've been holding on to all my genetic data for a while, but now you can actually run it through directly from 23andMe through some really nifty companies. The one I used was called Sterling Hill and I ran it through the Sterling Hill app. I think you can still do it. I know Google the 23andMe people made some changes on their API which transfers the data between one company to another. It might still work. I'll put the links in the show notes. So if you do have some 23andMe data, you can give it a try and see if it works for you. But what it highlighted to me is that I have a certain gene, what we call polymorphism, which is almost like a defect, for want of a better word. And it's called the G6 PDD defect. Now other common defects are like MTHFR, FTO, there's some SIP ones as well, CYP defects. But this was a huge one for me because I didn't realize that millions of people around the world are afflicted with this gene polymorphism. G6 PDD, glucose 6 phosphate. I'll put it in the show notes what it actually is. But this polymorphism actually impacts how I metabolize glucose. So it affects a whole chain in my glucose metabolism, the pentos pathway. So for the consumers listening, this is like me jumping around in one leg in terms of glucose metabolism because that glucose is converted into glutathione, which is the body's master antioxidant. But I have very limited amount of this enzyme to actually convert that glucose into glutathione. So a huge part of my pathway is disrupted. So then I researched G6 PDD. It afflicts so many people and the way it evolved is that it gives people in areas that are susceptible to malaria an advantage because for some reason it has a protective benefit against that disease. So my ancestors were able to survive malaria because of this genetic defect. But now it's been passed on and you'll see huge amounts of Africans, Middle Eastern people, areas the world where malaria is prevalent have this polymorphism. So I found myself eating a lot of legumes and it didn't actually make me feel that great. And now when I research more into it, there's some people doing some research on this and it shows that there are avoidance lists. It's like a sensitivity that foods that you have to avoid. And G6 PDD is actually also called favism, which Means you can't have certain types of beans. It can actually be very damaging to your body. So again, there's never going to be a blanket statement to say that everything is good for everyone because I need to increase my fiber intake, I need to have more legumes. But for me, that doesn't work for me because I've got this gene polymorphism, so it's really not going to work for me. So it's really headed towards personalized nutrition, personalized microbiome, personalized probiotics. It is a personalized world. And I think we're coming up to time, James, and what I'll do is I'll quickly finish off the last part of these studies. So, And I think we covered this. A personalized pre transplant results in rapid recovery after antibiotics. So that's fascinating. Really, really fascinating to see where fecal microbiome transplants are going. There's a whole lot of ethical and health issues that come with fecal transplants. Again, I think the industry is really finding its feet. It's so novel. It's so new.

Yeah, yeah, I get you. I think above all what I've gotten is it's still new science. So be wary of what's coming out. Be wary of marketers who are saying, like, all the hype and telling you this is how it is. We're still learning. There's still a lot to learn.

There's still a lot to learn. It's a novel field. Scientists are in agreement with some things, disagreements with others. These couple of studies have created a whole lot of noise, I guess, in the gut health world. But hopefully it's clear what my stance is. My stance is really, look at your strains, don't give up hope on probiotics, because I think eventually science will get there. But all we have to go on at the moment is the studies that are primarily on mice. And we will see more, I guess, randomized control trials eventually, because there's a lot of money going to this market, so especially from the pharmaceutical industry. So it's getting there. We will get there, undoubtedly. And in closing, I just wanted to highlight, there was a study recently done by Deakin University called the SMILES Trial. And now this created a whole lot of interest and many speakers at this conference brought up the SMILES trial. And what the SMILES trial is all about is using diet, a modified Mediterranean diet, to show in the human context that it actually improves mood. And they demonstrated that. So, guys, food, we don't need to look for the magical pill. I mean, food is incredibly powerful. And I'll put the links to the smiles trial so you can read it for yourself. But here, there's huge benefits from this research and in particularly, a Mediterranean diet, which is which is also promoted by Dr. Michael Mosley. So I think we will wrap there. Any final words, James?

I think that's it. I think we covered a lot of really valuable information.

So, guys, as always, thank you for joining us. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Gut Health Gurus. And stay tuned. And we'll hopefully get another episode out to you very soon. And each week I'll try and get more and more information from this conference that I attended. There is so much to get through, but this is just a little teaser. Thanks, guys.