Uncover the Secret to a Super Gut with Dr. William Davis!

This episode is brought to you by Nourish Me Organics, your gut health super store. Nourish Me Organics is the premier online store for all things gut health, including probiotics, prebiotics, natural health supplements, and home fermentation kits. So head to www.nourishmeorganics.com and use the code happygut for 10% off. In this episode, Dr. William Davis is going to share the secret to a super gut with his amazing El Rooterie yogurt recipe.

Hey, guys. Cribben Govender from the Gut Health Gurus podcast. I've got a background in food science and nutrition, and today I have a superstar in the gut health space, Dr. William Davis. Dr. William, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Cribben. Glad to be here.

It's my absolute pleasure. Dr. William, this is going to be a fun discussion. I really want to explore your new book, Supergut.

Isn't it right?

Yeah.

It sent ripples as things that I do often do, but it's meant to empower people, Cribbin. It's not meant to. It's not for personal notoriety, it's not for money. It's because there's so much wrong with what's going on in healthcare now.

Absolutely. And I'd like to start the show always with a very open question to get the audience to know a little bit about you. So who is Dr. William Davis?

Crimin. It went back 30 years or so. So I practiced interventional cardiology for many years, which is doing angioplasty, heart catheterizations, implanting stents, doing atherectomies and laser eczema, laser angioplasty, all that kind of stuff to open people's heart arteries. Well, I started to realize just how wrong that was. But it really came to a head when my mom died of sudden cardiac death after her successful two vessel coronary angioplasty in New Jersey. I was in Wisconsin at the time. I just moved to Milwaukee to set up new technologies in that area. In other words, my mom died of a disease that I tried to manage every day in a procedure lab. It was a vivid illustration to me how futile, how silly it was to try to manage a disease that way. I asked, well, gee, if I had my mom back, how could I have identified her potential for that two years, five years, 10 years before those things happened back then, this remains true today. The only method to do that is. I don't know how available this is in your part of the world right now, but back then it was to do a CT heart scan to obtain something called the carnary calcium score. There was not a device in all of Wisconsin. There was a device in Chicago at the time. There are very few devices nationwide. So I put together the project and we opened a CT heart scan in this city. We started scanning people left and right. And cribben, when you look for hidden coronary disease, you find it everywhere. But back then, what do you do about it? Do you let people just die like my mom? Or wait till they have symptoms, they need stents or bypass surgery? Or is there something more you could do about it? Well, back then this still remains true. My colleagues all said, well take a statin drug, a cholesterol drug, a baby aspirin, a low fat diet and start an exercise program. Well, we help publish these data. If you did nothing, your score, a normal score, is zero. Your score would go up 25% per year, which is a horrible rate of progression. If you take a statin drug, follow low fat diet, baby aspirin, exercise, how fast does Your score increase? 25% per year has no impact whatsoever. Yet to this day, my colleagues continue to call that optimal medical therapy. It's almost a joke. And so this is 20 some years ago I set about try to find a better way, better answers. There's a lot of stumbling and zigzagging mistakes and dead ends. But it led to very, very important lessons such as adding vitamin D, especially in this climate was dramatic. It was the first time I saw coronary calcium scores plummet. Score of 700 could become 322 or something like that within a year. But it also led. I also rejected this ridiculous notion that cholesterol is a cause for heart disease. It is not. It is a crude, barely useful at all marker for the particles that cause heart disease. Yet it's been co opted into the service of big pharma in the service of cholesterol reducing drugs like statin drugs and other drugs. But a real cause is an excess of small LDL particles. Only two foods caused that. Two groups of foods, Wheat grains and sugar. I asked people to take the wheat grains and sugar out of the diet. I saw small LDL particles measured via a method called NMR, nuclear magnetic resonance drop from terrible numbers like 2,000 nanomoles per liter, particle count per volume to zero. And I saw their heart scan scores stop progressing, often regressing or reversing. But when I had people remove wheat and grains is when they started telling me things like I lost 47 pounds. I didn't even try. I'm no longer a type 2 diabetic. My blood pressure is so much better. I'm off three blood pressure medicines. My psoriasis is now gone. But it also became clear that many people, while they made huge advances in their health, were sometimes still left with health problems such as food intolerances. They say, you know what? I'm skinny now. I'm not diabetic, I'm off my medication, but I still am intolerant to tomatoes, legumes, lentils, chickpeas, this and that. And so I started looking for what could it be, what residual problem was, and cribbing. That's when I looked at the microbiome and there were a ton of answers. And that was the solution to a lot of these residual problems.

That's an amazing introduction. Wow. Your origin story with your mom and leading you down this pathway to discover the potential drawbacks or blind spots within the current establishment of medicine and then progressing onto developing, I guess, your own protocols and your own sort of dietary recommendations when it comes to eliminating wheat, grains and sugar from the diet. I know this is going back to some of your original work, but how does these three things you mentioned impact our health? The grains, the sugars and the. And the. What was the other one? Grain Sugars and wheat.

Grains and sugars.

Yes. How does this, how does this impact our health?

So there's a protein in modern wheat. I make the issue of modern wheat because this is not about wheat only, but such a big player in health. So if you were to look for a weak field, especially in North America, you would see that wheat is not the 4 1/2, 5 foot, the 1.8 meter tall plant. It's a short, stocky plant created essentially in a laboratory in Mexico, Interestingly, in the 1960s by a team of scientists, not evil scientists. These were people trying to solve world hunger. They wanted to increase yield per acre and they came up with what's called high yield semi dwarf wheat. Well, that wheat is extremely different. And since then, also farmers and agricultural scientists have added these effects not to be evil, but to increase yield per acre and other agricultural aims. For instance, one of the things that farmers like to do is select strains of wheat that are enriched in something called phytates and wheat germagglutinin. That's because these are very helpful for resistance against pests, insects and molds and fungi. They select strains are much enriched in these two factors. Not recognizing that wheat germagglutinin is a very potent bowel toxin. It's extremely toxic to the human GI tract. And phytates are very good at binding minerals. Calcium, magnesium, iron, zinc, anything positively charged. So if you have a sandwich, for instance, or a hamburger with, with a bun, the phytates in just that much wheat flour is enough to bind the phytates, bind the minerals, and you poop them out in the toilet. And that's why there's so much deficiency of these minerals. So we're told, of course, that you must have grains for B vitamins and fiber, not being told that it causes profound deficiencies in minerals. Now, the gliadin protein also has undergone. Gliadin is a protein within gluten. People say gluten, but it's the protein, gliadin proteins. The real problem, the gliadin protein has been changed. You know, when you change a plant that dramatically, you change not just its appearance, but also its biochemical characteristics on humans. And the gliadin protein is because humans really can't fully digest the proteins and the seeds of grasses. That's what wheat and grains are, seeds of grasses. And the gliadin protein is broken down not to single amino acids like other proteins, like proteins in, say, steak or ground meat or eggs. You break the protein gliadin into fragments, four or five amino acid long fragments. These act as opioids on the human brain and they stimulate appetite and have other behavioral effects, by the way, but they stimulate appetite. And that's why wheat flour is so popular in the food industry, because it is a very powerful appetite stimulant. And so it makes people have a really hard time regulating their behavior and their appetite because they're constantly hungry. Then we have the dietary community saying really silly things like eat a small meal every two hours all throughout the day, of course, is absurd. So that, by the way, is very dangerous practice. And so that and some other factors. Glyphosate, the herbicide, is not just an herbicide, it's also an antibiotic. And that has microbiome implications. And so we have this perfect storm of garbage ingredients coming at us largely by way of wheat and grain. The other problem foods, of course, the modern diet. But wheat and grains, that is the food we're all told must dominate. Diet is a horrible way to eat.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more with all those statements that you're talking about. The transition of these earlier types of species of wheat and other crops moving towards selective breeding and now to an extent, even genetic modification to increase the yields of certain crops. But these effects of shifting from something that was More ancient in nature, something like komoot wheat, and then moving towards these modern varieties and strains, we don't really know the full impact. And I think what you're suggesting is with these differences in amino acids, the spraying of glyphosate, there could be some negative health implications which could be manifesting in all those different symptoms that you mentioned at the start. So that's very interesting. Glyphosate, absolutely spot on antibiotic, hugely detrimental for a lot of the pathways in the gut and the microbiome. So absolutely spot on. And how about some of the other ones that you talked about? So grains. So what types of grains are potentially problem issues or red flags that we should know about?

Well, modern wheat, modern high yield, semi dwarf wheat is the worst of all. The problem with wheat and grains, that is grasses, that's what these are, Poaceae, is they're very promiscuous. We don't think of grains as being promiscuous, but they are. So rye and barley. So rye, for instance, had its origin as a weed in wheat fields and so it shared a lot of the genetics. Rye is almost identical to. It tastes different, it looks different, smells different, but genetically it's almost identical to wheat. Barley is very similar. Corn, people don't think of corn as being a grain, but it is. The modern idea of corn with a big cob is a very dramatic mutation from the original thiacid plant. If you saw thiacy, you say, oh, that's a grass. There's a lot of shared characteristics. The worst of all are the grains that have what's called a prolamin protein. That's the gliadin and wheat, the cecalyn in rye, the hordein and barlosian in corn to some degree the avidin and oats, those are the indigestible proteins. And when you can't digest proteins, they have peculiar effects. Then they're the not so detrimental grains but still have problems like millet, sorghum, rice, rice, grain. The issue with rice is that it has very little protein but it has almost pure sugar. People won't think of it that with the starch, but it's almost pure sugar. And of course the recently identified issue of arsenic. Very high quantities of arsenic in rice, not because agribusiness put it there, but because arsenic is just a natural concentrator of arsenic. But in other words, if we try to make grains healthy in some way, there's always some problem with them. You know, we go back, people say things like, well what about, you know, Heritage or older forms of wheat like red Fife from the 19th century in North America, or Emmer wheat from the Bible biblical times, or Einkorn, the ancestral form. So here's a question I ask. Well, what happened to the first humans and the subsequent humans who consumed those grains? Crimin, it's amazing. People often don't realize. Before the entry of wheat and grains into the human diet, there was almost no tooth decay. So we're talking about prior to agriculture and the harvesting of wild and then purposeful cultivation of wheat and grains. There was no toothpaste, of course, there's no fluoridated toothpaste, there's no dental floss, there's no dentist, no orthodontists, no braces, and Almost no tooth decay. 1 3% of all teeth recovered prior to the consumption of grains showed tooth decay, evidence of tooth rot, decay, abscess formation and misalignment. When grains entered the human diet, 16 to 49% of all teeth recovered showed evidence of cavity formation, tooth loss, abscess, misalignment, and there was a doubling of knee arthritis and the appearance of nutrient deficiencies, especially iron. In other words, ancient humans who turned to, you know, it's testimony, Cribben, to the cleverness of humans. Ancient humans who saw grasses and thought they saw food. How do you turn a grass into a food? Well, it's not easy. You have to isolate the seed, you have to dry it, remove the husk back. Then they pulverized it with stones and then reconstituted with boiling in a stone bowl as porridge. When you do that, you do survive another few days, weeks, with the calories from the carbohydrates, the amylopectin, the part that is digestible. But then your teeth rot and you develop autoimmune diseases and gastrointestinal disturbances. And over time, of course, if calories are sufficient, type 2 diabetes and all the other things that we see now as being commonplace, not recognizing that when we allow the seeds of grass into the human dietary experience, we trade calories for health.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And what's your thoughts about using some of these ancient techniques like fermentation or creating a sourdough? Do you think there's any benefits from reducing some of the negative impacts of some of these grain amino acids and phytates glyphosate. Does fermentation have any remedy from your perspective?

Fermentation is a wonderful thing, Cribben, but when it comes to grains, I look at it as like low tar cigarettes. In other words, if we Take your full tar cigarette without a filter and put a filter on it and reduce the tar. Are cigarettes now healthy for you? Same thing here. Fermentation, say as sourdough bread, you reduce the phytates, you reduce the wheat germ agglutinin content, you reduce some of the gliad content, but they're still there in plentiful amounts. And so a lot of the physiologic effects remain. And of course, when you ferment a sourdough, you have to bake it. And so all the potential benefit, or I should say many of the potential benefits of the microbes in fermentation, which ordinarily are wonderful microbes that ferment foods are absolutely hands down fabulous for health. But when you bake them, you kill them. And so I can't say that sourdough bread converts wheat flour and other flours into something that's actually good for you.

I guess for the absolute purest of following a diet, totally removing any grains that's perfectly fine. For others that are potentially finding it very difficult. You mentioned how addictive some of these grain compounds are. If they're finding it very difficult, at least we can minimize some of the impacts, negative impacts of grains by using these very ancient practices of fermentation, sprouting, soaking, things like that. So it's up to the choice of the individual which pathway they want to go down. But we're here to provide some advice and some tools. So how about sugar? What's the story with sugar?

Well, very destructive food, of course, particularly in the quantities that modern people take in. So sugar is one of those things that drives the thing we mentioned before, the small LDL particles. So sugar is a flagrant cause of coronary disease, heart attack, need for stents, bypass surgery, etc. Of course sugar contributes to type 2 diabetes because it raises blood sugar. You know, it's shocking that for decades the American Diabetes association said sugar doesn't cause diabetes, of course it causes diabetes, it raises blood sugar and insulin causes insulin resistance. It causes accumulation of visceral fat, of course, that's inflammatory fat that encircles abdominal organs, on and on and on. It changes your bowel flora. You know, all it takes a three day, all expense paid, all inclusive vacation on the Caribbean or something where you had a few too many margaritas and that's enough to massively change your bowel flora, for instance. So it doesn't take a whole lot in the way of sugar. And of course sugar rot your teeth. And so I, I can't Think of any good reason to include sugar, especially since we have natural non caloric sweeteners, not synthetic sweeteners, but natural non caloric sweeteners that people say things like, well, you know what, I'd like to do this but I have family, I have children, I have grandchildren, I have friends to entertain. What happens when I want to have pizza with my friends or want to have some cheesecake or some biscuits and gravy at the holidays? All these things cribbin are easily recreatable with benign ingredients that don't rot your teeth, don't get you a heart attack, don't cause disruptions in your microbiome, but you can have these kinds of foods. You will have to make them because they're not readily available in most areas as a manufactured product. But you know, that's good. When food manufacturers make foods, 99% of the time they add stuff you don't really need and has destructive effects. You know, simple preservatives like potassium sorbate or sodium benzoate are antibacterial and they disrupt your microbiome and it's just something as simple as that. So it's a good thing to not rely on a whole bunch of processed foods with long, long lists of ingredients.

Completely agree. You've got, you hit the nail on the head. That's my, my old stomping ground in food product development. And really it's all about you get a cost target that you work towards and you're trying to make a product as cheaply as possible and as profitable as possible for the food manufacturer. And then you overcook the preservatives because you don't want the product to go off on the shelf because that creates a whole lot of pain for the food manufacturers, product recalls, food poisoning, you know, things like that. So I agree with you. It all really comes down to step number one, if you want to improve your health, and I'm sure you'd agree is just really clean up the diet and go back to, to clean eating principles. That's really the first step. Now I want to swing back to something that you mentioned earlier around cholesterol. And this is something really pertinent in my own life. I'd love your advice, William. So my parents, they're elderly and they go to their regular GP checkups checking their cholesterol. If those numbers are really high, they get worried. Typically the doctor will prescribe things like statins. So what do I say to them? Because from what you said earlier, you know, there's a Lot of controversy around cholesterol. How would you approach that conversation with my parents?

Not easy. Right. Because they've been so brainwashed and my colleagues have been so utterly brainwashed into this ridiculous notion that cholesterol causes heart disease. When Drs. William Friedewald and Frederickson at the National Institutes of health in the 1950s and 1960s were trying to devise ways to quantify the fat carrying particles, lipoproteins, in the bloodstream, they realized that while they could do this at Bethesda, Maryland, the NIH aged, you couldn't do this in, you know, backwaters like Milwaukee or Melbourne at the time. So how do you do that? Well, they devised a very crude workaround, which is to measure the. You know, lipoproteins have many things in them. They have proteins, they have fats, they have triglycerides and all. Well, how do you quantify microscopic particles in various parts of the blood. Blood. So what they did, they. They spun the blood down in a centrifuge. It layers out. High density at the bottom, very low density at the top, and you try to quantify the part. Well, that's not easy to do, especially in 1958. So they devised a way to estimate number of particles by measuring cholesterol as one of the components. They could have chosen triglycerides, they could have chosen apoprotein B, they could have chosen apoprotein C. 2. They could have chosen many. They chose cholesterol as a crude dipstick for the particles in the bloodstream, and they devised a crude equation. I'm sorry, William. The Friedwald equation. To calculate LDL cholesterol, the amount of cholesterol in the low density lipoprotein fraction, because I thought that was the fraction most tightly associated with coronary disease. That crude, outdated, rusty technology persists 60 years later because it makes money. Not because it's effective, but because it makes money. The statin cholesterol drug is a prime example how far wrong conventional health care can go when money is at stake. So we hear things like, well, your cholesterol is high and so your. You could drop dead tomorrow. That's ridiculous. Cholesterol is not heart disease. It's a crude indirect marker that has hardly any predictive value at all. But the real tragedy, crepin of cholesterol is it takes everybody's attention off the real causes of heart disease, such as inflammation, insulin resistance, vitamin D deficiency, hypothyroidism, which is epidemic dysbiosis, disruption of intestinal bowel flora and sibo small intestinal bacterial overgrowth that cause what's called endotoxemia, the entry of bacterial breakdown brought into the bloodstream. There are real causes that you and I have extraordinary and your parents have extraordinary control over. But the doctor doesn't give a damn because there's no sexy sales rep in a miniskirt. So, you know, having practiced medicine for 25 years and trained for 17 years. I know. And having grown up as a poor kid deeply in debt when I finally started practicing, I know how the world works. I can tell you when I'm in the cath lab and you have this beautiful Sales rep saying, Dr. Davis, did you want to come to our all expense paid meeting in Orlando where we talk about all the new ideas? Well, you know, first of all, of course I do. I fell for it first. But that's the way of the world and that's what drives healthcare practices. But the tragedy, Cribbon, is your mom and dad are being given this Kool Aid level of information, not being given the real information, how they need to have their vitamin D assessed, have their thyroid status assessed. Let's look at NMR lipoproteins because when you see lipoproteins, it becomes eminently obvious this has nothing to do with with cholesterol. Has everything to do with diet and related issues like insulin resistance. And these things are easy. But here's the key. No drugs involved. Your mom and dad could correct all these things easily, inexpensively, effectively and eradicate cardiovascular risk. But the real tragedy here also is the last person to ask how to do this is the doctor. Because they're so concentrated on one, conventional ideas of cholesterol and statins and two, how to drive revenue for their system. That's not health. So I tell people the level of health that you, me, your parents are capable of achieving is not almost as good as the kind of health the doctor provides. The kind of health you and your parents can achieve is superior, is dramatically superior to the cheap, ridiculous excuse for health the doctor provides.

Wow, I love your passion when you speak about this topic. I can feel that it's something very near and dear to you. And I almost feel like I have goosebumps when you speak about it. Thank you so much for sharing that. And one thing I want to just clarify as well is if the doctors are asking us to manage cholesterol, how is cholesterol linked to vitamin D? Because you mentioned there is issues potentially with cardiovascular risk and also vitamin D deficiency. How does that link up?

Yeah, reducing cholesterol that is this necessary and essential component of all your body's cells, from the brain down to the prostate and other parts, has deleterious effects. You've seen these data. It's hard to prove conclusively because we don't say things like, hey, cribbing, I want you to join this clinical trial. We're going to give you a drug that reduces your cholesterol. We want to see if there's more suicide. So it's hard to do those kinds of trials. So they're all done retrospectively. That is, we take, we look at hundreds of thousands of people and see what happens to them when we do do reduce cholesterol. So it's not the cleanest data, but when we look at those things, people who reduce their cholesterol have all kinds of health problems, including suicide, reduction in essential hormones like testosterone. And so there's all kinds of problem with this notion of. And so I tell people, let's get away from this idea of treating health. This is a hard concept for many people to embrace. Let's get away from the idea of treating health conditions. Let's think about identifying the factors that allow disease to emerge in the first place. Regardless of the label, regardless of whether it was labeled hypertension, high cholesterol, coronary disease, rheumatoid arthritis, psoriasis, seborrhea, migraine headaches, ulcerative colitis, Crohn's disease. If you identify the common causes among all those conditions and there's a, it's a short list, more often than not, those conditions just go away and you don't have to worry about, oh, you need prednisone, you need naproxen, you need to intravenous biologic agent for the psoriatic arthritis. All that kind of stuff tends to go away. And people enjoy, as novel as it seems, genuine health.

Absolutely. And there's a couple of other other sort of nutrients or food related items that are typically linked to cholesterol and also blood pressure and hypertension, things like that. So let's jump into those couple of topics. So the first one is saturated fat. So that's very closely associated with cholesterol. So how does that link up? Because commonly when people have high cholesterol, the recommendation would be to reduce saturated fat. So what's your take on that?

It's nonsense. So, you know, we don't have to look very far beyond dietary guidelines to see how many mistakes have been made in diet. Cut your fat, cut your saturated fat. Eat more healthy, whole grains, everything in moderation processed foods are okay. Right. There's so much wrong. You know, it's been 60 years of mistakes that has gotten us here. You know, if, if, if, if people said, you know, I follow the dietary guidelines and I'm slender, I'm not diabetic, I don't have autoimmune diseases, I'm clear headed, I'm energetic, we would, you and I wouldn't have anything to do. So, so they've got it so horribly wrong. So saturated fat, as you know, shockingly, the American Heart association recently re emphasized their guidelines and they actually said this. The clinical studies published in the late 1950s and early 1960s that suggested that total fat and saturated fat was a cardiovascular risk factor continue to hold today. And then they use the garbage science that came out largely out of the Harvard School of Public Health, that is the observational epidemiologic data, which was one, it's garbage data, two was misinterpreted that the USDA and US Department of Health and Human Services, which sadly sets the pace for a lot of the rest of the world, they follow the mistakes of these agencies. We had this ridiculous notion of, I always think back to if we were indigenous populations, like the indigenous populations, say in the South Pacific or Australia or the Brazilian rainforest, or the Kenyan or Tanzanian savannah or the east coast of Africa, Malawi, those people don't chop up a gazelle, eat the stomach, intestines, eat the brain, heart, tongue, me too, and say, oh, we overdid our saturated fat. So it's a return to that style. Of course we don't. Modern guy like you doesn't want to go out and kill the gazelle tomorrow. So we have to make accommodations to moderate what's available to us. But a return to that. And as you point out, there are numerous deficiencies that arise when you start to do dopey things like cut your saturated fat, eat more healthy whole grains and avoid cholesterol. Well, we got some weird sun issue going on here.

Sun's rising in your neck of the woods.

Yeah, right. You know, there's a massive deficiency of collagen in modern people of hyaluronic acid, of phosphatidylserine, of numerous nutrients, because omega 3 fatty acids, you know, people think, oh, omega 3 fatty acids supposed to come from fish and shelf. Well, that's true, but it also comes from brain. And the collagen you're supposed to get from gnawing on stomach and intestines and saving the carcass of the animal you killed, putting it In a big pot, boiling it for its soups and stews with tendons and ligaments and getting a whole wallop of collagen. You eat the brain. It's got tons of hyaluronic acid. Well, people say we don't have a need for. Yeah, you do have need for collagen. If you don't get it, you have acceleration of skin, aging, joint deterioration, brain, probably brain cognitive impairment, hypertension. So it's becoming clearer and clearer. You know, I'm kind of grateful, Cribbin for the mistakes made by dietary guidelines, because it really highlighted how not to eat.

Absolutely. You know, you're singing from the same hymn book and completely agreeing with everything you're saying. It's fantastic insight and advice. And how about just one more sort of mineral? How about salt? Salt is highly vilified when it comes to things like hypertension, heart disease. What's your take on salt?

So people have forgotten that iodine deficiency was a major public health issue all throughout human history. When people moved away from the coasts and often did not know that eating the thyroid glands of animals was an essential practice because it contained iodine. So goiters, enlarged thyroid glands in the front of the neck was a huge public health problem. People died of it. If you go to the museum, look at statues, you'll see a lot of them have goiters. And so because a goiter is not benign, you can die of suffocation, you can die of heart failure, you can go into a coma from it. So this is huge. It took till 1920s for everyone to figure out, oh, it's lack of iodine. So in the US and other countries, it was dealt with in different ways in different parts of the world. But in the US for instance, the FDA said to salt manufacturers, please put iodine in your salt. And then they launched a public health campaign. Back then, there was no Internet, of course, no tv, no radio. Quarter of the population was illiterate. They said, use more iodized salt. Keep your family goiter free. So people listen, salt their food. Then dietary guidelines came along and said, cut your fat, eat more grains, eat more healthy. That leads to insulin resistance. And there's proliferation of processed foods. Of course, people gain weight, insulin resistance, salt retention agencies like the FDA said, hey, quit using all that damn salt that we told you to use, forgetting about the iodine. So what they should have said, of course, is we got it wrong. Dietary guidelines are wrong. Use the salt, continue to get the iodine, or get your iodine from another source. It's the grains and sugars that are causing insulin resistance and salt retention, sodium retention. So of course, they got it all wrong. The solution, of course, is not to have insulin resistance and thereby sodium retention and continue to get your iodine doesn't have beef from iodized salt, but salt is essential. Salt makes food taste great and it reduces insulin resistance. So I tell people, once you go grain free, people have to salt their food. They have to salt their food cribbon and salt their water just a little bit, not to make it salty a little bit, because if they don't, they can pass out in the first week. I learned this long ago. When people go wheat grain and sugar free, one, we had to either cut back or stop their blood pressure medication even before they started because it was so spectacularly effective reducing blood pressure. But I had to have people salt their food and water because if they didn't, they'd pass out. That's how essential salt is.

Completely agree. Another potential option is again, coming back to the fermented foods. A lot of things like miso or sauerkraut, now they're loaded in salt naturally because it's part of the fermentation process. So that's another potential.

Excellent point. Yes.

I'm a huge advocate of making sure we have enough salt, especially for athletes or people who have very conscious on training and making sure we're getting all those electrolytes back into the body after exercise and sweating and sauna sessions and all that kind of stuff. So 100% agree. Total 180. When I was in the food industry and we're getting briefs to create all these products that are salt reduced or salt free. And then we're putting flavors and additives and stuff to make it feel like it's salty but not really salty. It's the same thing with sugar reduction projects. When you take the sugar out, you fill it with crap, maltodextrin or other fillers to get the body of the product, and then you load it with artificial sweeteners, which we know are extremely detrimental and damaging to your brain and also to the microbiome. One question that's absolutely burning. So, Dr. William, you came from the medical field. What was the turning point for you when you started to be more vocal about the limitations and start to shift more towards this kind of paradigm of food and clean eating and things like that? What was that turning point.

Was a series of, to be honest, cribbing blunders, mistakes. When I became a vegetarian 30 years ago, super low fat. And I'm Playing tennis, riding my bike, jogging several miles a few times a week. Very in my 30s, I became a type 2 diabetic, had triglyceride to 390, which I think in the your system would be what, about 78, 6 or so, 6 millimolar, something like that. In other words, I became a metabolic disaster, a type 2 diabetic, hypertensive fat. While I'm being real active eating low fat so that my mom dying of the disease. I took care of all the lessons I learned with CT heart scanning. But then after doing all these things and seeing spectacular, I also wrote a book, by the way, called Undoctored, because I saw that people had enormous control over the health, despite the doctor. Despite the doctor who said, oh, you're going to do that cribbing, I want to put you on Lipitor because you're going to have a heart attack. So I saw. That's why I wrote Undoctored, by the way, got me blacklisted from all major media. So that's why I'm so grateful for podcasts like yours, because I get to say what I think is true. You get to say what you think is true, but I can't say it on national TV because Big Pharma doesn't like that because they're paying $6 billion a year to air their commercials. So we can't say it there, but we can say it here. So, but so all of those, the list of residual problems like, sorry.

Beautiful light, sorry, beautiful sunlight.

But seeing how health problem, the residual health problems on these efforts. So one of the things that happened to me was I was thinking about, I don't even remember why this goes back, I think maybe four years. Four, five. Four or five years ago. I was thinking about the hormone oxytocin, of all crazy things. Oxytocin, of course, the hormone of love and empathy. And I stumbled across a series of very elegant studies out of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MIT, a cancer group. They published these studies from between 2013, 2017. And they were giving mice this microbe, Lactobacillus reuteri R E U T E R I named after the German microbiologist Dr. Gerhard Reuter. Well, they gave it to these mice, noticed that their fur within a week became, as they said, rich and luxuriant. So they thought, what's going on here? So they did a whole series of very detailed, elegant studies showing that L. Rotori, when given to mice, not only gave them thicker fur, caused their skin to thicken. There was an explosion dermal collagen There was a dramatic acceleration of healing. There was a preservation of youth. Mice that didn't get ruderi and got a bad diet. They fed them crappy food, got fat, diabetic, lost their hair, stopped mating, got old and fat. Mice that got rotori stayed slender, mated, played with each other, had rich, luxuriant fur. They stayed young until they died. Then subsequent studies, both animal and human, showed a number of other effects, like preservation of bone density, restoration of youthful muscles. And so I, I got the microbe they used in these very nice studies. It's made by a company in Sweden called Bio Gaia as a product called Gastrous. What the hell is going on with stuff floating around.

That is anyway angelic.

Anyway, sorry. So I got this microbe as this commercial product and I made yogurt out of it. Only not yogurt like in the store kind of yogurt. It's just a fermentation process. So you know what fermentation is? It's just a means of increasing microbial counts. And we ferment for a long time, 36 hours. Not the four hours of commercial fermentation, but 36 hours. And we did quantify the number of microbes. We get about 2,250 billion microbes per half cup serving. And we consume. I have thousands of people consuming this Lactobacillus rotorite yogurt.

What temperature was the fermentation process?

So Lactobacillus species, like human body temperature, they're well adapted to human body, so 97 to 100 Fahrenheit, so about 37, 38 Celsius. Well, I have tons of people consuming this yogurt. And everything that was seen in the mice and to some degree in human studies have been experienced by us. That is restoration, youthful muscle. There's an increase in libido, an increase in the erotic content of your dreams, like you're 19 again. Your skin is smoother, it's moister. Ladies love it because they get an explosion in dermal collagen, they lose their wrinkles.

Wow.

There's People also say, I like my partner better, I like my family better. I like. What the hell is going on?

That looks good. Lighting is fine.

I like my co workers better. People are less annoying to me. I understand other people's points of view better. So there's a restoration of better relations with other people. Empathy, desire for human connection. And I don't think it's a stretch to say many people, the experience varies, but many people tend to turn the clock back 10 or 20 years. It's a dramatic. Now that's one microbe, Cribben. That's one microbe. So it was an illustration of how powerful the restoration of this one microbe could be. And that, by the way, that microbe, Lactobacillus rotori, is unusually susceptible to common antibiotics like amoxicillin and ampicillin. If you took one of those antibiotics. I'm sorry about the lighting issue.

It's no problem.

If you took one of those common antibiotics, say for a science infection when you were 24, you've lost Rotori more than likely. And other microbes. That's part of the modern dilemma. We've lost many important species that did important things for our health, in this case boost oxytocin. So restoration of that microbe was life changing, but then it led to uncovering other microbes that have other kinds of big effects. Wow, this is crazy. I've never had this before. I guess I never did an interview at Sunrise.

It's a very early podcast this morning, 6am start. Yeah.

Are you using audio only or are you using video also?

I'll use video, but look, my YouTube is. We're not like this completely professional production studio, so our audience is very understanding. So no problem.

A little better.

That's fascinating. So I did come across this in a microbiome conference around four years ago about that connection with certain species of microbes and the oxytocin production. So it's even linked to a lot of these autism type symptoms as well. Some of these kids are deficient in some of these organisms. Say, spot on. I've got to try and make this yogurt. So how do I make it? So I got to get some biogaia gastros and then I put that into a couple of capsules into milk or something like that and then fermented for 37, for 36 hours.

Well, here's a secret.

Yeah.

So we do, we do have to be mindful of bacterial strain. This seems excessively tedious, but it's really important, that is if you have to pay attention to strain, because sometimes microbial species, the effects are unique to a strain. So for the best illustration I have is E. Coli. So I've got E. Coli, you've got E. Coli, your listeners have E. Coli. What if you ate lettuce contaminated by cow manure with E. Coli? Well, you can die of that. E. Coli. So same species, E. Coli, different strain. Well, so we do have to be at least mindful of strain. Now the strains I used from the gastrous product, those are two. And I'm sorry about these designations, but the DSM 17938 and the ATCC PTA 6475 strains. So those are the original strains. Now I've made the yogurt from seven other strains. Now I've gotten seven other strains of Rotor. There are almost 200 strains I've made and all the effects I got with the original strains I've experienced to the same degree or more. So now to prove this, I've got a small mouse trial. We're about to start to compare five different strains of Rotori and we're going to compare a whole bunch of different strains of rotary over time in mouse trials. Our first human trial for skin purposes is about to launch too. So we're going to have. One of the things I want to do, Cribbon is I want to say, okay, Cribbon, if you want the biggest effect, get this specific strain of rottery and you'll get the biggest benefit. But right now, can't say that because it's informal, but I think it's probably. I think it may be a species effect, not a strain specific effect. I tell you that because you can probably get any rotor eye and at least for these purposes, get those effects. The only one I would not get is what's called the 30242 strain, because one of the other aspects of Rotori makes it so wonderful is it takes up resonance in the upper GI tract, not just the colon, it takes up resonance in the upper GI tract. And it's a great producer of what are called bactericins, natural antibiotics effective against the species of stool, stool microbes like E. Coli and Klebsiella. So we have this epidemic. I think it's worse. In the US we have this epidemic that I estimate affects at least 100 million people here, one in three Americans, in which microbes, mostly stool microbes, E. Coli, because we've lost so many beneficial species like Rotori and others in their place, stool microbes, E. Coli, Klebsiella, Citrobacter, Campylobacter, pseudomonas, have proliferated, then ascended into the 24ft of small bowel, adding up to 30ft of trillions of microbes that turn over rapidly. They only live for minutes to hours, days at most. When they die, their breakdown products enter the bloodstream. This is now validated with good science over the last decade. This process is called endotoxemia, but it tells us now how microbes in the GI tract can be experienced as a skin rash like rosacea or psoriasis, or in the brain as depression or Alzheimer's dementia or Parkinson's disease, or in the joints and muscle as fibromyalgia, rheumatoid arthritis. In other words, we have to rethink all human disease in light of this fact that microbes in the GI tract can be experienced in virtually every organ. Brain, uterus, prostate, pancreas, heart.

Everything has to be redefined completely with the hexa lpss. Absolutely. They can pass the blood brain barrier, cause all sorts of havoc, low level systemic inflammation throughout the body. So 100% agree with what you're saying. So how about we. We transition now? I know we've touched a bit when we were talking about the Rooter eye. How about we talk about what is super gut? I'm fascinated. What's this concept of supergut? And obviously I highly encourage people to actually go out and get a copy of the book Super Gut. It's going to go into far more depth and we're going to be able to cover in this podcast. But what is a supergas? And how do we attain such a, such a feat, a super gas?

So it's based on those two things we mentioned, that is one, replacing microbes that we've lost, and then two, addressing the overgrowth of unhealthy species. And some people get overwhelmed by this, but I tell them, so when you're replacing lost microbes, think of it like going to a restaurant. So if you go to a restaurant and the waitress hands you a menu and you see lists, long lists of appetizers and main dishes and desserts and side. You don't go. You don't freak out and say, there's no way I can order all these dishes. So you pick and choose the ones you want. So when it comes to replacing microbes, you can say things like, okay, if I want smoother skin and deeper sleep, I'm going to replace Lactobacillus reuteri. If I want a reduction in arthritis pain, I'm going to ferment bacillus coagulants. If I want to shrink my waist and lose visceral fat, I'm going to ferment Lactobacillus gasseri. If I want a healthier baby that sleeps through the night, has fewer bowel movements, fewer diaper changes for mom and dad, less likely to have asthma, irritable bowel syndrome, less likely to become obese as a teenager and have a higher iq, I'm going to Ferment Bifidobacteria infantis. You can pick and choose the microbe for the effect you want and then ferment. It could be yogurt. Doesn't have to be. It could be other fermented foods, of course. And then we do have to. If you do that, if you want to reintroduce these wonderful, powerful microbial species, you do have to consider, do you have overgrowth of unhealthy microbes in your GI tract now? If you do. And by the way, there's a new device. Do I have it here? Here it is. It's called the AirA Device A I R E. So it talks to your smartphone. You blow into it. It's a mapping device. It maps out where microbes are in your GI tract. The difficulty is it only came out 2018, 2019. This is the old device, by the way. The new one's black. The mine's in the kitchen. The new one measures both hydrogen gas and methane. So the inventor, Dr. Angus Short in Dublin, Ireland, invented it because his fiance, now wife, but fiance at the time, had irritable bowel syndrome and was told to go on that diet that came out of Monash University, the low fodmaps diet, as low fiber, low sugar diet. But he saw how awful it was for her when she slipped up. So he invents this device to measure hydrogen gas from inadvertent exposure to fodmaps. He releases the device as a device for IBS and low FODMAPs dye. So I called my. I said, angus, that's not what this is. This thing you invented. That's not what it is. It's a device to map out where in the GI tract microbes are living difficulty. The instructions that come with the device, if anybody gets it, don't tell you how to use it like that. They tell you how to use it for FODMAPs and IBS. So I have seven pages. It's not that tough, but there's seven pages of how to use it in my super gut book to map where microbes are. Because if you identify microbes in the upper GI tract, you got to do something about it. Because if you don't, that's sibo. If you don't do. If you say, oh, this is too difficult, too hard. My doctor has no idea what I'm talking about. He told me I was nuts. He said, did you consult Dr. Google again? So I don't want to do it. Well, putting your head in the sand about that, it's A problem because it leads to weight gain, obesity, type 2 diabetes, neurodegenerative diseases, autoimmune diseases, diverticular disease, IRO bowel syndrome, ulcerative colitis, and colon cancer. So it's foolhardy to not look for this. What should be happening, Cribbon, is all my colleagues should say, cribbon, we're going to look for hydrogen gas in your breath, map out where microbes are and help you correct it. But they're not because there's no money in it and their education is so outdated. And this, all this new science that's flooding out at breakneck pace is most. I'm generalizing. Of course, there are good functional medicine doctors and some who have kept abreast, but most have not and will make fun of you if you even bring this up now. What do you do if you do have microbes living in your upper GI tract because you tested by the air device, or you have what I call telltale signs like fat malabsorption, seeing fat droplets in the toilet, or food intolerances. If you say, I can't eat eggplants or tomatoes, nightshades, or I can't eat fodmaps or histamine containing foods or nuts or fruit or legumes. These are all forms of sibo. So the solution is not food avoidance. You can do that to relieve your symptoms. The solution is to address the sibo. So there are these telltale signs. There are conditions that are so highly associated with SIBO that if you have those conditions, it's reasonable just to pursue an effort to eradicate it. Conditions like irritable bowel syndrome, fibromyalgia, restless leg syndrome, any neurodegenerative or autoimmune disease. Ulcerative colitis, Crohn's disease, so highly fatty liver, obesity. Well, the conventional way of dealing with this overgrowth issue, sibo, is to take an antibiotic carbon. I got a problem with that. Antibiotics got us here to a large degree. Other factors too, but antibiotics to a great degree. And the solution is an antibiotic. So the antibiotic they use typically is rifaximin or xifaxan, which is only about 40, 50% effective. And I think that's an exaggerated. I think it's more like 25% effective, so not very good. And of course the gastroenterologist or other doctor says, I don't know why you have it. Don't bother me. Take this. It doesn't go away. Don't bother me. It doesn't tell you how to prevent Recurrences. It comes with ignorance, essentially. There are herbal antibiotics that I was skeptical about, but there are some regimens, two of which have been corroborated through some clinical trial evidence. The candobactin regimen, the FC subtle dysbiocide regimen, do have some evidence for efficacy. But I'll tell you what I've been doing. Now, this is preliminary. We haven't published any data on it yet. We will, that is. Gee, if I took a probiotic, a commercial probiotic, that is a haphazard slap dash collection of microbes put together with no rhyme or reason. If I took a commercial probiotic for sibo, will my sibo go away? No. It might reduce bloating a little bit, might reduce some diarrhea, but you're still left with 30ft of proliferated microbes. I asked, what if we chose microbial species that take up residency, upper GI tract where SIBO occurs? What if we chose species that are producers of bacteriacy, these natural antibiotics effective against species of sibo? So I chose three. I chose a strain of Lactobacillus gasseri, takes up resin, small bowel, produces up to seven bactericins. So it's a bactericin powerhouse. Rotori, our old friend Rotori, takes up resin, small gi, small bowel, produces up to four bactericins. And I threw in some bacillus coagulants. One bactericin. We fermented as yogurt or other fermented foods for extended period, 36 hours. It's delicious, by the way. And so far, about 90% of people who've consumed this yogurt have gone from H2 positive to H2 negative. Now, that's informal, it's anecdotal. We will do a clinical trial, but we can't do it as yogurt because it's too hard to control in a clinical trial. Do as a. We'll have to encapsulate it. But so far. And you know what? Cribin. If the solution was colon removal, colectomy, or frontal lobotomy, you better be damn certain that what you're doing is the right answer. But what if the solution could be a yogurt? We don't have to be 100% certain. It's so benign. You do have to take it longer than an antibiotic. We do it for four weeks. And so far, the only complicating factor here is because Rotori takes up resins in the upper GI tract, and it does produce hydrogen gas. If you do the yoga. You have to stop it for two weeks before you retest. You have to give some time for the Rotori to go away. I wish that wasn't true, but the rotori is such an important component, I think, of eradicating sibo that. But so far, 90% of people have converted to negative.

Wow, this is really exciting information. In your book Super Gut, do you have recipes that people can follow? So you've got your air device, how to use the air device, but do you have some protocols or some recipes that people can follow along with? You know, it could be like grabbing a couple of capsules and a recipe to make these products to, to try it for themselves and then test with the device.

So there's recipes, for instance, for tzatziki, that Middle Eastern dish that's either like, use like a dip or a sauce. Well, you can make Lactobacillus gastrite, tzatziki or Lactobacillus reuterites. You can incorporate these things into your foods. Various fermented foods. One of my favorites, this one's not in the book because I just thought of it recently, is Saccharomyces boulardi. Sparkling juices. So take like apple cider, not apple juice, but apple cider with the cloudy stuff that's just pressed apples. I've done coconut pineapple juice. I've done mango passion fruit juice. You want a juice that has no preservatives in it, no potassium sorbate, no sodium benzoate, etc. Just juice, and then take a capsule of Saccharomyces boulardii. In the US it's called Floristore. It has different brand names in different parts of the world. So I don't know all the names in your neck of the woods, but it's a commercial product that contains Saccharomyces boulardii. That's a relative, a cousin of Saccharomyces cerevisiae, used to ferment wine and beer. But Boulardi is better adapted to the human body. So we take a capsule into any volume of juice, cap it very lightly, not tightly, because within 24 hours you're going to see it bubbling. The fermentation process so vigorous, depending which kind of juice you use, and then by 48 hours, you've got very high counts of Saccharomyces boulardii. It's probably the most important thing people can do if you ever take an antibiotic. So if you take an antibiotic, for whatever reason, it screws up Your microbiome massively. Well, Boulardi is not a bacteria, it's a fungus. So it's impervious to antibiotics, and it helps maintain your microbiome through a course of antibiotics. And, and even if you're not taking an antibiotic, it acts like a traffic cop. It kind of keeps order. It suppresses pathogens and encourages proliferation of healthy microbes. So it's a really good practice to make these sparkling juices and sip a quarter cup a day. When you ferment, you reduce sugar content, so it starts very high. Sugar ferment for about 48 hours. It cuts sugar content by about half, but we only drink small portions, like 4 ounces at most, quarter cup to half cup, so that you're not getting overexposed to sugar. Do that a couple times a day. But it's a very useful addition to any kind of effort to restore a healthy microbiome. But those are the kinds of recipes that are in the Super Gut book.

Wow. It's really, it's. It's a very exciting concept. I mean, I've seen people play around with different capsules and of different probiotic products and then make fermented foods out of it. But I love that you've put everything into one book where people can get some. Some ideas, some inspiration, some recipes to play around. But, you know, it's almost like an extension of your fermented food. So rather than just popping a capsule and popping a pill, start to ferment with it and potentially even boosting up the numbers of these organisms so that they're much more potent than, say, a pill preparation.

So, you know, we should point out to your listeners that people think that a probiotic is the best thing you can do for your microbiome. That's not true, at least not in the current crop of commercial probiotics. Most important thing you can do is fermented foods. Do like your great grandma did and ferment your vegetables and have other fermented, fermented meats. That's much more important than a commercial probiotic.

Completely agree. I'm very conscious of your time, Dr. William. Just a couple more questions and we'll start to wrap. I'm very interested to hear your thoughts on some other ideas, on some highlights, potentially without giving away too much of the book on things that people can do to foster a healthy gut microbiome that builds. Builds on the fermented foods that you spoke about in the probiotics.

Well, I tell people they sometimes think this is overwhelming, especially they're not getting the help of their doctor, usually. And so I tell people, think of this. I don't know how this works in Bali or in Melbourne, but think of it in Wisconsin, where I am. If you want to have a springtime garden, how do you do that? Well, we wait till May and then we maybe lay out a 10 by 10 plot or so. You pick out the sticks and the weeds and the rocks, then you plant seeds and then you water and fertilize it through growing season. And after a couple of months you've got zucchini and cucumbers and tomatoes, etc. Well, the microbiome, the intestinal microbiome is just like that. Let's prepare the soil that has removed the factors that disrupt things. So filter your water of chlorine and fluoride. Try to get whenever your budget permits. And then when it's available, organic foods without herbicides, pesticides, no GMOs, of course, with glyphosate and Bt toxin and other things. No sugars. Get rid of the grains that are massive disruptors of GI health because wheat, germagglutinin and other things. Avoid foods with long lists of ingredients because it's often. They often contain preservatives and emulsifying agents and synthetic sweeteners like aspartame. So we clean up the soil, then we plant seeds. The fermented foods, as you point out, the most important seeds of all. Probiotics. Yeah, kind of helpful. They will become better as probiotic manufacturers get smarter and incorporate some of the better science. Such as there are groups of microbes that are called guilds or consortia that work together. There's only one product cribbing. I only have one product on the market that actually does that. It's called Sugar Shift. I have nothing to do with the company, nor do I have anything to do with the air device. They're my friends. I know these people now, but they don't pay me. But Sugar Shift, by a company called BioTiquest B O T I Quest, the microbiologist who designed that product, Dr. Raul Cano in San Diego, devised a consortium of microbes that work together to reduce blood sugar. We gave it to 20 people in our program and reduced blood Sugar by about 10 milligrams per deciliter, which is on a par with a prescription drug, but of course not a drug. But until better concepts like that are incorporated into probiotics, current probiotics are only a little bit helpful. They do increase mucus production, they do suppress pathogens, but they don't really correct the situation. So as as probiotics get better, perhaps we'll have to revise that idea. But probiotics are can serve as seeds in addition to fermented foods and then water and fertilize your garden. That is get foods that nourish microbes. These are mostly prebiotic fibers and polysaccharides and polyphenols. These are foods that you're all familiar with, like onions, garlic, shallots, legumes, black beans, white beans, kidney beans, chickpeas, lentils, dandelion greens, essentially plant foods, mushrooms.

Awesome. That's an amazing advice. I think there's plenty to go on from this episode. I think we'll start to wrap now. Dr. William if there is one thing that someone could do for their gut health today, what would it be?

You know, it's old news by now, but eliminate wheat and grains. People don't recognize just how disruptive those things are until they stop them and they say, you know what? I didn't realize how awful I really did feel. I thought I was healthy, but I wasn't till I got rid of them and things I thought had nothing to do with my diet went away. Like my skin rash, my joint pain, my depression, etc. Though if I had another thing, fermented foods cribbing. We all forgot about fermented foods when home refrigeration became a thing. And you know this, people in Europe, Asia, South Pacific are better at incorporating fermented foods. In the U.S. north America, almost everybody's forgotten about fermented food. That's a big mistake. Fermented foods are not only very healthy, they're delicious too.

Yeah, wonderful advice. You know, totally agree with all these recommendations that you've made. Now someone's listening to this show. They're fascinated by your passion. They're excited to go out and get a copy of Super Guts and all your your prior works. How can people find you?

Well, the Super Gut book is available everywhere in the us. It is pretty available internationally too. There's also my I closed up a lot of my old websites just because they were My old wheat belly blog that got visited 30 million times is now folded into Dr. Davisinfinitehealth.com and there's a blog there. There's a membership, inner circle and tons of stuff on there. So it's drdavisinfinitehealth.com awesome.

I really appreciate time. I've learned so much by spending this hour with you. I really appreciate it. Dr. William Davis and you certainly inspiration and you've given me so much and I hope the audience enjoy this episode. Thank you so much. Much.

Well, thank you Greven and thank you for what you're doing because we really do need to preserve the means to get the real message out.

Awesome. Thank you so much.

We hope you enjoyed this episode of the Gut Health Gurus podcast with Dr. William Davis. If you found this podcast of value, leave us a kind review and five stars on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube or your favorite podcasting app. If you want to connect with our host, Cribban Govender, please follow him on Instagram and facebookthealthgurus. Also check out our Gut Health Gurus Facebook group. With 17,000 members ready to help you on your journey to amazing gut health, this episode is sponsored by Nourish Me Organics. Head to www.nourishmealgroup organics.com au and use the code HappyGut for 10% off. Make sure to check out their Biogaia El Rootary supplement to make your own L Rotary yogurt at home. A special shout out to Cassie Coulson who scored 100% on our parasite quiz. Check out the link in description to have a go until next time.