Reflections On Living An Authentic Life | Matthew McConaughey

But I do believe there is some science to satisfaction. Because I found too many consistencies. I've seen too many people that have consistent habits that find satisfaction.

Welcome to Doctor's Pharmacy. I'm Dr. Mark Hyman. That's Pharmacy with an F, F-A-R-M-A-C-Y, a place for conversations that matter. And if you've ever wondered about your life story, what it means, where you've been, where you're going, how to get to happiness and figure it all out. I think you're gonna love this conversation with a guy you might know. His name is Matthew McConaughey. He's an Academy Award winning actor. He's a married man, the father of three beautiful children, a loyal son, a brother. He's a storyteller by occupation. He thinks it's okay to have a beer on the way to temple, feels better with a day's sweat on him, and is an aspiring orchestral conductor. Holy cow. That's impressive. In 2009, he founded with his wife, Camila called the Just Keep Living Foundation, which I think was inspired by his dad. And it's this beautiful work to take kids who are underserved, disadvantaged, and struggling and give them an opportunity to actually get into meaning and purpose in after-school programs and help their lives in mind, body, and spirit. And it's really great because these kids are struggling. He's also a professor. You're a professor of something called practice. I don't know what that is at the University of Texas, Austin and Minneapolis. And And he's also, you might have seen him on Lincoln ad commercials for Lincolns. He's also co-creator of his favorite bourbon on the planet, Wild Turkey Long Branch. And I just, Matthew, welcome to the podcast. Good to be here, Mark. So I have a fun connection with Wild Turkey. I was a doctor in training in Northern California and this woman came in who had terrible emphysema. She was a chronic smoker. and every, you know, I took her medical history and she was a skinny little lady and her husband was this big guy with a big cowboy hat and she got me to the hospital with emphysema and I asked her history and it's like, what do you do, you know, your medications? Well, I take two shots of wild turkey every night before bed. And I'm like, this one was like 75. Am I gonna change that? So I wrote in the medical orders, two shots of wild turkey before bed every night.

I've got my mom who with us and she gets into her white wine. And some doctors when they hear like, well, that's quite a bit. Maybe that's too much. I'm like going, do you see how good a shape this woman is? Whatever it is, just put that in the prescription.

That's right. That's right. No changes. So your book just came out a little while ago, Green Lights. Fantastic. It's kind of a, it's almost like a scrapbook of your life with poetry and bumper stickers and aphorisms and insights and it sort of lays all that into beautiful storytelling about how you got to be you. And you've come up with this idea which I think, you know, without really being specifically naming it, you're really talking about how do our souls and spirits and minds evolve? How do we evolve and grow and become who we are? And how do we take the notes that come to us and the signs that come to us and the invisible threads that connect everything. And how do we follow those in an authentic way that can lead us to have an authentic life? So in a way, this book was beautiful to me because it was talking about your own life, but it was an example of how do you build an authentic life that is based on your values and based on curiosity and hunger to know and wanting to explore the way the universe is and what the meaning of life is. you know, I think, you know, most people haven't had the possibility of knowing that side of you as an actor because you're out there and you fulfill these roles and they might have seen you this for that role, but like as a human being, you're very complex and you know, quite extraordinary. And I think you came up with this concept of green lights and it's sort of a memoir, but it's really more of a, an approach to life book. And, and you talk about how do you, how do you deal with the tragedies in life and you've had them and how do you deal with the obstacles that you've had and we all have them and. what you call red lights. And how do you turn those into moments of growth, understanding, success, or what we call green lights? And then how do you kind of turn the red lights into green lights? So how do you come up with this whole idea? And how did you sort of figure out that this is how you want.

To live your life? Yeah, so this is based on, and you said it earlier, sort of a scrapbook of my life. This is, the book's based on 36 years of keeping journals and diaries. And so I've been keeping it since I was 14, now 37 years, and threatening to go see if everything in those journals or parts of those journals were worth sharing. But never had the courage to go do it. For 15 years, I've been like, ah, let's go see. Maybe there's a book there. My excuse was, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, you'll die. Maybe Camilla will look at it, if something's worth sharing, she'll put it out there. Finally, I got the courage to go, well, let's go see. and I went out and I had an idea of what I thought was going to be in there. I actually thought it was going to be quite academic. And as I'm going through it for my first three days in solitary confinement, I was like, this is more sort of philosophical and poetic, not exact, it's not academic. And I was like, well, let's back off of this and let's just see what it is. Instead of you trying to tell it what it should be, let the journals reveal to you what it should be. or what it is. And that's it. I started finding categories, consistent categories. I had a big stack of a bunch of stories, big stack of a bunch of people, places, prescribes, poems, prayers, and bumper stickers. And I was like, okay, so there's my lanes, there's my categories. Let me sift through those and see if I find a common denominator, a baseline. And that's where green lights came from. I saw that there were ways that I engineered green lights in my life. like decisions I made, risk I took, sacrifices I made today that paid off tomorrow, that were kind and cool to my future self, by decisions I made, responsibilities. I found that man, I've gotten lucky a few times. Sometimes green light opportunities fell in my lap and I was like, whoa, what's the reason for this? And I said, when I said- Like being in the right place, you can go and introduce myself to a guy who turns out to be a casting director who turns out to offer me a role which has three lines, which turns into three weeks' worth with which if I didn't meet that guy that night, would I be sitting here talking to you with the life I have right now? Probably not. So I saw times where green light opportunities fell in my lap and I did something with them. I saw times where maybe a moment fell in my lap and I didn't do anything with it. And I'm still wondering, oh, would that have, what would have been the outcome if I had taken advantage of that? And then I noticed that all the hardships in my life, the places where there was sickness or death or loss or failure that or struggle that each one of them had a lesson in them that I either noticed a little bit at the time or a year later or five years later, 10 years later, or have not yet to learn, but trusting that I will learn them later in this life or my kids will in another generation. And so then I was like, oh, look, all the red and yellows, they may not be what we want, but inside them they have something that we need and Therefore, they are inherently green lights. And so that's what that sort of became the theme, that became the Autobahn theme of the book in a way that I try to approach life in an optimist, a realistically optimistic way. Because as you see the book, I'm an optimist and I think it's more than just looking on the bright side. I think it's absolutely essential for survival. But I don't want to be foolish with it. you know, what do you trust? As you said, what science do you trust? Which ones do you not trust? It's a constant art, you know? But I do believe in times and looked at my habits, I was like, oh, yeah, I see the math. I see why. So just trying to uncover some of the science in this riddle called life.

Like we're all trying to do to some extent. Yeah, it's a work in progress, clearly, from the book. You're halfway through and you're like looking back, look forward, figure out what you can do next. And I think, you know, what the beautiful story within it is that the red lights and the yellow lights actually are in their own way green lights, right? And it sort of reminds me of the story of this guy back way back in the day who was, you know, out in the fields and had found this incredible black stallion and took him home and, and everybody said, God, what a blessing. You found this wild stallion. How wonderful. He says, oh, what seems like a blessing could be a curse and what seems like a curse could be a blessing. And then he rides the stallion and he falls off and he breaks his leg and then Everybody goes, oh, how terrible, but a tragedy. Oh, it seems like a curse could be a blessing. It seems like a blessing could be a curse. And then, you know, this big war breaks out and, you know, the government comes to recruit all the young men. He's got a broken leg. He's like, oh, so it's like you.

Never know what's going on. And yeah, right, there it is. I mean, is that an answer? No, but it's a framework. It's a perspective. that sure helps with some sanity and getting more we want and maybe being able to deal with what we don't want a little bit better. My approach, I think of that, and I bring it up early, is that when faced with the inevitable, get relative. That's just basically a play off of what Confucius said about dealing with what we can and not worrying about what we can't. When is that time when we deem an outcome inevitable? you know, well, if we deem an outcome, if we're going after something and we're not getting it, if we say, oh, well, it's inevitable I'm not gonna get it too soon, well, we're quitters. We needed some endurance. We needed to have more giddy up and more break a sweat more. We didn't wanna work as hard. But on the other side, if we're banging our head against a wall trying to get what we want, trying to get the same outcome over and over and never getting it, we're acting out the definition of an insanity. And we call the inevitable earlier and back off and pivot or raise the white flag and move on to fight another day. Yeah.

I mean, one of the striking things I found in your story was that you clearly have understood a very simple concept, which most people don't, which that you are the author of your own life. You're not the victim of your life. And I'm really curious about how you came to that conclusion because this is something that most people, I think, don't get to. They feel at the effect of their life, not at the cause of their life.

Well, look, let's unpack that because this one, I don't get it.

I'm going deep, Matthew.

No, let's unpack it. It's a great one because on the very simplest level, the alternative sucks, man.

Yeah, it does.

I mean, I'm saying, we should all grab a hold of and grasp our ability to self-determine. and look that in the eye. Life's a hell of a lot more fun. It's a little hell of a lot more hard in the right kind of ways. It's more entertaining. The alternative, I just don't get, it's like doom and gloom.

Like were you born that way or did something happen to you or you had the inside...

I mean, I don't know if I was born that way, 'cause I don't remember, but I do know that we were taught, We were taught a lot of resilience. We were taught, Be more you than because you're the only one. And if everybody could just be more them and invest in yourself, get to know thyself, then you're an original. That, you know, in that way we've always, I did have an outlaw sort of renegade upbringing that you sort of a libertarian, you take care of yourself. You are not you will be done unto, but you also will do unto. And you are responsible for that, for whatever those consequences are. There's a cost. There's a cost for those things. Now for me, I just rather be in the know, even when I screw up or fail. I like looking in the mirror going, yep, guilty. But I also, on the other hand, when I pull something off, like to look in the mirror and go, yep, there we go. You had something to do with that.

So that sort of speaks to your concept of being selfless and selfish and how they're not contradictory, right?

Oh, not ultimately. We've got to look. Selfish has gotten a bad rap. We've bashed that. It's gotten a bad rap along through the years. You know, everyone's like, don't be selfish. It's like, it's like humble. Be more humble. Oh, yeah.

So.

But who wants to be humiliated? Nobody. Well. Hang on a second, these things go part and parcel. Selfish? What do you mean get rid of the ego? No, don't get rid of the ego. You'll have no judgment. You'll have no identity. No, you have to have the ego. You're a singular organism. You are original. That does not mean, well then I cannot be utilitarian. That does not mean, well then I don't give a damn about others. And that's what I bring up in college. I wrote this term, a paper in college called egotistical utilitarian.

I was like, yeah, unpack that. That sounds like a mouthful.

Well, there's been many great people that have walked the earth that have been it, but for one, let's just pick out one of the prophets, Jesus, egotistical utilitarian. He was doing for the I what was best for the we. His acts were, even the root of a religious belief in existence, if you are that, is that the life we live matters for what happens if you're a believer in an afterlife, it matters what we do here, right? So, wouldn't it be a very selfish act if you're a believer to act in a certain manner now so that you could have life everlasting? That would be what would be the more selfish act, to act in a way that you have better chance for life everlasting, or act in a way to where it's over and you're going to hell of purgatory, whatever it is. I mean, selfish act, you act in a way that you can live longer. So that's just on a religious front, but even non-religious. Delayed gratification.

Yeah.

Delayed gratification. There are choices that we can make for us selfishly that are also the most self less choice and best for the most amount of people. If we just think far out enough, what's a more selfish thing as a, let's stereotype for a second, as a white male, Okay, with a certain amount of power that I've either created or I've got to hoard it right now and lock out opportunity, or let's just say very selfishly to maybe work to create more opportunities for women or minorities to be able to get what they want. Well, even at the most selfish level, I got a daughter. Well, I'd say it's probably more selfish to create more opportunity. So she and other people can go out. I've got friends that are minority. It'd probably be more, it'd be more selfish act to create more opportunity than it would be to hoard away and put up walls and say, I'm gonna hold on to mine, I'm not sharing it. So I think it's just extension of the law, having a longer view of understanding what selfish really is. Selfish has to do with delayed gratification if we look, if we project far enough ahead of us, and it's not just immediate gratification. If I pick your pocket, steal your wallet. Well, what's more selfish doing that? And now the next time I'm in Maui, I'm going, Geez, I hope Mark ain't here, man, 'cause he's after me. Now I've bought time. I've created stress, created yellow lights in my future because I now have to go through life looking over my shoulder. Well, which one's more selfish? To live in a way where I don't have to go into the future looking over my damn shoulder at the crumbs I've left.

Yeah, that's so true. So, you know, I think that's a very unique perspective because most people think of sort of them as opposite, either selfish or selfless. And I think it's important to remember that our own personalities are the wedge through which we go through the world and actually have impact on the things. And I agree. I think I see that in my own life where things that I've had to do for myself have also benefited others, right? So, I got really sick when I was younger and had to figure out what was wrong with me. It was very selfish because I want to feel better, but that what I learned helped me help so many other people.

All right. I want to change this though. Let's bring up this. I think everyone, if you don't want to purchase yet what I'm talking about, about being selfish out there, I think we can all admit that we do a hell of a lot more and we're a hell of a lot more true and better when it's personal.

Yeah, that's true.

You've got to be personal. That doesn't mean it's not. relatable and something that can translate to more people.

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Now back to this week's episode. All right, let's take a different tack because one of the things that struck me is your incredible ability to witness notes in your life. You can call them notes from God or the universe or life or whatever and pay attention and then follow them in ways that transform your life. And one of the most extraordinary stories I loved in the book was when you were having these dreams and you had these recurrent dreams of floating down the Amazon River was wrapped in anaconda, surrounded by crocodiles and African tribesmen on the shore. And you're like, you know, what is his dream? And then you're like, you know, well, I don't know, but you had the dream again. And then you're like, I better do something about it. And so, you know, you did something that most people would never do. Like, let's see, that looks like Africa. I'm gonna go to Africa. I don't know where the fuck I'm gonna go. I'm like, oh, I know this one guy who's a musician and. Maybe I'll go see him and then sort of follow the rabbit hole and see where it goes. And I want you to answer two things. One is, who are you that you would actually do that? And what does that take to actually have a sign and follow it? And what is that lesson for the rest of us? And two, what the hell happened on that trip? And how did that transform you into who you are now? Because that seemed like a giant green light.

It was. Absolutely. Well, look, my life, like probably yours and most of our lives, I've had a lot of successes by one, writing the headline first, setting the goal, then going after it. And then I've had a lot of success doing things like this example you're talking about, chasing down, literally chasing down a dream, jumping off the cliff and saying, I'm going to figure out how to fly on the way down, go down that rabbit hole. And we've all know this. What's the hardest part about going into something that looks hard or going to the damn gym, putting your shoes on. That's the hardest part, getting out the door. So this is where I just said, I'm putting them on the backpack and I'm heading out. I don't know what the answer is, but I'm going. Now, why did I listen to it? Well, one, and look, I believe we got signs around us all the time. And we can make poetry of the signs, but they're there to make poems of, make the rhyme of the reason or give reason to the rhyme. all the time. We don't notice them all, but they're there. How do we connect the dots? When do we connect the dots? To say, oh, that's a truth, that's a place, that's a vision. This is where I need to go for me. Well, in this particular story you're talking about, the alarming thing is it was the exact same dream. It wasn't a dream. I remember I had the dream in 1990. three, I think, first, and then I had the same dream in 96. Three years later, the exact same dream. Not like that dream in 93, the exact same dream with the same outcome. Yeah. Like you just like floating down the Amazon, wrapped in an African tribesman, piranhas, sharks, everything. Sounds like a nightmare, right?

Yeah.

The opposite of a nightmare. That's alarming to me. I'm like, there's nothing sexual about that. What was that about? And it was the exact same dream. 11 frames, when I mean frames like camera frames. Click, click, click, 11 frames exactly and then the same outcome of the dream and I awake. Well, the second time I had that dream, I immediately awake and go, that is the exact frame for frame dream with the exact outcome I had three years ago. Whoa, okay. Somebody's telling me something. I've never had the exact same dream like that. That was that odd. That was some, somebody, I don't know.

Who that somebody is.

Somebody something. I don't know. I don't know, but this is a sign. So let me go down to now, what are the facts? What's the script give me? I know two things geographically. It's the Amazon River and there's African tribesmen. So I go to the Atlas of Africa to look for the Amazon River and as you know, you can look a mighty long time, you're not gonna find it. It's the wrong time.

It's probably the Nile, Zambezi River.

So I then find the Amazon, obviously in South America, and say, that's my first check. I'm gonna go float the Amazon. Put on a backpack, head out, go down there, hike, hitchhike, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, dude, have my trip 22 days. I come back. Ah, I did it. I chased down the dream. I chased down, and I was so fulfilled. The brown eye, the wet eyes of the South American and the Peruvians. Learned a lot about humanity and culture.

Well, you're married to one of them now. Yeah.

And I got a wave from her, from her tail down there in that 96. So now cut to 1999. This is three years later. I've forgotten it. That all worked. I'm in Dublin, Ireland. Stayed at the Morrison Hotel. And I have the same dream again, the exact same dream, with the exact same outcome. Now I've had it three times. I'm like, what the, well, what do I know? There's only, oh, I chased down the first half to the Amazon in '96. What's the other thing I know? African tribesman. Oh, where do I go in Africa? Mighty big continent. Mmm-. Listening to the park ranger one night and I go, wait, he's African, where's he from? Open up line notes, Neo Funky, great, maybe that'll be a start. Let me just get, again, put on my shoes and get out the door. I'll go find him and see where that leads me. And as you see in the story, it's another 22-day trip that was glorious and it finished off the other half of the dream. Now, 2021, I've not had the dream since. I believe I fulfilled the prophecy of the dream by following down the two, by chasing down the two geographical places and things that the dream gave me. And spiritually, they were the most awakening trips I've ever had. And adventurous and wild and fun.

Yeah, well, tell us about Michael or Michelle. Well, you know, because I mean, that didn't sound like a spiritually awakening moment with this guy.

It was, I mean, it was bloody.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, In the Bongolia Gara in Mali where I went in Africa, we would hike me and my guide, Issa, from village to village. And the villages were like 8 to 15 miles apart. Now, I had just come off a film, Reign of Fire, where I was playing a dragon slayer. And I had a bald head and a big beard. And I was in really good physical shape. And seeking anonymity, as I have done before and did on this trip, I went over under a different name. and said, my name is David. I'm a writer and a boxer.

Boxer, that's a dangerous occupation to advertise.

That's what I found out, because trust me, those Africans didn't give a damn about the writer part. They were quite keen on the boxer part, right? So even when I landed, was there a few days, I noticed when I'd show up places that my being there, my story had preceded me. So I would show up places, they would go, ah, you are Douda, which is Bambara for David. Strong white men named Douda, de boxer. Yes, and so they loved to wrestle in Africa. So they would come up and they'd kind of push and so I was in a couple of circumstances where I was, there was a few of the blokes where I was like, I really don't want anything to do with this. And so I would, I'd take a stance like I was Bruce Lee or something and it looked really technical and they would all just jump back and go, Chuck Norris! Chuck Norris!

No, no, no!

This one night, I hiked to this, I hike, it was a long hike, about 12 mile hike, and I go to this, get to this place called Benjamatu, this great little village on top of this mountain that was part Muslim, part animist, and part Protestant.

And it's a nice combo.

And they have, they have, there's two, there's two rock walls, and there's all the three religions and then I don't even know what the other one, the fourth one was for, but they lived pretty harmoniously. And I'm doing what I would do after a hike each day. I'm laying over there on the stretching on the ground and the villagers walk up. I'm a novelty to look at. I've got lighter skin. I've got this beard. I'm strong white man named Dauda that they have heard of in the past. And they're looking and they're talking bombarding to me and all of a sudden these two younger men about 18 to 20 start talking in a way that I can tell they're talking at me. And I can tell in their tone they're challenging me. And I say to my guide, he said, they trying to start something with me? He says, Yes, Douda. These two men say they are the champion wrestlers of the village and they want to challenge strong white men, Douda, named Douda, to a wrestling match. And I'm like, oh, geez, okay, all right. So I'm laying there thinking, I'm all in this overstretching. Well, all of a sudden, I hear the crowd just go crazy berserk, and I look up and those two young men run. Why do they run? As the crowd separates, somebody steps up in the middle with the burlap bag wrapped around their waist, no shirt, no shoes, because this is Michelle. And I find out Michelle is the true champion wrestler of the village. And they were getting busted for saying they were champions. well, Michelle doesn't say a word to me. He just comes and stands over me, points down at me, points to his chest, and then points over to the right. Now, I'm laying on the ground looking up at this man, Michelle, these tree trunk legs in a burlap bag or burlap sap wrapped around his waist. And I look to where he points, and as I look over there, I see this big dirt pit, and my heart starts going up. I just got challenged to wrestling match. And in this year, I'm going, are you kidding me? Don't you dare. And in this year, I'm going, are you kidding me? If you don't, you'll never know. And so I started-- Before you go.

On with the story, the beginning of the book talks a lot about your rough and tumble upbringing and fighting and a lot of stuff that sort of came naturally to you.

I always felt like I had, look, I had two older brothers. I had to take care of myself. I had to defend myself. I learned to wrestle. I had pretty good leverage. I've always liked wrestling. But I don't know the rules of this game. I don't know if you can hit, bite, gouge. I don't know what's going on, but I'm getting up to engage in this and my heart's starting to race. And as I start to get up, the crowd gets up too, and they're getting excited. So I stand in front of Michelle, I point to his chest, point to my chest, and turn and walk towards the pit. Well, as soon as I made the turn to the pit, the crowd's like, Woo-hoo! The show is on tonight! Now I walk in the middle of the pit, next thing I know, the chief's out there, he's got a hand on top of my head, a hand on top of Michelle's. We're locked ear to ear. I've got a hold of his waist, he's got a hold of my waist. We're kind of like two bulls in the middle of this dirt pit. and the chief says, Dot, which I take to mean ding ding, which I was correct. Well, we go around, around, around. He flips me, I flip him. I can't get him pinned, he can't get me pinned. It goes on for what feels like about five minutes, but if you've ever been in a ring with somebody, it's probably more like two minutes, maybe 90 seconds, but it felt like forever. Anyway, all of a sudden, crowd's going crazy, chief separates us. I get up, I'm basically hyperventilating.

I'm dripping sweat.

I had had these talismans that were woven into my beard. Two of them are ripped out.

I've got pulled your beard off.

Rubbing down my chest. My knees are bleeding, my ankles are bleeding, and the crowd's going crazy. I look at Michelle and he's just standing there staring at me and he's.

Barely got a glaze of sweat on him.

And he's just, no blood either. No blood, no. And as I see this and he's upset that, oh, this wasn't over, I can tell. that he's like in the crowd.

Round two.

Well, now I see the chief go duh, which means ding ding for round two. Hands on waist, head, shoulders, ding ding, we're off again. Same thing goes on. He gets me in a massive leg lock where I almost lost my breath and blacked out. I slide out of that, get him in a Boston crab, flip over, I flip him over, he flips me, calls it. They call the round. I come up in a day seeing stars. the chief grabs both our hands, raises both to the sky, the crowd's going crazy, and I feel like I did pretty good. And as we look over to Michelle, he looks at me, slight bow, and he runs off. Now the crowd envelops me, dow-dow-dow-dow-dow-dow-dow-dow. And so I'm like, okay, man, I think I did all right. That was really fun. That hurt, but it was good. Anyway, that night, I go to bed. I think I just had the greatest day. Wow, I just.

Had a great day of getting beat up and It was bloody, I don't know. But it was, you know, it was invigorating.

It was alive. It was highly invigorating and it was out, I took a risk and it was a healthy risk. I mean, there was no gouging, there was no biting, there was no, you weren't trying to hurt the other one. And I'm glad that's how it went, 'cause that's a good wrestling match. Well, anyway, I go to bed that night, there's another funny story about what happens that night when I think maybe I'm in the cradle of truth, but find out that I was, I was probably thinking too highly of myself. The next day, I get up and the whole village is Dowda still, oh my gosh Dowda, they all walk me to the edge of the village to say goodbye to walk the 12 miles to the next village. And as I'm leaving the village, who's waiting for me on the path? Michelle. The guy I wrestled last night who ran off at the end of the match. As I approach him, he doesn't say a word. He looks me in the eye. As I walk to him, he turns, and as he turns, he grabs my hand. He holds my hand and walks me 14 miles to the next village. We get to that village without saying a word. He slightly bows, turns around and walks home. So I'm sitting there with Isa, my guide, that night, and I'm going like, Let's talk about last night, man.

Yeah.

I go, what went down? I mean, I think I did pretty good. You know, I grew up wrestling with my family and stuff. He goes, no, no, no, no, no. Dada, you do very, very good. Very, very good. I go, yeah? He goes, Yes. He says, Everybody think Michelle is going to have strong white man named Dada on his back in 10 seconds. And the thing is, Michelle not only champion of this village, he is champion of this village and tree village back. and I go, Aha! And he goes, Yes, Dowta, you come back. We make money. So I said to him, I was like, so what was it? And he goes like, why did I get all the adulation of the Dowta? He goes, you, were big man in the village as soon as you stand up and walk toward Pitt. Is that you accept the challenge? When you accept the challenge, Dowta, You are a big man in the village. It was a great lesson because that whole wrestling match wasn't about winning or losing. That whole wrestling match was that as a stranger, I accepted the challenge from the village champion. And there was a great lesson in that and I've tried to carry with me.

Which is take your risk, show up.

Take the risk, go find out. You know, I mean, we so, you know, Yeah, you would feel fear of failure. Yeah, I feared getting an arm broken.

For your life. You're in the middle of the jungle in Africa. But I measured it and I could.

Tell it wasn't, you know, Michelle, I'd been around the people enough to know that it wasn't like a venomous fight, like I want to hurt you. Again, I had to trust that it was gonna be a wrestling match and it wasn't about gouging or breaking someone's arm or killing somebody. I trusted that. I didn't know. But I had a pretty good sense that no, this is about the sport. Yeah.

So most people don't actually follow their dreams, I mean, at a sort of psychological level. You literally followed your dreams, your actual dreams.

Yeah, literally.

And that led to this experience. And how are you transformed as a result of that? What were the things that really you took home with you that have stayed with you to now?

That me, like most of us, talk too much.

So walk 14 miles with someone without saying a word and hold his hand.

You know, well, and also, I'm 22 days, they don't speak English. So the form of communication turns into charades, which can actually be quite relaxing. When you don't, it's quite frustrating early when you don't have the use of the of verbal language, but it becomes, I became a better communicator by showing and since then have taken done silent fast or gone saying, hey, Camille and I will go a week and we'll go no talking. And you start to notice how much you need words, but also how much you use too many words too often. I learned from that trip that satisfaction or happiness, joy, doesn't really, isn't as much about money as we think it is. I'm out there with those villagers and they have no electricity. They have a community. And you know what else I really noticed that I got from the trip in Africa and the trip to the Amazon? The importance of humor. Sense of humor. They have humor. Every day, they don't have a video game, they don't have a TV, they don't have electricity. Every day, it's like, make fun of the person who had the foible, you know, and make fun of them. That person doesn't like it, but they kind of like it that they're getting the attention of being made fun of. And that's the Night's Entertainment. And you laugh and you play games and you find rocks and you get creative. They're not bored. You plant today to eat tomorrow. They're not saving up. They don't have bank accounts, but boy, they have a smile, heart and community. And they have something to wake up and look forward to. And that's each other. And what's that crop gonna be doing today, tomorrow? And this, architecture, like life, is a verb. They live in places where the rains come and wipe out their entire community. And they don't go, oh, they go, This is part of it.

Let's rebuild.

It's that time of the season. Let us, architecture is a verb, life's a verb.

I'm wondering if it helped you focus on the things that matter most to you. What sort of impressed me through reading the book was that you were able to sort of sift through the things that really matter to you and prioritize those and go after those with the one pointed focus. And the story in the book where you were sort of taking a sabbatical from filmmaking, and it was very courageous to say, you're a highly successful actor, you're making tons of money, and you were doing roles that you didn't really feel fed your soul. I mean, they fed your bank account, not your soul. And you're like, I'm done with that. And I'm going to take the risk of hitting the pause button, and maybe my phone will never ring. But you did it, and what really struck me was that you made the choice to simplify and call in what you want. and you also sort of said in your book, which I thought was beautiful, was that the arrow doesn't seek the target. The target seeks the arrow, which sort of speaks to this idea. And you sort of shared a little bit about how when you sort of were getting back into things, you had, you know, this production company, you had a record company, you had a foundation, you had acting, you had your family, and then you just did something very courageous, which I find very challenging to do, which is to say no. You like basically like got a call on your phone from your production company, you're like, I don't want to do this anymore. This is not, it's too much. I want to simplify and be really good at the things that I'm good at and not get a B or a C. I want to get an A in the areas that matter the most to me.

Right?

And I think you said, I'm shutting down the production company, pay everybody good severance, shutting down the record company, and I'm going to focus on family. being the greatest actor I can be and serving in the world by giving back to kids. And it was just, you know, and I personally struggle because there's so much I want to do. There's so much that needs to be done in the world. There's so much that draws me in. You remind me of the elephant child, you know, with the insatiable curiosity. And I have that same, you know, pathology. And it can take you down a lot of rabbit holes, but you've managed to sort of go, wait a minute. I'm going to get really clear about my values, what I want. and how do you sort of get to that place? I mean, because it seems like you were very much all over the place. You were in a million different things. You were kind of renegade, you were acting out, you were doing all kinds of crazy, and somehow you kind of got, wait, wait a minute, I need a course correct here. Yep.

Well, and look, I'm going through a time right now, a challenge right now where I'm looking going, I've got 14 campfires here. You know what I mean? Which ones are feeding a singular vision that I'm going after? Let's get rid of the others so when I have fewer fires, they'll have higher flames. As you said, making A's instead of the B's are C's and too many. And I'm going through a wonderful challenging time right now dealing with that and trying to disseminate that. How and when? I mean, I would say, back to what we were talking about earlier, learned how to get selfish and, and, and, and, and say what, spend time quarreling over making up my mind about what really matters. Piggybacking on what that African trip and what the Peruvians and then the Amazon trip were, which lead to this clarity of when it's been there, when it has been there for me, and it hasn't always been there for me. is those trips reminded me of the impermanence of mortality, of these things that we want and need daily that give us, make us feel better, or we gain respect from, or adulation from. They're wonderful. I'm all for them. I'm not boo-hooing those at all. I am Rich and famous. I'm not boo-hooing that at all. I know, I won an Oscar, I have that trophy. I'm in great reverence of those things and highly respect those things. But I also realized that, well, that's not what it's about. That's a, you know, this little time that we're here on earth, as they're spinning and this little planet that's in this little galaxy, that's in this universe of many universes over the history of time, what's it all that matter? I mean, what's it really matter?

It does not.

So in that place, I felt like I've gone, I was like, oh, okay. So that's why it all matters. So let's define what really matters because these mortal things that we want, these mortal gains, these acquisitions, these things we can get, as helpful and tools they are and as awesome as they can be, that's, they're the friend, they're the tinsel on the Christmas tree. They're like, okay, cool. But that's not the big show.

Yeah, the big show.

What's gonna, what's gonna, what's gonna shine on after this life? What things can I build that are gonna be, can be handed down? What things can I build that I'm only coming on, stepping on the shoulders of giants that built before me? What's that lineage? What's the long, again, the long view?

So.

In those ways, when I'm in that frame of mind and spirit, I think we all are better equipped to look at things on our proverbial desk and go, well, does that really matter? Or is that just me in a capitalist society, the commerce world saying, oh, that's supposed to matter. And I need to really make that paramount. When you go, well, that's kind of just a tool for a larger machine in the big show. Yeah. So, well, let's get rid of that. And it's not a big deal if I don't get rid of it. And actually, I found by going, oh, I'll get rid of it. Now I've lowered it on my tier of priorities.

I got... More of it.

More of it.

Yeah, right.

It is no coincidence or accident that I became a better actor. after I became a father, and acting became number two, or number three in my priority list. I wanted it, but I knew I didn't need it for my existence and identity.

Yeah.

So, yeah. It's like, you know, a mate. Right. No, you find them, you gotta, if you need, if you need them so much, I mean, I've all been, I've been told no many times, 'cause I, I was too eager or needed it. No, kick back, sit back at yourself. Understand that you don't have to have that other thing for to survive, to have identity. And so then you end up getting the girl.

That's right.

You know what I mean?

You know, it's another thing that struck me about you, Matthew, as I was reading your book was sort of a question that came up for me. And it's reminded me of, you know, when I was 17, I was riding a train and I think in Italy and I was sitting next to this professor of English from Cambridge University and he said to me, Mark, he said, an unexamined life is not worth living, which I think he quoted from Shakespeare somewhere else. But he said, you need to write your life. And so I was 17, I started writing a journal. And like you, I've been keeping a journal for decades. And the question I have for you is, did that introspection and exploration of your own mind help you become who you were. Like in other words, without that, it was at the tool because it's not just, oh, I'm just writing my story. You're literally using it as a spiritual tool to wake up and notice your mind and notice what's going on in your life and to think about it differently and ask questions. And, you know, most of us just go through and we're on our devices and we're distracted and we're not present. And when you sit and you write, you literally call in your. Your higher self. You're like, hey, what do you think up there? As opposed to your lower self, which is constantly operating in a monkey, you know, reactive way.

And. And look, and I'm. I think I'm very good at. At. At. At. At reacting in the base yourself, too. There's times where I'm like, I'm not open for Enlightenment right now. I gotta put my head down, take a sweat, and just try to get this thing done. I know I'm running on Reserve.

I'll be.

I'll be there in a minute. You know, I'll be back in a minute. I mean, let me finish this thing. But I think I'm able maybe to, I think we all are able to go do that, sort of spend that time in our base ourselves doing that manual labor if we prepared the temple well enough to that transcendent self where we've taken some stock, knowing ourselves, examining ourselves. I mean, Who's more fun or more entertaining or more necessary to get to know than ourselves? The one person we're stuck with. The one person we can't get rid of, even though, damn it, I'm sick of your company. And I get sick of my company a lot. I'm like, well, let's work it out then. Let's have our own wrestling match. You're the one son of a bitch I can't get rid of. So, I mean, that, that, that, that, you know, that place of, and again, to everyone out there that thinks it's laborious, it doesn't have to be laborious. I mean, look, everyone's got mobile devices now. Just go into Notes, and if you got something that you walk through the day and you giggle, no, you will forget it. Or it will be stripped away, you know? So, I mean, You'll start to find a little lineage of poetry or you'll find things where you go like, wow, I think that's right. I laughed at that time, at that line in that movie that I thought was the funniest line when nobody else in the entire theater laughed. But you know what? The one where everybody laughed is the one I didn't think was that funny. Now does that make me odd? Well, maybe, but dive into those places where you're the individual. Dive into those places where you know, many times I've written, why do I cry so much at birth but not so much at death? Yeah. Why am I the one weeping over here at the birth or someone getting let out of prison because they were wrongly convicted? That's the stuff that makes me just bawl.

But death.

I don't really cry. I'm like, I haven't found out, I can mourn, but so little things where you find your specific and it's not a wrong or right thing. And the Don't judge yourself on it. I guess what I'm saying is if you write things down, it's awareness. And the simple act of writing something down, which you know, lets us become slightly objective. And we have the subjective and we have the objective. It just puts us on the jumbotron for a second. We have a little looksie at ourselves going, how are we doing there? And it's a good view for awareness. It's why I'm a proponent of people speaking in the third person. It's a form of awareness. We call it arrogance, but it's actually going, no, I'm having a little look back. you know, tell you what's in the future, Mike Tyson. Well, you know, it's just Mike Tyson. Why is he doing that? It's a little pop out, you know, it's a little projection. We have to look back down at ourselves. Now, I would say this, I'd love to hear your opinion on this. Sometimes today with all of our devices in the world that is a mirror, we have to fight against being objective too often, meaning we're living in the third person. more than ever before. And the third person should never be ahead of or spent more to going, no, I'm having a little look back, you know, tell you what to the future, like Tyson. Well, anytime on then the first person.

Yeah.

The second one.

When I think of the third person, perhaps I'm thinking of like maybe a fourth person, which is, you know, your, your higher Consciousness, like your higher witness and self. It's kind of knows that's connected. spirit or God or your soul or whatever you want to call it.

Jiminy Cricket.

Jiminy Cricket. And most of us are too in the doing and not enough in the being to actually listen to that quiet, still voice. And you talk about it in the book and we don't have time to go through on the podcast, I wanted to read it, but you have this beautiful passage of why we all need a walkabout. And walkabouts, for those who don't know, are these journeys, spiritual journeys and quests that the aboriginals in Australia will do. But it's something that came up in your book multiple times where these times of retreat, going to a monastery, going on a walkabout, going to Australia and putting yourself in a tough, difficult situation away from everything you know and love, as a way to kind of meet yourself, as a way to pull away all the distractions, all the noise, all the things that take us out of being who we are and who we want to be. Hugh Matthew McConaughey is not who Mark Hyman is or who Joe Smith is or Sally Jones is. They're all their own amazing human beings, but in order for each of us to find that out, we need to pause and hit that pause button. You know, I just recorded a podcast about Ram Dass who used to live in Maui. And he has this whole theme of becoming nobody. We spend our whole lives becoming somebody, but we also need to sort of drop all that somebody we are in order to get to nobody so we can actually have an authentic relationship with like what is.

And I think- the anonymous soul is the healthy soul. Yeah.

That's such a beautiful thing that you've sort of laid out for us in this book. I could talk to you for hours, Matthew. So Matthew, you've created a great gift for us with this book, Green Lights. I really think it's an inspiration not just to learn about you and your life, but it's sort of like an example of an owner's manual for how to live an authentic life. and all of us want to do that more and all of us need that more, especially in this time of COVID where we're all disrupted and we have to reevaluate everything we're doing. And it might just be time I encourage people to sit down and pick up a pen or maybe on your iPad or phone, just write, you know, and that's simple. Yeah, write anything. It could be listen, you know, listen and if the same stupid over and over, that's fine. But it's, it's really important to take those times and to take the pauses and take the breaks. And I come to Maui for the winter to do a little bit of Becoming Nobody and to take a pause and to sort of, you know, and life gives us these moments, you know, and they're different for everybody. But I'm so grateful that you wrote this book. I'm really inspired by it. Everybody's got to get a copy, wherever you get your books. Matthew, thank you for what you do and who you are and the example you show us all and your bright, authentic, fun and joyous spirit.

Mark, great talking to you. Enjoy getting to know you better here today.

All right, buddy. We'll see you soon. And thank you all for listening to Doctor's Pharmacy. If you love this podcast, please share with your friends and family on social media. Leave a comment. We'd love to hear from you. How do you connect with your authentic soul and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. And we'll see you next time on the Doctor's Pharmacy.