Why You Feel LOST, LAZY & UNMOTIVATED In Life! (Change Everything) | Simon Sinek

All that purpose means is that you have a clear value in the world and the love that people have for you, the reason why they love you is because they want this thing in their life.

In the longevity science, that if you have meaning and purpose, if you have a why, that you live seven years longer.

You sort of said it.

Yeah, I said it.

It gives the things we do meaning. It's like, if we don't have a sense of purpose, then you're doing the thing you're doing just for the sake of doing it.

Right?

Like, I'm making money just for the sake of money. I'm turning this wrench just for the sake of turning this wrench. And when we do things that contribute to something else, contribute to something bigger, it gives our lives and our work meaning. And when we have a sense of meaning, when we have a sense of purpose, it does many, many things to us. It builds our self-confidence. It makes us better decision makers. It makes us better in relationships. And at the end of the day, it makes us enjoy our lives and find fulfillment in our work. And I think so often, and I think a lot of people don't think about it this way. They don't think about what's the purpose of all of this. What's the reason I'm doing all of this? We usually default to, I gotta pay my bills. That's a function, because I was told to do it, because everybody has to work. or because I'm just trying to, I want to make this company the biggest or the best, to what end, to what value. And so to truly understand purpose, I think, like I said, it sort of just has positive effects all over the place.

Yeah, so often people are trying to find their why. I mean, I think you're lucky, I'm lucky, maybe we're not lucky, maybe we figured out how to do this, but somehow something captured us in a moment of our lives where we went, oh, aha, this is my life's work. This is what brings me meaning. This is what I want to focus on. This is my contribution. A lot of people are kind of floating around trying to find their why and not knowing where to start or how to do it. So how do you teach people who aren't inspired or aren't fulfilled in their work or in their lives to create a sense of meaning and purpose and why?

Just to go back to something you said a moment ago, which is you said we're lucky, right? We're lucky that we have it. And this is the problem. Which is we treat purpose or fulfillment like a lottery. You go out for dinner with a bunch of friends and somebody says, I love my work or I have a sense of purpose. Everybody goes, oh, my God, you are so lucky. You won something, right?

Yeah, exactly.

I believe having clarity of purpose is a right. It is not a privilege. It is a right that we all have the opportunity to know what our why is, to live with purpose. And it's though some of us find it through extreme pain or hardship, where you come through it and you're like, I don't want to ever go through that again, but nor do I want anybody else to go through that again either. People who tried to take their own lives, they didn't, they devote their lives to helping others. with depression, for example, that gives them purpose. But it was the hardship that ignited it. But all that purpose means is that you have a clear value in the world and the love that people have for you, the reason why they love you is because they want this thing in their life. There's many ways to find your why. I wrote a book called Find youd why that you can, we have a course on our website, but I'll tell you, How to do it? I'll tell you a really simple way that gets you really in the ballpark. Go to a friend you love, the kind of friend who you know that they would be there for you no matter what. You could call them at three o'clock in the morning, you're confident they would take the call, or that you would take their call at three in the morning. Do not do this exercise with a sibling. Do not do this with a spouse. Do not do this with a parent.

Right?

Those relationships are too close. Do it with a best friend, a very close friend. And ask them the simple question, why are we friends? And they're going to look at you like you're insane. Because the part of the brain that controls feelings, like love and loyalty, our limbic brain, doesn't control language. That's our neocortex, which is why it's hard to put our feelings into words. It's why we speak in metaphors and analogies all the time. So they won't know. They'll say, I don't know why are you asking me this? And again, it's not that they don't know, it's just they don't have the capacity for the language. So you actually change the question. This is the important thing about this exercise. You actually stop asking the question why? And you ask the question what? So you can engage the rational brain. Come on, you say. What specifically is it about me that I know that you would be there for me no matter what? And they'll struggle and they'll hem and they'll haw and they'll start to describe you. They'll say, I don't know. You've always been there for me. You're funny, you're smart, and you have to play devil's advocate. You say, Good, that's the definition of a friend. You have that with lots of people. What specifically is it about me that I'd know you'd be there for me no matter what? And you're going to go through multiple rounds of this. You're going to continue to play devil's advocate. Don't help them. Don't let anybody else help them. You have to let them go through the horrible stress And eventually they'll give up. And eventually they'll give up and they'll stop describing you and they'll start describing themselves. My friend said to me, Simon, I don't know. All I know is I can sit in a room with you. I don't even have to talk to you and I feel inspired. And I got goosebumps. In fact, I'm getting them right now. Because what they did is they articulated the value, the specific value, that I have in their life. That specific value is my why. It's the thing that I give to the world. And when I talk to multiple friends, they gave me sometimes similar, if not the exact same answer, because the thing that I give to the world is the thing they want in their life. That's your why.

That's quite amazing. So start with finding a friend, not a spouse or a family member. And that's a great exercise. And I think most of us don't actually get the chance to see ourselves through each other's eyes or to have these kinds of deep conversations and we kind of skip over them. But actually that's where all the juicy stuff is, you know, when you get way below the surface of a relationship. So that's powerful. You also talk about this idea of why being a biological phenomenon. What do you mean by that?

So, I mean, you'll appreciate this is like brain science 101.

Right?

As a doctor, I'm really interested in.

The biology of why. Right?

Right. So, I mean, it's like the most non-controversial science, right? Which is, it's the way the brain evolved. It's the reptilian brain, it's the mammalian brain, it's the Homo sapiens brain, right? There's limbic and there's neocortex. Limbic brain is responsible, as we said, for all of our feelings. It's responsible for decision making. Right. But it has no capacity for language. Our neocortex, our very new Homo sapiens brain is all the language centers, but it's also responsible for rational and analytical thought. And so we like to think that we're rational animals, but we're not. We're very emotionally driven. And so when we attempt to describe ourselves and describe our value, we're very neocortical, we're very rational. This is the value that I offer. I'm smart, I went to Harvard, I do blah, blah, blah. Look at all my degrees. This is why you have to trust me, right?

It's very rational.

It's an equation. But that's not actually how we're wired. And so what the why does is it taps into that limbic brain. It taps into that sort of emotional center that not only makes me feel like this is who I am, but it also is what creates those feelings with our friends. And then the rational stuff is what we use to describe and to prove it. And so I overlaid this map of the very basics of biology of human decision making and just started to overlay it on corporate cultures. And it turns out it works the exact same way over a group of people as it does for an individual, in other words, a company. And so you find that organizations with a sense of cause, with a sense of why, with a sense of purpose, those leaders think, act and communicate by talking about the why, which inspires people to want to work for them and work harder, to want to buy from them and go out of their way to choose you over another product. And then we can prove, we rationalize that behavior by looking at all of the rational stuff. Look, it's a better product, higher quality, all this stuff. But it's actually a very, very emotional decision.

Yeah, I thought of Patagonia, which is quite a company that created great products and you've recycled plastics and really shared a lot of values that I share. But you felt you were buying into something that was making the world a better place, where they gave a percentage of their profits to the environment. Now, he's given away all his billions of dollars to help the environment, which is really remarkable. And I think those kinds of purpose-driven companies do really well. And those who are just seeking profit can make it for a while, but they always will be undermined by The people realizing that there's a disconnect between their values and what these companies are doing. And I think as individuals, the biology of why is so important. And I think, I'm trying to think about the biological mechanisms as a doctor of what happens when you feel connected to your purpose. And I think it's transmuted through your hormones and your neurotransmitters and your immune system and even your microbiome. All these things are listening to your thoughts. and your thoughts create your biology. Carolyn talks about how your biography creates your biology. And it's a very powerful framework for understanding that we have to master our minds. We talked about eating better and exercising and sleep, but even like stress reduction and so forth. But we rarely talk about how do we become masters of our own minds, which usually take us on these horrible rides for most of our life. And it's why we have such challenging relationships, why we have challenging in life and finding work that's satisfying and purpose. So really understanding that you really have to focus and work on mastering your mind. And I think finding your why is a key part of that. You know, I found my why by getting really sick. I was a doctor and I had very similar values, but I got very sick from mercury poisoning when I was 36. and ended up with severe chronic fatigue syndrome and a whole host of symptoms. And through having to heal myself and discover this new model of medicine, I was able to get inspired to realize that there was this hidden gem in science that taught us how to take care of our bodies differently in a way that could solve so much suffering. And I ended my suffering and I wanted to do that for everybody else. So this has been my life purpose and my why. I'm curious about what your story was that led to the discovery of your why.

Also pain. It wasn't- Pain and suffering.

It's a great doorway to why.

I mean, suffering is a great doorway, yeah. I mean, I was living what many considered to be the American dream. I started my own small business, a little marketing consultancy. We had amazing clients. We did great work. I was making an okay living. And after four years of doing that, I fell out of love. And I didn't want to get out of bed and go to work anymore. And I was deeply embarrassed by that because superficially everything looked good. And I didn't want to be like, yeah, but I don't want to go to work today, you know? And so I kept that feeling to myself. and all of my energy went into pretending that I was happier, more successful and more in control than I really felt. And when you do that, it eats you alive. It starts to actually get worse. And so what ended up happening was depression, paranoia. I was convinced I was going to go bankrupt. I was convinced I was going to get evicted.

And.

I shared it with nobody. So then you add loneliness and became antisocial, and it all sort of becomes this vicious cycle. And it wasn't until a very close friend of mine interrupted that and she said, Something's wrong. I'm worried about you. Something's different. And in that safe space, I came clean and told her everything I was going through. and it took this huge weight off my shoulders. And so all of the energy that was going into lying, hiding and faking every day, I redirected into finding a solution. And the solution that I found was this magical pattern that we all know what we do, the products we sell, the services we offer. Some of us know how we do those things, the things that we think distinguish us from everybody else. But very few of us can clearly articulate why we do what we do. And I knew what we did, and I knew how we did it, but I couldn't tell you why I was doing it. And I realized that was passing peace. And when I found my why, it not only restored my passion to levels I'd never experienced before, but more importantly, I would help my friends find their why. Because that's what we do for the people we love, right? You read a great book, you tell your friends to read this book, you see a good movie, you tell your friends to see this movie. Why? Because you just want them to share the same joy that you had. Same thing, same mentality. I wanted my friends to do this. And they were so inspired by it and they were making crazy life decisions, like taking much bigger risks with more confidence. They invited me to their homes to share it with their friends and I literally would stand in someone's living room and talk about this thing called the why and help people find their why for about 100 bucks on the side. And it was an organic thing. And the more people invited me to talk about it, the more I just kept saying yes. And I didn't even know public speaking was a thing. I thought you had to like clown, clown, I thought you had to climb Mount Everest or row across the Pacific Ocean to get invited to be like, give a speech. I didn't know that that was a thing. I didn't even know that was a job.

A job, right?

But when they started offering me to pay me to come and speak, I realized I didn't have to do the marketing thing anymore. I wanted to do this. I found something that I would do for free, but the fact that they could pay me and I could pay my bills by doing it, It was an easy choice. And the most important thing was that it was an act of service. It was for others. And it wasn't a pursuit to build a business. It wasn't a pursuit to do anything, but to see those around me get the same feeling of joy that I had. Because I believe, as I said before, that fulfillment in our work and joy in our lives is a right, not a privilege. that we're all.

Yeah, I mean, it's hard for people who are in jobs they don't like, who haven't found their purpose, who are working for money and just to survive to kind of figure that out and get out of that. I think if you follow the passion of your life and you can figure out how to do what you would do anyway without being paid, that's the holy grail, right?

Yes and no is the answer to that question, which is I think when we do that, when we have that question if I could just find the thing that I would do for free, you know, the thing that's passionate. I think what ended up, we start looking for the job superficially, which is like a college student trying to decide what I want to do when I graduate, right? Yeah. Which is, it's very superficial. And that's the problem, which is you can actually find joy in any job, you know? And I remember when I first started this work, a friend of mine said to me, yeah, but your work is, you know, it's fine for people in like fancy jobs, but like, a plumber or a janitor is never going to get what you want. And they're completely missing the point, which is it's not the work. It's how you view the value of the work and service to others. Goes back to the conversation we had about how to find your why, which is what value do I feel in your life? I can show you many janitors in schools who love their jobs because they realize what they're doing is creating a space for the kids. you know, that they're there for the kids or a postal worker who knows that they're bringing little bits of joy to people, you know, every day. And like, what gives a job purpose is not the actual function of the job. It's not that the work, it's who we're doing the work for. It's that we've to re-articulate your work as an act of service. That's where the joy comes from.

That's where the person- that's really true. And you can do that in whatever you're doing. Like a plumber gets to give someone a hot shower.

Or it could be customer service, right? Which is I'm a plumber because that's, my dad was a plumber, my grandfather was a plumber, I'm a plumber, right? I'm a plumber by default. But I know that when people call me, something's usually gone wrong. And so, or I'm fixing something or they're excited about a new home. You know, and I come in and I, all I want to do is bring joy into the people's lives who I meet.

Yeah.

Has nothing to do with the plumbing, it has to do with the interaction I have when I come into someone's home. Because a plumber has to come into your home.

Right?

And so, and so it doesn't matter if it's even the purpose of the work. It's just how I view my interaction and my service to people.

Yeah, it's more of the quality of the experience that you have within whatever you're doing. It doesn't matter what it is, right?

It's like purpose.

It's sort of like the Zen saying, which is before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. The only difference is how you do it and what your inner experience is around it. That's the profound difference in the awakening. I remember I chow a lot and used to dress in fancy clothes to go to Cleveland Clinic and have to wear nice shoes. I would get my shoes shined at the airport. I basically had this older Rastafarian guy shine my shoes and he was so much fun and he brought so much joy to me. And he just was so happy and so lit up. And I mean, his job was shining shoes in an airport, which, you know, it's not the best job for most people's imagination, but he gave me so much joy that I literally gave him $100 tip because I was like, this is priceless. And he was just so happy. We had the most celebratory time together. And it doesn't have to be some grand sort of act of anything. It's like Mother Teresa said, there are no great acts of love. They're only small acts done with great love. And I think that's a really important framework. I love your framework of the mindset of how do we show up and bring joy to those around us? And how do we do that in ourselves, but how do we also spread that? And I think in your website, simonsinek.com, you have it starts with the sort of the optimism company, which I love. And you talk about how there's an entire section in the bookshop called Self-Help, but there's another section called Help Others. And that you're helping to build the Help Others industry, starting with optimism, which is such a beautiful framework to think about. How do we start to increase the quality of all of our relationships, all of our interactions, and the power of community? And, you know, I've done a lot of work around the power of community as medicine. Yes, food is medicine, but so is community and so is love. And so how do we bring the quality of those relationships up a level? How do we get out of our own kind of self-absorbed framework and understand that through service and altruism that we actually can build not only a better world, but a happier world for ourselves. And you might not know this data, but altruism service activates the same pathways in the brain, the dopamine receptors, that are impacted by heroin or cocaine or other addictive substances. And so in a way, we're hardwired for service to create pleasure. I personally had this experience when I went to Haiti after the earthquake. It was the most devastating scene you could ever imagine. 300,000 dead, 300,000 severely wounded. The 82nd Airborne came in and were like, We've never seen anything like this. Iraq, Iran, whatever, war, nothing. And it was really horrible. And I worked 20 hours a day. barely had anything to eat or drink. And I was serving others and not thinking about myself at all, trying to just get medicines and bring people in or from surgery centers. And I was just like nonstop in service mode. And I hate to say this, but it was like one of the most joyful, happy times of my life. It sounds weird. How could I be happy in a disaster zone? But it's like when I'm seeing a patient or when I'm not in my head about something, I'm just in this act of service. It's just such a different way of experiencing life.

We hear this with those who've served in combat, which is nobody likes combat. You know, it's like your life's at risk. But you talk to combat veterans and they have a warm feeling about their combat experiences. And it's not the combat or being in a war zone, it's the community, it's the intense love and serving your fellow soldier, marine, airman, sailor, it's serving the comrades around you and the love you have for each other. You may not like each other, but you love each other. It's like sibling relationships. You would sacrifice your life for them because you know that they would sacrifice their life for you. You do courageous things because you know that they would be the same do the same for you. And it's the community that gives them that intense warmth and that intense feeling. And you know this. One of the things that produces oxytocin in our bodies, which is the chemical that makes us feel love and all the unicorns and rainbows, all the mushy mushy stuff. One of the things that produces oxytocin is shared hardship. That when you go through difficult things with someone, like families that suffer tragedy, come out closer when they get through it. You know, communities that suffer a hurricane, they don't care about their politics anymore. They're helping each other. And they come out as friends. And I think, you know, we in the United States especially, we've over indexed on rugged individualism, where, you know, Marlon Brando imagery and like all of our incentive structures in our companies are almost completely individual performances. you're performance, you get promotion, you get bonus. We don't incentivize the behavior of helping each other at all. And so you get the behavior you reward. And so it's no wonder why we're all sort of these selfish, you know, career driven animals in the United States. And then you look at how we attempt to find solace for the discomfort that that creates, which is we've made selfish pursuit out of out of things like yoga and meditation, right? I was at this meeting, I attended this meeting, there's a whole group of us sitting around a table, and I was sitting next to a woman who apparently, apparently she's a big timey yoga instructor, and under the table I could see she was on her phone. And it's not like she was staying in touch with her family because she has somebody sick and in hospital. I looked over, she was on social media, I could see. And at one point at the table, the conversation turned to being present and the importance of being present. And her head popped up from her looking down at her phone and she said, that's why I love yoga, because it helps me be present. And I thought to myself, you,'re an idiot, right? What she had done is she had made yoga this selfish pursuit. And if you think about something like meditation, right? The practice of meditation is you sit by yourself and you learn to focus on one thing, whether it is a mantra or a breath, it does not matter. You learn to focus on one thing and put all the other thoughts out of your head. And if you have a thought, you label it a thought, you move it aside and say, I will deal with that later so you can stay focused. And what you end up with is intense calm and beauty and presence. And we know all the medical benefits of mindfulness and meditation. We know the medical benefits of meditation to the self. But then there is another reason we do meditation, which is its practice to serve another. So when we have a friend who is telling us about a hard day that they are having or a struggle they are having in a relationship, that we are capable of focusing on what they are telling us and only what they are telling us. Or even if they are having a good day and they want to report out to us, that we are entirely focused on what they are saying and nothing else. A crash behind us, we don't turn around because we're so focused on what they're saying. And if we have a thought, we label it a thought, we put it out of our minds. And we are not present until someone else says we are. When they say to us, Thank you for listening. When they say to us, I feel heard. And now what we're doing is building community. Yes, yes, absolutely. Meditation for ourself has application and value. But it also has to be applied to those we care about and those we love. That is the purpose. And this is where Maslov, Maslov's hierarchy of needs, Maslov got it wrong. Maslov made a horrible mistake, right? Because he said the most basic need for human beings is food and shelter. The third thing he said was community, relationships. And I mean, I for one have never heard of anyone dying by suicide because they were hungry, but I've heard of people dying by suicide because they were lonely, which means food can't be the most important thing. Also, you can get to the tip of this metaphorical pyramid of called self-actualization, which how pompous is that? I'm sitting at the tip of the pyramid, self-actualized, looking down at all of you unactualized people, right? And where he made the mistake is he only thought about it as individuals. And the reality is there's a paradox of being human, which is every moment at every day, we are both individuals and members of groups. And this causes stress, right? Do I put myself first, do I put the group first? And it's a paradox. It's both. And we have to deal with that. And so Maslow was only thinking of us as individuals. I think if we think of ourselves as groups, number one is relationship, and the top is shared actualization. How do we get the group to feel actualized? And you talk about this in the Blue Zones, which is it's not just about me, it's about us. Yeah.

And unfortunately we missed that skills.

We don't have those skills of how to create shared actualization. No, and it's sort of ancient, right?

I mean, you think of Buddhist teachings, it sort of reminds me that I studied Buddhism and they have the three pillars of awakening, which is the Dharma, or the Buddha, which is the inspiration for the possibility of waking up, the Dharma, which is the teachings of how to, and the Sangha, which is the community you need to actually do that. And, you know, E.O. Wilson wrote this extraordinary book called the Social Conquest of the Earth about how throughout all of biology, from ants to humans, we have to collaborate, work together to survive. I mean, if you stuck a human in the forest by himself or herself or in the desert, I mean, they're not going to survive very long. but we need each other. And it's just built into our entire evolutionary history. And you know, we create a society of such individualism, particularly in America, where we've kind of divorced ourselves from even understanding the need to build community and neighbor. I mean, I remember growing up in suburbs in Toronto, and I don't even remember my neighbors. I mean, they just don't. And these are people who live a few feet away from me. and aren't part of our community. So I think we are really in a moment of crisis where we have to start to rebuild the sense of community and connection and belonging. And I think that is the medicine we're missing. And I think the divisiveness, the separation, disconnection, the hostility in the world now is really disheartening. And I think it's driven by focusing on our differences rather than our similarities. We're far more similar than we are separate. And I've traveled so many countries all over the world, and humans are humans. When you get down to it, they care about their family, they care about you know, just the simplest things that matter. And, you know, the Bodhisattva concept is essentially this idea in Buddhism that, you know, you reach the gates of enlightenment, but then you turn back to help relieve the suffering of all other beings. And I think it's a beautiful framework for, so yes, we, you know, we need to take care of ourselves. Self-care is important, but at what point do you start to sort of turn back toward the world? And how do you take care of yourself so you can actually be more present and show up for everything and everyone in your life. And I think that's just such a foreign concept to most people right now.

And we make it a hierarchy, right? We make it a hierarchy, which is you hear people say things like, well, you have to put on your own oxygen mask before you can help the person next to you. That's why you have to put yourself first. I'm like, yeah, but that's a crashing plane. That's a plane that has no air in it. that's why you have to do that, otherwise you'll pass out. That's not like normal life. I think it's a flawed analogy because what if you spend your whole life putting your oxygen mask on, you'll never have time for anybody else. And the point is it's not one or it's one and, and it's imperfect. Being a human being is messy. And sometimes I do accidentally over index on helping others to the point of self harm. And sometimes I do actually sometimes over index on being a little bit selfish, at the point of like hurting the team or hurting the family. We make mistakes and it's the constant attempt to find that equilibrium in finding balance, which by the way, you'll never find, but that is the life's pursuit. You never want it to swing one way or the other too far. It's that balance of... But the problem is we in our American society have completely whacked it over to selfish and we forgot the selfless. And it goes back to the biology. I mean, this is what I love about the intersection of my work and your work, which is functional medicine is if you just treat the body the way it was intended, it kind of just does it. It fixes itself automatically. And my work is the same, and there's a biological component, an anthropological component, which is we're made to look after each other, which is why we get oxytocin when we perform an act of generosity. and it feels good when somebody does something nice for us, and it feels good when we do something for someone else, and witnessing or hearing a story of generosity releases oxytocin. And the more oxytocin we have in our bodies, the more generous we become because it's the human body's desperate attempt to get us to look after each other, and oxytocin boosts our immune systems and makes us live longer. So being generous being socially oriented is actually what helps keep your body healthy. The opposite, and again, you know the biology way better than I do, the opposite is cortisol, which is this unhealthy stress. Testosterone and excessive testosterone turns off our immune systems or it's an oxytocin inhibitor. So when you have these incredibly unhealthy cultures like a bank, like an investment bank where there's all this machismo and banker bros, combined with a flawed incentive structure that promotes individualism and lots of stress that you could get fired on any day, this toxic mix of cortisol and testosterone literally shuts off empathy. And so I love it when people say of these guys, how can you sleep at night? I'm like, they sleep fine, they have no empathy.

But let's talk about empathy.

They're lonelier and won't live as long because that's a toxic mix inside our bodies.

Yeah, I mean there are ornery people who live a long time, which I don't understand. I think those are outliers. You know, Simon, you talk a lot about empathy and the importance of empathy and why it's necessary for success in both life and business. You talk about curiosity and how empathy is really, has to include curiosity as.

Part of its- Can I interrupt real quick?

Sort of way of navigating.

Yeah. I just thought of a great story of a really grumpy guy who was doing great. And we did a little exercise and we discovered why things were good even though he was grumpy. Yeah.

Oh, okay.

It just occurred to me as you're talking about it.

Go ahead.

Sorry, I want to get back to the empathy, but this is great. I think this might shed some light as to the grumpy people that live a long time. So I was doing a thing with Disney, with the Imagineers. And I was talking to them about purpose and why.

And.

I was gonna do a demonstration on how to help somebody find their why, and I was gonna do it in the room. And so I picked a random guy who had lots of gray hairs. I knew he was seasoned. I picked a random guy to do the exercise with in front of the room. What I didn't know is the guy that I chose, his nickname in the company is Ice Chips, because he's a cold bastard.

Oh, geez.

And I don't think he knew his own nickname, by the way. I was told this afterwards, like, Simon, you don't know who you picked. You picked a guy that people struggle to work for, right? Because he's so hard on people. And I started going through this exercise of asking him these questions, about the times at Disney, he was in love, that his work felt like it had meaning. He told this incredible story of how after he oversees the building of a ride, that he will always go for the opening days to see the people join the ride. One day was the opening day of a new ride, and he saw a father pushing his kid who was in a wheelchair.

Right? And.

I know Disney is so well equipped for people in wheelchairs. And he was just watching them get on, and he said, Everywhere in the world, everywhere you go in the world, people will see a guy and a kid in a wheelchair, right? Everywhere in the world. He says, Only at Disneyland do we just see A father and their kid going to Disney. It chokes me up. They do not see the wheelchair, they just see the relationship. And he was cracking up. He was choking up. And we were all crying in the room. The whole room was crying. And in that instant, we realized why he was so hard on people. Because those to him were the stakes. It mattered to him that much that they are that perfect all the time. And so, what he failed to do is communicate the purpose. And that's why people swim is hard. In that instant, everybody who worked for him was proud to work for him. And in that instant, everybody wanted to work for him and be pushed that hard. Yeah.

So his excellence and his drive for excellence was driven by his love.

It had to be driven by love.

Exactly. It was really a little bit hidden. It was clearly driven by love. That's so beautiful. And I think a lot of us, I think, struggle with empathy. I think we're particularly in this culture today, we're so focused on ourselves and social media has just amplified that. We just all of us are struggling to make sense of the world in a very complicated environment of stresses that are just hard to sort through war and climate change and natural disasters and increasing political divisiveness and just stuff that's just so uncomfortable to live in. And yet the solution is very available to us as we begin to sit and connect and understand and have empathy with other people. I think I remember the show that I forget the name of it was incredible like mentalist. And essentially he took a guy who was a really a devout racist and he slowly acculturated him to, I think he was in Texas or something to, he hated, you know, Hispanic people and Mexicans and, you know, just fully on racist. And over time he got him to, you know, have a relationship and to connect with and to listen to. And eventually this guy took, literally took a bullet for a Mexican guy. And it was all set up and it was fake. He didn't actually take a bullet, but he literally didn't know he wasn't going to take an actual bullet. And so when I hear these stories, I think, wow, you know, all of us have that capacity, no matter how hard we are or disconnected we are, how much we believe the other is the enemy, that we all have the capacity to reach out in a way to build connection, relationship and understanding. And so in your work, you teach people how to do that. You teach people how to access empathy. You teach people the importance of curiosity and how being curious about someone or curious about their lives or curious about who they are, about asking questions, It's such a powerful trick. I mean, if you go to a dinner party and all you do is talk about yourself, you think maybe you're interesting or whatever, it's like whatever, people might learn some things. But if you ask questions, if you inquire about what people care about and you ask not superficial questions like, how's your day or where do you live or what do you do for work, but really deep questions, people actually love it. And it just builds this deeper sense of connection and relationship. And I think that's actually how our relationship started. I was going through a moment in my life and I just kind of said what was in my heart and we talked and had these really honest conversations. And it got very real, very fast and all of a sudden you build this deep intimacy and connection with somebody and it's all what we're looking for. But most people don't have the tools or understanding of how to do that. So how do you teach people how to do that? How do you share some of the tools, techniques for how we strengthen that in ourselves?

Yeah, those are called human skills and we don't teach human skills. And I despise the term soft skills. I wish we would stop using the term soft skills. There's nothing soft about them. And hard and soft are opposites. And I would hate to think that we're teaching people opposite things. Hard skills are the skills we need to teach you to do your job. And human skills are the skills we need to teach you to be a better human. And I want you to have both. I want you to be an expert in the work you do and I want you to be an expert in being a human. Right? I'm going to help you. And we don't teach human skills in colleges and high schools, and we definitely can do a lot better job of teaching human skills in our companies. Examples of human skills are things like how to have a difficult conversation, how to listen, active listening, how to have empathy, how to give and receive feedback, how to have an effective confrontation. Sometimes we got to get into the tension, but we don't know how to do it, so it usually blows up in our face. Or how to have a difficult conversation. After the murder of George Floyd, I saw it all over the place. I saw a lot of leaders who, after George Floyd was murdered, did nothing. They didn't have a conversation with their teams at all because they were so afraid of saying the wrong thing, accidentally triggering somebody or inflaming the situation that they opted for nothing. We can teach people how to have difficult conversations. Part of one of those human skills that we can do a better job of teaching and learning is how to replace judgment with curiosity. And you gave the example of that experiment. I am a huge devotee of the work of Deeyah Khan. Deeyah is a filmmaker, a documentary filmmaker, Muslim woman living in the UK. And she made some public comments about diverse societies and it gained the attention of the white supremacist movement. And they started trolling her to the point where the police advised her to stay away from open windows. And the way she responded was to move to America and get to know white supremacists. And what she offered them was a safe space to feel heard. Now, this sounds apparent to most people. Like, they should be the ones listening to us, except they won't.

Yeah. Right? Yeah.

They're never gonna do it. So what she did is she gave them a safe space to feel heard. She didn't agree with them, she didn't affirm them. She gave them a safe space to empty their bucket, as Dia calls it. And what started to happen is they started to feel trust to her. They started to view her as a friend. And they could no longer reconcile their racist views with the fact that they viewed this Muslim woman as a friend. And one by one, they started dropping out of the white supremacist movement. Yeah. And that's what you're talking about. Which is, and leadership very much is the willingness to go first.

Right?

Even though the other person, quote unquote, should go first, doesn't matter. The leader is the one who leads the way, literally. And most of us lack the skills to even know how to do that. The other person will say something so triggering to us, we'll start fighting with them or trying to talk them down. And to watch Dia, you can see her documentary, it's called White Right Meeting the Enemy. Her capacity for extreme listening is astonishing. If we don't have to have conversations with white supremacists, we just have to have conversations with our bosses and our friends and our colleagues.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

-You know, or that... -Because after the elections, we have this... What do I say to my uncle who we have political disagreements with at Thanksgiving? And so, most families opt for not having the conversation. Why not opt for learning how to listen and try to understand where those points of view come from, whether they are on the right or the left, rather than just ignoring it and brushing it aside? Human skills are what we need more of.

It's just beautifully said and I think, you know, there is example after example where people can kind of bridge those gaps and build those relationships and you don't have to agree about everything to have a connection with somebody. You don't have to have the same beliefs or attitudes. You know, Rick Warren who was the pastor of the Saddleback Church where I worked with him on building a faith-based wellness program, you know, he, you know, is a medical Christian and, you know, has, has Republican friends and Democrat friends. On either side, they kind of berate him for why are you talking to them or why are you doing this? He says, listen, I'm not right wing or left wing, I'm for the whole bird, otherwise you fly in circles. That's not a great idea. I think that your stories reminded me of a very similar story of this white supremacist who was a young man who was one of the leaders in the movement, who was the spokesperson, was on television all the time and justifying all his views and had grown up in that environment. He went to a college where there really wasn't a lot of similar kind of views that he had. But he was just going to school. He was kind of a pariah. No one really wanted to have anything to do with him. This one Jewish kid invited him for Shabbat dinner. And then he wanted to come over and he's like, okay, because he didn't have any friends. And this guy, this Jewish kid, started building a relationship with him. They started to say, tell me what you think. Tell me your views. Tell me why you think this. Tell me your reasons and the data behind it. and let me be curious about that. And so you started to learn and then it was just here's a perspective and here's other data and here's other information. So over a year they built this friendship and relationship and eventually this guy kind of disavowed his white supremacy and became an advocate for a very different point of view. And it was like, whoa, that's just such a striking story because we're so much about being right and being righteous. And I had a business coach once said to me, you can be right or you can be in relationship. That was a really beautiful Framework is, you know, all we want to do is be heard and listened to. And often that just diffuses everything.

Dia talks about this. I mean, she would say when she was younger, she would be a part of the anti-rally. You know, if there was a bunch of white supremacists, she would be part of the anti-rally. And she said, I spat on them, and I high-fived my friends, and we felt great, and we self-righteous. And we went home, you know, pumping our fists, and she says, you, know how much impact I made? Zero, zero impact. All I did was feel good about myself that I spat on a white supremacist, but I didn't actually do anything. And I think that it's extremely difficult to be a good listener, not just to somebody whose views we find morally repugnant, but it's extremely difficult to listen to a spouse or loved one who's telling you that you did something that hurt them. It's extremely difficult to have a conversation with a colleague or coworker or a boss who we're being told we did something wrong or we have to tell somebody they did something wrong. Listening is extremely difficult and most of us are crap at it.

We're not taught how to do it. We're not taught how to do it.

And it's not some innate thing like breathing. It's a skill and nobody expects you to know how to ride a bicycle unless you learned how to do it and then practiced. well, we should learn how to listen and practice. Like, we need to teach these skills.

Yeah. You know, it was interesting. I I I was going to tell a quick story where, where I actually use this, and it was so powerful. I've used it a lot in my relationships where I just sit and listen, like, hey, let me get you. Let me hear what you're up. Let me unload, and I'll just get it. And I don't, I don't respond. I don't share my perspective. I listen, and then I feedback what's happening. And it's amazing how transformational it is. I I was I've been married a bunch of times. In my last relationship, really an amazing woman, beautiful woman, it's just a really just kind of me person. She went to my 60th birthday party with me and I had just come out of heart surgery. I was a little bit kind of out of it. I was sort of on some pain medication. She said, Look, I want you to take care of me here because I don't know anybody. Make sure you introduce me to people. Make sure you you know, you're kind of attending to me. I'm like, okay, okay. So I basically, long story short, I had a friend who was under federal indictment for an immigration issue that was just big, kind of sort of witch hunt, in a sense. He was an immigration lawyer and no one knew about it except him and his girlfriend. His girlfriend kind of rushed me and just unloaded on me and my wife was standing there and I just was like, I kind of was in shock because she should have been talking about it anyway. And I just, I didn't, you know, introduce her and she'd never met her and it just, my wife got very upset and she like stormed out and didn't want to be there and it was just like, here's my friend's 60th birthday. I could have been indignant and said, what are you doing? Why are you acting like this? Just come on, you know? And instead I just like found her in the parking lot and I said, okay, let me get where you're at. Like what happened? What's going on? And she's just sort of kind of unloaded and then I just literally fed back to her, so I get you felt I wasn't present for you, you get I wasn't taking care of you, I get that you're, you know, feeling this and that and the other thing. And like, like within five minutes, she was sitting in my lap with me making out, you know, so like, it can happen like that if you learn the skill, but it's something I had to learn. It wasn't automatic. It wasn't taught. And essentially it means, you know, putting aside your own inner narrative when someone else is talking and just listening to them without your own agenda or story or overlay or justification or rationalization or judgment or anything. And it's a super hard thing to do. Yeah. And you will feel like emotions. You will feel activated. You might to feel triggered, you might feel your blood boiling, you might feel a whole argument come up in your head about why they're wrong. But it's not about right or wrong, it's about actually getting somebody. And then they can do the same thing for you and you end up not even having to agree on what the outcome is, but just that act of listening itself is healing and you don't have to kind of believe the same thing at the end of it. It's really quite amazing.

It's perhaps one of the greatest acts of service we can give to someone. you know, because all any of us want are to feel seen, to feel heard, and to feel understood. And that's basically it. And creating space for someone to feel seen, heard, and understood without any response or needing to fix something is one of the most tremendous acts of service we can give to someone. There's a really funny video on YouTube. I don't know if you've ever seen it. It's called It's Not About the Nail. It's only a minute and a half long. If you just go on YouTube and put, It's not about the nail, it's the one with bazillions of views, watch that one. And it really captures how crap we are at listening and how all we want to do is fix things where all somebody else wants is just a safe space to let out whatever that is inside them. And as you said, once she felt seen, heard and understood, she was fine. Yeah, there's nothing to fix.

How do you teach people that? Like you do this all the time with people. So what are the practical ways to get individuals and groups of people to start to practice this? Because it seems to be the key to one building relationship, to being connected, to feeling part of community, to healing all the isolation and division and separateness we have in our society. It's such a simple, in a way, tool, but it's like you know, we just don't know how to do it. Sure.

Well, there's multiple ways. I mean, you can actually run exercises. You give people scripts and say, you,'re going to be, you know, the one who has to, you know, talk to this person. You're going to be the one who has to sort of confront them and they're going to start giving you excuses and you have to go into listening mode. And, you know, you can, and we always do those things with three people. It's like a good sales training. You have one person who plays the salesperson, one who plays the customer, but the person who actually learns is the observer. you know, because they can watch it play out. So you always have to have three so there's an observer and everybody plays every role. So you could do exercises. But really it's about learning to replace judgment with curiosity. And I always say that there's three things when somebody starts talking to you, you know, instead of reacting, being right, being wrong, it's not nothing to do with those things. It's trying to understand where they're coming from, trying to understand what they mean, You know, so reflexive listening, what I'm hearing is, is that right? You know, and you put it in your own words and they'll say yes or no, and they'll correct you. So, the pursuit to try and understand meaning, but also just as I said before, replace judgment with curiosity. And there's three words, you know, three phrases, which is go on, what else?

Tell me more. Go on, what else? Tell me more.

Tell me more. Like, if somebody's saying to you, look, I'm really, Can I, and like starting those conversations, you know? And sometimes you have to switch, sometimes you start the conversation, but then you have to become the listener. Hey, can I have a difficult conversation with you? Right? So you set somebody up, I need to have an uncomfortable conversation, right? I'm not sure I'm going to get this right, so I need you to fumble through with me. But when you said to me yesterday, you know, the way you talk to that, that woman and you ignored me really hurt my feelings. And you start getting all defensive or whatever. Or let's turn it around. You say to her, hey, can have an uncomfortable station. When you ran out of the room that night, you really embarrassed me and humiliated me in front of my friends at their birthday party.

Right?

But now you actually have to become the listener because she has to now unload.

Right?

And now you have to hold that incubator for her. Go on, what else? Tell me more. Go on, what else? Tell me more. Is that all? What else? Tell me more. I want, tell me, what else? And they'll start at the superficial level and you get deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper and eventually they'll say, I just wanted to feel next to you. And then you can say, I love, you know, that's what I want.

Exactly. Exactly. I think that what else tell me more? Is that all? Is there anything else? I think that's important because it just gets down to a deeper layer.

And I've done it with politics as well, right? Where I had a conversation with a friend where we have very divided politics. And we didn't know that when we became friends. And it came up in one of our conversations. And both of us were like, oh, okay. You know? And I remember she was saying something and I definitely thought, and I may have said, How can you be so stupid? And she said to me, you, just called your friend stupid. And I realized, what did I just do? And I had to learn to sort of not try and be right and prove her wrong in whatever that debate was. I had to learn to hold space and understand where she was coming from. And so we both learned that skill with each other because we care about each other and we didn't want the friendship to collapse. and what I learned was, is when we have one of those times where one of us is triggered by the other, what the other person said, immediately the other person will say, I want to know more about that. Tell me more. And what happens if you allow that person with, go on, what else? Tell me more, what else? Tell me more. Eventually they get, you get to a point where you can actually find a detail that you can absolutely agree on. And you say, that's a hundred percent correct. I completely agree with that. Yes, the science bears that out, or I just agree, yes. And as soon as you find common ground, you can build back up again and you actually find out you're both way more open-minded to each other than where you started. But you have to have the patience to go to the point where you can find anything where you can agree. Yeah. And sometimes it's really hard. And you said it as well. And Dia Khan learned it. You have feelings, but you can't let those feelings control the conversation. Like we have to control the conversation.

If you love that last video, you're gonna love the next one. Check it out here.

The body's so objective that it does not know the difference between the real life experience that's creating that emotion and the emotion that person is fabricating by thought or memory alone. The body's believing it's living in the same past experience.