An Integrative Approach to Lyme Disease with Dr. Susan Cucchiara, Naturopathic Doctor | Ep. 93

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Hello and welcome back to the Holistic Inner Balance podcast. I'm happy, healthy, Hadley. I'm Dr. Nicole and we are here today with Dr. Susan Kuchara, and she owns the Naturally Sue Wellness, which is a naturopathic patient practice offering virtual and in person visits in Los Angeles and New York, New York City. And Dr. Sue's specialty is helping millennials with the ill effects of burnout and the negative impacts on their health. So Dr. Sue helps patients with demanding careers regain their energy, motivation, creativity, and natural beauty using interventions through group coaching as well as one on one appointments.

I am so excited to have sue here. Hadley, I just have to tell you that I love and admire and respect Susan so much. And she. I just want to introduce y' all to her. You know, you have the bio. But in full disclosure, Susan and I have been really great friends for many years and we went to the same school together and we talk shop together and we drink organic smoothies together. And she's just. She's just amazing. And, you know, I really. Susan, I'm just so glad that you're here. And one of the things that I think you are amazing at is helping identify things that get in the way of people truly shining. You help people with burnout. That's your zone of genius. And as a nature care physician, as a vitalist, you do that by looking at what's getting in the way, what is the root cause of their symptoms, as opposed to just giving them a bunch of strategies to feel better. You're like, what's in the way of that? And for some people, it's Lyme. And so I would love to learn a little bit about Lyme in this conversation. I want to learn about your experience with Lyme. I think that it's a really relevant conversation piece. And so I know I'm talking. Alex, I'm so excited to have you here.

But no, I'm so excited too.

I'm so excited about this topic. I think, like, some. Everyone needs to know about this, so I'm really excited to dive in.

Yeah. So, no, first, I'm so honored to be here. Dr. Nicole Kane and I, like, she, like, she mentioned, have been very special friends. You know, when you have that, like, soul bond with someone, I feel like I have that with her. So I'm so grateful for her, not only as a friend, but as a colleague and also even doing doctoring for me sometimes too. So I'm absolutely so grateful to be here. And I'm really happy you guys asked me because not enough People are talking about Lyme disease. Just recently, more celebrities have been talking about it. So it's helping because now, I don't know if you guys know Real Housewives of New York, Bethany Frankel, they think she might have Lyme disease. Now Yolanda Hadid and other housewives of Beverly Hills, she now, you know, she wrote a book called Believe Me, because no one believes the symptoms. No one believes it's a real illness. Allie Hilfiger wrote a book called Bite Me. And then even I think Justin Bieber just came out with Lyme, and then I think was Avril Lavigne. So, like, these at least celebrities are talking about it. They had talked about it in the White House during the press conference once, I heard. So it's at least being brought to attention more. So just a little bit about my story and why I've been so passionate about this. I. Well, I did grow up in a very Lyme endemic area. I was in Long island, which is in New York, like, probably 20 minutes, 30 minutes, minutes from the Hamptons, where you hear, you know, that's where Lyme disease comes from. But we also will talk about later how Lyme is everywhere. So that's another reason why it's so undiagnosed. But I think from like, maybe 17 and on, I just had the same four symptoms. I'm tired, or maybe five. I'm tired, I'm nauseous. I have a headache. You know, I'm tired. I'm nauseous. I have a headache. I'm dizzy. It was like it was on repeat. And then those symptoms just kept kind of developing deeper and deeper and. But they weren't. They were like my normal. But they weren't stopping my life so much. And then I remember I was in basically New York City doing advertising. That was my career. Like, it was my dream job. And I remember, like, downing cups of coffee every day, washing, like, Nexium down with it, because I was like, burning on fire from the stress of actually not it not being my dream job to then having Lyme disease that I didn't even know I had. And so this just continued throughout the years. And what put the nail in the coffin was six years of naturopathic medical school. I remember seeing my naturopath before, and my brain was on fire, and I was taking my boards with my. Literally, my head on the table. By the grace of God, I passed my boards, and I knew something was terribly wrong. And then as soon as, you know, the adrenaline is over from boards, that was it. Yeah, you Guys know that, that feeling.

Yeah, the crash that comes after the boards that cortisol finally can lift and then inflammation just skyrockets.

We were literally just talking about that actually when. When Dr. Was visiting me. Yeah, it's just like the high and then. Yeah, thanks. Cortisol.

Yeah, thanks. Cortisol got me through, but I now I cannot pick. Like I literally was dragging. I don't even know how I got. Because I'm from New York. So when I was in Arizona for medical, so I moved back to New York to start my practice and I don't even know how I made it there. And then at that point I was like, something is wrong. And then got referred to a medical doctor who was actually practiced like German biological medicine. And he actually did some bioresonance testing because no testing. Actually, that's what I want to talk to you guys about today. No testing came up. I did Igenics, which is one of the world's most accurate blind tests, and bioresonance is what found mine. And how I knew he was accurate because I had to take his word for it because it was energetic. Testing was that a year after I got treated for Lyme disease, all my entire Lyme, like my western blot was fully positive because my body finally surmounted an immune response to show I had an infection. So, you know, there's very non traditional ways that people are now looking for, you know, answers because they have these mystery symptoms and they're not putting together or their doctor, if they don't have this bullseye rash or they didn't know they just got bit, it's like, oh, no big deal. Or you don't have the amount of bands on a western blot. Oh, you don't have Lyme.

So I really want to, I want to emphasize that because I remember that conversation is you and I were talking about it and I was like, gosh, Sue, I don't know, like you've had the blood testing done and I don't know if this bioresonance thing is.

I know.

Yeah, really very accurate. And it's cash pay. And I was worried that someone's going to take you for a ride. And so if you're listening to this conversation and you have that thought that's coming up in your head of like, well, why wouldn't it show up on standard testing and then it showed up on bioresonance and then it was released later, is that I really want to emphasize the importance of if you're not finding the answers is you have to look outside of the box is number one and then number two is the immune response. And so I think it requires that we understand a little bit about the immune system. So can you just explain just a little bit more about what you said about how the immune system hadn't mounted a response sufficiently to show up on tests?

Yep.

So when you, let's say you get bit by a tick, I don't know, God forbid, at 4 o' clock today, and you're like, okay, I got bit by a tick. And then the doctors tell you, oh, if it's not, you know, on you for 24 hours, don't worry, you don't have Lyme, which that's false too. Or can't transmit Lyme if it's not there and engorged for 24 hours or 48 hours, that's not accurate. And then you decide to just let it go. Right. If you didn't go see someone who's Lyme literate, like a Lyme literate, naturopathic doctor, or medical doctor, even those nurse practitioners are Lyme literate, what can happen is that then the infection will go deeper and more chronic, versus if you were to originally test six to eight weeks after the acute bites, that acute infection, that's when your immune system actually will say, hey, there's antibodies here. There's something we're fighting now. Right. So that's when, so that's why when people get bit by a tick and they go get a test for Lyme a week later, their doctor says you don't have it. They, they, they didn't test the right time. So the immune system cannot surmount a response that quick. You can feel lousy within that week. But for actual antibodies and for an entire western blot, which is what they call the gold standards, for the certain amount of bands to show up, Lyme bands, you do need that six to eight week window. That's why everyone's missing it. And so if it goes chronic, let's say you'd never then treated it like it wasn't treated for me in probably 15, 20 years over, then what happens is that you do the test. And this is the biggest misconception of the test, that people think when you test Lyme on an insurance based test, it's testing if the organism's in your body. It's not. The ticks actually get better testing than you do because the ticks, if you send a tick in, they'll check the tick for Borrelia burgdorfi, which is Lyme but they will not check you for Lyme. They only check you if your immune response surmounted. But think about, people have different. I mean immune systems were constitutionally different. And if you got bit 15, 20 years ago, do you think your immune system has still the wherewithal to be able to be producing such large amount of antibodies that it's showing up positive on a test? So it's, it's that period that where you have to grab it like you have to know when to test and you're not taught this like you even Dr. King would you remember in medical school, I think we learned about Lyme in one slide of a. Like a microbiology PowerPoint.

The most I heard about it was Dr. Sense and ranting like in class, like normal.

Yes, he was. Dr. Sensing was our mentor and he was in basically Connecticut where it's like an epicenter of Lyme and all he was getting is Lyme patients. And that's exactly what he would send say. He would say like, this is madness. The tick got better testing. Why are we not. So that's where we're like, okay, why are they not taking care of us? Why are they producing tests that are really not accurate? And that's why there are these specialty tests that are then run for people who are not getting answers from those.

Is it true in veterinary medicine that they'll actually test for the.

Yes, I think so. Yeah.

Yeah. That's something that's always made me scratch my head. Is that if you bring an animal in, like a cat or a dog, they'll. Yes, the proper test.

Exactly.

I see Hadley in the. Her head's exploding right now.

My mind is blown.

Yeah.

This is so insane.

Wow.

Wow. And so, so I'm curious, you said that it's a six to eight week window and so do then do the antibodies kind of like settle down then after those eight weeks? And that's why even if you test.

Later, you if it's the more acute it is, the more likely it will come up even within that year. I've had patients who got bit a year or two ago and they're still coming up with, you know, they'll come up the closer it is to the initial infection. That's when it's easier to detect. But I'll have random cases. I'm not going to say I don't where it's been 15 years and that's flaring or this is my favorite story. I had a patient who. So the medical doctors will do the two tier testing. If your ELIZA is Negative. This is the first tier that the CDC standard. They will not reflex to a western blot, which is a full panel of a bunch of bands. That's actually a more accurate test. She was negative about 10 times for the ELISA, which is. It's an antibody test that they do that detects, I think, 10 to 20% of Lyme. So it's highly inaccurate. So it didn't reflect to the western blot. When she became my patient, I said, you never even had a western blot. You live in Connecticut. You feel all. You have textbook Lyme. Sure enough, she was fully CDC positive on the western blot after two years of being negative on the eliza, because he just wouldn't run it for her. So he went. She went back to him and said, look. And then he just scuffed, you know, like he didn't want to hear it. Like. Like, you know, because there. There's an arrogance of, you know, I don't want to be wrong here, but it's the patient's health that's suffering, you know, so it's a lot of times getting missed that way, too, because they're doing what the CDC says to test.

So I'm also curious. I mean, I don't really know a whole lot about this, so I'm just.

Yeah, no, I'm happy to answer. Yeah, people don't. So these. I'm sure everyone wants to know. Yeah.

So I'm curious. So you said that, you know, it doesn't really show up for those six to eight weeks, and then. And then after that, it's. You can actually test for it, but, you know, you don't want to wait too long. Too long to be able to. To see it. I'm curious, is it easier to treat the earlier you get it.

Okay. Immediately, no matter what the test does. So if someone gets bit by a tick, I'm treating immediately. I don't care if I know if the tick has Lyme. Some people will save the tick. If. So most people freak out. They see a tick, they're, like, grabbing it. They're, like, doing all sorts of crazy stuff, and then they, like, swing it out the window because they're frantic and panicking. But this is the most important thing I'm going to say that if you get bit by a tick and you have access to the tick, not only do you need to remove it properly so it doesn't, you know, excrete even more of the Lyme or any type of toxins. Like, there's actually videos. You could just, you Know Google with how to remove a tick properly with tweezers. Like you just simply go up with a tweezer. That's why if people are going to go out in the summer, they should always have tweezers with them. But if they know they got bit, they send that tick for testing, but immediately start herbs. If I know, let's just say this and then it's, it's everything. So people say, okay, so when, when do. Would you do antibiotics? When do you do antibiotics? It's a very, it's a case by case basis. If you are going to do an antibiotic ever, it would only be during that acute and you can not only depend on it by itself because the Lyme will hide from the red, like the hide. The Lyme will actually hide in red blood cells in the presence of an antibiotic. So it just wants, it wants to live in you. So why would you know? It's very strong and powerful. So you want to make sure that if you do take an antibiotic, it's the right amount and it's the right antibiotic. Because what they'll do now is they'll give you one, literally one pill of doxycycline and they say you're good, you don't have Lyme, two years later, they have chronic Lyme symptoms. So it needs to be at least if they're going to do it, a two to three week course of a proper amount of doxycycline, tag team with herbs and working on their terrain and immune system. That's going to be. So yeah, it should be. You should never wait for a test. But some people don't even give antibiotics acutely. They just watch and wait and treat with herbs immediately. You really have to base it on the case by case because some patients, I had a patient last actually just yesterday, she got bit a year ago, she took the doxy, the three weeks she took the herbs. We just did a test on her, she still has Lyme. So you never know. The antibiotic just, it doesn't always work for acute. Even if we say that's the best time. I do, I honestly personally have never seen it work for chronic and that's my experience, you're actually hurting them more because you're already in a really depleted state and now you're giving them doxy, which is harsh on the liver and gut. And so it's very case by case in terms of like when do you, would you give an antibiotic versus herbs only? But you always would give herbs if you did an antibiotic.

Okay. Oh, that's so interesting. And so I'm. I'm curious just to kind of, like, take a couple steps back just for our audience to maybe, like, give a little synopsis on, you know, what. Like, very basic, but, like, what is Lyme disease? How does it actually, you know, proliferate in the body, all of that kind of thing, just so that we can all get our bearings.

Yep. So people call Lyme disease Lyme disease because it started. They first actually discovered that it was a disease in Lyme, Connecticut, so they called it Lyme disease. The organism that causes Lyme disease, the most prevalent one is Borrelia burgdorferi. I always remembered it because I would think of, like, Bergdorf Goodman in Manhattan, but it's not glamorous. So that's how I would remember for.

My test all the good mnemonics. Yeah.

And so this organism, they call it a spirochet. So it's like a little. Think about, like, a little fusilli macaroni pasta. You know, like, it's like a spiral. And that's why it's so tricky, because it can kind of burrow into things. Right. Joint spaces. That's why, like, textbook Lyme is like swollen knees and joints. And. And they basically, just as a little synopsis, they, like hikers were starting to get Lyme symptoms in, I think, the 1960s. And then there was this woman, I think Polly Murray, I believe her name was, and she and her whole family were plagued by Lyme, and they were telling them that her children had juvenile arthritis. When I hear juvenile arthritis, it's my red flag for Lyme disease, because no kid just has juvenile arthritis randomly. Like, there's either something else very deeper going on, or it's likely Lyme disease. And so they finally, at that point, because she kept talking to this, you know, the Department of Health in Connecticut, they decided to call it a disease. But the, like, the origin of it is, you know, controversial. I was talking to Dr. Kane about this too. You know, there's one man who is, like, found in a glacier. I don't know if you heard about this 5,000 years ago that was known to have lime. So we're like, oh, was it back that far? You have that theory? Then you have the theory, like, it's spread because, you know, it's. You know, you get it from a tick. Usually you can also get it spread by a flea or a mosquito, which is why a lot of people also don't know about Lyme. I have five patients or yeah, in California got bit by mosquitoes and have Lyme. So it could be mosquitoes, ticks, but they're saying that it can actually because the population of deer have increased. They're saying that this is why. And then lastly they call us a conspiracy theory that a lot of people believe, but Plum island was an actual island next to Lyme, Connecticut where they did chemical warfare and they used insects to spread disease for biowarfare. And they're saying that the containment just actually it just got out by accident and they just thought that was a little bit too close for comfort. Like how, you know, but if there was a 5,000 year old man, there may have been, that may have not been the case. So we don't know. But there's a book called Lab 257 on that topic if people are interested in that type of stuff. But yeah, that's the kind of the basis of it. But it is a bacteria.

And I think it's really. You've emphasized this, but I want to make sure that the people who are listening get the, get the message that it's not just if you're like up in the northeast and you get bit by a tick. Rodents carry ticks. And so in the New York subways they could be spray spreading it and mosquitoes in California. And the other thing that you've mentioned that I really want to emphasize too is that somebody can get bit and then it may be undiagnosed for 15, 20 plus years. And so that's why it's so important to really understand your biography, to understand your history, to understand your story and try to identify where there are moments in time when things seem to shift. Because like, like you said, Dr. Sue, is that there may not be that classic bullseye rash. You may not have the classic symptoms. Everybody's immune system is different. But if you're able, if you have a doctor who'll pay attention and like really dig in with you, there may be indicators along the way that give you data even if the tests are negative. So I wanted to point that out because I think that's really important for us all to hear.

Yep, 100%. That's why in my intake form for any new patient, it says, were you bit by a tick? And people don't even know that. That's a big deal. They'll say like, I had a new patient a few weeks ago and she has like 25 symptoms. And I said, and then I had a consultation with her just to see if we would be a good fit And I kind of had a feeling she might have been live. I'm like, I'm not sure. But I didn't say anything. And then I read her intake form. She's like, yeah, I got bit by 5 to 10 ticks. And I was like, were you ever treated? She said, no. I said, okay, well, you likely. I mean, not likely, but you, you have Lyme disease. I mean, you just have to ask these questions, and people are not asking and they're not telling you because they don't know what's important. I have nurses all over New York that they're like, that's important. I have a nurse patient who has got diagnosed with Ms. And she got treatment for Ms. For 10 years. And then she told me she got bit by a tick, and I did Lyme treatment on her and she became 85% better. So it's actually diagnosed as other diseases because they don't know what it is. So you have to ask every patient who's having symptoms that are not seeming to get better by the stuff that we normally know gets them better. Right. Like good nature cure.

Let's talk about germ theory versus terrain theory. I think that's.

Yeah, I was going to ask about that because you mentioned. You have to. You just mentioned terrain in there. And I was like, oh, our audience will want to know what this is about.

Yeah, because I don't want to create anxiety in someone who's listening, you know, because like, I. I grew up in Iowa and I was a camp counselor one terrible summer. I hated camp counseling. But I remember one night I took the girls out on an overnight in the woods, and I spent like all night pulling ticks off of these girls. Like these little buggers were everywhere. And I'm sure I remember I had ticks, too. And I don't remember, like the details of whether or not I was bit, but I don't suffer.

Exactly that. Exactly the concept. I was telling you that that's what I've been honing in on for several years. Not everyone. This is not to create fear in anyone. It's to create awareness that these organisms exist. And if you're not feeling well and no one's able to find the answer, this might be your answer. But this is not too fear, you know, life and, you know, being out in nature, you take the proper precautions, right? You, you know, if you're going to go to an area where, you know, is tick prevalent, or you're hiking, you know, afterwards, you're going to put your clothes in the dryer to get, you know, you're going to use a lint roller on your body. You're going to check all your areas around your hair. You'll use natural tick sprays. Like, there's ways to prevent getting bit. But not everyone who gets bit by a tick gets sick. And I have. Perfect. There's a go. There's an example. Just you. I have friends. They're bit by ticks. They're fine. Right. So I personally see it being more terrain. Right. And usually from my perspective, the patients that I tend to see and even in my own personal case have been traumatized by something, whether it be a childhood trauma, an adult trauma. It's those patients, and I can say every single one of the ones that I have, that are the hardest Lyme cases have unresolved trauma. Either they didn't remember it until a certain amount of time, or they just suppressed it because they couldn't deal with it. And those are the people who, if they don't do that piece, they won't get well with just the physical herbs. So when they're, you know, those are the ones who fight me the most. They're like, no, but give me more herbs. And like, they're not working. They're. You know, even in my case, I, you know, I spent a ton of money, and the only thing that helped start to shift me was emdr. Right. It was actually trauma therapy. And, you know, when a met, even the medical doctor said to me, you have an emotional, spiritual issue going on here. That is the crux of what you need to work on after getting rid of the infection. He's like, I helped you get rid of the infection, but now you need to do this work, and we don't want to do this work generally because it is not easy or glamorous to go into those dark spaces where we are not comfortable.

I'm so glad that we're talking about this. Yeah. It makes such a big difference. And obviously it ties back to all of the things that we talk about on this podcast all the time. Do you want to just give us a brief explanation of terrain theory versus germ theory for anyone who. Who isn't aware of that?

Yeah. So the best way I just describe it is that you have an environment. I just call it almost like your soil. Right. My best. The fact, like Dr. Sensing, our mentor, used to always say, you know, when people were to get. Let's just say they got cancer and then they cut it out, and then they're like, I'm healed. I beat Cancer, and then they end up growing somewhere else or growing back. He would say it's like a game of whack a mole, right? It's like you suppress it somewhere else and then it pops up right somewhere else. So if we don't change, like I call it, the best way for me, for my patients to understand it is I call it the soil. You have to change the soil by which that disease grew or the environment of the body. Right. Instead of worrying about the germ. Because why is it that you'll have five people in a family who get Covid, or one gets Covid and two of them are fine and don't get Covid. So why would you know. It all comes back to, this is our environment, our terrain. That's the best way I describe it. I don't know if, Dr. Kane, you have another way to describe it, but that's my way that I usually share to patients, and it kind of gives them that aha moment.

And I think that's why it's so important to do whole person healing. Our healthcare system is divided into specialties. And so you have Lyme showing up in the nervous system, you go to a neurologist, or if you have Lyme showing up in the gastrointestinal system, you see a gastro. And it's very possible, and we see this really commonly, that our headaches can get better by working on our gut, and our gut can get better by working on the nervous system, because everything is all interrelated. And so when we think about the train. I love what you said about the soil. I think that's brilliant. It's like whatever the foundation of health is, whatever your soil is, like, that's what's going to grow. And so no matter what you're dealing with, you're listening to this podcast, and maybe you're dealing with symptoms of Lyme, or maybe you have panic attacks, but physically you feel great. The answer is always still going back to the fundamentals of health, to help your body to be as vital and as resilient as possible.

And it's why the habits are so important. That's why my passion is habits. It's like, what are you doing every day?

What are you doing every day? Yeah.

So good. Okay, so I would love to bring some hope into the conversation now that we, you know, and because you said that you suffered from. From Lyme and for how many years?

20. Oh, my goodness. It was probably undiagnosed for like 15 to 20 years. I was debilitated. I was I mean, I still suffer from the effects of having it so long undiagnosed. But the quality of life difference, I mean, I would be up till 8am in the morning. I couldn't sleep. We call it Lyme somnia. I mean, I would have the worst periods of my life. I'd be on the floor with like stabbing periods. I can't remember the last time I had a painful period. Like, it's. I have to like, think of it like you hold on to the last things that you have, right? So I want to say that you do. People do get better. I have patients who they had, they're having babies now, they're healthy. I check in from them once a month. Like, I haven't heard from you. Okay. They're like, yeah, I'm doing really good. So it helps me know that, okay, what I'm doing for them is actually helping. Like when I don't hear from them, I'm like, okay, good news. You know, no news is like good news because usually they'll tell me when they feel horrific. But yes, it takes. The longer that you have it undiagnosed or untreated, the longer it takes. And I happen to get really hard cases where they've probably had Lyme for 20 years. So I tell them it's going to take at least a year, minimum. I remember my medical doctor said that it takes about one month to, for every year you're undiagnosed to start regenerating. That was his, you know, so. And again, because there's different phases of Lyme, if you had already been untreated and you're in the late disseminated phase, that's when it goes to neurological system. So that's what happened to me. And that's where even just the work of with Dr. Nicole, she does, you know, a lot of mental health. That's a big part of it too, right? These people can manifest in this, you know, mental disorders getting diagnosed, but it actually be Lyme disease. So yes, the answer question, there is hope. I see people get better. It's just about patients. Because it does a chronic disease like Lyme disease or an autoimmune disease, it does affect your quality of life. You can't do the same things other people are doing. You have relationship, you know, issues because they're healthy and they want you to go out. There's problems there. You know, there's many husbands have left their wives or wives have left their husbands over that because it was just so hard for them to bear so it's just a lot of interpersonal things that are in there. The money that's used. Right. Because insurance doesn't cover most of this stuff. So it's not easy for them. But it's not impossible. That's the good news. It's not impossible. I've seen people get better every single day.

The prognosis is so much better when you're able to combat it from multiple directions, which you hinted at at the beginning, like using a naturopathic approach that may or may not involve antibiotics. Definitely involves herbs. We haven't even gotten into the biofilm component of it. Supporting the terrain, using the habits like that. The prognosis can be so much better by using an integrative approach, I think.

100%. Yeah. When you use, like, people say, oh, will acupuncture be okay to do with my treatment? I'm like, oh, my God, of course. Like, do all the things. If you can afford it. Do all the things. Not to the point you're overwhelming yourself and you're, like, exhausted. Like, I wrote a post on Instagram, like, do you have healing fatigue? Because you're doing, like, 4 million things. Like, not overwhelming. Right. You know, when you're like, you have a checklist of like, 14 people you're going to each week. Like, that's not healing. But if you can, you know, go for an acupuncture appointment once a week or once every other week, or go jump in a sauna. Right. Or whatever, you can do IVs, if people can afford that. So the more integrated, the better in terms of different modalities to get better quicker. And then making sure you prioritize the mental health in the emotions and the trauma, that's going to be pivotal.

As you look like you're so deep in thought, like, I see your brain going a mile a minute, I'm just.

Like, yeah, been there, been in that. The healing fatigue before. I love that you say that. Yeah. And that's. That's not healing because you're stressing yourself out.

So people like solutions and actionables. I was wondering. Hadley, I just talked over you. That was so rude.

No, it's good. I like. I like when people are talking over me because it just means that we're excited and we're all just like, you're.

Like, over me all the time. Works. I'm like. But I would love to hear some solutions, especially the more naturopathic, holistic solutions. Like, so let's say that, like, I go out, God forbid, four hours, four o' clock today I get chomped like, what can I do? What can I do right away?

So one of the first things is that night clay putting something to draw out the toxins. So you put clay on it first, irrigate, wash it really well. If all you have is like a Neosporin, that's okay. Some people put like tea tree oil salves. Some people put like echinacea, like a tincture of echinacea they'll put on it. And then you then, then at that point you're going to do really acute lime herbs. So I actually have an acute lime package I give to people on my website where it's. If I'll get random messages on Instagram, I get bit by tick. What do I do? And it's like a Saturday. I'm like, buy this because you need to take this stuff right away. And I do encourage people to have it in their house because you don't want to wait five days. And then that's even you're going to panic even more because now you're thinking, oh my God, what's happening in these five days that I'm waiting. But some of the more acute ones do. I usually do really high dose probiotics, like really high dose acutely support the immune system and the gut. And then I do drainers. So I'll use like those homeopathic drainers to help drain toxins out. And then I use herbs like T cell root or cat's claw. Astragalus is a really great herb for acute Lyme. And then those are the main ones that I will do in high dose, like you know, vitamin D or if the person can tolerate high dose a, any type of zinc, really high immune support of vitamins, minerals. And then I have them do a lot of hydrotherapy. So if they could do magic socks or alternating hot and cold in the shower just to get their blood lymph moving.

What is magic socks?

Oh my goodness.

Oh my Marketing than cold wet socks.

We call them magic socks because if we call them wet socks, usually people don't want to do them. But in a very short snippet you put basically you warm yourself up with like a hot cup of tea or just like dunk your feet in some hot, you know, hot bathtub or take a bath and you don't want to be cold and then do this, you do this before bed. You and then you put on a pair of like cotton socks that you dunked in water. I don't have my patients, the most sensitive patients Alive. So I don't have them put the socks then in the freezer before they put on their feet because that's just horrifying for them. So I just have them like dunk it under cool water, wring it out. They put on two pair of socks over and then they go to bed. And so what that's doing is that's helping move blood and lymph, that is drawing stuff out of the head and neck and then you're basically heating up the body so. So that any pathogens can die. So it's a very cheap way and it's supposed to also put you into parasympathetic and help you actually get into a deeper sleep. So some people actually like it to fall asleep. So it's a kind of like an at home water hydrotherapy detox.

Oh, that's so cool. I love it. So the, the it's cold water though.

It's. Or if you can't tolerate cold, like even if it's cool, but it's cold water and you make sure it's not. The water needs to be completely wrung out from the socks because you dripping socks because you're not going to warm that up. You're going to wake up, feel awful. So you just want to ring it out and make sure there's enough. The wool keeps the heat in and so you want to wake up with dry feet. That's the whole purpose. So that all night your body is working to warm it up. Yeah, you could do that for acute colds, flus or even just if you want to detox or. Yeah, so I'll do that for patients or have them jump in a sauna, castor oil packs, dry brushing and then in that six to eight week window then we'll test for Lyme and then usually I treat for at least a year if it comes up. But I will say this is one thing that disappointed me. I did have a patient who tested for his tick for Lyme and it's N co infections and it didn't have any or sorry, didn't have a CO infection that had Lyme. But then when his doctor checked him for Bartonella, he had Bartonella. So we don't know if he had Bartonella before or if the tick testing isn't the most accurate. But it's from my experience it's been pretty accurate. But what I'm saying is I am sharing that is always get a test on yourself eventually just because God forbid the tick test wasn't accurate, you don't want to just assume you don't have Lyme. That's why I'm sharing that.

Yeah, I think that's really important. And so then what do you think about retesting? So let's say that somebody gets tested, they're positive for Lyme, you do treatment, and then they're much, much better and they're. Their symptoms are really not a problem anymore. Do you still test or. We just kind of let it roll.

So I will check them at least once a year, like to just make sure. Because under stress it can react, you know, it can go out of dormancy. And the thing that's tricky about testing, and I even, you know, I would ask Kevin, our mentor, about this because this was a tricky thing. It just because you tested and it came up negative, does it mean it's negative? Remember we learned that if your immune system is not surmounting a response, what if that day it wasn't surmounting a response? You go by the patient's symptoms. So if their test is negative and they feel great, it's likely it's negative. But if their test is negative and they still feel horrendous, they feel horrible. You keep treating. It's a clinical diagnosis. You do not depend on those lab tests. So I had a patient the other day, she just said to me, yeah, I feel so much better. I feel like I just have some things to clean up. Like, I feel like much better and her test is negative. I'm like, okay, it's likely dormant. So then at that point you have to just keep supporting their immune system because you can't just be like, okay, bye. You know, just. Even if it's just the basics, right, Like D and probiotics and zinc and good multi mineral and just supportive diet. A good diet, like that's really important because people think, oh, I'm done with the infection. But people who've had Lyme, I truly feel. This is what I want to write about. People who, who got, who have Lyme disease were chosen for a very special reason. And it's to take care of themselves because they abandon themselves more than anyone I've ever seen. And so if they then, let's just say feel better and they start to abandon themselves again, then it's going to start to kick back up again. So they always have to check themselves and say, how much am I pushing? You know, how much am I actually pushing myself outside of what I can handle? And it makes them really start to look within and say, okay, like I truly abandoned myself all these Years, I haven't really done what I need to do for my body.

Yeah, I think that's, that's such an awesome message. I think that's the case for all, like chronic health things. It's like, yep, I've, I have abandoned myself. And so. Yeah, yeah, that's such a great message. I love that. And I'm curious also, do you want to just give us a little bit of like, what are some of the symptoms to look out for, to, to even just be aware of? Like, should I be getting tested for Lyme?

Yep. So the textbook ones, when I say textbook, I'm talking about the ones that they document the most are going to be like Lyme arthritis, like that, that, that joint pain, muscle pain, neck pain, swollen knees. People will also have like neuro stuff. So tinnitus, ear ringing, is dizziness. I had a patient whose only symptom was dizziness. He went to 15 doctors and we checked him for a western blot. On the first try, he was positive and he might have got bit three years ago. See, so you just never know. You always just test, right. So dizziness, headache, migraines. And then you'll see the little bit more. When they see mysterious, like, you'll see like cognitive, like brain fog, trouble focusing. Getting diagnosed with anxiety, mental health disorders, they'll get, they're just feeling like they're in the dissociated state. Like, not like neither here nor there. A lot of migrating issues. Like, now it's here, now it's here, now it's here, now it's here. It's like moving everywhere. What are the other ones? Some people can get right away, they can get Bell's palsy, they'll get Bell's palsy. They can get meningitis type symptoms initially. And then one thing that's really important is if you think you might have got bit but you don't see a tick, if you see, if you feel flu like symptoms, that's a huge red flag. So if someone says to me, I was in an area that was kind of sketchy, I don't know where, if it had ticks and I started getting the flu after, I immediately treat them for Lyme. Right. So immediate or flu like symptoms. And then the longer that it hasn't been untreated, the more chronic and more of these symptoms that I said just keep building and building and usually then they turn a lot more neurological. I had a patient who just told me last year. Thankfully she said she feels amazing now, but this is a great success. Story. She had paralysis in her legs. I was like, I don't know if I can help. This is a really intense case. Paralysis in her leg. She was working with a nutritionist for two years before. No, a year before, doing terrain, gut and mold treatment. And then we did the Lyme treatment. I seen her got. Get better faster than any other Lyme patient because she did the work on her terrain first and she worked on. People think you just got to work on the bug, but it. That's not the case. So people were. Have. Can have like weakness, paralysis, neuropathy. She would literally couldn't even move her legs for three days. And now she just told me she went to Paris for fashion week a month ago. I love that. Right. She's never been able to like, go out and have even a drink. She's like, I know I shouldn't be drinking all the time, but I just want to be able to once in a while have a drink with my friends. And. And she was able to. So, yeah, those are the main. I would say the main symptoms. And also severe anxiety depression comes with Lyme disease because the organism, because they say, is the. It's twofold. Right. It's living with a chronic illness, creating your anxiety and depression. But it's also the bug. Right. It can. It's causing neurodegeneration. It's inflaming our spinal cord, our meninges, you know.

Yeah. And there's. And so there's a lot of people out there that can help. And you talked about Lyme literate clinicians. And so I think that's really important to emphasize. You know, you want to make sure that who you're seeing is lime literate. Because if you don't order the proper tests or the test at the right time or do the right dosages, like one dose of doxy isn't going to cut it. So you want to see someone Lyme literate. What is your go to referral resource for that? I'm thinking about like LLDs.

Yeah. So you mean LL and MDs, you mean? Or NDs.

I would love MDs. MDs, like all of the Ds, as long as there's LLs in front of them.

There is. Depending on financials, I can go from kind of most expensive to least. So like the Klinghardt. So cling hard. I don't know if you're familiar with him. He's a really renowned doctor in the field of Lyme disease. He has a clink heart institute. I think it's in Seattle or I'm sorry, somewhere on the West Coast. He has an institute there. They treat for Lyme. That's if you want to go and get treatments all holistically. Then there's a doctor I went to in. He was in Manhattan. That is. The center is called nyc. I am. He's a German. He's a. He does German biological medicine, bioresonance testing. And you get all. Everything there. We're talking like, I did oz. You know, blood, ozone. I did magnets. We did any NA T. We did neural therapy. All of these really amazing therapies that a lot of them are coming out of Europe. And they give you various homeopathic IVs they do there. So that center is NYC. I am. These are centers that are pretty pricey, but they are. It's kind of when you're like, I can't. I'm at my wit's end and I haven't been able to even get help maybe through other means for Lyme disease. And then myself and Dr. Sparks, we do virtual or like I said, some in person for me as naturopaths. We do consulting for Lyme disease as naturopaths. There's. What's. There's another doctor I'll remember and I can maybe have you put it in the. One of our. Someone in our vitalist group. She also does a lot of Lyme. Oh, Dr. Aviva work in. Does a lot of Lyme cases. She's a naturopath in. I think she's in Vermont now. So. Yeah. So there are resources and you can always go to. I think it's Ilads it. You can look for a practitioner. There's even Richard Horowitz who's like the guru of Lyme disease on the. On the east coast, who wrote the book. Why. I think it's. Why can't I get better? And at least he's a Lyme literate doctor again. He's very integrated with. He does give a lot of pharmaceuticals and. But he also will give herbs. So it just depends on where you live and what you're looking for.

She has a Horowitz questionnaire, which you can find online.

I love that because those are the people. Not everyone can afford a Lyme test, and not everyone's Lyme test is positive. If they score over certain, you know, amount on that Horowitz questionnaire, which is free, you can test. And if you're over a certain amount, it will tell you your likelihood that you have Lyme. So it's again, line is a Clinical diagnosis, you do not need to have a positive test. If that's positive and you haven't been able to get answers, it's really helpful and it's a cheap free way. You just Google Horowitz Questionnaire.

H O R O W I T Z is Horowitz.

And I actually have the fillable one for people who do not want to. I'll put it in here so you have it. The fillable one where you don't have to add it up. You will just do it for you. Yeah, little energy off your brain.

Tiredoflime.com Horowitz thank you so much. Yeah, Susan, this has been an absolutely incredibly fascinating conversation. I feel like this could be an entire podcast dedicated to a whole series on this. And so I'm really grateful for you coming in and I'm sure that as you guys are listening to this conversation, there's going to be a ton of questions that come up and so you can leave us comments on our social media. You can reach Susan on her Instagram. Doctor.susan see. So Dr. Susan see. And she's very active on Instagram and is there's a lot of cool stuff that you have going on right now. Like how can people get involved with your cool stuff.

Yeah. So I am going home to New York the last week of May into June and I'm seeing in person patients because I miss seeing them and so I wanted, I needed a taste of the city. So I'm seeing some patients, Long Island, New York. So if anyone is interested and hears that before then they can contact my office. And then when I get back, I am launching my first group program. So because my niche is burnout, I am going to start with a 21 day live group program called Beauty Sleep to help us get really nourishing sleep to be able to function better, have better energy. And as most of my millennials, they just want to look better too because of course everyone wants to look better. And then after that we're going to do a really advanced three month one where we're going to really work on burnout on every avenue. So yeah, you can find more information on my newsletter on Instagram or my website.

And by the way, I need to be in that group because I need, I need to get better sleep and I would like to be more beauteous.

I know, it's so funny you say that because I said to her the last time I saw her, I was like, how do you do the amount that you do without burning out? She just looked at Me.

It's the glazed over, like, wide eye, like, can't stop, won't stop. Yeah.

No, I'm like, I thought I was the New York hustler. I'm like, you're out competing.

Me, I know Dr. Kane is doing all of the things. Yeah.

But I'm like, you gotta.

You got.

I have to reel her into sometimes. I'm like, all right, lady, you gotta. We gotta get you sleeping, too. I know. Yeah.

Beauty sleep. I'm in. Count me. And so if anyone wants to join me, check out Sue's Instagram. Awesome. You guys have been great. Thank you for being on this episode.

Yeah. Thank you so much. This was such a treat. I just. I was just, like, asking all sorts of questions. It was like a, like, consultation for me.

And I'm so happy to have someone who's, like, really interested because I could see you, like, genuinely wanted to know about it. And that's really amazing because if you are informed and then you have a family member or a friend, I mean, just informing people, even if it doesn't happen to you, you can change someone's life. Totally.

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. How life changing would it be if someone didn't know and then they were able to test for it and everything and finally treat it? So thank you so, so much for being on. This was amazing.

Thank you guys so much for having me. I love being here.