Celebrating 100 Episodes! Growing Through Risk and Change | Ep. 100

Foreign. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to holistic Inner Balance. Today is really super exciting. Right, Hats.

Yes. I'm so excited.

This is our 100th inner podcast episode. How does that even happen?

Like a champagne popping Champagne.

Like, where can you do that thing where you, like, pop your lip? There's no sound over there, like, pulling on her lip. I don't think I can do it either. That was. That was pathetic. I can do a drip sound.

Zoom is muting it. Zoom was muting mine, too.

Oh, really? Yeah.

The power of Zoom. It just thinks it's a background noise.

Zoom is like, keep it classy, y'. All. This is your 100th podcast episode, so.

Oh, my gosh. Can we put in, like, a, like, cheering or something?

Like, soundtrack in the background soundtrack of our celebration. That Zoom is auditing out for us. But in this conversation, Hadley and I are going to talk about what we have learned throughout this process, which is such a great piggyback to the conversation that we were having about my book writing, and Hadley understands my writing process in a way that everybody else thinks is ridiculous and don't understand. So we're gonna have a lot of fun today, and we just want to say thank you so much for being here and being a part of this and growing and learning with us. We're really, really so grateful.

Yes, totally. And I am so grateful to be here. Obviously, I haven't been around for all 100 episodes of the podcast, but I've been around for the past over a year, so that's exciting. And it's been so fun to. Obviously, it's, like, always the best time when I get to talk to Dr. Kane.

Yes.

And the fact that we get the same.

Yeah.

Is the fact that we get to do it on the podcast and for you all has been so exciting, and the feedback that we've been getting, it's. It's just been like. It's just been really, really cool. So thank you. Thank you so much. And of course, if you appreciate the podcast, if you really enjoy listening, if it's been helpful for you in any way, if it's been supportive for you, anyway, we would so appreciate a review, you know, rating and review on Apple podcasts.

We.

It really helps to get the podcast seen. So. So with that being said, let's get into some of these lessons learned. I think podcasting for me has been such a growth experience, especially with you, Dr. Kane, because you are so great at just being like, well, let's just do it. Let's just start right now. Whereas I will, like, over prepare. You know, that's been my mo. But because I've been podcasting with you, and you're like, let's just start right now. Like, let's just come up with this. We'll make an outline, and let's just go. Let's just do it. That's made me so much more confident in so many other areas of my life as well. So I just want to say thank you for that.

Oh, my goodness. And then it feels less contrived, right?

Yes, totally.

That's one thing that's really important to me is the people that I really respect, love, and admire are people who are real in being imperfect. And we live in such a culture that emphasizes perfection. And we see, you know, like, the final draft and miss all of that backstory in that editing. We see, like, the polished, perfect, edited pitch shift draft. You know, like, we have the fade incorrectly or we left on cue. It was wrapped up in time. And so I love that you're willing to just, like, vibe with an authentic podcast. And, like, really, y' all who are listening, we don't edit a lot out. Like, we're pretty. Like, this is how the conversations often actually go. And we laugh and we get, like, kind of emotional, and we sass. And it's just been. It's just been a real joy to have you on it. And you were saying that you haven't been here for all 100 episodes, but in my mind, I was thinking, yeah, but you've been here for all the best episodes.

Oh, I'm gonna cry.

You make it so much more enriching.

Oh, thank you so much. You're so sweet. It's just been. It's just been such a joy. And I think. I think bringing that conversation of perfectionism into it, that's really the biggest thing that we've both. That we were talking about before we started has been such a big learning experience on the podcast. And so we want to bring that to you all and help you to learn from our experience, too, so you don't have to maybe do as much trial and error for yourself. Although, you know, there's so much to be said for just doing the thing. And, you know, you can't. You can't quite learn it to the extent if you're, like, reading it from a book or listening to it from a podcast, sometimes you just have to experience it yourself, and that's how you get the learning. But we're going to talk about that today, and we were just talking about before this Call or before this, before we pressed record, we were talking about how so many of, so much of our culture, of our current world that we live in really takes every single thing that every single person says at face value. Right. That's where like cancel culture comes in. Is like you said this one thing, this one time and so therefore that that's what you believe at all points of your life and you know, then you're a terrible person or whatever. And that's something that I have been terrified of. I've been, you know, a health coach for five, five years, a little over five years now. And something that I've been terrified of is like, what if I say something that I then change my mind about? Like, you're not supposed to say something that you then change your mind about, especially on social media. But even if you're not, you know, even if you don't have a business that's like, you know, audience facing or anything like that, even just putting yourself out there, putting your voice out there, saying what you feel, not being, not feeling like you're allowed to edit, it can be, can be really like shame inducing and you know, obviously can, can keep us from really growing. And so that's kind of what we wanted to bring to you today.

Yeah. As you're listening to this, does this resonate? Do you ever feel like you can't say something or do something or if you interact online, like you can't post something or have an opinion unless you're a thousand percent sure that you can stand by that for the rest of your life and with this fear that, well, I can't change my mind and if I do, like, I really can't express that I've changed my mind because we all have heard that language. Like Hadley, you express this term flip flopper.

Yes, totally. Yeah, that's something I would. I was talking about before, which was like, you know how we talk about politicians who we don't, we tend to say like, oh, they're such a flip flopper, like if they change their mind about something. And I don't know about you guys, but I want a politician who's going to change their mind when they're presented with new information. You know, that seems so bonkers to me that we are like, you have to believe the same thing your entire career as a politician. And same goes for, you know, we're not here to talk about politics, but you know, same goes for just any person if we're holding ourselves to our, to who we used to be or holding Other people to whom they used to be, then we don't have room for growth. Now we do want to also like be take responsibility for what we have said in the past, for what we've done in the past. So that's not to say that like, oh, we should never hold anyone responsible for what they've done or what they've said. Like, that's not what we're saying. Instead, can we come from a place of if I say something that is harmful or offensive or you know, whatever, can I then actually come from a place of like a learner's mindset? Of like, oh, I didn't realize or you know, you know, I have changed my mind on this. And can we come from a place of humility? Because a lot of times the reason we want to be perfect from the get go is because we never want to have to say I'm sorry. And I'm saying this from 100%, from personal experience because I have struggled to be able to say I'm sorry. Even as a kid. When I was, you know, growing up with my like my parents or whatever, it would be sort of like I would just kind of like brush it under the rug instead of saying like, hey, I'm sorry I said that thing. And so that's been a learning experience for me. And growing into this idea or growing into this non perfectionism mindset, you have to also be very willing to admit when you're wrong, sweep up that mistake and not get like into this shame spiral of like, I was wrong and, and that, and therefore I'm a bad person. Right. So I just said a lot of things. What do you have?

I am so I'm, I'm looking down and taking notes on this because you're just like dropping some wise bombs here. And I was just talking to a client of mine just before we met today and she's working on self forgiveness and there's been all of this shame for something that happened. And arguably she was a child. And you know, when we're children, we don't have a lot of resources. We rely on adults to help us make good choices. And there's something that happened that she feels really bad about, she feels really guilty about that. And so that shame, it has held her back from so long. And then when she does something wrong, it feels like there's this entanglement of the behavior, her thoughts around the behavior and who she is as a human being. And so I feel like if that's really difficult for you and I resonate with it very much too. Being given all this sort of overt messaging growing up that if you do bad things, you're a bad person. And so then that sense of identity of who I am and not being congruent with a mindset or a belief system over time, and so that. That feels like an obstacle to cure, is how we orient ourselves around the meaning behind changing and not being perfect. And that's a struggle.

Yeah.

Right.

So it's one thing to say like, oh, don't try to be perfect. Just kind of go. Just kind of like, you do your thing. Don't really, like, care about it or whatever, but the reason that we want to be perfect is because we have that inner shame, that inner belief that we are not good. Right. That we are not good enough. And so that's. I actually something that I do with my clients and sort of the world belief that I hold is that there's not nearly as much morality as we think there is. There's really just like we. We often think like there's like, there's good, bad, right, wrong, black, white, all of these things. And really, you know, obviously, we always talk about nuance on this podcast. It's like there's always the middle ground. Right. But what if. And I do this with food with my clients, where it's like, there is no food that's good or bad. It's just how it makes you feel. The same goes with literally everything in your life. It's not that necessarily. I mean, obviously there are things that are bad, right? Murder, you know, like, there are things.

That are bad things.

But even then we could say, like, there were. There was conditioning, there was like all of these things that were put onto the person and then something happened. You know, the best movies show the, like, show the intricacies of, you know, when something, quote, unquote, bad, wrong happens. There's like all of these things behind. Behind the scenes that are going on. Right. And that's what. That's why we love those kinds of movies is because things aren't black and white. And those are the ones that win the Oscars.

Yeah. Yes.

Right. And so. So can we come to a place, like, for ourselves, of viewing ourselves from a more neutral stance of the. And not. Not like trying to suppress and say, like, I have no regrets, because that's not helpful either. But are there. There are things that. When you think about them, it like that. I call it just like an ickiness feeling like you're out of integrity with yourself, with your values, with what you, what you love when you feel that sensation, that's a really good place to kind of start to dip into or start to kind of like, dip your toes into. Like, okay, why does it feel that way? And can I come to it from a neutral stance of like, okay, if there was someone else who had the exact same background as me, who had the exact same DNA as me, that had the exact same body, the exact same parenting, all of it, would they have been able to do anything different? No, because that's exactly what you did with what you knew with what you had. And so can we come from that place and still take responsibility and know that it doesn't make us a bad person or wrong or, you know, something that we even need to, like, you know, grovel on our knees for? Right. So that's kind of, that's kind of the stance that I take.

Yeah. And it's very trauma informed. We have so much research coming out about the brain and the nervous system and our thoughts, feelings, behaviors and sensations. And what you're talking about is very trauma informed that we're doing the best we can with what we have. And sometimes horrific things happen to us, and as a result of that, we're predisposed to do horrific things. And it doesn't give you a bypass by any means. Like, you're saying we have to own that and take responsibility for that. But I think it's the nuance that I hear that you're bringing to the conversation is this, like, sense of neutrality, of, like, you know what? This is who I am with the resources that I have right now. And as I grow and evolve, I will attain new resources and learn new things. I will shift. And then what. The fruit of that may also shift. And that's okay. It is in all integrity what it is.

Totally. And in order for us to be able to, I mean, I even think of, like, rehabilitation, like, versus the prison system that we currently have in the U.S. at least the only way for us to really change the way we operate and to not do those horrific things anymore is for us to believe that we can change and that we are not stuck in that, like, shame spiral in that, like, this is, you know, I'm a bad person. If we believe that we are a bad person, then we're going to continue doing things that aren't serving us or other people. Right. And so we have to. In order to. If you want to be better, you have to believe that you are not a terrible person. Right.

Yeah. And that reminds me of a Quote that I often say to my patients is, anything that changes is changeable. And I think that's. That's huge, right? So if you have anxiety and sometimes it's 10 out of 10 and in your nervous system, and then other times it's 10 out of 10 in your gut, or then it goes down to three or whatever, anything that changes is changeable. And allowing ourselves to embrace that change and also allowing others to change and evolve can be really life giving and has given us freedom to just show up in our full authenticity in this podcast and have these really real conversations and know that in a year from now, God willing, we're still, like having these amazing conversations that we can reflect back and be like, wow. I don't really agree with what I said there about not being able to meditate on a plane. That's a throwback. Hadley told me to meditate on a plane and I told her, not happening.

You're gonna meditate on a plane at some point.

I'm gonna fly to Barcelona in like two weeks or something. I'm gonna meditate for eight hours and I'm gonna text you. Actually, that's not realistic at all.

No, stick to the nervous system practices. That's better. Meditating nervous system is dysregul. You more dysregulated.

So do the nervous system practice like, Nicole, no, don't do that. I love that. And so I think it's really brave to step out of our zone of comfort. And I think we've talked about this in the conversation before, maybe in a past episode. Remind me if you've. If we've talked about this is the Scott Miller concept. He's a psychologist. And it's this concept of the zone of reliable performance, which is your comfort zone.

Oh, no, I don't think you've told me about this. This is great.

Oh, yes. So when you're in your comfort zone, you can perform reliably. Like, I know how to do this. I know what the outcome will likely be. I feel good and comfortable. I can almost autopilot this. It's like, you know, writing an email versus like writing a paper. So, yeah, I can write an email. And so then when we go outside, outside of that, outside of our comfort zone is where we actually grow and evolve. And Scott Miller calls this the zone of proximal development. And that's where we develop and grow. But what's really interesting about that is that people can't really sustain being out of their comfort zone for that long. Like, if you had to guess had you put me on the spot all the time. So I, like, relish in these moments, and I can ask you questions.

I love it. You always give me the number questions, though, and I'm terrible at guessing.

It is a number. You predicted it. This is a number question. She's gonna do so good, you guys. So if you had to guess, how long. And maybe this is just your experience, but how long do you think it takes for a person outside of their comfort zone to start experiencing signs of stress?

Ooh, okay. This is so good. I'm actually. I really want to talk about this because this is something that I've been seeing a lot. Okay. So I would. Oh, my gosh. Minutes or less.

Yeah.

Yeah. Is it like, them 30 minutes?

Oh, I was too fast. You were gonna get it.

I actually was gonna guess 30 minutes.

Yeah, I know you were. You're brilliant. You were gonna guess that. I saw it. You were like. Your mouth was like. Like. Like you were making 30, and then I was like, Blair, 30.

That's. I'm impressed with myself because usually this is giving me throwbacks to, like, the jelly bean. The days where you had to guess, like, how many jelly beans are in the jar? And I'm like, I don't know.

A million? I won that one.

200? A million? I don't know.

I used to know, like, how to do the math. I'm like, okay, you do the math this way, and then this way, and now I would say a billion. There's jelly beans in this quart jar.

That's so funny.

Wait, what is a court?

Yeah, really, what even is a court? So useless.

So tell me more about what's coming up for you. So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. So I keep seeing, you know, I'm in, like, on all these entrepreneurial circles where people are, like, feel the fear and do it anyway, and they're like, you know, just, like, do everything. Like, do something that scares you every day. Do things that are getting out of your comfort zone. And to an extent, I do agree. And at the same time, if. If you did that too often, you would just dysregulate your nervous system and burn out. And then you would just be, like, down for the count and not be able to do anything. So we have to, like we talked about in the nervous system regulation episode. We. We need that, like, the sort of the pulsation of going into the depth and coming into the. You know, into the light, into the shallow kind of how we will go deep on these conversations, and then we'll start Laughing. Right. And so we need to. We need to go into, like, getting out of our comfort zone and then, like, coming back and allowing ourselves to. Not necessarily. It doesn't have to be rest. Like, I think that's also a little overdone of. Like, you just have to rest. You just have to rest. And then we can get. We can rest too much too. It's really just about that, like, nuance, or not even the nuance, but like the pulsation between the two things. And in, in Sanskrit, in like, you know, if we're, if we talk about, like, yogic philosophy and Vedic philosophy, which is where Ayurveda comes from, that's called Sponda. And so it's. It. It essentially just means that pulsation back and forth, that energy that goes back and forth between two different, like, extremes. It doesn't have to be like, super extreme, but goes back and forth. And that's how we have healing. But. And it's also how we stretch and grow and evolve over time.

Our brains and our hearts. Love that. I was thinking, before you brought up Sponda, I was thinking a heart rate variability, where for those who aren't familiar with heart rate variability, it's a great biofeedback mechanism, which we're going to do an article, not an article, but a conversation on vagus nerve of. And we'll talk more about that. But heart rate variability is the speed change in your heart rate. And more variability is actually generally better. It's more flexible. So you breathe in, your heart rate will speed up, and then as you exhale, your heart rate will slow down. And so you want to have that nice fluid kind of pulsing of your heart. And then also brain waves, like we see brainwaves are kind of like you're describing is like it's pulsing. So like an alpha wave in the brain is very relaxing. It kind of creates that, like, creative, chill, relaxed vibe that we all are craving. And if you look at that, it's in a wave. It's like a sine wave pattern.

Yes, exactly, exactly. And that's same goes for our physical bodies, right? Like, we stress. We stress our physical bodies, and then we recover from that stress. And that's actually healthier than never giving our body stress or giving our bodies too much stress. Right. So with like weightlifting, then we rest after that, otherwise we'll hurt ourselves. But if we rest too much, then we're not going to build muscle, we're not going to build, you know, healthy bones, all of that kind of thing too. So it's everything.

Yeah. So being out of your comfort zone can be really uncomfortable. And so what I want to talk about is get your insight on how to suffer. And here's an example of that. And surprise, surprise is a flying example. Are you ready?

Let's do it. Oh my Gosh, you guys. Dr. Kane travels like flies, like more than, well, other than me. Because I travel more than anyone I know other than me.

Yeah, yeah, true.

And it has this fear of flying, which we're going to get. We're going to get you over that fear. It's much better.

But it's like it's not.

Not gone, not all the way.

I just went to New York and I got to meet my agent, my editor, and it was lovely and wonderful. The flight out was great. It was an easy flight just from Michigan to New York. Just like a little hour and 15 minute kind of thing. On the way back, however, we flew over a giant storm in a little like two seat and two seat, it's like a little guy, little plane and so you could feel everything. And I'm sitting there in the plane and I know there's a storm coming and so I'm like, my nervous system is like, oh, there's a tiger that's coming to eat us. We must run. And so I'm sitting there and as it gets bumpier and bumpier and by the way, I'm like typing in my panic proof book at this point. Like, I'm working on panic and anxiety and then my body starts to go into autonomic arousal. And so I'm like, oh, how interesting. Your heart rate is picking up. And then my hands were exhaling heat. Like, I know it's the weirdest description, but there's no other better way is it was like if you touch them, they were cold to the touch, but they were like dragon's breath of fire flames, like exhaling heat. And I was like, yeah. Oh. And normally what would happen is then like my body would be sharing its experience with my brain and then my brain would be like, oh, no, disaster. And it would jump on board and catastrophize. And so what was really magical and wonderful is that I was like, well, this isn't a reflection of the safety of the plane. This is just my body is sharing and it's uncomfortable and I know it will end. And so the question is, is how to suffer. And so I used a couple of strategies that I felt like were really helpful for me. But I think the difference that I kind of want to pull out in this next conversation and hear what you think is instead of trying to move through suffering and avoid it or cope with it or surprise, suppress it, how do we exist in suffering?

Oh, I love it. Okay, so, yeah, this is a really good question because I think a lot of times we think that we, you know, even in the. More like. I don't want to say advanced. I don't know, like we say, like, move through your emotions, right? Like we say you, you want to like, feel it, to heal it, but we can't have. Yeah, so, so, but a lot of times we do that in a way of like, well, I just have to feel it enough so that I like, so I can get rid of it. Right? So we, we. That's like the goal is to feel it so that we can just like get rid of it.

Still.

Still. That's the goal. And so how can we come to a place of not having that be the goal? So the goal is instead, how can I just experience what I'm experiencing? Experiencing. I had a client who, I remember like, viscerally, when she told me that she liked that it clicked for her because she was like, you know, I always thought that whenever people said, be present, you know, be present with your, you know, with your life, with your emotions, with yourself. She was like, I always thought that that just kind of meant to be present with like the good stuff, right? To like, really, like, soak in the good stuff, really allow herself to feel the happiness, feel the joy, you know, feel the gratitude, you know, soak in the sunset, whatever, all of that stuff, you know, time with your partner. And she was like. And then I realized that actually it means to be present with all of it. And that's actually the like, moment that it becomes. Oh, that's what life is supposed to be, is we're being present within the whole gamut of the human experience and not labeling it as bad or good or whatever. And just being with what is. And making decisions. If, you know, if something doesn't feel good, we can also make decisions to, to. To do something different. You know, we don't have to just wallow in, in whatever, but to just be present with what is at all times is kind of the key. The. The key that unlocks sort of this, because then it's not actually suffering. It's struggling, but it's not suffering. And so, and that's like a distinction that's made in, you know, sort of a lot of like Eastern religions and stuff is that if we aren't, if we don't identify with the emotion. And if we don't also. If we don't identify with it and also don't try to run away from it, then. Then we're not. We're just. We're just in it. It's neutral and it's a struggle, but it's not suffering. It's not feeling like things shouldn't be this way. Does that make sense?

I'm imagining Jack Kornfield and how he would feel about what you're saying, and I think he'd really like it.

I love Jack Kornfield.

Jack, if you're listening, let us know what you think.

And Tara Brock. They partner together a lot.

They both have really good stuff he teaches on. I think it's the book Wise Heart, if that's. If that's correct. There's this exercise called the Boats where he. Hadley, knows this one.

You've mentioned it before, I think, on a previous episode. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, it's so good. Can I mention it again?

Yes, please.

Yes, please. Thank you. So in this exercise, I think it's exactly something maybe more tangible that you. That we can use to kind of apply this wisdom of feel it, to heal it, and how to experience what I'm experiencing and being present with it is that he imagines that you're sitting on this grassy hill and that there's in front of you a stream and there's a current, and the current is taking these boats. And the boats represent thoughts, feelings, sensations, and beliefs that you have. And they could be really painful, or they can be really ugly, or they can actually be really beautiful and lovely and wonderful. And the job that you have is to just simply notice it and allow yourself to observe it as it approaches, as it rises, as it's right in front of you, and then as it fades away and then releasing it once it's passed. And so another image that maybe you resonate with is I always think about, like, sitting on the shore and that the waves are coming in, and then this wave, this. Like, the tide's coming in and this big wave comes, and it floods you, and you're like, I can't breathe. It's flooding you. And you're like. But I know that the current's gonna go back out. So you just, like, wait it out, and you don't try to swim or fight or float to the top. You just, like, just simply just allow the wave to flood over you and then for it to go back out. How. How you like that?

I like it. I like it a lot. Yeah. And so. Because if you were to do the flailing around, that's when it's suffering, right? That's when you're actually, you know, that's when all of the sand gets in your butt crack, and you're just like, right.

Nobody likes sand in their butt crack.

Something that I. I actually like to think about is another. It's all water. Because. Because water is. Is and has always been tied with emotions. Like, in all mythology, it's like, water is emotion. And so this example is also water. So as we're giving these examples, y', all, like, take which one you want, or if you want all three, you know, take. Take whatever. But I like to think of it as I'm in a rushing river, and there's a stick or, like, a branch that's kind of like sticking out, and I am just, like, clinging onto that branch, and the water is rushing and rushing, and I'm like, just like you. Not. Not drowning, but I'm. You know, I'm struggling, I'm suffering. And. And then once I have, you know, just. I've. I've had too much, or. Or I decide to just let go of the branch, then I realize that actually the water isn't going as fast as I thought it was. And I can just float on top of the water, and I just can, like, float down the river. And it's actually a really lovely experience. But because I was holding on to something that wasn't the water, right? That was, like, an expectation that I thought was supposed. How it was supposed to be. And I do this all the time, you guys. Like, oh, my gosh. There are so many times where I'm fighting against what is. Where I'm like, no, this is how I want it to be, though, right? And once I actually let go of that and I go with whatever the emotion is coming up, and then it becomes. Even if it's a really hard emotion to feel, it becomes more easeful, and then it's not. And then I'm not suffering in it.

So you put yourself out there, and there's some periods of growth. You know, there's that zone of proximal development where things are hard and it's like the rushing waves. And like, with this podcast, there's been, you know, challenges and growth points and just continuing to show up, but in a way that you're not holding on to an expectation of who you were, what it's supposed to look like, what direction it's supposed to go, but just allowing yourself to be in that you might then find yourself floating down the river to somewhere that is unexpected and actually quite wonderful.

Totally. Well, and at the same time, that river might be. You might be able to just stand.

Up in the river, which happened in. Did you see Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves? It was, like, real popular back in the 90s.

Or wait, I actually just saw that in June. Yeah, I know. Like the one with. With Kevin Costner. Yeah. And. And it's Snape. Oh, my gosh, what's his name?

Oh, I'll rip your heart out with the spoon guy.

It was so funny to watch because I just think of him as Snape from Harry Potter, but. And so I was like, this is so weird. Snape is so evil.

He's so evil in that.

Yeah, Yeah, I just watched it. So random that I just saw that movie.

Yes, Totally random. It's preparing you for this because that little John or something, he, like, falls in the water, and he's so sure he's drowning, and then they have him stand up, and then they're like, it.

Wasn'T deep at all. Exactly. And so sometimes. Sometimes we are just, like, flowing along in the river. And I see this a lot, you know, with people who are more into, like, the emotional depths and, like, wanting to go deep into it, into the shadow, all of that stuff. But sometimes we can also just stand up. Like, sometimes it's just like, oh, okay. Actually, it's not. It's not so overwhelming. I can just choose this other thing. Right. So what I mean, like, the metaphor for standing up is. I'm not being super clear with this, but the metaphor for just standing up is just deciding to do something different. And then you no longer are in the river of the emotions because you aren't experiencing the exact same thing over and over and over again. So while we can surrender to the river, sometimes we just have to stand up and make a decision that's different from what we've been doing. And then we won't have that river of emotions that keeps happening over and over again also.

Which is what you were, I think, saying earlier is that if we're just trying to put the pedal to the metal and just allow ourselves to suffer unrelenting relentlessly, then we just burn out. And so pulsing it is really valuable where it's like, okay, I'm gonna be in this river for a little bit, maybe 30 minutes, and then I'm gonna stand up and, like, go and sit on the shore and chill for a bit.

Yes, I love that. Oh, my gosh. We've really. We've really gone through this analogy.

Deep, deep. Pun intended. Deep water.

So good.

Yeah.

So, yeah. So to bring it to, like, kind of what we were talking about at the beginning of, like, how can we put our voices out there? How can we. And not necessarily in, like, a podcast format, but, you know, how can we allow ourselves to. Well, and the other thing here is we're not saying that you have to, like, express your opinions all the time, because I think a lot of times people think. Think when they hear, like. Like, you know, let your voice be heard, like, speak your mind, that kind of thing, that they think that they have to then have an opinion about everything. And I actually don't think that that's a thing. Like, I don't think you have to have an opinion about everything. It's okay if you don't. And I used to think that I had to, too. And I would, like, be like, I have to, like, I have to make up my mind about this and have an opinion about it or whatever. And actually, I'm finding that it's a lot. A lot of the times more wise to not have an opinion about everything. But if there's something that you actually really do feel strongly about or. Or even just, like, if you're scared to just talk in general, because a lot of times it's not even about, like, a specific opinion that we have, but it's just like, I don't want to say the wrong thing ever. Then we can come back to this place of, how about we allow ourselves to speak up and then we come back and allow ourselves to not speak up and we don't have to speak our opinion all the time. And then we allow ourselves to come forward, and then we come back into ourselves and we allow ourselves to go rest on the shore, and that's how we grow.

Is there any way that we can apply that to your and my methodology of paper writing? No, justify the way I write. Can you help me?

So Dr. Kane and I were talking about before, before we started this podcast or before we started this episode, we were talking about how the way that both of us write this is so strange that we both do this, because I literally don't know anyone else who writes this way. So we're always taught in school that you write a rough draft, then you go back and you do, like, three edits, right? Like, or however many edits you go through, and you write the edits. Well, Dr. Kane and I, we don't edit. We write it the first time, and we do it the way we want it the first time. Yes.

Because. Oh, no.

So I'm wondering if. Well, for those of you out there who are like, if you. If there's anyone out there that's like, I do the same thing, let us know. Because we don't know anyone else who does it like that. Um, but, you know, I don't know. I don't know a way to justify how we write, but it feels like it might be the opposite.

Where I know should be.

Leaning into the rough draft.

I know, right? Leaning into the rough draft. Maybe this is a growth point for us. Had. I know.

Yes. Well, actually, I will say that when I was in grad school, I learned about, like, perfectionism, and I. That was when I started learning about how to, you know, break this perfectionism pattern that I've had my whole life. And I started writing the. I started doing it where I just, like, didn't care as much. I didn't need it to be perfect the first time. And then I would write the rough draft. But then I actually didn't even. I still just didn't need to edit it.

Nice.

So we might even not need to edit it as much as we think, you know, even if we don't try so. So hard that first go around and getting it out there might even be better than, you know, trying to get it perfect the first time or even trying to edit it three times. Maybe we just need to run through it once, change a couple, like, grammar mistakes or whatever, and then it's good to go. Right. Like, that could be the case, too. And I actually found that, you know, I tried so hard to get good grades in all throughout school, you know, and I. You know, I was such a. Like, I have to get straight A's kind of student. And then in grad school, I was like, wait, I actually. I'm gonna start my own business after this. And it doesn't matter what GPA I get for, like, a. Like, a job after school, so I actually don't need to get all A's. And then I stopped trying so hard, and then I got better grades than I had ever gotten. So, like. So detaching from the outcome is really crucial here, y'. All. Like, you'll do better at things if you don't. If you don't, you know, cling to that branch so hard.

I'm writing that down. Detaching from the outcome, leaning into the rough draft, detaching from that branch because we're going to be making lots more great conversation episodes Here, and they're not going to be perfect. And so maybe we'll just do more where we just, like, hit record and then see what comes out. And you guys can let us know if that's working for you, if you really want us to plan more.

I feel like this is all over the place. Yeah, I don't like it.

I don't like it.

Oh, man. I mean, yeah, we can. We can mix it up for sure. Because I think, you know, we're. We're kind of in.

We're.

We're like, meandering right now. But I think it all relates to each other because once we. When we think about growth, when we think about actually being able to.

Not.

When we think about not having to be perfect the first time, that's the only way that we actually allow ourselves to. To grow, and that's the only way that we can actually have a growth mindset. Like, I used to think that I had a growth mindset of, you know, oh, well, I'm always trying to grow and learn, but I wasn't allowing myself to not be perfect or what I thought of as perfect in that moment. And that's the only way to actually have a growth mindset. And so coming back to, we have to come from that place of. And it's not even like forgiveness necessarily, because forgiveness implies that you did something bad. It's coming from a place of. There was no other way for me to have done that in the past. Right. Like from a place of, I'm doing the best with what I've been given. That was something that my dad always said when I was a kid. He always said, everyone's doing the best they can with what they've been given. Right? And so, so you can. And then you learn from it. So you have to then again take that responsibility, be like, okay, I don't want to do this in the future, so what can I do to make sure that that doesn't happen again? But the only way that we can do that is to accept that it did happen. And mine, kind of. One of my, like, one of my teachers talks about, like, mining your regrets, where you go into the regret and you're like, huh, okay, so I accept it. I, you know, if you. You can call it forgiveness, if you want to call it that, or you can say like, I accept it and don't even label it as bad, wrong, whatever, in the first place. And then. And I don't want to do that in the future. So now I'm going to take steps from here and go forward. Does that make sense?

Totally. I love that. And I like the term mining because usually I think of the term gleaning, and I don't know if people really know what that means.

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you're like.

You're, like, going into the minds. Right? Like, it's like, it's depth work.

Right.

It's like you're going in. You're, like, chipping away at something.

Yeah.

Back up to the light, and then you can go back down into the mine crystals. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Well, congratulations on hundi of the holistic inner balance, my friend.

Yes, you too. Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited. Yes. I hope you guys got so much from this episode. I know it was a little meandery, but I kind of liked it.

I had a lot of fun, and I took a whole page of notes, so it was valuable for me. And so we have an end of one. That vibe.

So good. So good. Yeah. Let us know. Let us know your takeaways. You know, this is the kind of thing that we can really start to take. Take real action on. Right. Is like, oh, okay. So I'm going to now mind my regrets, accept them for what they are, and move. Move forward so that I can share my voice, so that I can grow in what, into whatever way I want to. Like, you know, what I do with my clients is creating a healthier lifestyle, helping them create a healthier lifestyle. And the only way that you can do that is by accepting where you currently are. And so it's the same goes for any area of growth that you want to have, whether it's entrepreneurship, whether it's a project at work, whether it's making your way in your relationship, growth in all aspects of life. We have to come from that beginner's mindset of being okay with making mistakes, accepting them, and then building upon that.

That's brilliant. We're going to leave it on that. Thank you so much for listening. You guys rock.

Yes. We love you so much.

Bye.

Bye.