How to Stop the Vicious Cycle of Anxiety

Talking about anxiety. And I think you're just amazing because you bring both worlds together. You bring the natural medicine world, being a naturopathic physician, and that you also have the background in clinical psychology, so you can you get both both perspectives of treatment. So thank you so much. I'm so glad to connect with you today.

Thank you. I'm really happy to be here. We had such a wonderful conversation last time. And so any opportunity to get to connect with you and just share the amazing information of hope is just such a gift. So thanks for having me here. I agree.

Yes. Wonderful. So will you just tell us a little bit about what brought you to where you are today?

Yeah. I needed to prove to myself that anxiety and depression could actually be something that people could heal from. And so I grew up in a culture where if you feel anxious or you feel depressed, you either buck up or you go to your doctor and you take a pill. And if absolutely necessary, then maybe go to therapy or go to counseling, but that's for the weak people. So very hearty Midwestern 1980s culture. Very ingrained. And ironically, I come from a family culture where everybody is depressed and anxious and they weren't getting better. And so I needed to prove to myself, I needed to know if I could feel better, if I could see what life would be like without this heavy backpack on my shoulders of anxiety and depression and irritability and this cycle that had been passed on through my family. I needed to prove to myself that it could get better. So that was the beginning of why I started to explore clinical psychology and naturopathic medicine in the beginning.

Okay, so from personal history, and I think a lot of us get that. Have that personal journey, too. I think it's like, you know, often with people that go into different types of medicine, it's like, we've been there, we've been in your shoes. We know. And. And I actually also am someone who has the history. And that's why another personal reason I'm so excited to talk with you and share this is, you know, I had panic attacks. Just hit me that out of the blue, I didn't know what was going on. And you do just turn to that, the medication, because you don't know what else to do. And then I actually reacted to the medication, and it just made it so. So like, you know, this bad cycle. And I think when you've had anxiety or panic attacks, you then get in the cycle where you're anxious about being anxious.

Yes.

It plays on it where once you start feeling anxiety it's like, oh, no, am I going back there? So what you're saying is we live in this anxiety, like, where we can't break through. You're just kind of stuck in this anxious cycle.

It could be the chicken or the egg. It can be, I'm afraid of the fear, which actually I appreciate that you bring up because that is one of my primary experiences and anxiety warrior is that I was so afraid of the loss of control that can come from. From panic and anxiety, that sense of a loss of personal power. And while medications for me and for many of my patients have been life saving, and I'm a very big believer in smart pharmacology, is, for me, it wasn't getting to the root of why I felt the way that I felt. And it's kind of like, you break your foot, you want the crutches, but let's also heal the break in the foot. And that wasn't something that I learned or had even heard about until going to graduate school and going to medical school. And so it's like, how do we figure out why you feel the way you feel? And then how do we figure out how to stop that vicious cycle?

Yeah. So where would you tell someone to start?

The first thing is to identify your biography is to start at the beginning. There's a really good book. It's called what Happens to youo, and it's written by Dr. Bruce Perry. And so for anybody who's listening to this, who has anxiety, who has stress or even physical symptoms, this is a really good book because it explains how your biography can become your biology. And so if we start with anxiety, for example, our nervous system is constantly trying to attain homeostasis or equilibrium or balance. And so if we go through adverse events, an adverse event could be a trauma, it could be anything that requires an adaptation from your nervous system. If we go through an aversive event, then our nervous system, it adapts and it changes, and then it stores those changes away in the brain, in different parts of the brain. And so then with respect to those necessary changes, your brain will adapt and it will create a new homeostasis. So let's give a specific example. I have a client, and we'll call her Susie. And Susie grew up in a family where her mom was emotionally unstable, her dad was absent, and her brother was incredibly volatile. And so Susie had to be hypervigilant. She had to notice any attunement of her mom being unwell or her brother being unwell. So she was able to be very Empathic. But then this made her incredibly sensitive to any changes in her environment. She got slapped a label of highly sensitive person. The other way that she attuned is that her nervous system was also much more sensitive to smell. So if there was alcohol on someone's breast, she could detect it from across the room. So this level of hypervigilance caused chemical changes that then set her up to have a hyperactive startle response or a trauma response. And so the anxiety was adaptive. The anxiety protected her so she could respond immediately. But then when she was no longer in that situation, those old programs, those old messages, part of her biography, were now hijacking her. So that's kind of an example of why it's so important to know why you feel the way you feel. What happened to you?

Oh, wow, that's so interesting. So now when you're starting that journey and now Susie's in a different environment, she doesn't need to be as alert. How does she go about starting to reprogram?

Dr. Bessel van der Kolk talks about this quite a lot in the book the Body Keeps Score. And so he and Dr. Bruce Perry have been really the forefront leaders in, in this approach to mental health care. And so we kind of have to approach it from multiple angles where the dominant medical model is really just looking at trying to correct the brain chemistry. And that's with pharmaceuticals and medications, but they're not looking at the other approaches. And so that's why a lot of us will take medications long term, and then they either quit working or we get terrible side effects or we have to increase the dosage. So, so you want to take a multidisciplinary approach. So first of all, maybe there are herbs and remedies or medications, something to try to restore balance to the chemistry of the adrenal glands in the brain. But we also want to take a top down and a bottom up approach. So a top down approach is where we find logic. So the top of the brain, we consider like the cortex of the brain. This is where we analyze and process and rationalize. And so this is going to therapy, this is going to counseling or DBT or a spiritual guide or a coach, somebody that can help you kind of talk through and process what you've experienced. My favorite form of therapy is ego state EMDR because it allows your past parts, your younger selves that are embedded in the different parts of your brain to engage in that top down process to, to logically integrate. Like, hey, past Susie. It's no longer 1993 you are no longer in this household and I know you think you are, but look, it's now it's 2002 as an example and like let's integrate those parts. So that's the top down approach. Okay. And then there's the bottom up approach which is actually retraining the nervous system. So we were talking about how Susie could smell and hear and attune so her nervous system was hyper attuned. And so what we want to do is we want to provide your nervous system with opportunities to retrain itself where it's in a controlled environment. For example, HIIT training can do this. High intensity interval training. Right. So you exercise, you shift your body into a autonomic arousal state. Your heart is racing, your blood pressure increases, your breathing increases, you. And then you're able to slow down, walk, take deep breaths, bring it down. Another example is doing a rock wall which is totally safe if you have a good belay. But it can feel really scary because you look down and you're like holy moly, I'm real high.

Yes.

And so training your nervous system how to have these experiences, these activating experiences, but then doing so in a safe environment where you can feel the fear in a way that is actually safe and corrective. So those are kind of the three approaches. Wow.

Okay, so you're actually doing things that, that train that, like that's okay to feel that fear, that's okay to be afraid really.

Exactly.

That you're. Because you have to get used to that, that fear response. Yeah, because it does. It gets like you have anxiety, you're afraid of the anxiety. Then you, you're just in this where it constantly hypes you up then to now I hear a lot about like, so there's that Apollo, there's a device called Apollo Neuro. There's a couple other different things out there. What do you think about any of those type of things that people are hearing about that, those feedback loops. Do you think any of that helps?

I have an Apollo actually.

Okay, so you do feel like it's valuable?

I think it's interesting. I was actually going to do an article about this in Wired because there are a lot of wearable devices and so I've used several of them. I've used HeartMath biofeedback device. I like that. I've used the Apollo and I've used an Alpha Stim and so the way that I've. They're really not clear in their advertising how the Apollo works, but from my experience is that it's sending stimulation through buzzing or pulsing at different intensities, different rates, and it's stimulating your brain. Get back in the body. Get back in the body. Get back in the body. Kind of like someone is, like, in the here and now, and they're just, like, poking you. And so it can be very grounding. It can get you back in your body. In some cases, it can be fairly hypnotic and therapeutic. In terms of. Is it worth the investment of the $300 plus is. I would probably angle towards maybe saving the money and investing in an alpha stem device instead. And an alpha stim device, for those in your audience who haven't heard of it yet. Is. It's an actual. It sends an alpha wave frequency to the eighth cranial nerve. And so it has pads that you put on your earlobes, and then there's a device button that pushes it up and pushes it down. And when you use it, you'll actually be able to detect real time in the moment, what's happening. Because if it's too high, you'll kind of feel like you're swaying back and forth on a boat, on a ship. But after time, the benefits are quite cumulative. It can decrease pain, which is great for your audience because they're migraine sufferers. It could decrease anxiety and decrease depression. So the devices are interesting, but I don't think that there's like a hammer for all of the nails, you know?

Yes. Yeah, that's what I figured. I figured, you know, there's probably a place for it and read about it and it sounds so interesting, but there's probably, like, that place for it, but not in replace of something else.

Yeah, I like how you said that. A place for it, but not in replace.

Well, that's. I feel like, yeah, there's so many places. We have all these different things that we can put and use as tools, but you still have to sometimes just really do the work, too. Like you're saying, go back and really, you know, deal with some of the trauma maybe that you have, do the reprogramming and do some of the work that it takes in order to. We are looking for a quick fix. A lot of the time I run into, too. It's like, well, you're actually going to. If you don't maybe go for that quick fix all the time, you get the solution that lasts long term rather than just finding something like, even the medications. And I honestly do think the, you know, SSRIs in particular are just. I mean, they are. So I don't over prescribe. Let's just say it, because, I mean, it's like candy, you know, like you're just trying before trying anything else. And that's where I think. And then they're no joke. People react to them. They take a long time to work. There's a lot of side effects. So whenever people have another option to try and to use. So where like, so someone comes and they're saying, you know, how could they get started? Where could they, you know, I know you have different programs. I know there's different ways to work with you.

Thank you for asking that. The first thing that you want to do is you want to learn how to become your own anxiety expert. Because like, what you're saying, Dr. Meg, is that when panic strikes and when anxiety strikes, the solutions right now are either go down the Dr. Google spiral, which typically doesn't get you the results and the answers that you need. And so that could be. I usually tell my clients, stay away from Google, or you schedule a visit with an expert. And that may take days to weeks. And so you need relief, and you need relief quickly, and you need relief that's personalized to your body. So the first thing is you want to become your own anxiety expert. And then the second thing is you want to be surrounded by community that's got your back, people who get it, who can support you. In fact, there's so much clinical literature that's coming out talking about the power of community. In fact, in Bruce Perry's book, what Happened to you, the whole last chapter is dedicated to the importance of having community and how that is so, so neurologically and psychologically protective against pain, depression, mental health, anxiety. And so do that. Find something that works for you. I created a membership because I wanted to create a solution to that problem. And so you guys can check it out by clicking on the link in my bio, but make sure it feels right for you, because I'm not the only one doing that. So explore your options. Get a feel for the vibe, but make sure that. That you're going to reputable sources that will help you get the best information on herbs and homeopathy and counseling techniques and what to do in the moment. Testing that you need to order, what kinds of therapies should you do and what should you look out for to make sure that this practitioner is actually legit and won't do harm, you know, so make sure you do your research. I've got some research for you. Check it out. It's free. And, you know, it's just all about finding the right fit. You can get better.

Yes. Yeah, I know. And just knowing there's hope, too, because I think when you're in that anxious place, it feels so hopeless. It feels like I'm never gonna feel better. I like, you know, especially if you're. You get to that panic point where you're getting panic attacks and it just gets. Feels like you can't get out of it. But. But then when you get to the other side, you really. It's like, wow, this. It was, it was all. I mean, it wouldn't say like it's all in your head because it literally like all the chemical imbalances that are going on. Do you need guidance to get through. To get through that in a healthy way? So can you tell us a little bit more about your membership and kind of what you work on through that in the membership?

It is basically everything that I teach my clients is available to you in the membership. And so, so you go to my website, drnicolecane.com and when you get in the membership, you're going to get training on herbs for anxiety. Like, how do I pick an herb for my type of anxiety? How do I use it? Should I use a tincture, a glycerite, a powder? What company do I get it from? Can I mix them? If so, how. What about for my kids? There's eight types of anxiety. And so, for example, what do I do if it's gut anxiety? If I use something like theanine or inositol, it might make my stomach more upset, but then my mental health feels better. So how do I create solutions that help me as a whole person? We talk about that. We talk about laboratory testing. So people ask, should I do neurotransmitter testing? Should I do food allergy testing? Is it better to look at my adrenals with blood or urine or saliva? And so I teach you about all of that so that you have the answers to solve your own problems. We also have lives, we have Q and A's. You have access to chat me in our private membership group. You get beautiful books and videos. And right now it's actually a dollar. I'm charging a dollar.

Wow.

Yeah.

I mean, you're getting so much information and you're charging a dollar. Well, I think everybody's listening. Just needs to go over and sign up because I think I'll be signing up too.

Nicole. I just can't resist.

That's amazing. It's amazing.

It's been such a hard, especially post pandemic is it's so expensive, your average functional medicine doctor just to start care with them is between 800 and $1,000. And then you get two hours of their time and you still have 10,000 more questions. And it can create a dependency on your helper versus if you can learn like Dr. Meg, you do this, you teach people how to get their lives back. And so I wanted to create a solution that teaches you how to be your own anxiety expert so that you can have solutions the minute anxiety or panic strikes for yourself and your families. And I think a membership is the best way to do that.

That's amazing. Yes. Well, and I had another question come in this, we're totally switching gears here, but that someone said that they have had problems since COVID Is this something that you've seen regularly or have any advice there?

Covid is an inflammatory provocator. It just increases inflammation. And so that's why we see long haul symptoms, is why we see periods getting messed up and headaches amplifying and anxiety and depression amplifying is inflammation, inflammation, inflammation. And also Covid is incredibly traumatic. It's a collective trauma. So it's a big part of our biography. And so if you've been struggling since COVID your nervous system is probably adapted to some sort of change that happened in your life, whether it was a change in sleep patterns or a change in finances or a change in your access to food or a change in your microflora biodiversity because of social distancing. Like there's so many things that happened as a result of COVID and now we're finding that a lot of people just aren't feeling the same. So I hear you. Yes, that's valid. There are answers. The number one thing you can do right now as you're listening to this is identify if you can figure out your sources of inflammation. And getting inflammation down is key. A couple tips for that is Mediterranean food is so much better for inflammation reduction. And so cutting out red meat, focusing on fatty fish, green veggies, brightly colored berries. So that's huge. And then there's an amazing plant which you'll learn about in the membership. It's called Avena sativa. And Avena sativa has been used by herbalists for centuries to actually heal brain tissue called atroporestorative. And so if the blank the brain has undergone inflammation or stress or trauma from medications or viral infections or whatever it is, Avena sativa is actually healing to the brain. I use it all the time in people and it's also anti anxiety and antidepressant, which is a win win, so check that out.